If you can beat it then what's the problem, why are you complaining about it?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
- Start date
- Status
Complaining doesn't mean I think it's broken sir. Let me elaborate. No, mega swampert isn't broken. I never said it was.
Let me give you an example:
Say I have a 50/50 win rate against steel. I could amend this with a powerful wall breaker like mega Hera. However, if I did that, it would leave me weaker against multiple other types. It's not that I don't have access to an easier time against steel. I just choose not to use it in order strengthen my team against more types.
Now the reason I'm arguing with you, is because while I don't think swampert is broken , I don't appreciate people coming in with suggestions like "you can use accelgor" and acting like the thing I'm complaining about is easy to counter.
Let me give you an example:
Say I have a 50/50 win rate against steel. I could amend this with a powerful wall breaker like mega Hera. However, if I did that, it would leave me weaker against multiple other types. It's not that I don't have access to an easier time against steel. I just choose not to use it in order strengthen my team against more types.
Now the reason I'm arguing with you, is because while I don't think swampert is broken , I don't appreciate people coming in with suggestions like "you can use accelgor" and acting like the thing I'm complaining about is easy to counter.
Last edited:
Can you guys just ban Char x already? Seriously, against fire, electric completely loses to volc and char x, 2 sweepers that can destoy electric, bug, grass, and somewhat steel. Also, stop acting like flying loses to electric without char x. You have Lando, Zapdos, Thundurus-Incarnite, and Mega Altaria. Char X limits what i have on my team, as i have to make a specific pokemon to counter it. Is that how you want me to make my team? Just to counter Char x, and volc if its mono fire?
Char X: Ban
Kyu-w: Ban
Skymin: Ban
Mega Sableye: Ban
Zekrom: If you guys dont want to ban the above, then unban this thing. And no, i dont want Zekrom unbanned, so ban those op-mons above dammit.
Char X: Ban
Kyu-w: Ban
Skymin: Ban
Mega Sableye: Ban
Zekrom: If you guys dont want to ban the above, then unban this thing. And no, i dont want Zekrom unbanned, so ban those op-mons above dammit.
Last edited:
[sarcasm]Right? Only gay people should fight for gay rights. Straight people should be uninvolved because the problems of gay people doesn't concern them.[/sarcasm]
Nah, man. He doesn't have to personally struggle with it to notice that Mega-Swampert can be a problem. I don't really have a problem with Swampert either, I don't see it ripping through every team, and it doesn't have a set up move or a recovery to make it that much more threatening and annoying. Those Rain-Boosted Waterfalls sure do hurt, though. Anyhow, I just don't think that shifting your attention to how well Zane handles Mega-Swampert is the best way to make him concede his point.
As for the other things being discussed... I'm still on the fence with what I feel for them.
Kyurem-W & Shaymin-S: Do not ban Idk...
Yeeeaahhhh, what the heck am I on? These are Pokemon that belong in Ubers. They can just.. MURDER an entire team by themselves, given the right match-up, but still, I don't see Ice or Grass at defending a top 10 spot at all. Doesn't that literally show that it's not as broken as we think? Or is everyone conveniently running teams that counter Kyurem-W and Skymin?
Mega Sableye: Ban on Dark
Lol, Ghost needs all the help it can get. No one has even gotten Platinum on CCGh1 (inb4 Kammi pulls through) let alone have a Ghost user sitting at the top. Dark is pretty solid without it. I don't really fancy the idea of giving a monster a compatible weapon.
Mega-Gallade: Ban on Psychic
Plsss. 4MSS, weak priority, no reliable recovery, prone to RK, lack of support on Fighting. Most of the time, it's sweep now or a Pokemon dies on your side of the team. Nyeh. Psychic too bulkeh; can compliment Gallade-Mega really well.
Mega-Medicham: Ban on Psychic
Medicham's at that iffy 100 base speed with less than stellar bulk. I feel most teams can RK that reliably, however, it does mow through A LOT OF THINGS. Even resisted hits are power. Like Gallade, easier to deal with on Fighting over Psychic.
Zekrom: Lol
No they're staying unbanned. Charizard-X, Kyurem-W, and Skymin doesn't need to be banned rather I have experience with all of them. Kyurem-W is very beneficial only on Ice Monotypes and it assists in giving them a boost. Charizard-X doesn't need to be banned considering there's many Scarf users that outspeed it also Stealth Rock exists a lot in monotype. Zard-X is good but its not broken/OP. I still have yet to really see a valid explanation upon your reasoning on all 3 of them to be banned. Skymin ( unless Skymin runs Scarf but it'll have to be forced to switch out against a pokemon that it can't stand a chance against it ) doesn't need a ban often times assisting Grass mons. Shaymin isn't OP either and what makes it annoying is only Air Slash Serene Grace often spamming it complimented by speed. Pretty much some you listed can be either countered or have many similar checks to it.
