I'm honestly quite iffy on Mega Diancie moving to A+. As a big Mega Diancie player, I don't think it's a top tier threat. It has great offenses, good speed, good defenses...but on the other hand, awful HP, awful speed prior to Mega Evolving, it is predictable (can only run Diamond Storm, Moonblast, Earth Power, HP Fire, not counting boosting moves), and it's checked by a ton of top tier threats. The Pokemon that can force Diancie out include, but are not limited to: Scarf Landorus-T, Scarf Keldeo, Mega Metagross, Landorus-I, Mega Slowbro, Mega Lopunny, Gyro Ball Ferrothorn, Mega Tyranitar (odd reasoning, but can live Moonblast in sand and OHKO with eq), Air Balloon Heatran with Flash Cannon, Mega Venusaur, Scarf Magnezone, Jirachi, Scizor and its Mega Evolution, Garchomp (can't take a hit, but if it gets a free switch, can eq), Focus Sash Diggersby (gets down to 1hp maybe and then eqs), Amoonguss, Mega Sceptile...I can just go on and on. Some of these may be a bit iffy, but...most of them cause her trouble. For this reason I think she should go down to A.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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heatran unless u trust in focus blast hitting and thats a2 hit ko....
Ive been top 10 on the ladder many times I think i have a "fundamental understanding" of megas the question is do you....
I still dont see a reason to run garde over diancie they have similar roles and r used on similar teams
.. garde doesnt have a niche mega diancie doesn't have and if it does Please lmk cmon man no offense but that was the stupidest argument I heard with the aegislash 700 bst one.,,
and look at cloud nines post to see all the things that wall garde
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 260-308 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 468-552 (172.6 - 203.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 271-321 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 271-321 (70.9 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I beg to differ. Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie are much different. For one, Gard hits through Sub and boats an insanely powerful Pixilate Hyper Voice, whereas Mega Diancie has less special power than mega Gard but makes up for it with Diamond Storm. Furthermore...
252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mega Gardevoir: 194-230 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Although Mega Gardevoir hates Bullet Punch, it's not like she dies to it in one hit like Mega Diancie does. She could simply touch a speck of steel and she'd die...
e: and to add to my previous post, not only is Steel WIng Talonflame now viable:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 108-128 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
it can pick off weakened diancies.
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 468-552 (172.6 - 203.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 271-321 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 271-321 (70.9 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I beg to differ. Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie are much different. For one, Gard hits through Sub and boats an insanely powerful Pixilate Hyper Voice, whereas Mega Diancie has less special power than mega Gard but makes up for it with Diamond Storm. Furthermore...
252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mega Gardevoir: 194-230 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Although Mega Gardevoir hates Bullet Punch, it's not like she dies to it in one hit like Mega Diancie does. She could simply touch a speck of steel and she'd die...
e: and to add to my previous post, not only is Steel WIng Talonflame now viable:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 108-128 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
it can pick off weakened diancies.
run the mega diancie calcs side by side with mega garde not that much of a difference
Diancie also can run a variety of sets more then garde who can also run more but not as much as diancie
furthermore diancies movepool is not matched by garde
252 SpA Mega Diancie Psyshock vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 170-202 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 374-444 (138 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 216-255 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That is a pretty significant power difference there, on top of Gardevoir going through Subs and having an arguably better typing. Sure they make the same KOs (save Mega Venusaur), but Gardevoir's job is to wallbreak, meaning that extra 10% goes farther for leaving these mons in a range for a teammate to clean up. Gardevoir doesn't have that much of a bigger movepool, but it also doesn't need nearly as much. Hyper Voice is what it will primarily be using, Psyshock and Focus Blast just rounding out coverage on its resistances. Moonblast and Earth Power make for decent coverage, but Diancie then has to choose between univested Diamond Storm, Protect, Rock Polish, and Psyshock, each offering something it really wants to have for its best. Gardevoir, on the other hand, gets everything it needs for Wallbreaking in those 3 slots, and can toy with the last one for Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, or Destiny Bond for example.
That said, I still agree with the notion that we're comparing mons with different roles. The only real shared trait is the fairy typing. Diancie is a fast and hard-hitting glass cannon that needs support to Mega and get started. Gardevoir is a ludicrous nuke that also happens to be able to put in some work against offense.
