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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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Once upon a time, I was mere keyboard spam. I am ;lmlm no longer. (What I'm saying is call me Sun King from now on because the custom title is gone and newer users will have no clue that's who I am.)

I probably still am just gonna call ya lmlm. Its just a small habit of mine calling people by the name i knew em by first, but will put sun in quotations there afterwards so they know who ya be.


Anyway, just so this isnt the latest installment of Salemance v lmlm (Sun), ill do some more constructive post (while also putting my smog ou wrap proof-read finally).

My favorite of this spate is Cacturne for a few reasons. Pidgeot i adore but it is OU viable easy (and a fun one at that). Weavile is as well and Moxie has always been a disdain for me, dating back probably to some resonation of my Salamence hate but thats not here nor there. Zebstrika is a fun idea, something thats not ou viable, and is original! Usually my perfect trifecta of needs, so why aint it in my win category?

Mainly its cause i myself have always seemed to be one favoring the support/not primariy the big destroyer. Zebstrika is, pardon the pun, lightning in a bottle with how it can almost effortlessly support itself in some cases. Its not the worst idea for a mon to be fully capable of supporting oneself (like hell, its not doing it perfect but its pretty close sometimes) and I have the breaking point of it just not being the one i like the best (which is sad it came down to preference, but is what it be).

Cacturne is for all intents and purposes a mon i like thinking of. Its got a fun buff, not ou viable, and while not original i guess (cacti in the desert have some crazy wrath) its still got tons of flavor points. Its also a point of emphasis i adore in a fun grass type theorymon. I love grass types getting fun stuff (and heck, they need love!) and the idea of it being a complimentary sand sweeper is just a neat idea. It isnt the fast sand sweeper, but it can help cover that up with sucker punch and it can be a bitch to some of the common stops by hitting with its STAB grass attacks (Azumarill (cant reliably switch in), Rotom-W) and even better, it could hit on the opposite end if it so wished (just loses out on priority). It stacks weaknesses sadly (fighting criss board if ttar is sand setter), isnt as bulky as you would like at all.

Yet, even with some small points, i just wanted to state my thoughts. We got good theorymons out, and with two that i love for just fufilling all the criteria i believe needs to be in a theorymon and just coming down to preference. We got two other solid ones with unique ideas and i love the slate all round and cant wait to see how it goes (with the hope of a excadrill weilding a cacturne club popping up come time for voting).

Anyway, thanks for the read if yall did. Now back to my other smogon duties (i hate spelling errors and proofing).
 
My vote is probably going towards Cacturne as well. I reckon its been quite under selled. I like to compare it to Kabutops as that is also a SD reliant sandrush/swift swimmer with access to strong priority that butters up counters/checks to the primary rain/sand sweeper, generally Kingdra/Excadrill. In this comparison, however cacturne is a bit slower and has less bulk, it still has the same Atk stat and far stronger priority.

Not only will Cacturne be a great partner for sand offense teams, but it would also be a great counter to sand offense teams. If this thing gets up a swords dance, which it can do against Tyranitar and Hippowdon, it then proceeds to OHKO all of the sand setters and abusers.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 439-517 (104.5 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Tyranitar: 463-546 (114.8 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 515-606 (142.6 - 167.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 374-441 (120.2 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and just for the hell of it
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cacturne: 259-304 (92.1 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So Cacturne's Sucker Punch at +2 can pretty much OHKO any offensive pokemon that doesn't resist it making Cacturne a solid Sand sweeper and great counter to sand offense.

Also noticed that Cacturne gets Destiny Bond which is nice.
 
Decided to post here, since I have nothing better to do.
Weavile: I've always liked it, and I like this buff. Weavile suddenly becomes a very threating cleaner, and the opponent has pretty much hope they have a priority move to take it out. Continuously boosting is already impressive Attack stat, weavile is definentley going to be a threat with this ability. Unfortunetley, it's still hard walled by Azumarill (if it lacks Posion jab) but it's cleaner, so it's obviously going to have checks/counters.
Cacturne: It's meh... I never really liked Cacturne, and while it's typing is quite unique and it has decent offensive stats, it still doesn't quite strike me as amazing. Its very frail, and life orb+sandstormdamage (never mind... Sand rush gives it an immunity.)means it gets worn down very easily, unless your running drain punch. Also, I'm not a big fan of sand sweepers, as unlike rain sweepers (sun and hail is bad) they don't get an stab boost, which makes stuff like kingdra, omaster and mega Swampert so deadly.
Pidgeot: Seems intresting... But I'm not getting the reference... It seems like a really good momentum grabber with spikes and u-turn, but then it has to forgo roost, which is somewhat problematic.
Zebstrika: Liking this one. A lot. This thing pretty much sets up on anything slower then it. Sure priority, scarfers and very fast pokemon like mega Loppuny can prove to be problematic, but it defienetly going to be intresting. The main issue here is a its inability to run as many moves it would like to... Electrify/Sub/Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Flamethrower obviously is not working... also, 80 base special Attack is very weak, but so is serperiors base 75. Its seems anoying, and I'll Probaly choose it, but it's not broken or anything.
 