Kyurem-W is a Pokemon that Ice-types need to rely on. You're pretty much outmatched by Steel types but it knows some Fire attacks to at least give ice types a fighting chance. You declaring them to be banned, are just hurting Grass and Ice monos. You have other mons to worry about instead of them like Mega Metagross being considered for ban along with Mega Gallade. You just need Stealth Rock as well. All the above pokemon you mentioned aren't even ready to be banned yet. Skymin and Kyurem-W, you're just hurting Grass and Ice monotypes and it'll clearly add far more usage on other annoying monos. You just need to prepare yourself for them. I just don't see any issue on why they should leave. Zard-X, many players from what I saw now are prepared for it. Zekrom will stay banned as well~
Last edited:
Are you high right now? You dont even play electric, and u dont even know how badly kyu-w, char x, and mega sableye destroy electric. You dont know the feeling of getting swept by them. You unban skymin and kyu-w, but not zekrom. "Oh, dont unban more ubers" Then ban these current ubers like wtf you smogon people make no sense at all. "Oh just play around it" You want me to cteam char x and kyu-w? Is that what ur saying? You want me to sacrafice 3 pokemon to kill char x, and after that, most likely i lost anyway? You want me to battle Volc and Char x from mono fire, both of which are huge threats to electric? Impossible to win. Sure i can play around them, but what is the point in doing that if im just gonna lose. Think please. Use common sense. Do you know what Kyu-W does to electric? Literally impossible to beat unless i use a SPECIFIC set to counter it, which will still cost me 2-3 pokemon. Earth Power turboblaze? Like plz, it gets rid of my sturdy magnezone and rotom. "oh just go into zapdos or thundurus" no, one wrong predict and i lose. Char x, pshh, if i dont have sturdy magnezone anymore, then gg i get swept. How does magnezone's sturdy break? Rocks. "Just go into zapdos and defog" No, what if i cant get a perfect timing to go into zapdos and defog? What if they are already at a +1 Char X that can ohko zapdos before i even get a chance to defog? And if they have volc too(fighting mono fire), then most likely its ogre. I either need to use magnezone to kill char x, but get swept by volc or the other way around. Or i can get lucky with discharge para on volc, but thats only relying on hax. And dont forget Kyu-w can destroy ground and grass as well(and maybe some other types), and Char x can destroy bug, grass, maybe steel as well. Mega Sableye can just sweep if u dont crit basically. Skymin is so op with earth power, air slash, seed flare. I mean, grass just got serperior contrary, u can ban these ubers now.
Last edited:
I'm not sure what I'm arguing about anymore :L
I guess this is my point. Mega Swampert is not broken. It is beatable. Lots of stuff on just about every (if not every) type can outspeed and KO. I can't see many (if any) types having to sacrifice more then one Pokemon (at the most) to deal with it and many can simply KO it without losing a Pokemon. I'm not sure why people are complaining about it. Yes it's attacks are pretty powerful, but then again SD Mega Scizor can be annoying too. SD boosts its attacks more than Rain boosts Waterfall and takes the same amount of turns to set up. If you really struggle with it, maybe you need to juggle your team a bit. Mega Swampert is not really a big threat, it's just another decently powerful Pokemon. Mega Gyarados is better on water imo, as it gets D-Dance, slightly better overall bulk, and higher attack as well. I am now confused about what the problem is, so I think I'm gonna stop posting about Mega Swampert.
No need to act rude on here cause this is just a discussion. Anyway, I specialize in Electric-types first of all so I know the ins and outs of using the type. You're so focused on "Electric" types so much that you're missing the point in them getting banned. Them dominating over one type we wont consider banning. It has to be something like Talonflame destroying 4 or 5 monotypes. Something like that to be banned. I don't really have an issue with Kyurem-W and I rarely have an issue with Zard-X cause nowadays, we're all prepared for it because of Generic Flying. I know how to bypass them considering I use gimmick sets and set up before they're even out on the field so please don't tell me when that I'm high when you don't make teams that'll adapt to the mons that's countering your team. I have no problem with them while I'm using Electric-types. How about you focus more on the other types instead of just one type and make changes adapting to your current issue. You need to talk about why they should be banned and not just towards one type. They don't have too much of an impact on the metagame. Otherwise we'd consider banning them a while ago if you thought of that.
Last edited:
Okay like you said, anything in monotype is counterable if you just think outside the box. I fail to see how this doesn't work with with shaymin sky. Fighting is LOADED with priority, and like boss said try an inner focus lucario.
Kyurem-W is simply just a strong pokemon, and it gives the Ice type coverage that it needs to have a chance against other types. Don't ban.