I think people are sort of missing the point that M-Diancie's best traits is to punch holes in the opposing team with potential to clean late-game with its RP set, turning most of these offensive checks to it into liabilities. I'm not exactly sure what is the basis of this debate when as mentioned right above they serve different functions outside of being offensive Fairy types. Then you need to consider that M-Diancie's higher speed tier gives it an edge against various forms of offense among the utility of Magic Bounce deterring both hazards and support moves directed at M-Diancie and its team-mates. The argument of having a lower speed tier prior to evolution, Mega Diancie that is, has not had such an extreme effect where all of a sudden it was deemed ineffective as shown in SPL and high ladder games. If anything all of the positives that it has shown has proven that it is indeed something that is very strong against a variety of archetypes and even with a minimal amount of coverage it has the ability to take on many threats in the meta.
I'm kind of against Mew moving from B+ to A-
The most popular set is the stallbreaker which is good but I don't see how it's gotten any better. Defog isn't great and there are no other sets that see much usage or are regarded as that threatening. The argument that Mew can run a great variety of sets/moves is pointless, because nobody actually runs all these innovative Mew sets, so theorizing about the possibility of them means nothing in terms of viability. In other words, we don't know how viable said sets are unless they become mainstream enough so that it can be seen if they function without the novelty factor. Granted it is easy to make Mew a lure for certain things, but does that really merit a promotion in rank?
Until one of Mew's existing sets is shown to have gotten more effective or a new set is created which surpasses the old ones, I think B+ is the proper rank.
The most popular set is the stallbreaker which is good but I don't see how it's gotten any better. Defog isn't great and there are no other sets that see much usage or are regarded as that threatening. The argument that Mew can run a great variety of sets/moves is pointless, because nobody actually runs all these innovative Mew sets, so theorizing about the possibility of them means nothing in terms of viability. In other words, we don't know how viable said sets are unless they become mainstream enough so that it can be seen if they function without the novelty factor. Granted it is easy to make Mew a lure for certain things, but does that really merit a promotion in rank?
Until one of Mew's existing sets is shown to have gotten more effective or a new set is created which surpasses the old ones, I think B+ is the proper rank.
Manaphy from A ---> A-
I don't have much of an opinion on this since I don't use manaphy that much but I think A- is about right for it.
Tornadus-T from A- ---> A
I'm not sure about this rise mostly because I have bad experiences with Tornadus-T's Hurricane's accuracy but Torn is undoubtably good in the current meta. I don't know whether it's good enough for A rank though.
Dragonite from B+ ---> A-
This is definitely warranted. Dragonite is great currently, both the CB set and the DD set. He is also very underprepared for, with a fair bit of teams being pretty easily beaten by the DD set and little switchins for the CB set.
Kingdra from B+ ---> A-
Kingdra is arguably the best swift swimmer so it stands to reason that he is ranked above the others.
Mew from B+ ---> A-
I don't know what warranted the rise but I may support it if someone explains it.
Mega Beedrill from B+ ---> B
Definitely not. Beedrill is a great revenge killer and late-game cleaner with decent utility in U-Turn making it a very good pokemon in Volt-Turn teams.
Mega Sceptile from B+ ---> B
Mega Sceptile is really underrated right now. He's an excellent revenge killer and late-game cleaner. B+ is good for him.
Volcarona from B ---> B+
Volcarona is a lot better this gen so I'm leaning towards this raise.
Togekiss from B ---> B+
Other people know more about it than me so I'll leave the discussion to them.
Victini from B ---> B+
Victini does have some niches such as checking certain Megas, most notably Mega Metagross, on top of being a solid poke in general. I think I'm leaning towards this rise but I'm not sure.
Mega Ampharos from C+ ---> C
Idk if anything much has changed, though I guess the opportunity cost of using him has increased.
Slowking from C ---> B-
Slowing is very handy and underrated right now. Will probably support this.
Mienshao from C ---> D
Lost one of its sets due to being outclassed by Megs Lopunny but still has a niche in its scarf and band sets. Still I don't think those sets are enough to warrant it staying C.
Thoughts on updates
Mega Lopunny: S ---> A+
I'm a little hesitant but Mega Lopunny isn't on the level of the other S ranks so I guess I agree.
Keldeo: A+ ---> S
Definitely agree, I supported this.
