Trace & Toggle Abilities

[Its_A_Random]

blah blah moderated discussion stay on topic blah blah

Not Council but a mod who decided to open discussion on this because I can.

Posts in Feedback that lead to discussion WRT Trace and Toggle Abilities:

So we've been having a running discussion in IRC over the use of Trace when ordering first:

It seems like the official ruling (as well as I can find out given conflicting answers I've received/observed) on this is "No, you cannot trace when sending out first." When asked why the only reasoning I've received (beyond that is just the way it works or Trace is "too good" otherwise) is that there is no opponent to Trace on send out bringing up the argument that switches happen chronologically. This led to a number of responses (that this reasoning is not consistent with the game's mechanics and so on) but also that this is not consistently upheld across Abilities in ASB in general. Shadow Tag allows counterswitching when the Tagmon is coming in but not out. If switches happened chronologically then it should work the other way around (this broke off into its own discussion on Trapping abilities which may or may not be added here later).

These are a few links on Shadow Tag I was requested to put with this post for reference (though whether they help much with my original issue, Trace, or moreso with the follow up Trapping discussion, I'll leave to the reader):
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/switch-ok-rulings.3482470/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/switch-ok-rulings.3485112/

Anyway, long story short. Why is Trace not allowed when sending out first? It seems an unnecessary and unintuitive drawback to the ability. If it is decided that this needs to be the case however I would recommend an explicit statement be added to Trace to inform people to this effect.

The issue of ASB's chronological switches is valid (Although we really don't need to boost Trace any more, have you seen the mons who can use it?)

The issue can be put fairly simply;

• Abilities like Trace are immediately activated on send-out. This means if there's no opponent, then the ability is largely meaningless. This is explicitly stated.
• Trapping effects and abilities are constant from the start of the switch phase to the end. That is to say, if it's trapped at the Switch Phase Start, it's trapped at the Switch Phase End. The same applies for not being trapped (See Shadow Tag switch-ins)

I believe that this is, from a flavour standpoint, enough of a contradiction to warrant a re-examination. I'm also going to say that we should make sure that we factor in other abilities when we review this - Abilities like Intimidate are less explicit in how they work, and it is leading to a number of people being (justifiedly) irate.

Hey can we talk about how honestly stupid Toggle abilities are? It's been annoying for a while but it's just time for a change already. I would love to see a valid argument for why being able to activate or deactivate abilities while ordering second breaks a mon, as right now it acts more of a punishment for forgetting to activate the ability on sendout (which is sometimes even debated whether you can do it or not- see Trace)

The arguement is that the person ordering first should be able to do so with full knowledge of everything about the opposing pokemon. For example I might not sub against having my speed lowered if all the sheer force mon has to do so is bulldoze and icy wind but then all of a sudden they are able to chuck the ability off after I have ordered and Bulldoze me action 1 then Dig under all of my attacks.

I do however support the idea of modifying these abilities so that the most often used version is the default, since several of them are strangely the oposite (ie Sheer Force and Contrary) while for whatever reason Protean is on by default.

As far as Trace goes once again I feel it is important for he ordering first to be as informed as possible (queue obligatory comment about ordering first being hard enough as it is). What I have seen done (and even participated in myself) is allowing the Trace user an option to trace an ability after the opponent has sent out but before ordering. It adds a couple extra steps to the process which is slightly annoying but pretty much the fairest way to do it for all involved. Turn order basically becomes: send out Krill > opponent sends out > Krill traces > opponent orders > Krill orders.

Basically Trace is apparently annoying since it can never be used for free wrt actions ordering second and whatnot and Toggle Abilities are apparently annoying because some have their superior effect on by default and some do not. Also the cannot toggle ordering second paradigm.

Your thoughts on this issue and what to do with these?

 

[ZhengTann]

I like(d?) what TSRD suggested about Trace. As to Toggle Abilities, I think there is an easy solution - we make the "common" choice as the default state. Take Sheer Force for example - everybody who can afford to will definitely slap on a Life Orb, or at least appreciate the +2 BAP over a 10% Paralysis chance. So we'll just make the +2 the default state of SF! I agree that this does not resolve the root of the problem, but at least we allow players to not be screwed over forgetting to type [Sheer Force TOGGLED] when initiating a Switch phase or something.

 

[Mulan15262]

I agree with ZhengTann for toggle abilities.