Decided to post here, since I have nothing better to do.
Weavile: I've always liked it, and I like this buff. Weavile suddenly becomes a very threating cleaner, and the opponent has pretty much hope they have a priority move to take it out. Continuously boosting is already impressive Attack stat, weavile is definentley going to be a threat with this ability. Unfortunetley, it's still hard walled by Azumarill (if it lacks Posion jab) but it's cleaner, so it's obviously going to have checks/counters.
Cacturne: It's meh... I never really liked Cacturne, and while it's typing is quite unique and it has decent offensive stats, it still doesn't quite strike me as amazing. Its very frail, and life orb+sandstormdamage (never mind... Sand rush gives it an immunity.)means it gets worn down very easily, unless your running drain punch. Also, I'm not a big fan of sand sweepers, as unlike rain sweepers (sun and hail is bad) they don't get an stab boost, which makes stuff like kingdra, omaster and mega Swampert so deadly.
Pidgeot: Seems intresting... But I'm not getting the reference... It seems like a really good momentum grabber with spikes and u-turn, but then it has to forgo roost, which is somewhat problematic.
Zebstrika: Liking this one. A lot. This thing pretty much sets up on anything slower then it. Sure priority, scarfers and very fast pokemon like mega Loppuny can prove to be problematic, but it defienetly going to be intresting. The main issue here is a its inability to run as many moves it would like to... Electrify/Sub/Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Flamethrower obviously is not working... also, 80 base special Attack is very weak, but so is serperiors base 75. Its seems anoying, and I'll Probaly choose it, but it's not broken or anything.
Actually Pidgeot doesn't always run Roost. I believe the most common set atm is Hurricane / Heatwave / HP Ground / U-turn
 
I think I might like it the most out of this slate. I mean... spikes greninja was viable and it was a fast, hard-hitting frail mon so I can see this working similarily. Forces a switch, gets off spikes, u-turns out... Pidgeot only really uses Hurricane and Heat Wave, so like Lopunny (NOT COMPARING IT IN VIABILITY AT ALL; Pidgeot's two moves are nowhere near as good as Lopunny's), it can essentially just pick and choose it's last two moves as support options. Spikes seems a nice add-on and definitely better than Defog or whatever.
 
Yah i mean it could reappy be a bitch in some cases due to how easy i t is to force some things out cause of flying STAB and in effect lay some quick hazards so its a dang fun idea even if its not my prefered one.
 
I think I might like it the most out of this slate. I mean... spikes greninja was viable and it was a fast, hard-hitting frail mon so I can see this working similarily. Forces a switch, gets off spikes, u-turns out... Pidgeot only really uses Hurricane and Heat Wave, so like Lopunny (NOT COMPARING IT IN VIABILITY AT ALL; Pidgeot's two moves are nowhere near as good as Lopunny's), it can essentially just pick and choose it's last two moves as support options. Spikes seems a nice add-on and definitely better than Defog or whatever.
I actually really like the comparison to Greninja here. The most important element here is that it forces a lot of switches. Spikes Pidgeot could easily put in a lot of work against frailer offensive teams because of the number of switches it could force--and consequently--the number of layers of Spikes it could lay. Being able to quickly pivot out is also a great asset--allowing Pidgeot to always put Defoggers in a rough spot. I'm gonna put calcs in below.

Latios: 252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 171-202 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Pidgeot U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 90-108 (29.8 - 35.7%) -- 31.9% chance to 3HKO

Latias: 252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 147-174 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Pidgeot U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 82-98 (27.2 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Against the lati twins, it can 2HKO with Hurricane or provide excellent chunk damage with U-Turn

Skarmory: 252 SpA Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 284-336 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 284-336 (85 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mandibuzz
: 252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 172-204 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Starmie: 252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 211-250 (80.5 - 95.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Starmie either dies to LO recoil or flat out dies to Hurricane no matter which set. Interestingly, Starmie could get the spin off before it dies, and the LO recoil puts it in KO range for Hurricane, meaning it can't switch in again.