Skymin is just a monster that causes flinches that change games. It's not as simple as "bring an inner focus pokemon" because nothing stops skymin from simply switching on that one mon and coming back later in the match to flinch once again. People keep arguing that grass needs help like ice, but how healthy for the metagame is it really if that help is coming from a form of hax with 60% chance of occuring and leaves the victim absolutely helpless if it does?
Skymin is just a monster that causes flinches that change games. It's not as simple as "bring an inner focus pokemon" because nothing stops skymin from simply switching on that one mon and coming back later in the match to flinch once again. People keep arguing that grass needs help like ice, but how healthy for the metagame is it really if that help is coming from a form of hax with 60% chance of occuring and leaves the victim absolutely helpless if it does?
I have some experience with mono fighting because i used it in the core challenge, and before you say "Oh you have only used it abit, so you dont know anything about it". Technically you are right, i only used it for abit, and got Gold Rank,mind you,so i think i know what im talking about. Anyway lets get to my arugment on banning M-Gallade and Skymin: If you have gone to the point of using Inner Focus to counter skymin, it means that thing is really a problem. Also, i think M-Gallade is overpowered as fuck but its one of the few pokemon that can deal with skymin. Terrakion, Cobalion and Lucario if i recall are the only mons on fighting that can take a hit from air slash. Terrakion can be dealt with Ferrothorn/M-Venusaur and is OHKOd by seed flare. Breloom can put cobalion asleep and take it out/can switch into skymin and kill it.
That leaves us Lucario. Lucario is OHKOd by Earth Power and dealt with by breloom. And none of the above can switch into it, therefore meaning they are NOT counters.
After 1 SD Mega Gallade can OHKO anything really.
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 292-345 (87.4 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 496-588 (129.8 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 374-442 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 374-440 (97.3 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 554-654 (137.1 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It is true that with Close Combat it is weak to priority but that doesnt mean Deoxys-A isnt broken, right? It IS broken, however if skymin stays it needs to stay otherwise skymin just bashes through fighting like its nobodies business.
too lazy;didnt read, BAN M-Gallade,but keep it if Skymin stays.
I hope i didnt make a shitty post with useless comments, but im not great with speeches or essays... Have an awesome day~
That leaves us Lucario. Lucario is OHKOd by Earth Power and dealt with by breloom. And none of the above can switch into it, therefore meaning they are NOT counters.
After 1 SD Mega Gallade can OHKO anything really.
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 292-345 (87.4 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 496-588 (129.8 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 374-442 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 374-440 (97.3 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 554-654 (137.1 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It is true that with Close Combat it is weak to priority but that doesnt mean Deoxys-A isnt broken, right? It IS broken, however if skymin stays it needs to stay otherwise skymin just bashes through fighting like its nobodies business.
too lazy;didnt read, BAN M-Gallade,but keep it if Skymin stays.
I hope i didnt make a shitty post with useless comments, but im not great with speeches or essays... Have an awesome day~
Ok I'm going to admit i've seen alot of wierd stuff and whatnot about banning 1/2 the metagame but this is what I shall say.
Charizard x: Ok This thing came up and I will say this, no matter how much we hate it it's not going to get banned since 1/2 the world uses it and claims it's not op because of that. Anyways the defensive set can seem unkillable and the offensive set has insane sweeping potential in ou. When you couple this with how versatile charizard is considering you don't even know if it's y or x before it megas it can easily get a free turn. However, the dragon dance set can be crippled with rocks and might not get anywhere after that. I will say this though, types like electric have an incredibly hard time since pokes of this type either can't do enough damage or can't take a hit. In the end you're going to need to sack 1 or 2 pokes just to get it paralyzed. However, many other types can handle it decently. I will say this poke is ban worthy but it's not going to be banned because some noob is going to say that rocks will solve everything although it comes on teams that can support it and some flying user will say a completely biased opinion of how it only is op against like 4 types even though he sweeps every game with it.
Shaymin-s: To start off I will say that there have been many players that have done good without s-s and to be completely honest, the player I consider best at this type doesn't even need it. Shaymin-s probably causes the most rages in the game considering it has an insane speed stat with serene grace air slash, decent bulk, and seed flare which can destroy walls with a -2 sp defense drop. Not only this but our (unneeded) saviour doesn't seem as necessary anymore with contrary serperior appearing on the field. Not only this but it was never actually needed..if you think about it the only thing it adds to grass to beat teams is a flinching move...that's basically it. And yet this rage causing..thing (seriously what is it) can not only cause games to end in rq's and spam but can also decimate types such as fighting where many pokes can't take an air slash along with many other types that lose simply because of a flinch (#legitstrats #nohax). Also I saw talk of fighting just using priority, but to be completely fair 100/75 bulk is pretty decent and many come with a sub. I honestly think it should be banned.