As far as Trace, I think that, if you send out a pokemon with Trace first, you should get to Trace after the opponent sends out but before the opponent orders (it has been done this way before).

 

[akela]

For reference:

Toggle Abilities

Aerilate: By default, this Pokemon's Normal-type moves are Flying-type moves, and have an additional two (2) BAP boost. When toggled, this Pokemon's Normal-type attacks have their BAP increased by two (2). Only Normal-typed moves changed by Aerilate receive this boost, and not all Flying-type moves. If a Pokemon has been skill-swapped multiple abilities that change Normal-type attacks, the attacks become dual-typed, but the BAP boosts of the abilities do not stack.

Contrary: No default effect. When toggled, this Pokemon's unique structure reverses stat changes it receives in battle, from both its own attacks and those of other Pokemon. At the end of the round, stat changes will still increase/decrease toward 0.

Effect Spore: By default, this Pokemon has a stockpile of defensive spores which it releases on opponents who strike with contact attacks. There is a 10% chance each of poison, paralysis, and sleep. When toggled, the Pokemon is more adept at using Powder attacks, resulting in their accuracy being increased by 10%.

Hustle: No default effect. When toggled, this Pokemon puts immense force and speed into its physical attacks, increasing the Base Attack Power of all its physical attacks by three (3), but the haste used lowers their accuracy to 80% of normal.

Illuminate: No default effect. When toggled, this Pokemon emits a continuous light that brightens the environment and makes it easier for all Pokemon to see. While this ability is active, any darkened or twilight state in the battle is negated and all moves used by any Pokemon (friend or foe, or itself) have their accuracy increased by 10% (flat). Boosts from multiple Illuminates do not stack.

Klutz: By default, the Pokemon moves in a rare style of battling that uses an unpredictable, clumsy looking manner. The accuracy of its attacks is increased by 10% (flat). While engaging in this style it cannot use a hold item, though an item is necessary to pull it off. When toggled, there is no effect.

Normalize: By default, this Pokemon has mastered Normal-type attacks and can change any attack type to have a Normal energy signature. The Pokemon's Normal-type attacks will have four (4) more Base Attack Power. Its other attacks will change their typing to Normal, retain status-inducing and other properties, and not receive the Base Attack Power boost from this ability. When toggled, there is no effect.

Pixilate: By default, this Pokemon's Normal-type moves are Fairy-type moves, and have an additional two (2) BAP boost. When toggled, this Pokemon's Normal-type attacks have their BAP increased by two (2). Only Normal-typed moves changed by Pixilate receive this boost, and not all Fairy-type moves. If a Pokemon has been skill-swapped multiple abilities that change Normal-type attacks, the attacks become dual-typed, but the BAP boosts of the abilities do not stack.

Poison Point: By default, this Pokemon's spikes/quills/thorns are coated in poison, and there is a 30% chance of poisoning any foe that uses a contact attack on this Pokemon. When toggled, this Pokemon's natural toxins are more potent. As a result, all of this Pokemon's attacks that inflict regular poison will inflict Toxic poison instead (with the same chance of effect). If Poison Point is toggled and Poison Touch is on its default effect, the Pokemon's contact attacks will inflict Toxic Poison.

Poison Touch: By default, this Pokemon's body is covered with a film of poison. Whenever it hits an opponent with a contact attack, that opponent has a 30% chance of being Poisoned. When toggled, this Pokemon's natural toxins are more potent. As a result, all of this Pokemon's attacks that inflict regular poison will inflict Toxic poison instead (with the same chance of effect). If Poison Touch is toggled and Poison Point is on its default effect, contact attacks will trigger a 30% Toxic chance.

Protean: By default, this Pokemon switches their type before striking with each damaging attack to match the attack they are about to use, and keep that type until another damaging move is used. The energy cost for the attack is calculated based on their type before using the move. When toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing. Pokemon that also have Color Change ability may select whether to keep their current type or the damaging attack's type each action.

Refrigerate: By default, this Pokemon's Normal-type moves are Ice-type moves, and have an additional two (2) BAP boost. When toggled, this Pokemon's Normal-type attacks have their BAP increased by two (2). Only Normal-typed moves changed by Refrigerate receive this boost, and not all Ice-type moves. If a Pokemon has been skill-swapped multiple abilities that change Normal-type attacks, the attacks become dual-typed, but the BAP boosts of the abilities do not stack.

