Going a bit off topic but I'm curious to know what the consensus on the viability of Mandibuzz is? I know that during Aegislash's reign in OU Mandibuzz was one of the only "counters" that could switch into most attacks from it. After aegislash departed from OU mandibuzz's usage dropped significantly to the point that they are a rarity these days.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
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I don't know if you're replying to someone so I'll just leave this here.
IMO the hype for it (whatever it had) just died. ORAS brought us new toys with MegaGross, MegaLop, MeGallade, and MegaBee to have as our fast hard-hitters. I feel like it's still strong (but really requires a Swords Dance) in its own right but people just... prefer the new megas. I don't know. MegaBee seems more appealing to me than Mega Pinsir since it's faster and doesn't require set-up. I'd go with Mega Gallade if I wanted to set up with Swords Dance and Mega Lop fares better vs HO. MegaGross is just lol 3bulky3speedy3strong5u. A nasty Stealth Rock weakness is also a big deterrent. It definitely got worse but is still useful. I believe A- suits it better.
Terrakion is an underrated 'mon. Suicide lead is fantastic to get rocks up. The Speed tier is meh but it could be a lot worse. The Scarf set is ok for revenge killing but is easy to counter with Lando-T being everywhere. Anything lower than B+ is underselling Terrakion.
i think that with the introduction of metagross, it definitely holds a niche, but not enough to put it on par with crawdaunt or something. i think there was a conversation about this on the last thread, but im too laxy to find it.
on a different note, i totally agree with lando-i for s. its just so good and versatile and reminds me of how it was in the bw2 days. with a great movepool, decent bulk and typing, good boosting moves to help it thrash offense or destroy stall, its a really versatile mon thats currently gaining a lot of momentum.
also holy shit tier shifts? dude.
Mandibizz took a huge hit when Aegi left. I just see it out classed as a deffoger. it has fantastic bulk kinda ruined by its awkward defensive typing, the dark typing makes it neutral to fighting attacks, meaning it doesn't check fighting types as good as the latis. Its also a SR weak deffoger so loosing a 4th of your health switching in, having to take an attack, then being able to Defog hazards away is hard. It also is quite passive from my experience with using it. It does keep physical attackers in check with foul play, but that's really it's only way of dealing damage. It does have its positives, like having roost for recovery and, like stated before, fantastic bulk, and a great utility move pool including knock off, foul play, whirlwind, taunt, defog. it just doesn't really check/counter that many significant threats in this meta. The only thing that comes to mind is it can survive a +1 flare blitz from Zard-X and OHKO with foul play, but anyone who uses mandibuzz can disagree with me, since I'm not the most experienced with the bird.
What hype exactly? SD is just an end-game asset if the necessity arises. It doesn't change the fact Pinsir is able to punch holes in a team in an effective manner and when you look past the new toy syndrome, which people need to start doing anyways, it's still an effective threat that warrants its current rank. This SR weakness is a deterrence but to the point where it's such a burden is an exaggeration when you consider all the viable hazard removal we have at our disposal. It got a bit worse from the transition we had from XY to ORAS and as such it dropped to A from A+. A- is too low for something like Mega Pinsir.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's bad, I was just trying to explain why he dropped in usage (besides, usage shouldn't be an indicator of strength). He was strong from the start of XY and is still strong now, there are just more Megas to choose from that fulfill his roles and people will flock to the new stuff.
I think Mandibuzz is pretty underrated. It's a really solid mixed wall capable of, with a mixed defensive spread, checking / countering two huge special wallbreakers, Landorus and Gengar. It's one of the two hazard removers capable of going head-on with Gengar, and is the only one capable of recovering and 2hkoing it. On the physical side, it's capable of roadblocking Landorus-T, non-Substitute Mega Lopunny, Garchomp, Mega Metagross, and Mega Scizor. It's certainly not like it once was, but it can hold its own against many top tier Pokemon, mess with stall thanks to Taunt + Toxic, and act as a team's hazard supporter. I realize it's not capable of doing both of these in one set, and that is one thing that limits it. The prevalence of Fairies and Sableye, also inhibits it, as does its SR weakness, but I think as a defensive utility mon it deserves to be ranked in the B category. Whether it belongs in B or B-, I'm not really sure; this post was mainly just for a) defending its overall placement and b) keeping it far away from C.