Kyurem-white: I will say it's not needed. I will also say I won tours on main with ice that doesn't have it. I will also say ice was good before it came. But no matter what opinion I give people will say ice absolutely needs it. I will say there are too many threats around like mega gallade and metagross to ban this right now but it's a thought.
Mega gallade: Ok this thing comes with a base 110 speed...base 165 attack...an amazing boosting move...along with great coverage to beat majority of walls with knock off/ice punch/cc. I will say mega gallade is indeed op and is just asking for a sweep. Not only this but it's part psychic, this means it gets amazing support with pokes that can use wish and heal bell along with ways to cover all of it's weaknesses. The other type it's on is fighting which is basically all offensive pressure, although it doesn't get as much support with type coverage and keeping gallade healthy it has pokes that can without a doubt break any wall that might keep gallade from a sweep and can easily find it a spot on the team. Overall I say it deserves the ban.
Mega Metagross: So it has tough claws to boost it's stab, an already insane attack alongside amazing bulk. And 2 of the best types in the game. I'm not totally sure why this isn't banned yet... To start off types such as fairy, ice, rock, and poison while also being a large threat for most other types. Not only this but steel is clearly the best or 2nd best type in the game and psychic is close after, they both give megagross crazy support with pokes that can easily take all of megagross's weaknesses while also providing amazing pokemon to form offensive cores with. To be completely honest the only valid argument I'd seen was that it was one of the only checks to landorus-i with protect+ice punch, and even that can easily be argued against considering it's mono steel.
Overall, I realize that some kid is going to argue against K-w and S-s because they're on crappy types but to be completely honest they can completely wreck types that they play and grass now has serperior to fill the place of s-s, also mega metagross and mega gallade are without a doubt 2 of the greatest oras megas and I think they're too much for this metagame.
Also for those who say s-s should stay, you only use it for flinch hax so stfu
Charizard x: Ok This thing came up and I will say this, no matter how much we hate it it's not going to get banned since 1/2 the world uses it and claims it's not op because of that. Anyways the defensive set can seem unkillable and the offensive set has insane sweeping potential in ou. When you couple this with how versatile charizard is considering you don't even know if it's y or x before it megas it can easily get a free turn. However, the dragon dance set can be crippled with rocks and might not get anywhere after that. I will say this though, types like electric have an incredibly hard time since pokes of this type either can't do enough damage or can't take a hit. In the end you're going to need to sack 1 or 2 pokes just to get it paralyzed. However, many other types can handle it decently. I will say this poke is ban worthy but it's not going to be banned because some noob is going to say that rocks will solve everything although it comes on teams that can support it and some flying user will say a completely biased opinion of how it only is op against like 4 types even though he sweeps every game with it.
Shaymin-s: To start off I will say that there have been many players that have done good without s-s and to be completely honest, the player I consider best at this type doesn't even need it. Shaymin-s probably causes the most rages in the game considering it has an insane speed stat with serene grace air slash, decent bulk, and seed flare which can destroy walls with a -2 sp defense drop. Not only this but our (unneeded) saviour doesn't seem as necessary anymore with contrary serperior appearing on the field. Not only this but it was never actually needed..if you think about it the only thing it adds to grass to beat teams is a flinching move...that's basically it. And yet this rage causing..thing (seriously what is it) can not only cause games to end in rq's and spam but can also decimate types such as fighting where many pokes can't take an air slash along with many other types that lose simply because of a flinch (#legitstrats #nohax). Also I saw talk of fighting just using priority, but to be completely fair 100/75 bulk is pretty decent and many come with a sub. I honestly think it should be banned.
Kyurem-white: I will say it's not needed. I will also say I won tours on main with ice that doesn't have it. I will also say ice was good before it came. But no matter what opinion I give people will say ice absolutely needs it. I will say there are too many threats around like mega gallade and metagross to ban this right now but it's a thought.
Mega gallade: Ok this thing comes with a base 110 speed...base 165 attack...an amazing boosting move...along with great coverage to beat majority of walls with knock off/ice punch/cc. I will say mega gallade is indeed op and is just asking for a sweep. Not only this but it's part psychic, this means it gets amazing support with pokes that can use wish and heal bell along with ways to cover all of it's weaknesses. The other type it's on is fighting which is basically all offensive pressure, although it doesn't get as much support with type coverage and keeping gallade healthy it has pokes that can without a doubt break any wall that might keep gallade from a sweep and can easily find it a spot on the team. Overall I say it deserves the ban.