Sheer Force: No default effect. When toggled, this Pokemon can energize all its attacks with a secondary effect (These are damaging moves that either lower the target's stats, raise the user's stats, or inflict a status condition on the target). The Base Attack Power of every move with a secondary effect increases by two (2), but they will never have their usual secondary effect.

Symbiosis: By default, this Pokemon will immediately act to give an allied Pokemon its held item if they consume theirs, without using up an action. When toggled, this Pokemon will automatically pick up any stray item on the field and take it as its own if it does not have an item.

Weak Armor: No default effect. When toggled, the Pokemon loosens its worn defensive armor so that it will break off when an opponent uses a contact attack, reducing the Pokemon's Defense and increasing their Speed by one (1) stage for each hit.

Zen Mode: No default effect. When toggled, once below 50% of its maximum HP, the Pokemon can focus incredible energy into its body and change forms.

Trigger Abilities

Cloud Nine: Pokemon with Cloud Nine will not suffer any negative effects of weather, but will benefit from all positive effects. Sunny Day and Rain Dance do not increase the damage of attacks against them, or decrease the damage of their attacks. They suffer no damage in Hail and Sandstorm. Their Solar Beam will retain its BAP in Hail, Rain Dance, and Sandstorm, while the charge is still removed under Sunny Day. Solar Beam always charges against them, Blizzard, Thunder and Hurricane will always check with their 70% accuracy (or 50% if a weather effect reduces it.)
Command: Activate Cloud Nine - 5 En - Negates ongoing weather effects instantly. This command does not prevent weather from being re-summoned.

Color Change: A Pokemon with this ability can change its type to that of any attack that has damaged it within the past three (3) actions. It can remain as that type for the duration of the battle, or use Color Change again to change type. When Kecleon uses Camouflage to change its type, its entire body changes color, giving it a one (1) stage boost in evasion. This effect lasts for six (6) actions. Subsequent uses of Camouflage refresh this effect.
Command: Activate Color Change - 5 En - Changes the user's type to match that of an attack that has damaged the user.

Delta Stream: When this Pokémon is sent out, a massive gust blows, overriding all other weather effects and summoning the Strong Wind weather effect to the field, expending 10 EN to do so. Strong Winds shifts all Electric-, Rock-, and Ice-type attacks to their next level of resistance when used against a Flying-type Pokémon. Strong Winds is permanent while this Pokémon is on the field and cannot be overridden in normal circumstances. Strong Winds' effect cannot be nullified by the effects of moves or Air Lock.
Command: Activate Delta Stream - 9 En - Summons Strong Winds weather to the field.

Desolate Land: When this Pokémon is sent out, it summons an excruciating sunlight that overrides all other weather effects and summoning the Strong Sun weather effect to the field, expending 10 EN to do so (Pokémon who also have the Drought ability are exempted from this). Strong Sun has the effects of normal sun except all Water-type attacks deal 0 Damage instead. Strong Sun is permanent while this Pokémon is on the field and cannot be overridden in normal circumstances. Strong Sun's effect cannot be nullified by the effects of moves.
Command: Activate Desolate Land - 9 En - Summons Strong Sun weather to the field.

Drizzle: When this Pokemon is sent out, it summons a massive rainstorm into the field that lasts 4 rounds (6 with Damp Rock), expending 10 EN to do so.
Command: Activate Drizzle - 9 En - Summons rainy weather to the field.

Drought: When this Pokemon is sent out, it summons blistering sunlight that scorches the field and lasts 4 rounds (6 with Heat Rock), expending 10 EN to do so.
Command: Activate Drought - 9 En - Summons sunny weather to the field.

Intimidate: When this Pokemon initially goes out into the battlefield, it generates an intimidating roar or war cry that shakes all opponents on the battlefield, reducing their Attack stage by one (1). The attack drop is maintained at the end of each round. If an opponent switches in a new Pokemon, Intimidate can be activated again as a Command, and will affect all opponents.
Command: Activate Intimidate - 5 En - Lowers all foes' Attack by one (1) stage. Only usable if a foe entered play this round.