Landorus-T: S ---> A+
I agree, he's still good but his effectiveness has decreased.
Mega Diancie: A ---> A+
I was on the edge of bringing up this nomination again. I'm glad to see it happen.
Excadrill: remains in A
I think this is the right choice. Excadrill is still pretty good.
Gliscor: A ---> A+
Idgaf, I haven't used Gliscor in ORAS
Mega Scizor: A+---> A
I'm not to sure about this one but I can see why it was done.
Celebi: A- ---> A
Definitely agree, Celebi is excellent currently.
Kyurem-B: remains in B+
WHY ISN'T KYRUEM-B B??? IT SOUNDS LIKE THE PERFECT RANK FOR IT. This is a good placement for him. Keep him there.
Terrakion: A- ---> B+
As much as I love Terrakion he isn't that great in the current meta. I want to disagree but I can't
Mega Swampert: B ---> B+
I don't really use rain but he's a good S-Swimmer I guess?
Tentacruel: B ---> B+
I don't think Tentacruel has gotten any better recently but this was due ages ago.
Victini: remains in B
I think it should rise tbh, having some nice niches such as checking Mega Metagross.
Omastar: remains in B
Idgaf, I don't use rain.
Togekiss: remains in B
I think there is a pretty solid case for it to rise but I'm not sure how effective it's sets are right now.
Volcarona: B- ---> B
Volcarona is definitely better and should probably rise higher.
Mega Pidgeot: remains in C+
Mega Pidgeot can be dangerous with the right support but I can't see him rising that much higher. He's more consistent than Torn-T but that's all it has over it.
Espeon: C ---> C-
Who cares?
Cacturne: Unranked ---> D
Idk what Cacturne does, but this guy is cool.
AM Edit: Fixed formatting.
I don't have much of an opinion on this since I don't use manaphy that much but I think A- is about right for it.
Tornadus-T from A- ---> A
I'm not sure about this rise mostly because I have bad experiences with Tornadus-T's Hurricane's accuracy but Torn is undoubtably good in the current meta. I don't know whether it's good enough for A rank though.
Dragonite from B+ ---> A-
This is definitely warranted. Dragonite is great currently, both the CB set and the DD set. He is also very underprepared for, with a fair bit of teams being pretty easily beaten by the DD set and little switchins for the CB set.
Kingdra from B+ ---> A-
Kingdra is arguably the best swift swimmer so it stands to reason that he is ranked above the others.
Mew from B+ ---> A-
I don't know what warranted the rise but I may support it if someone explains it.
Mega Beedrill from B+ ---> B
Definitely not. Beedrill is a great revenge killer and late-game cleaner with decent utility in U-Turn making it a very good pokemon in Volt-Turn teams.
Mega Sceptile from B+ ---> B
Mega Sceptile is really underrated right now. He's an excellent revenge killer and late-game cleaner. B+ is good for him.
Volcarona from B ---> B+
Volcarona is a lot better this gen so I'm leaning towards this raise.
Togekiss from B ---> B+
Other people know more about it than me so I'll leave the discussion to them.
Victini from B ---> B+
Victini does have some niches such as checking certain Megas, most notably Mega Metagross, on top of being a solid poke in general. I think I'm leaning towards this rise but I'm not sure.
Mega Ampharos from C+ ---> C
Idk if anything much has changed, though I guess the opportunity cost of using him has increased.
Slowking from C ---> B-
Slowing is very handy and underrated right now. Will probably support this.
Mienshao from C ---> D
Lost one of its sets due to being outclassed by Megs Lopunny but still has a niche in its scarf and band sets. Still I don't think those sets are enough to warrant it staying C.
Thoughts on updates
Mega Lopunny: S ---> A+
I'm a little hesitant but Mega Lopunny isn't on the level of the other S ranks so I guess I agree.
Keldeo: A+ ---> S
Definitely agree, I supported this.
Landorus-T: S ---> A+
I agree, he's still good but his effectiveness has decreased.
Mega Diancie: A ---> A+
I was on the edge of bringing up this nomination again. I'm glad to see it happen.
Excadrill: remains in A
I think this is the right choice. Excadrill is still pretty good.
Gliscor: A ---> A+
Idgaf, I haven't used Gliscor in ORAS
Mega Scizor: A+---> A
I'm not to sure about this one but I can see why it was done.
