Since the decline of Thundurus is real, what's Clefable's best set in this meta? Should it go back to being physically defensive or should you still run some spdef?
Thundurus is still a huge threat in the tier, one you should definitely prepare for, as it often catches teams off-guard, so you should definitely run SpDef on Clef. It also helps for things like Mega Manectric and Keldeo, which are threats.Since the decline of Thundurus is real, what's Clefable's best set in this meta? Should it go back to being physically defensive or should you still run some spdef?
Just run Naive on Diancie, DS is a great move to have with good coverage.Is there any point in investing into an offensive Suicune's Speed? Particularly if running Tailwind. 85 isn't a particularly common speed stat, so I'm not sure. Also, is Diamond Storm worth considering on a Timid MDiancie, purely as an alternative to a (notably not-existing) Special Rock move, considering its high BP and MDiancie's naturally high Atk stat? Or is special coverage preferable to a weakened STAB physical move :?
Thundurus is still a huge threat in the tier, one you should definitely prepare for, as it often catches teams off-guard, so you should definitely run SpDef on Clef. It also helps for things like Mega Manectric and Keldeo, which are threats.
The Clefable analysis thread recommends a spread of 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD Calm Nature to have a 94.1% chance of avoiding a 2HKO from Mega Lopunny and take on other physical mons better, while also being able to take on mons like LO Thundy.
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 179-212 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- 75% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aggron had Rock Polish, a higher attack stat and actually passable defences. Even in RU Dragon Dance is considered awful, and I honestly don't see how Rock Head substantially changes it to such a degree where it's suddenly viable. It's still easily worn down, still easy to deal with and still outclassed. By the time you've Dragon Danced with... just about any better DDers which there are a lot of in OU, you aren't exactly missing the power of head smash.
Recoil-less Head Smash is it's one gimmick, and it's not a very good one. Definitely not enough to get past it's other problems.
I'd make the Counter argument Tyrantrum benefits more from Rock Head because of Head Smash's obscene power: Head Smash hits hard enough that it essentially eliminates the need for significant coverage.
With STAB, Head Smash reaches 225 power. Unless the target is resisting that and weak to the Fang move (97.5 Strong Jaw neutral fang vs 112.5 resisted Head Smash), there's no reason not to click Head Smash. The main resistors Tyrantrum would have to hit would be Steels that aren't hit SE by Earthquake (essentially, things tanking Edgequake), which includes Ferrothorn (4x Weak to Fire Fang anyway), Excadrill, Chesnaught and Breloom (though he wasn't beating the former anyway, and the latter still hates Head Smash)
0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 150-176 (49 - 57.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 166-198 (43.6 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 170-204 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 270-320 (103.4 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Losing power on coverage moves isn't as big a deal when spamming Head Smash and the occasional Earthquake almost completely mitigates the need for coverage in the first place. At most, he'll use Fire Fang or Ice Fang for 4x targets like Ferro or Garchomp (Neutrality means Boosted Head Smash suffices against Lando-T most of the time).
Tyrantrum obviously isn't faster than Aggron with Rock Polish, but checking the calculator, +1 Jolly w/ Max Speed (397) is still faster than Positive Base 130's, which I'd say is about as fast as he could ask considering it'd be DD instead. The flaw in the Aggron comparison is that using Rock Polish as the boosting move mitigates Speed issues, but doesn't solve the fact that, unboosted Base 110 Attack won't get him that far. If Tyrantrum has any niche, it's going to involve something to boost, be it DD or a Band for Wallbreaking. If we're ranking Mega Tyranitar, I don't see why we can't rank Tyrantrum, who has the exact same speed tier, achieves HIGHER damage output with his main STAB, and doesn't cost your team the Mega slot, meaning he can Wallbreak or punch holes for cleaners/sweepers like Altaria or Metagross, if not just shred Defensive cores with something like Gardevoir.
I won't deny there's probably hints of new toy syndrome, but in the context of OU, I feel Rock Head is a genuine improvement for Tyrantrum over Strong Jaw. If nothing else, a Wallbreaker that can do this
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 237-279 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Is something Stall can't leave unaccounted for, whether or not it prepares specifically for it. And with Stall (from what I've heard) being arguably the most common playstyle higher up the ladder, those numbers at least are looking pretty terrifying.
The above discussion about Clefable's spread got me thinking, what are people finding best works for unaware sets right now? I never really see an agreed spread for spdef unaware and the analysis only covers a def bold spread. It's such a versatile mon and loves that Greninja is gone. Does the Magic guard spread transfer with leftovers or do people have to go full spdef to check thundurus due to hazard damage? Thundurus, TG RD mana and mega man are my top concerns but if I could still account for Lati that'd be ace.
Also from personal experience, mega gyarados is amazing against all play styles right now. It's incredibly consistent and loves having crunch.
Hydreigon is really damn good in this meta; arguably replacing Greninja as the new balance playstyle destroyer to a lesser extent. Just about everything not a fairy or steel type or named Chansey / blissey is absolutely obliterated by a modest Draco meteor, and most steel types are hit by earth power. Even the standard 96+ SpDef clefable is 2HKOed by flash cannon, which is pretty damn nice. Personally, I like using superpower over earth power for a harder hit on Tyranitar and ferrothorn, the latter which might be finished off by a dark pulse afterwards. Sure, it's speed is /ok/ but once it's inside and you can predict correctly it will deal heavy damage.I have recently been running LO Hydreigon in OU. It's doing really well, but I wouldn't mind an outside opinion.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 16 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Flash Cannon
-Dark Pulse
-Earth Power
How does this set fit in the meta? Outspeeds max speed Adamant Kyurem-B which is just a precaution, even though most run 200 or so speed. Rest goes in Special Attack with enough left over to hit a Life Orb HP number and the rest in Defense.