Magnet Pull: Steel-types cannot switch out in a Switch=OK battle while a Pokemon with Magnet Pull is on the field without the use of Baton Pass, U-turn, or Volt Switch. In addition, this Pokemon has the ability to generate a magnetic field that can attract or repulse Steel-type Pokemon. Only the most recent Magnet Pull command on a target will affect them. Command: Activate Magnet Pull (Attract target) - 5 En - The target's contact will fail against targets other than the user of Magnet Pull (Attract) for three (3) actions.
Command: Activate Magnet Pull (Repulse target) - 5 En - The target's contact attacks will fail against the user of Magnet Pull (Repulse) for three (3) actions.

Pickpocket: This Pokemon's mischievous nature and greed make it very effective at pawning off an opponents item. If this Pokemon has no item and either it or the opposing Pokemon strikes with a contact attack, their item is stolen and becomes the held item of this Pokemon.
Command: Activate Pickpocket (ally) - 5 En - Trade items with target ally.

Primordial Sea: When this Pokémon is sent out, it summons a torrential downpour that overrides all other weather effects and summoning the Strong Rain weather effect to the field, expending 10 EN to do so (Pokémon who also have the Drizzle ability are exempted from this). Strong Rain has the effects of normal sun except all Fire-type attacks deal 0 Damage instead. Strong Rain is permanent while this Pokémon is on the field and cannot be overridden in normal circumstances. Strong Rain's effect cannot be nullified by the effects of moves.
Command: Activate Primordial Sea - 9 En - Summons Strong Rain weather to the field.

Rebound: The Pokemon is able to bounce one layer of an entry hazard back from their side of the field to the other side with their immense strength and intuition.
Command: Activate Rebound (target hazard layer) - 5 En - Removes a layer of hazards from the user's side of the field. Places a layer of the same type on the opponent's field. In battles with more than two teams, the user must target a team to Rebound to.

Sand Stream: When entering into battle, this Pokemon summons a massive Sandstorm that lasts for 4 rounds (6 with Smooth Rock), expending 10 EN to do so.
Command: Activate Sand Stream - 9 En - Summons sandy weather to the field.

Snow Warning: This Pokemon summons a massive hailstorm upon its entry into battle that lasts 4 rounds (6 with Icy Rock), expending 10 EN to do so.
Command: Activate Snow Warning - 9 En - Summons haily weather to the field.

Trace: When entering into battle, this Pokemon can copy an ability on one of its opponents for 6 EN. This effect only triggers if the ability to be copied is specified when the Pokemon is sent out. The ability remains on the Pokemon for six (6) actions. Wonder Guard cannot be Traced.
Command: Activate Trace (target ability) - 5 En - Replace Trace with the target Ability for six (6) actions. When the copied ability fades, the user regains Trace.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Trace
I'm pretty sure we all agree on Trace - there's no reason not to let someone ordering first Trace, especially since it's only one extra post.

One Effect Toggle
With regards to Toggle abilities, they should be made consistent so that the toggled state has the greater change; I'd argue that having Sheer Force off is the more intuitive approach, as "Sheer Force Toggled" just sounds like the Sheer Force effect is on. So for all Toggle abilities that have one state with no effect and one state with some effect, the no effect state should be default and the effect state should be the one active when toggled.

I'll concede that forgetting to toggle an ability sucks, but in this case I feel like clarity is more important. "Contrary Toggled" sounds like Contrary is active. "Sheer Force Toggled" sounds like Sheer Force is active. Regardless of which effect is more commonly used, we should be consistent in how abilities with one non-effect and one effect state are worded (ex. Normalize vs. Sheer Force) and whatever word we choose to describe these effects should at least make sense.

Two Effect Toggle
For abilities with two distinct, state-dependent effects (Effect Spore, Poison Point, Poison Touch, Pixilate, Refrigerate), they pretty much have to be handled on a case-by-case basis but I like their orderings right now. It's a shame that the Poison Point and Poison Touch interaction has to be so convoluted but whatever.

Effect Spore
Quick clarification fix needed here: "there is a 10% chance each of poison, paralysis, and sleep" means 10% for each status to occur. Since multiple statuses can stack, we probably want something like "there is a 30% chance for a status to be inflicted, with equal chances of poison, paralysis, and sleep."

Protean
Also another quick wording fix needed imo: "when toggled, the Pokemon reverts back to their natural typing" sounds like Protean is a passive ability with a trigger effect. If that's what we want I'm cool with it, but as it stands (without switching the states around) it should be something like "when toggled, the Pokemon automatically reverts back to its natural typing and will not change typing until toggled again."