Mega Metagross: So it has tough claws to boost it's stab, an already insane attack alongside amazing bulk. And 2 of the best types in the game. I'm not totally sure why this isn't banned yet... To start off types such as fairy, ice, rock, and poison while also being a large threat for most other types. Not only this but steel is clearly the best or 2nd best type in the game and psychic is close after, they both give megagross crazy support with pokes that can easily take all of megagross's weaknesses while also providing amazing pokemon to form offensive cores with. To be completely honest the only valid argument I'd seen was that it was one of the only checks to landorus-i with protect+ice punch, and even that can easily be argued against considering it's mono steel.
Overall, I realize that some kid is going to argue against K-w and S-s because they're on crappy types but to be completely honest they can completely wreck types that they play and grass now has serperior to fill the place of s-s, also mega metagross and mega gallade are without a doubt 2 of the greatest oras megas and I think they're too much for this metagame.
Also for those who say s-s should stay, you only use it for flinch hax so stfu
Hi. Us "smogon people" run these forums. Please avoid this kind of banter going forward in your arguments. It's not conducive to making a point. It just makes you look frosty af.
This will be my second post as I feel obligated to apologize for my colleague Apples' churlish and surly behavior.
It is poppycock!
As a humble electric user I must agree that at times our lot may appear deplorable and our path to victory improbable.
However, despite these aversions Hax is always there to lift us out of the darkness and guide our way.
unbanning zekrom or banning char x, kyu-w, sableye-mega, etc will only anger the hax gods! Are they not enough for us? We should avoid this lest we bite the hands from which we and all electric user are fed and they abandon us.
The banter apples presented has no place in our conversation so I humbly ask him to avoid using this language in the future.
~Tesla
It is poppycock!
As a humble electric user I must agree that at times our lot may appear deplorable and our path to victory improbable.
However, despite these aversions Hax is always there to lift us out of the darkness and guide our way.
unbanning zekrom or banning char x, kyu-w, sableye-mega, etc will only anger the hax gods! Are they not enough for us? We should avoid this lest we bite the hands from which we and all electric user are fed and they abandon us.
The banter apples presented has no place in our conversation so I humbly ask him to avoid using this language in the future.
~Tesla
Senpai Tesla im sowwy :(
Something you're ignoring with this is that you have to compare the viability of the counter with what you would run otherwise. For example, I don't really consider Lucario to be that great on Fighting because it has a low speed stat, and is frail as fuck. It has a small niche there, sure, I'll acknowledge that, but why run that when Scarf Terrakion and Mega Gallade can both kill Skymin too, and save you a team slot for something fast or bulky like a Keldeo or a Conkeldurr or a Cobalion. Also, what does Lucario have to kill it with reliability? I can think of a Lucario set built specifically to kill off Grass running Vacuum Wave/CC, Hidden Power Ice, Psychic and filler (maybe Stone Edge, that hits Skymin too). Regarding the fact that Skymin can 2HKO you with Air Slash, or (potentially) OHKO with Earth Power, you're likely going to have to sack something just to bring it in, so you're still losing team members regardless. Also, Lucario is, for the most part, inferior to Infernape. You could run both, but again, you'd have to consider what you'd be losing on your team to run an extra Skymin check and compare that to what you gain.
252 SpA Lucario Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 117-140 (32.1 - 38.4%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO
Alright, you got me here. Psychic will have higher output than Flamethrower on Mega Venusaur however, those of you who run Flare Blitz have a larger chance to 2HKO. Also, while it's not an argument and more of a general trend I've seen, Grass players send in their un-mega'd Venusaurs on Infernape to save something like their Ferrothorn a lot.
Honestly I'd just use Mega Gallade/Mega Yoga Pants for this.
252 SpA Lucario Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 304-360 (89.1 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 346-408 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
HP Ice does roughly the same coming from both Pokemon and without the life orb damage output it's a little bit less. Of course, running full special could mediate this. Or, alternatively, Blaze Focus Sash Flamethrower/Overheat would also work here.
252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 228-270 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
44 SpA Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 372-436 (105.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this isn't even LO)
"Okay, so what is Zer0 smoking saying Infernape is mostly better? It's mostly on par here Zer0, shut your ignorant ass up!"
The justification lies in that Infernape is faster, uses a single spread (you could use a Lucario spread 252+ atk, 252 SpAtk but that's kind of ew,) and gives more to the team with the coverage options that still help it slay the Grass. Notice how I haven't altered MixNape at all, compared to Lucario which is, quite frankly, running a whack ass set. Infernape running ThunderPunch/Flamethrower/CC or Mach Punch/ Hidden power Ice hits Flying, Water, Grass, Steel, Dragon, Rock, Normal, Ground, Ice, Bug, and Dark Types (11 types) super effectively with reliability and strength. Lucario running CC or Vacuum Wave/ Psychic/ Hidden Power ice/ Iron Tail hits Normal, Grass, Fighting, Flying, Poison, Ground, Rock, Bug, Steel, Fire, Ice, Dragon, Dark, and Fairy, which is 14 types. That looks great, but what you also have to consider is the strength with which you hit and if you have anything else that does the same, but better. Infernape can remove Normal, Flying, Rock, Bug, Steel, Ice, Dragon, Grass, and Dark from the niche super effective list, Mega Gallade can remove Poison, Fighting, and Ground, and then Keldeo can remove Ground (if not MeGallade,) and Fire, leaving you with the single niche coverage type of Fairy. I feel like that's not enough to warrant using Lucario.