Celebi: A- ---> A
Definitely agree, Celebi is excellent currently.
Kyurem-B: remains in B+
Terrakion: A- ---> B+
As much as I love Terrakion he isn't that great in the current meta. I want to disagree but I can't
Mega Swampert: B ---> B+
I don't really use rain but he's a good S-Swimmer I guess?
Tentacruel: B ---> B+
I don't think Tentacruel has gotten any better recently but this was due ages ago.
Victini: remains in B
I think it should rise tbh, having some nice niches such as checking Mega Metagross.
Omastar: remains in B
Idgaf, I don't use rain.
Togekiss: remains in B
I think there is a pretty solid case for it to rise but I'm not sure how effective it's sets are right now.
Volcarona: B- ---> B
Volcarona is definitely better and should probably rise higher.
Mega Pidgeot: remains in C+
Mega Pidgeot can be dangerous with the right support but I can't see him rising that much higher. He's more consistent than Torn-T but that's all it has over it.
Espeon: C ---> C-
Who cares?
Cacturne: Unranked ---> D
Idk what Cacturne does, but this guy is cool.
AM Edit: Fixed formatting.
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Hey guys I’m new so apologies if I say anything stupid but I’ve been using stallbreaker Mew a lot recently and I definitely feel it’s a step above the other B+ ranks and deserves to be A-. Mew checks a lot of common (and scary) threats while breaking stall once Sableye is gone.
It checks Mega Metagross for one by tanking a Meteor Mash, burning it then spamming Softboiled.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws burned Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 106-126 (26.2 - 31.1%)
If I did the math right then even after Rocks and Leftovers, Mew tanks a Meteor Mash and burned Meteor Mash all the time and heals up. Mew also beats Mega Slowbro by Taunting it then stalling it out with Wisp bc +1 Scalds can’t 2HKO Mew (even if it gets the Burn it’s not so bad bc Mew still isn’t 2HKO’d and Synchronize burns MegaBruh as well)
+1 4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mew also beats Clefable. +1 Moonblast does nothing to Mew, who can Taunt it and burn Unaware sets or wear down Magic Guard sets by spamming Knock Off.
+1 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mew is even a solid Latios switch in…
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%)
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%)
It always lives two Dracos when Rocks are off the field, has a chance to live with Rocks up too. Mew also does pretty well against Mega Lopunny without Sub, specially offensive Mega Altaria, etc.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Pixilate Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And it does all this while checking things like Bisharp, Tyranitar, Azumarill, etc. The only things that make Mew kind of ehh for me are SubCM Keldeo who is becoming really common and gets a free Sub up bc Knock Off doesn’t do anything (I’ve tried using Psychic STAB>Knock Off and it worked alright), Heatran (although you can run enough speed to outspeed it and get a Taunt off first I guess), and ofc Mega Sableye, but the cool thing is even if it switches into a Wisp it’ll get burned too bc of Synchronize, which is… something lol. Overall I think Mew deserves to move up bc it beats so many things which makes spreading burns and getting rid of items really easy. It stops most things slower than it and is on par with A- threats like Mega Aerodactyl, Diggersby, Jirachi, etc. And this is just Stallbreaker Mew (the only one I have experience with tbh), there are more Mew sets meaning it has unpredictability on its side.
It checks Mega Metagross for one by tanking a Meteor Mash, burning it then spamming Softboiled.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws burned Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 106-126 (26.2 - 31.1%)
If I did the math right then even after Rocks and Leftovers, Mew tanks a Meteor Mash and burned Meteor Mash all the time and heals up. Mew also beats Mega Slowbro by Taunting it then stalling it out with Wisp bc +1 Scalds can’t 2HKO Mew (even if it gets the Burn it’s not so bad bc Mew still isn’t 2HKO’d and Synchronize burns MegaBruh as well)
+1 4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mew also beats Clefable. +1 Moonblast does nothing to Mew, who can Taunt it and burn Unaware sets or wear down Magic Guard sets by spamming Knock Off.