 

[Avnomke]

I think that we should have toggle abilities default to their in-game state (or otherwise most useful state, if we changed it), since that's what most people think of happening.

Specifically this

Aerilate: Default normal -> flying, toggle nothing happens

Contrary: Default stat changes reversed, toggle nothing happens

Effect Spore: Default status on getting hit, toggle more accurate powders

Hustle: Default more power less acc, toggle nothing happens

Illuminate: Default +10% acc, toggle nothing happens

Klutz: Default items don't work, toggle nothing happens

Normalize: Default everything is normal, toggle nothing happens

Pixilate: Default normal -> fairy, toggle nothing happens

Poison Point: Default poison on contact, toggle toxic poison

Poison Touch: Default poison on contact, toggle toxic poison

Protean: Default type changing shenanigans, toggle nothing happens

Refrigerate: Default normal -> ice, toggle nothing happens

Sheer Force: Default damage>secondary effects, toggle nothing happens

Symbiosis: Default gives item, toggle greedy

Weak Armor: Default -def +spe, toggle nothing happens

Zen Mode: Default zenmanitan, toggle nothing happens

Also yeah can we have p1 send out -> p2 send out -> p1 trace -> p2 order -> p1 order be standard?

 

[Geodude6]

I'm thinking we could leave Weak Armor as-is and have it be the "odd one out" on the basis that I've seen its effect used literally once in the 2 years I've been in ASB so the "off" state is what most people use.

 

[waterwarrior]

In the boat with effects essentially having their more popular effects be the default- i.e. Sheer Force and Contrary are automatically on and are de-activated by purposely turning them off (and the "Toggled sounds like its on" thing can be pretty easily solved by changing the prompt to "Sheer Force/Contrary/whatever OFF") as well as making it that you can decide to turn them off when you send out whether your ordering first, second, or 25th. Second part places a little bit of burden on Moth/ Skarm users and Subway refs as they now have to de-activate Weak Armor but at the same time I'm not too against Geo's proposal of making it the odd one out.

As for Trace, with the exception of Mega Alakazam it's dumb right now, let's face it. Honestly while I support Trace mon out -> Other mon out -> Trace man traces -> other mon orders -> trace mon orders, I feel that it's like playing against a Protean mon- you know it's a little tricky, but if you somehow don't cover yourself in your moves/subs, you messed up same as you would against anything.

Honestly off-topic here but I think we're almost veering into buff culture towards ordering first- sure it sucks but we're bending over backwards to make it easier in my honest opinion with sub rules and other things. Honestly the "you don't know everything about your opponent" argument confuses me a tiny bit- you know they have the ability, what they could do with it, etc etc. To me it sounds almost like it's overreacting- "Which of my abilities is not shit on a Gardevoir" is not exactly a hard question to answer if you have any chance of ordering first successfully against a Gardevoir, but that's just my two, off-topic, really-should-be-asleep-now cents.

 

[Dogfish44]

Weak Armour gets plenty of use purely because Mandibuzz uses it for free +Speed boosts. Consistency is good.

Trace I'd rather not see activate sending out first (The ability is still obscenely good, plus it's on obscenely good mons as is), since I forsee it needing a lot of clarifications with regards to when it can deserve it's own call, and when the player should have activated it immediately on send in.

WW: WRT "Buff Culture ordering first", the current thread is p.much about making it so trace can limit the options of the person ordering first - this is quite literally the opposite of any buff culture I can think of. More so, you don't inherently know which ability they'll pick, and I'm not a huge fan of giving, again, some of ASB's strongest Pokemon the ability to effectively reduce the number of Substitutions a Pokemon has against it.

 

[akela]

Weak Armour gets plenty of use purely because Mandibuzz uses it for free +Speed boosts. Consistency is good.

Can you provide anyone with a link to a single battle in the last year where Mandibuzz toggled Weak Armor On? Or any battles where a Weak Armor Pokemon Toggled Weak Armor On?