How effective is Hydreigon in general in the current meta?
I have recently been running LO Hydreigon in OU. It's doing really well, but I wouldn't mind an outside opinion.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 16 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Flash Cannon
-Dark Pulse
-Earth Power
How does this set fit in the meta? Outspeeds max speed Adamant Kyurem-B which is just a precaution, even though most run 200 or so speed. Rest goes in Special Attack with enough left over to hit a Life Orb HP number and the rest in Defense.
How effective is Hydreigon in general in the current meta?
Tyrantrum will not be BL2 at all because there are plenty of rock resists in RU to put it far away from ban-worthy. I think it'll be like D or C- in OU tho since it works as a Mega T-tar substituteg
you could probably swap Earth power for fireBlast or Superpower
Hydreigon fairly solid in UU i ran a Volt turn core with Raikou M beedrill and Hydreigon as the main 3 works very well
Rock head Tyrantrum will probably be pushed to BL 2 or UU its now a somewhat reliable stab(why game freak must rocks moves not 100%) its just amazing power coming from that base attack and access to DD
itll be a nice Pokemon to use even with a scarf plus he got Outrage in ORAS
Stuff about Strong Jaw and Fire Fang
I'd say that Tyrantrum's best potential sets will probably be Choice Band and Rock Polish. Choice Band is the one I'm looking forward to the most because it's so simple. Don't overthink it, just come in and spam Head Smash. Even bulky resists like Ferrothorn are losing a third or more of their health to Choice Band Head Smash, so if they're not careful, they might only be able to switch in once before they get 2HKOed the next time. That, or you could slam Ferrothorn with Fire Fang or Superpower. Switching into Choice Band Tyrantrum is like playing Russian Roulette, and if you lose the guessing game, you're probably going to lose something every time Tyrantrum takes the field.
Rock Polish looks decent on paper because the extra speed is so useful against offensive teams. Unlike Aggron, Tyrantrum actually has enough speed to run an Adamant nature and still outspeed even Scarf Landorus-T (Jolly beats even Scarf Latios), whereas Aggron has to run Jolly just to beat most of the fast Megas at +2 and still loses to Timid MegaZam/Jolly MegaDactyl. The raw power of Head Smash is enough to terrorize many frailer teams; even Keldeo is taking up to ~70% from LO Head Smash after Stealth Rock. The main problems I see with this set is the difficultly setting up on offensive teams with so many weaknesses and such low special bulk, vulnerability to quicker Scarf users if you're running Adamant, and vulnerability to Sableye's initial Prankster Will-O-Wisp and Thundurus/Klefki's Prankster Thunder Waves if you're not running Lum Berry (doing so cuts into your power). By contrast, the Choice Band set literally just comes in and throws Head Smash around, which in my opinion makes it easier to use and do massive damage with.
Not too mention the rampant Mach punches and bullet punches. tyrantrum seems to serve as a rampardos that gave up it's strength for a little bulk and speed, but it's damage output is equally hampered by it's weaknesses.I'd agree with the CB set. The obvious comparison is to another recent toy in Specs Dragalge, where it's just got good typing and really spammable hard-hitting STABs. Dragon Dance seems eminently underwhelming and I don't see how it's getting around the stuff that beats the other good DDers in the tier.
Talonflame has always been high in usage, even if it has gone up a little bit more recently. The main advantage for Tyrantrum right now is the Will-O-Wisp set you mentioned is losing popularity due to the existence of Mega Sableye, meaning Tyrantrum hardly has to worry about taking a Wisp from Talonflame.With a lot of new megas that can't take Birdspam like Gallade, Sceptile, Beedrill and Lopunny as well as the rise of Chesnaught, Talonflame must have risen in usage. I don't have the usage stats, but I can assume that much. Wouldn't this make Tyrantrum even better in OU, as it gets a free switch and turn of setup on all Tflame sets except Will-O-Wisp, and Lum DD sets would stop it 100%
Talonflame has always been high in usage, even if it has gone up a little bit more recently. The main advantage for Tyrantrum right now is the Will-O-Wisp set you mentioned is losing popularity due to the existence of Mega Sableye, meaning Tyrantrum hardly has to worry about taking a Wisp from Talonflame.
Oh, yeah, of course, Wisp is still a factor, don't get me wrong, I was just talking about how Tyrantrum doesn't have to worry as much about getting Will-O-Wisped by Talonflame SPECIFICALLY anymore.Well he'll have to worry about it from Sableye though xD so the threat should still be there, if not MEye you have Rotom-W which is just as rampant.
Yeah, it is quite rare for WoW TFlame but originally I said it was the only set that could possibly stop TyrantrumOh, yeah, of course, Wisp is still a factor, don't get me wrong, I was just talking about how Tyrantrum doesn't have to worry as much about getting Will-O-Wisped by Talonflame SPECIFICALLY anymore.
While true, Mega'd Sableye doesn't outspeed, so it's much harder pressed to Wisp Tyrantrum. Sableye still only checks Tyrantrum with his Prankster turns.Well he'll have to worry about it from Sableye though xD so the threat should still be there, if not MEye you have Rotom-W which is just as rampant.
Any good ideas for teammates for CB TTrum? Back in early XY I used him alongside Char Y with surprisingly strong results.
Also, when does rock head become legal?