+1 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mew is even a solid Latios switch in…
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%)
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%)
It always lives two Dracos when Rocks are off the field, has a chance to live with Rocks up too. Mew also does pretty well against Mega Lopunny without Sub, specially offensive Mega Altaria, etc.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Pixilate Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Mew: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And it does all this while checking things like Bisharp, Tyranitar, Azumarill, etc. The only things that make Mew kind of ehh for me are SubCM Keldeo who is becoming really common and gets a free Sub up bc Knock Off doesn’t do anything (I’ve tried using Psychic STAB>Knock Off and it worked alright), Heatran (although you can run enough speed to outspeed it and get a Taunt off first I guess), and ofc Mega Sableye, but the cool thing is even if it switches into a Wisp it’ll get burned too bc of Synchronize, which is… something lol. Overall I think Mew deserves to move up bc it beats so many things which makes spreading burns and getting rid of items really easy. It stops most things slower than it and is on par with A- threats like Mega Aerodactyl, Diggersby, Jirachi, etc. And this is just Stallbreaker Mew (the only one I have experience with tbh), there are more Mew sets meaning it has unpredictability on its side.
Cacturne is ranked purely on its sash spike set. TRC posted it in his latest update post explaining exactly what cacturne does.
trc said:
To be honest, I do not think Dragonite is worth a rise. It is rather underwhelming, and not that difficult to beat. Dragon Dance + Lum Berry might be able to mess with Mega Sableye, but stall will usually be able to be able to handle a +2 Dragonite regardless of what coverage it carries, so it really should not be a problem. Extremespeed is the only reason you would use Dragonite over other Dragon Dancers, such as Zard X, Mega and non-mega Gyarados, and Mega Altaria; there is the argument of not taking a Mega Slot, but the trade-off is the fact that Dragonite is a watered-down version of the aforementioned Megas, just with Extremespeed to pick off weakened threats + Lum Berry and Multiscale for an easier time setting up. Choice Band sets are okay, but they are very prediction reliant and are not that difficult to handle, and its bulky Roost set, while not bad, is not going to push Dragonite up a rank anytime soon. Dragonite is fine where it is at B+ Rank.
Honchkrow is actually pretty good, I know Bisharp hits just as hard, is not stealth rock weak, doesn't have paper defences and Defiant puts heavy opposing pressure for intimidators and defoggers but it's very weak to ground and fighting.
For Honchkrow to get ranked, it should offer some niche to the OU metagame. And this niche its when he have a better sinergy in the team than Bisharp.
The Moxie scarf set still provides a niche, which means that although it is mainly outclassed by others scarfs users, the Moxie scarf set still provides something viable that isnt totally outclassed by others IMO.
You are going to have to be a lot more specific and some good replays to push this. "Having better synergy in a team" is something that varies from team to team and has no real bearing on the meta. Depending on the other 5 members, Kyurem-B can be really good or absolutely terrible. It doesn't necessarily mean it's either good or bad when it comes to the meta as a whole. The same goes for the Moxie Scarf set: simply having Moxie and slapping a scarf on it does not necessarily mean it is viable or has a niche, especially given its mediocre movepool options for a Scarf set.
A LO set utilizing sucker punch is far better for MoxieKrow. Considering someone used Krow in a team they claimed got to #5 on the ladder in an RMT it seems it should be ranked somehow, and it's LO set isn't bad. C-/D certainly
Someone having a good team and getting to #5 does not make one mon on that team good or even rankable. To truly decide if something needs rank we should see some replays, some high ladder use, and reasons that it isn't completely useless in comparison to another mon. I am not saying honch deserves to be unranked but anyone can say they got anywhere on the ladder with any mon I mean hell ben gay won an spl game with cosplay pika on his team that doesn't make it worthy of a rank. We need to actually examine this mon before we are so quick to judge and not with blanket statements like "It fits on teams better" Im not trying to be rude but if viability rank is to be taken seriously we need to have standards and evidence to back up decisions.
From what I've seen after looking at Honch's stats + movepool, it's pros are:
- Moxie + strong priority to abuse it.
- outspeeds Bisharp and Breloom, and able to KO them both.
- Able to use Sucker + Pursuit mindgames.
- decent movepool.
While it's cons:
- Doesn't suit choice items.
- Rather slow.
- relying on superpower to KO steels, which negates the moxie boost and leaves it open to priority.
- Awful defenses make it's HP, as well as acess to defog and roost, useless.