Garbodor? Never toggles it on. Onix? I am the only person to toggle it on and that was for shits and giggles.. Skarmory? Never toggles it on. Omanyte? Never toggles it on. Omastar? Never toggles it on. Kabuto? Never toggles it on. Kabutops? I am the only person to toggle it on and that was for shits and giggles. Slugma? Never toggles it on. Magcargo? Never toggles it on. Dwebble? Never toggles it on. Crustle? Never toggles it on. Vanillite? Never toggles it on. Vanillish? Never toggles it on. Vanilluxe? Never toggles it on. Vullaby? I think Leethoof toggled it on once. Aurumoth? Never toggles it on. But hey, because Vullaby and Mandibuzz have Big Pecks, it should be on by default! Never mind the fact it screws over everything else if the user FORGETS TO TOGGLE IT.

Hm. They forgot to toggle it? Isn't that like the issue with Sheer Force's effect? People were screwed because they forgot to Toggle it?

 

[Avnomke]

Outspeeding the opponent is very useful, and is something that is often underrated. Also the main reason nobody ever turns weak armor on is because it is almost exclusively on crappy pokemon (on that list pretty much every single mon is bad except aurumoth) and people forget that it exists (remember that weak armor isn't really a big selling point for mons). I only say that it should be on by default because that's how it is in-game, and I would prefer that every ability is on by default for consistency reasons. I wouldn't really care if it's left the way it is.

 

[Frosty]

uh

I don't overall care for this discussion, so my 0.5 cent will be the following question:

Is exploding all/most toggle abilities and making them innate an option?

 

[akela]

uh

I don't overall care for this discussion, so my 0.5 cent will be the following question:

Is exploding all/most toggle abilities and making them innate an option?

Yes. But which toggle abilities would be exempt?

 

[Frosty]

Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor and Symbiosis, on the grounds that their ingame effects may be harmful to the pokemon (and since abilities = all is the standard, making them toggleable allows to mimic how people choose other abilities ingame). Their default on be no effect and they would have ingame effect when toggled. If you want to take the risk of the ability backfiring, you toggle them on.

Being able to deactivate (or whatever fuck you want to call the procedure) abilities like Refridgerate or Protean or Poison Touch seems arbitrary as well as an unneeded boost as, most of the time, they are very powerful abilities ingame whose sole "weakness" is the fact that they always kick in (see: protean) whether you want it or not. At least ingame.

EDIT: Saved by akela: and normalize too.

 

[ZhengTann]

Uh, why do we have to blow up stuff? Are there any explosives available when the budget is half a cent?
Disagreeing with Frosty's second paragraph. Competitively, some Abilities (Illuminate, Effect Spore, Poison Point, Poison Touch) offer the diversity we don't see in-catridge (granted in-catridge and ASB are two totally different genres/games). Also if we just blow stuff up gone will be the weird Skill Swapping shenanigans until you have a mon with Normalize + Refrigerate + Pixilate or Serene Grace + Sheer Force and decide to mess around with it.

Also the "don't fix if ain't broken" mentality but I dunno how much it amounts to, given that at the end of discussion we're still fixing stuff that ain't broken just so it's more comfortable for the players. Read: the difference between (not) having to type Insert Ability here [Toggled/On/Off] while sending out or ordering.

 

[Frosty]

The interactions of those abillities you mentioned were already codified. Toggle doesn't help in that regard.

As for the funky new effects when toggled off (or whatever), they are arbitrary. If you like them oh well. Personally I won't miss them, but that is beside the point. If you want to keep it I would be inclined to put the ingame effect as default and the funky effect as the toogle one.

Heck I would probably do this:

1) Abilities that probably wil be harmful to the player (Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor and Symbiosis): Default is no effect and toggle is ingame effect.
2) Other Abilities: Default is ingame effect and toggle is no effect/not ingame effect
3) If you say "*Ability* ON" you are using the ingame effects and if it is "*ability* OFF" you are using the other effects. Just so we deal with the players that insist on saying "Protean ON" when that is not a valid command <_>;.

 

[Frosty]

If no discussion in 96h I will try my hand at a slate <_<;.

 

[Frosty]

time is up.

On Toggling in general:

a) As Is
b) Toggle Abilities will have the effect correspondent to their ingame effect by default and their other effect (or no effect) if Toggled.
c) Toggle Abilities become innate with their ingame effect

(not adding the opposite from b as it goes against the intention of this thread <_<)

On Potentially Prejudicial Toggle Abilities (Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor, Normalize and Symbiosis)

a) As Is
b) Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor, Normalize and Symbiosis will have the effect correspondent to their ingame effect by default and their other effect (or no effect) if Toggled.
c) Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor, Normalize and Symbiosis will have their other effect (or no effect) by default and the effect correspondent to the ingame effect if Toggled.
d) Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor, Normalize and Symbiosis become innate with the effect correspondent to their ingame effect

BTW, potentially prejudicial ability = Abilities that, more often than not, considering the entire pool of mons that get it (so Delibird and Mandibuzz by themselves are NOT parameters), will cause more harm than good if the effects correspondent to ingame are activated.