44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 117-140 (32.1 - 38.4%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO
Alright, you got me here. Psychic will have higher output than Flamethrower on Mega Venusaur however, those of you who run Flare Blitz have a larger chance to 2HKO. Also, while it's not an argument and more of a general trend I've seen, Grass players send in their un-mega'd Venusaurs on Infernape to save something like their Ferrothorn a lot.
Honestly I'd just use Mega Gallade/Mega Yoga Pants for this.
252 SpA Lucario Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 304-360 (89.1 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 346-408 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
HP Ice does roughly the same coming from both Pokemon and without the life orb damage output it's a little bit less. Of course, running full special could mediate this. Or, alternatively, Blaze Focus Sash Flamethrower/Overheat would also work here.
252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 228-270 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
44 SpA Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 372-436 (105.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this isn't even LO)
"Okay, so what is Zer0 smoking saying Infernape is mostly better? It's mostly on par here Zer0, shut your ignorant ass up!"
The justification lies in that Infernape is faster, uses a single spread (you could use a Lucario spread 252+ atk, 252 SpAtk but that's kind of ew,) and gives more to the team with the coverage options that still help it slay the Grass. Notice how I haven't altered MixNape at all, compared to Lucario which is, quite frankly, running a whack ass set. Infernape running ThunderPunch/Flamethrower/CC or Mach Punch/ Hidden power Ice hits Flying, Water, Grass, Steel, Dragon, Rock, Normal, Ground, Ice, Bug, and Dark Types (11 types) super effectively with reliability and strength. Lucario running CC or Vacuum Wave/ Psychic/ Hidden Power ice/ Iron Tail hits Normal, Grass, Fighting, Flying, Poison, Ground, Rock, Bug, Steel, Fire, Ice, Dragon, Dark, and Fairy, which is 14 types. That looks great, but what you also have to consider is the strength with which you hit and if you have anything else that does the same, but better. Infernape can remove Normal, Flying, Rock, Bug, Steel, Ice, Dragon, Grass, and Dark from the niche super effective list, Mega Gallade can remove Poison, Fighting, and Ground, and then Keldeo can remove Ground (if not MeGallade,) and Fire, leaving you with the single niche coverage type of Fairy. I feel like that's not enough to warrant using Lucario.
Also, I'd LOVE to know the last time you KO'd a Skymin with priority (lol I'm about to mach punch it to death) You get fake out from MegaCham and Bullet Punch from Machamp and MegaCham and that's nearly it.
Aside from those points, isn't being forced to run niche counters for something evidence of overpoweredness? Especially when these counters are arguably less effective at everything but slaying the threat? Isn't this one of the reasons Aegislash was banned? Didn't Skymin receive a UNANIMOUS BAN VOTE because it was too overpowered for OU, and is to this day? I understand the logic of trying to make underused types better, but this has harmed the metagame more than helped. Skymin is BROKEN and needs to be banned.
tl;dr I can't find much of a reason to use Lucario as opposed to better options and you're probably not going to be killing Skymin with priority any day of the week. Also BAN SKYMIN.
Inner focus Lucario does not counter skymin. Inner focus Lucario does not check skymin. Inner focus Lucario does not even revenge kill LO skymin after two rounds of stealth rock damage:
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 140-166 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 322-382 (114.5 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (to see if it can check skymin. Newsflash: it can't.)
Of course, Banded Espeed Lucario can revenge kill Leftovers Skymin. Just how relevant this is, however, I fail to see. And focus sash inner focus Lucario with ice punch will revenge kill skymin. But there are a number of problems with this: firstly, the sash is predictable as heck, and it's more than easy to get rocks up with ferro just to break lucario's and breloom's sashes, or switch out to ferro and let iron barbs do the dirty work. Secondly, it's not exactly a great set. Thirdly, it can't even check, never mind counter! Grass, Bug and Fighting could revenge kill Talon. But it was broken as anything, so we banned it.
If you want to beat skymin with fighting, I think it's clear that you have to go out of your way to be able to beat it. Moreover, as has come up with other pokes, you can't easily beat it until you know which set it is, by which time it could easily be too late. Scarf terrakion will revenge kill with stone edge, and can't come in on seed flare. And honestly, fighting is going to struggle with scarfmin whatever it does.
tl;dr sure, you can beat anything if you have an entire team designed around it, and don't mind sacking five of them. But in a real game, Skymin just provides too much help against teams like fighting, not to mention it makes games so hax-based that it completely goes against the idea of the game being competitive.