If anyone wants to chuck a team together and supply replays of what it does, it would be helpful. It basically needs a check to dark resists, considering it auto loses to anything faster with coverage for it that it can't take down with sucker.
- Moxie + strong priority to abuse it.
- outspeeds Bisharp and Breloom, and able to KO them both.
- Able to use Sucker + Pursuit mindgames.
- decent movepool.
While it's cons:
- Doesn't suit choice items.
- Rather slow.
- relying on superpower to KO steels, which negates the moxie boost and leaves it open to priority.
- Awful defenses make it's HP, as well as acess to defog and roost, useless.
If anyone wants to chuck a team together and supply replays of what it does, it would be helpful. It basically needs a check to dark resists, considering it auto loses to anything faster with coverage for it that it can't take down with sucker.
Personally I don't really have an opinion on Honchkrow, but I did find that RMT so I thought I may as well post what it says about Honch.
"The Big Boss pokemon. This thing is ridiculously powerful and fun to use. Of course you must be willing to play the silly guessing games with Pursuit/Sucker Punch but there's nothing funner than pursuit-trapping Latis and Metagrosses. Heat wave and HP ice are options to hit Skarmory and Landorus-T respectively, but they are hard to fit in. Superpower KOs Heatran, and at +1 picks of weakened Rotom-W. At +1 Sucker Punch is ridiculously strong and KO's Keldo from half-Hp; Honch also grabs a free boost from scarfed Magnezones that think they can tank a hit.
Here's a fresh replay, merking an average rain team. Watch for the nice double twave to catch Latios (gotta watch out for those peskies).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-204506550
Merking some offence (switched back to Analytic Starmie here). Entei tanks Mega Metagross' EQ like a boss.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-204753420
Against a (not great) balance team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-204749645"
Also I'll summon the user who did so well with Honchkrow to see if they'll share their 2 cents.
PIXIESPRITE
"The Big Boss pokemon. This thing is ridiculously powerful and fun to use. Of course you must be willing to play the silly guessing games with Pursuit/Sucker Punch but there's nothing funner than pursuit-trapping Latis and Metagrosses. Heat wave and HP ice are options to hit Skarmory and Landorus-T respectively, but they are hard to fit in. Superpower KOs Heatran, and at +1 picks of weakened Rotom-W. At +1 Sucker Punch is ridiculously strong and KO's Keldo from half-Hp; Honch also grabs a free boost from scarfed Magnezones that think they can tank a hit.
Here's a fresh replay, merking an average rain team. Watch for the nice double twave to catch Latios (gotta watch out for those peskies).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-204506550
Merking some offence (switched back to Analytic Starmie here). Entei tanks Mega Metagross' EQ like a boss.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-204753420
Against a (not great) balance team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-204749645"
Also I'll summon the user who did so well with Honchkrow to see if they'll share their 2 cents.
PIXIESPRITE
Haven't posted here for a while, but there's a few things I'd like to see move:
Garchomp for A+: simply put, chomp is the best suicide lead for HO teams (Azelf is a very close second). It has good bulk, typing, and power, which allows it to set up rocks 99% of the time! even without a sash. Additionally, it has Swords Dance, which, when paired with a Lum Berry, allows it to beat many bulky waters 1v1, as well as Sableye. However, the reason why it should move up is its bulky set. The bulky set is incredible on bulky offense teams, as well as some balance. It punishes physical attackers like no other, and it sets up rocks against any non special attacker. On top of this, its a great check to Heatran, Lando T, and Bisharp, all very threatening mons in the meta rn. It can even take on non IcePunch gross 1v1, which very few mons can boast. Chomp at the top of the pack for A mons and I feel its time for it to go back to A+.
Mamoswine for B+/B: Mamoswine really took a hit post Mence ORAS, and it honestly isn't that great in OU. Good, sure, but not on par with other A- mons. I'm not very adamant about this change, so if I see a good reasoning for it to stay, I wont argue against it. Imo, it's only viable set is the LO attacker, because Sash Lead is too easy to counter lead from my experience. The LO attacker is good for taking on genies, Lando T, Dragons, and Gliscor, but I find it is often let down by its mediocre speed. Mamoswine is no longer the anti meta monster it once was, and I feel a drop May be necessary.