On "Ability ON" commands

a) Read them as "Toggle Ability"
b) Read them as "Revert a toggle ability to the effect correspondent to their ingame effect"
c) Disregard them for being illegal

On Trace

a) If no pokemon is on the opposite side of the field, the Player sending out first cannot trigger trace without using up an action.
b) When facing a pokemon with Trace, The Player sending out last must send out the pokemon without orders, in order to give the opponent the opportunity to trigger trace

(btw the slate on Trace is iffy, but oh well. Not much discussion went on here).


48h before booth.

 

[tehy]

You know, why not just let each user set their own default? Where the abilities are, you write either (Toggled) or (Toggled off) or whatever terms people decide.

At trace: mons being good isn't a reason to maintain dumb mechanics

 

[Geodude6]

tehy: Uniformity is good. Having each user set their own default for each of their mons might become confusing. I agree with you on Trace though.

 

[tehy]

Confusing in what sense? It's pretty simply just there in the ability, and you'll always have the option to change it in-battle (maybe that wasn't clear, but the old toggle stuff is still doable).

It might be a new thing for refs to learn but that's better than screwing people for forgetting to make a decision they would make anyways.

 

[Frosty]

I don't discard that possibility, actually. But only after the toggling shit is uniformed (read: All usually desired effects being default and the novelty ones being toggle), or else it would indeed be confusing (Sheer Force (T) would have the same result as Refridgerate (NT) and it would take a couple seconds to understand that, while the reffing mental process should be as straightforward as possible).

One option I am tickering with is allowing the "Assume ABILITY is always toggled" command to be used. Now it depends on the mood of the ref. If we put it on the handbook, you could say it once, the ref puts that on the summary and you don't need to worry anymore on your run (mainly on RPs).

 

[Frosty]

I added what I said above about assumption and all. As for the suggestion to have a default on the profile, if the assumption thing + the uniformization of toggling don't solve the issue, I am willing to revisit the matter so the mechanics are as user-friendly as possible. But I would much rather try first the option that puts the burden on the player and not the ref, so I prefer those.

48h warning before booth.

On Toggling in general:

a) As Is
b) Toggle Abilities will have the effect correspondent to their ingame effect by default and their other effect (or no effect) if Toggled.
c) Toggle Abilities become innate with their ingame effect

(not adding the opposite from b as it goes against the intention of this thread <_<)

On Potentially Prejudicial Toggle Abilities (Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor, Normalize and Symbiosis)

a) As Is
b) Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor, Normalize and Symbiosis will have the effect correspondent to their ingame effect by default and their other effect (or no effect) if Toggled.
c) Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor, Normalize and Symbiosis will have their other effect (or no effect) by default and the effect correspondent to the ingame effect if Toggled.
d) Hustle, Klutz, Weak Armor, Normalize and Symbiosis become innate with the effect correspondent to their ingame effect

BTW, potentially prejudicial ability = Abilities that, more often than not, considering the entire pool of mons that get it (so Delibird and Mandibuzz by themselves are NOT parameters), will cause more harm than good if the effects correspondent to ingame are activated.

On "Ability ON" commands

a) Read them as "Toggle Ability"
b) Read them as "Revert a toggle ability to the effect correspondent to their ingame effect"
c) Disregard them for being illegal

On "Assume Ability is Toggled" Commands

a) Allow them. This means that if the player says "assume ABILITY is always toggled" the ref will consider that assumption for that run until the player says otherwise.
b) Disregard them for being illegal

On Trace

a) If no pokemon is on the opposite side of the field, the Player sending out first cannot trigger trace without using up an action.
b) When facing a pokemon with Trace, The Player sending out last must send out the pokemon without orders, in order to give the opponent the opportunity to trigger trace

 

[Mowtom]

I think that Skitty and Delcatty would almost always prefer Normalize on. Without it, they are both really bad. Why is Normalize listed as a prejudicial Ability?

 

[Geodude6]

Because Delcatty wants Normalise off sometimes (hi Aggron)