No
No Ban on Charizard-Mega-X just because your name is ElectricApples. No Ban on Sableye-Mega for Ghost because, as the recent Ladder Challenge has proven, is not at all "Broken" on Ghost or unhealthy to the Metagame. No, Zekrom is not getting Unabnned even if "those op-mons) aren't Banned because honestly at 90 Speed Zard X and Kyu-B are still slamming you with Dragon Moves.
>Frosty
>Frost server containing a lot of people with bad attitudes
I'm. So ded.
I feel like half of your likes on this post (including mine) came from the word poppycock.
Anyway, I'd like to point out a little bit of something I'm finding to be a little bit of a problem with our Psychic discussion. People want to ban all three of the Megas being discussed, each person mentioning one or two. Can we, like, not? We don't want to do too much damage to a single type that is still only the fourth most popular with all three of them. Banning all three would just not be a good idea.
It really wasn't all that long ago when M-Metagross and M-Gallade didn't exist, and people didn't think banning M-Medi would do irreversable damage to Psychic. Banning M-Metagross isn't something we're going to deal with for at least this month, but in the meantime, I think there'd honestly be very little damage to psychic done, were M-Gallade and M-Medi banned. Therefore we should focus on their effects on the meta as a whole rather than their effects on psychic when deciding whether or not to ban.
Okay,so my opinions have been spread out and I'd like to put them in one general spot.(this is for the psychic megas)
Mega Medicham=ban. This thing ohkos porygon2 on normal, there's 0 switch ins aside from ghost types and it has a psychic core to back it up. Unless you're playing ghost, mega medicham will be extremely easy to put in a power position, also unlike gallade this doesn't need a setup. HJK 2khos 90% of the meta.
Mega Gallade=Ban.Mega Gallade is in the same position as mega medicham in the sense that it has a great psy core to back it up. Mega gallade has a setup move in SD, priority in shadow sneak, recovery in DP, and an all around good move pool. It's simply overpowered when you're backed by an assault vest, a mew, and a slowbro to get you in a setup position.
Mega Metagross=i'm neutral. On steel, I really think this has to go because the zen headbutt coverage is insane. On psychic, it does have the core, but most of the coverage is repetitive to other psychic mons. I think that it'd be fine.
Mega Medicham=ban. This thing ohkos porygon2 on normal, there's 0 switch ins aside from ghost types and it has a psychic core to back it up. Unless you're playing ghost, mega medicham will be extremely easy to put in a power position, also unlike gallade this doesn't need a setup. HJK 2khos 90% of the meta.
Mega Gallade=Ban.Mega Gallade is in the same position as mega medicham in the sense that it has a great psy core to back it up. Mega gallade has a setup move in SD, priority in shadow sneak, recovery in DP, and an all around good move pool. It's simply overpowered when you're backed by an assault vest, a mew, and a slowbro to get you in a setup position.
Mega Metagross=i'm neutral. On steel, I really think this has to go because the zen headbutt coverage is insane. On psychic, it does have the core, but most of the coverage is repetitive to other psychic mons. I think that it'd be fine.
I wish you guys didn't unban these pokemon without any community input. You could have done it much like the ban process, now we've wasted 1 year and 4 months so far on banning them again .-. This really pushed mono back and was ultimately a bad move. These bans need to happen faster though, because the ultimate question is:
Would you rather have a ban happy moderation or a slow moderation.
Ban Happy - Cons
C1: Well you get a more watered down tier, in the sense that the power scale is brought down. This isn't really a problem in monotype which is a offensively oriented meta.
C2: You risk a type being sent to hell, however inactive moderation results in huge mismatches staying the same: ice vs fighting.
Ban Happy - Pros
C1: You won't have to worry about a single pokemon sweeping w/ ease and needing miniscule support or having to hit the forfeit button if you see a certain 'mon (laddering w/ fighting vs skymin). Seriously as a mono player since BW1 this is the most frustrating and unbalanced state monotype has ever been in. (Yes worse than mega luke & kangaskhan+t-flame era. Atleast at that time the whole tier was broken so it had the haxmons type balance). The most annoying part is the unbans when we were getting so close to a completely balanced tier in banning damp rock.
C2: Bluntly broken pokes are banned with swiftness. I mean seriously how much ban-bashing did megawile need to get banned. Second Skymin is the First and Only Poke to get banned Unanimously, and you let it in mono?
Slow Moderation
You get what we have now.
~
Would you rather have a ban happy moderation or a slow moderation.