Azelf for B: second best suicide lead for HO right after chomp. Taunt, speed, boom, and movepool are all it needs to be effective. It also has screens, so it can do that if a team needs those. It's offensive presence is also pretty good, as fire blast is a good move to roast steel types that May try to absorb the boom. Speaking of boom, its a great way to ensure that you maintain momentum, as it gives you a free switch and blocks Defog / spin from slower things. However, Azelf is fairly one dimensional, so I don't see it rising higher than B.
Camerupt for C: talked with AM about this briefly, but I feel camel needs to drop. It's speed is just too damn low. It's power and bulk are good, but it is quickly worn down due to the fact that it is forced to take a hit before it can attack. Yes, the ability to 2HKO most of the tier is awesome. However, this is rarely possible because it's forced to take a hit before it can get off the hits it needs to actually achieve this. C+ is a little high for a niche like this! and a one sub rank drop isn't out of the question.
Ditto for unranked: this thing is just bad. Whenever it's in team preview, everyone knows what its gonna do. And it's not like it's terribly effective at it either. It's forced to run a scarf, and can only get one kill per match, if even that. It's a wasted teamslot 99% of the time, and there's no reason for it to be ranked. Whatever "niche" it has is not enough for this thing to be on the viability rankings. It's worse than Donphan. Yes, Donphan.
Haxorus, Tornadus, Gourgeist-Small, and Noivern for unranked: grouping all these together. They have no niche.
Haxorus's Mold Breaker Taunt is done by Gyara, and the mega slot argument is invalid because Gyara is that good, and Haxorus can't even make use of that taunt because of its frailty. It also has to run poison jab if it wants to beat unaware clef, which is a suboptimal move in OU because you're forced to forego EQ.
Tornadus is just bad. Torn T is better in every way and prankster rain dance isn't enough of a niche to keep it ranked. Thundurus and Klefki do that better while systematically having other uses. Remove it.
Gourgeist Small is 110% outclassed by XL. The speed means nothing when its bulk is really bad due to that low HP.
Noivern has no niche. Hydreigon, Latios, Garchomp, torn T, Mega Pidgeot, and Gengar all do what it might try to do, but 100% better. Ninja is rip, so it being a dragon that beats it is no longer a thing. Hydreigon and Latios are better wallbreaking special dragons that also go one step further through either breaking balance, or defogging. Garchomp is a better attacking dragon too because it, too, has other uses other than attacking, such as bulk and sr. Torn t and Pidgeot both do the hurricane thing better, and their speed is more than enough for the job. Torn t has bulk and power and regenerator, while Pidgeot never misses. Gengar does trick specs better if you really wanna go down that route, because Gengar actually has power behind its attacks. Unranked this thing please.
That's all for now. Might post on what the slate is later, but I needed to bring these up.
Garchomp for A+: simply put, chomp is the best suicide lead for HO teams (Azelf is a very close second). It has good bulk, typing, and power, which allows it to set up rocks 99% of the time! even without a sash. Additionally, it has Swords Dance, which, when paired with a Lum Berry, allows it to beat many bulky waters 1v1, as well as Sableye. However, the reason why it should move up is its bulky set. The bulky set is incredible on bulky offense teams, as well as some balance. It punishes physical attackers like no other, and it sets up rocks against any non special attacker. On top of this, its a great check to Heatran, Lando T, and Bisharp, all very threatening mons in the meta rn. It can even take on non IcePunch gross 1v1, which very few mons can boast. Chomp at the top of the pack for A mons and I feel its time for it to go back to A+.
Mamoswine for B+/B: Mamoswine really took a hit post Mence ORAS, and it honestly isn't that great in OU. Good, sure, but not on par with other A- mons. I'm not very adamant about this change, so if I see a good reasoning for it to stay, I wont argue against it. Imo, it's only viable set is the LO attacker, because Sash Lead is too easy to counter lead from my experience. The LO attacker is good for taking on genies, Lando T, Dragons, and Gliscor, but I find it is often let down by its mediocre speed. Mamoswine is no longer the anti meta monster it once was, and I feel a drop May be necessary.
Azelf for B: second best suicide lead for HO right after chomp. Taunt, speed, boom, and movepool are all it needs to be effective. It also has screens, so it can do that if a team needs those. It's offensive presence is also pretty good, as fire blast is a good move to roast steel types that May try to absorb the boom. Speaking of boom, its a great way to ensure that you maintain momentum, as it gives you a free switch and blocks Defog / spin from slower things. However, Azelf is fairly one dimensional, so I don't see it rising higher than B.