Excadrill: 252 SpA Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 304-358 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Exca is promptly 2HKO'd.

As you can see, this leaves pretty much Zapdos as the only Defogger that can take M-Pidgeot. What this means is that Pidgeot would be a prime candidate for gaining access to a hazard. By threatening every hazard clearer aside from Zapdos, Pidgeot can freely lay hazards without worrying about sinking momentum at all. Like I said, this submission REALLY flew under the radar.
 
I actually really like the comparison to Greninja here. The most important element here is that it forces a lot of switches. Spikes Pidgeot could easily put in a lot of work against frailer offensive teams because of the number of switches it could force--and consequently--the number of layers of Spikes it could lay. Being able to quickly pivot out is also a great asset--allowing Pidgeot to always put Defoggers in a rough spot. I'm gonna put calcs in below.

Latios: 252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 171-202 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Pidgeot U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 90-108 (29.8 - 35.7%) -- 31.9% chance to 3HKO

Latias: 252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 147-174 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Pidgeot U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 82-98 (27.2 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Against the lati twins, it can 2HKO with Hurricane or provide excellent chunk damage with U-Turn

Skarmory: 252 SpA Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 284-336 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 284-336 (85 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mandibuzz
: 252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 172-204 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Starmie: 252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 211-250 (80.5 - 95.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Starmie either dies to LO recoil or flat out dies to Hurricane no matter which set. Interestingly, Starmie could get the spin off before it dies, and the LO recoil puts it in KO range for Hurricane, meaning it can't switch in again.

Excadrill: 252 SpA Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 304-358 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Exca is promptly 2HKO'd.

As you can see, this leaves pretty much Zapdos as the only Defogger that can take M-Pidgeot. What this means is that Pidgeot would be a prime candidate for gaining access to a hazard. By threatening every hazard clearer aside from Zapdos, Pidgeot can freely lay hazards without worrying about sinking momentum at all. Like I said, this submission REALLY flew under the radar.
Would it be worth running Naive? That way, without a -attack nature U-turn KOs Latios in combination with Rocks and Hurricane.
 
Would it be worth running Naive? That way, without a -attack nature U-turn KOs Latios in combination with Rocks and Hurricane.

Eh, it's an option. I think that Timid is still preferred because U-Turn is mainly there to just give you switch initiative (momentum). Hurricane already 2HKO's Latios, and Latias risks getting 2HKO even without rocks. Granted--those are the offensive sets. Any sets investing in bulk can handle a little bit more.
 
Eh, it's an option. I think that Timid is still preferred because U-Turn is mainly there to just give you switch initiative (momentum). Hurricane already 2HKO's Latios, and Latias risks getting 2HKO even without rocks. Granted--those are the offensive sets. Any sets investing in bulk can handle a little bit more.
True, I just considered the option to grab momentum while killing Latios in order to threaten it even more.
 
I think that Pidgeot would likely deter Defoggers/clearers from entering the field, tbh. Nobody would switch their hazard removal in against it because the removal would just die. This allows Pidgeot to, as I said, freely lay Spikes and get good chunk damage against opposing teams. This could be amazing for offensive teams that really need the residual damage to sweep/clean.
 
I don't really like the opportunity cost in Spikes Mega Pidgeot. Running it comes at the cost of other megas that are the core of offensive teams, such as Mega Metagross and Mega Lopunny. Otherwise, it seems pretty cool to me. I like it more than electrify Zebstrika, which would be annoying as hell.
 
I don't really like the opportunity cost in Spikes Mega Pidgeot. Running it comes at the cost of other megas that are the core of offensive teams, such as Mega Metagross and Mega Lopunny. Otherwise, it seems pretty cool to me. I like it more than electrify Zebstrika, which would be annoying as hell.

Au contraire, spikes would actually take away some of the opportunity cost from using Mega Pidgeot - as Sun King pointed out, Mega Bird's hazards would more than likely stay up, and with the confusion hax and coverage it gets, it becomes more comparable to Mega Lopunny, but just hitting from the other side. The fourth slot on Pidgeot is often a waste anyway; so with the switches it forces and its great speed, I think it would become a great mon for offensive teams.
 