Ban Happy - Cons
C1: Well you get a more watered down tier, in the sense that the power scale is brought down. This isn't really a problem in monotype which is a offensively oriented meta.
C2: You risk a type being sent to hell, however inactive moderation results in huge mismatches staying the same: ice vs fighting.
Ban Happy - Pros
C1: You won't have to worry about a single pokemon sweeping w/ ease and needing miniscule support or having to hit the forfeit button if you see a certain 'mon (laddering w/ fighting vs skymin). Seriously as a mono player since BW1 this is the most frustrating and unbalanced state monotype has ever been in. (Yes worse than mega luke & kangaskhan+t-flame era. Atleast at that time the whole tier was broken so it had the haxmons type balance). The most annoying part is the unbans when we were getting so close to a completely balanced tier in banning damp rock.
C2: Bluntly broken pokes are banned with swiftness. I mean seriously how much ban-bashing did megawile need to get banned. Second Skymin is the First and Only Poke to get banned Unanimously, and you let it in mono?
Slow Moderation
You get what we have now.
~
Don't get me wrong some unbans like aegislash(which was a very controversial ban anyways) I don't mind. Moving on to greninja, ban it, it's broken and it's unhealthy.
My main reason of wanting to ban it is because is for reasons it was banned in OU.
For my Second point Destiny Device from the Victory Road sub-forum sums up why it is broken, thus I'll quote him.
My main reason of wanting to ban it is because is for reasons it was banned in OU.
Let me start with my thus far unrefuted argument. If it is broken in OU, it is broken in monotype. Since I don't feel like typing it out again I'll just quote:
>Aegislash is the only exception to this, but its ban in OU was extremely controversial (it had 62% supermajority)
First and foremost why what's broken in OU is broken in Monotype:
Uber pokemon were banned for being broken in OU. A tier much more diverse than Monotype. The reasons they are banned in OU are only amplified in Monotype having a more dire effect.
Another addition to the anti-unban arguement: These pokes obviously aren't directly helping the metagame.
That quote was from Characteristics of A Desirable Metagame Thread. Which I think a lot of you should check out.
>Aegislash is the only exception to this, but its ban in OU was extremely controversial (it had 62% supermajority)
First and foremost why what's broken in OU is broken in Monotype:
Uber pokemon were banned for being broken in OU. A tier much more diverse than Monotype. The reasons they are banned in OU are only amplified in Monotype having a more dire effect.
Another addition to the anti-unban arguement: These pokes obviously aren't directly helping the metagame.
That quote was from Characteristics of A Desirable Metagame Thread. Which I think a lot of you should check out.
For my Second point Destiny Device from the Victory Road sub-forum sums up why it is broken, thus I'll quote him.
Destiny Device said:
Last edited:
Ok Charizard X is very restrictive to the metagame. While it can be checked it is very hard to do. It wreaks havoc on many teams Electric, Bug, Grass, Fire, Steel, and many more because of its versatility. You almost never know whether to expect bulky or offensive zard. Char X has plenty of moves to dispatch close to half the metagame. It has moves like: Flareblitz/firepunch, dragon claw, EQ, roost, will-o-wisp, dragon dance, belly drum, flame charge, and more. This is incredible coverage and the right set can break any team. Slowbro may wall most but it can't take a maxed dragon claw. So even things that are considered common counters are ineffective against this monster. Most people trying to keep it allowed are flying users who just haven't put the time in to find a replacement(no offense). It has INCREDIBLE coverage and versatility which is why i believe it should be banned.
I also think greninja should be at least banned from water. Water is extremely strong already and greninja can fill any niche and destroy any type. Thank you for your time.
I also think greninja should be at least banned from water. Water is extremely strong already and greninja can fill any niche and destroy any type. Thank you for your time.
You had me until this part.
Dark is actually one of the stiffest types when it comes to teambuilding. Although sets differ, both now and pre oras effectively always wanted ttar/mandi/sablye (mega now, used to be cherry picked) and if these three are on 100% of high dark teams, then greninja is added as a 4th mandatory man on at least 80% of those. Greninja is good for the reasons it is in OU, but if you look at dark pokemon above the very centralized 100 speed tier, you notice that other than greninja they all have some unavoidable tradeoffs. Some of them have awkward usage AND need a mega stone.
Dark teams are worth considering when team building and you can ladder with them, but they have several match ups that are hard to win even with inteligent play. As for the water is good without greninja arguement, what vs water matches do you see changing without greninja? Fairy? Dragon? how often does that come up these days? In fact I see water team's NOT using greniga potentially adding a couple of unpopular members that could make games vs low types even more lop sided.
I think a greninja ban would fail to diversify dark AND make water slightly weaker against steel/fairy/psychic at the cost of indirectly buffing water vs about 5 other types
Last edited:
- Status