Camerupt for C: talked with AM about this briefly, but I feel camel needs to drop. It's speed is just too damn low. It's power and bulk are good, but it is quickly worn down due to the fact that it is forced to take a hit before it can attack. Yes, the ability to 2HKO most of the tier is awesome. However, this is rarely possible because it's forced to take a hit before it can get off the hits it needs to actually achieve this. C+ is a little high for a niche like this! and a one sub rank drop isn't out of the question.
Ditto for unranked: this thing is just bad. Whenever it's in team preview, everyone knows what its gonna do. And it's not like it's terribly effective at it either. It's forced to run a scarf, and can only get one kill per match, if even that. It's a wasted teamslot 99% of the time, and there's no reason for it to be ranked. Whatever "niche" it has is not enough for this thing to be on the viability rankings. It's worse than Donphan. Yes, Donphan.
Haxorus, Tornadus, Gourgeist-Small, and Noivern for unranked: grouping all these together. They have no niche.
Haxorus's Mold Breaker Taunt is done by Gyara, and the mega slot argument is invalid because Gyara is that good, and Haxorus can't even make use of that taunt because of its frailty. It also has to run poison jab if it wants to beat unaware clef, which is a suboptimal move in OU because you're forced to forego EQ.
Tornadus is just bad. Torn T is better in every way and prankster rain dance isn't enough of a niche to keep it ranked. Thundurus and Klefki do that better while systematically having other uses. Remove it.
Gourgeist Small is 110% outclassed by XL. The speed means nothing when its bulk is really bad due to that low HP.
Noivern has no niche. Hydreigon, Latios, Garchomp, torn T, Mega Pidgeot, and Gengar all do what it might try to do, but 100% better. Ninja is rip, so it being a dragon that beats it is no longer a thing. Hydreigon and Latios are better wallbreaking special dragons that also go one step further through either breaking balance, or defogging. Garchomp is a better attacking dragon too because it, too, has other uses other than attacking, such as bulk and sr. Torn t and Pidgeot both do the hurricane thing better, and their speed is more than enough for the job. Torn t has bulk and power and regenerator, while Pidgeot never misses. Gengar does trick specs better if you really wanna go down that route, because Gengar actually has power behind its attacks. Unranked this thing please.
That's all for now. Might post on what the slate is later, but I needed to bring these up.
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Yeah Honch is a boss. It's niche over Bisharp is Brave Bird, being able to merk Venusaur and BB also being insanely strong in general. It also has good SpA being able to run HP Ice, Heat Wave or HP Grass even. Of course it's very frail and dosen't have defiant...
Ditto's predictability is precisely what gives it a niche, it's pretty much a guarantee your opponent wont try to setup, now I'm with you when you say it's a little bit too high, but I'd say it shouldn't go lower than D.
These two aren't bad enough to be unranked. They have a notable niche that their competitors aren't capable of doing
I can see Mamo being dropped but B is too low in my opinion. The LO set (best set imo) forces many switches against stuff like Lando-T and Heatran and punches big holes in the opponents team. The sash lead is not that good atm but the wallbreaking power from the LO set definitely deserves B+ (and also deserves A- imo), especially now many teams are unprepared and stuff like Heatran, Lando and Clefable are everywhere.
I disagree with the beedrill drop. I think he a hard hitting and fast u-turner that is a great addition to volt turn cores, especially for dealing with big fairy threat and a lot of stuff that's on the rise like celebi. (At least it seems to be from my experience.) It pairs up extremely well with rotom and magnezone. Of course you can just throw in landorus and make it extremely annoying. I think that for a hard hitting late game sweeper/turner he is fine where he is.
Problem with Beedrill is that it's a hit and run Pokemon that's weak to rocks, this coupled with its frailty makes longevity a problem and limits his potency as an offensive pivot. Beedrill needs considerable support to do its job effectively, and the payoff isn't all that amazing. It's a high risk, high maintenance, medium reward Pokemon, add on to the fact that its move options are limited and that it pretty much needs to waste a turn for Protect and you have a Pokemon I don't consider to be on par with other B+ mons.
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