Electrify Zebstrika will be nothing more than a bad gimmick. I have actually had experience playing against similar pokemon on the low ladders of aaa and stabmons, and while the metas are totally different, the fact remains that it is very easy to deal with. Against stall, even if you have no counters for +6 Zebstrika, you can always just pp stall it by switching between things that can easily take neutral tbolts. It is also setup fodder for pokemon such as altaria, clefable, charizard, volcarona, scizor m-latias and m-sableye. Priority attacks destroy it, namely from pokemon such as conkeldurr, breloom, scizor, dragonite, mamoswine etc. Anything at all with taunt or whirlwind will shut it down; heatran for example always runs at least 1 of taunt or roar, hippo can whirlwind it out etc. Mentioning hippo, ground types are immune to electrify, allowing excadrill, hippo, rhyperior and mamoswine to beat it. In fact, mamoswine would win anyway thanks to ice shard. Finally, common scarfers such as lando-t, ttar, and latios can all easily outspeed and kill it.
TL;DR electrify Zebstrika is a bad gimmick that loses to all playstyles and should not be voted for.
 
My favorite so far is Weavile + Moxie, and Pidgeot + Spikes is a close second. Weavile gets an actually useful ability (lol Pressure) that makes it an even better cleaner, while Pidgeot becomes the second coming of Spikes Greninja. Cacturne doesn't seem that interesting and Electrify Zebstrika is just boring.
 
Pidgeot + spikes is so... Spiky!
Haha no... Unlike Firehusky, my sense of humour is non-existent
But yeah, electrify zebstrika is starting to look quite gimmicky, as it is frail and overall more of a annoyance then anything else. I think references are important in a theorymon project, and I'm not getting spikes Pidgeot. If anything, Pidgeot should get egg Bomb causes its a bird, and birds lay eggs. That also means Pidgeot could be like one of those angry bird things, and that would be intresting... Never mind...
Weavile looks quite appealing, as it further improved its already impressive cleaning capabilities, and moxie is one of the coolest abilities, so any pokemon that makes good use of it is + in my book.
 
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Pidgeot + spikes is so... Spiky!
Haha no... No wonder I'm told that my sense of humour is non-existent.
But yeah, electrify zebstrika is starting to look quite gimmicky, as it is frail and overall more of a annoyance then anything else. I think references are important in a theorymon project, and I'm not getting spikes Pidgeot. If anything, Pidgeot should get egg Bomb causes its a bird, and birds lay eggs. That also means Pidgeot could be like one of those angry bird things, and that would be intresting... Never mind...
Weavile looks quite appealing, as it further improved its already impressive cleaning capabilities, and moxie is one of the coolest abilities, so any pokemon that makes good use of it is + in my book.
You could make an argument that, as Pidgeot is the last in Pidgey's evolution line, it would be the adult and parent to the younger Pidgeys and Pidgeottos. Laying Spikes would be an effective way of protecting their territory and discouraging predators from feeding on their young. Birds also will use just about anything they can find in order to build a nest, including sticks, twigs, and tree bark. Now, the flavor doesn't exactly make sense if you see Spikes as a bunch of caltrops, but really any sort of sharp, hard object would serve the same purpose. Having a Pidgeot mark it's territory with Spikes in order to fend of would be predators makes sense, right?... Right?

(I really like spikes Pidgeot, I want it to work)
 
What is defined as 'fitting' a Pokémon in terms of being relevant to their concept is rather skewed. You've got examples like Squirtle getting Confusion in Gen 2 and then of course the whole Rattata getting Blizzard and Thunder thing. Honestly, my feeling is that if Unfezant can get Wish, it's not too farfetched to say a regional bird can have Spikes. Unless it's something utterly ridiculous like Hydreigon getting Spacial Rend, I don't see anything being particularly unfitting.
hydreigon would love spacial rend tho
 
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You could make an argument that, as Pidgeot is the last in Pidgey's evolution line, it would be the adult and parent to the younger Pidgeys and Pidgeottos. Laying Spikes would be an effective way of protecting their territory and discouraging predators from feeding on their young. Birds also will use just about anything they can find in order to build a nest, including sticks, twigs, and tree bark. Now, the flavor doesn't exactly make sense if you see Spikes as a bunch of caltrops, but really any sort of sharp, hard object would serve the same purpose. Having a Pidgeot mark it's territory with Spikes in order to fend of would be predators makes sense, right?... Right?

(I really like spikes Pidgeot, I want it to work)
Or mabeye lays spikes instead of eggs...
 
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