Mega Beedrill seems great in theory, but it really underwelms in practice. Adaptability and 150 Attack seems great, but that only carries you so far when your typing is crap offensively. Adding onto that, it basically has to run Protect, giving it only one real coverage move. It also has a ton of hard checks and counters regardless of coverage moves, including one of the most common mons in the meta. I rarely even think about this when teambuilding, and usually end up with a few good checks without even trying. I mean, Gliscor, (Mega) Scizor, Landorus-T, Skarm and Heatran all resist its STABs, and that's before we get into things that resist one STAB and coverage.
A real monster. It doesn't get trolled by Greninja speed wise anymore, and it's got a ton of utility. It has the potential to stallbreak, pivot, wallbreak, soak up special attacks, or gain momentum really easily. Regenerator is the best part, there are some matches where it just doesn't seem to die. Regenerator also makes hazards and LO recoil much less noticable. The only real downside is that Hurricane can be inconsistent, but the rest of its positives outweigh that. Overall it's seen a huge rise in usage and viability, and for good reason.
It's made a nice comeback in ORAS. BirdSpam is a lot less common, and there's a new Talon check that pairs well with it offensively (Diancie). Seems like a very high risk, high reward mon. If there's a Talonflame on the other side or Rocks are up, it's a lot less useful. But if it gets a Quiver Dance or two, it could be a clean sweep. It usually has at least one free slot can lure in checks easily as well, a well-timed HP Rock or HP Ground easily cripples otherwise good checks like Talonflame or Heatran. B+ seems like a good place for it, because it does need some more specific support.
SInce I saw Lando-T getting mentioned Id like to bring this up...
An issue I would like to mention in regards to ranking is how important glue is for teams in the metagame. Lando-T and Clefable are two incredible pokemon that can act as glue during teambuilding. They both are great at supporting teammates and overall really create synergy for teams to function well. While these aren't the only two pokemon known for "gluing" teams together (Rotom-W is another example), I am grouping both together because they are constantly on the cusp between A+ and S rank.
It is ridiculously hard to measure how good these pokemon are in terms of their abilities at holding teams together. This mostly because their effectiveness is especially determined by the user. When arguing of rank in the case of Rotom-W many players have defined it's role at gluing a team together as lazy teambuilding because of its ability to loosly patch weaknesses in a team. For new teambuilders the same argument can be used against clefable or lando-T as both can be used as blanket checks that can loosly patch holes in a team. However, for more experienced teambuilders, I feel that Lando-T and Clefable can be used more intellegently and be very effective in supporting a team.
I think it is this issue that is what is keeping the uncertainty of S or A+ rank for the two. Now I am ambivilant as to which rank each pokemon deserves, as I am unsure and not as experienced of how we should take this factor into ranking, but I think that clarifying how important this aspect of support is will help define their ranks.
At the moment their could be some more pressing matters to solve, but I think this should be given some thought in the future.
An issue I would like to mention in regards to ranking is how important glue is for teams in the metagame. Lando-T and Clefable are two incredible pokemon that can act as glue during teambuilding. They both are great at supporting teammates and overall really create synergy for teams to function well. While these aren't the only two pokemon known for "gluing" teams together (Rotom-W is another example), I am grouping both together because they are constantly on the cusp between A+ and S rank.
It is ridiculously hard to measure how good these pokemon are in terms of their abilities at holding teams together. This mostly because their effectiveness is especially determined by the user. When arguing of rank in the case of Rotom-W many players have defined it's role at gluing a team together as lazy teambuilding because of its ability to loosly patch weaknesses in a team. For new teambuilders the same argument can be used against clefable or lando-T as both can be used as blanket checks that can loosly patch holes in a team. However, for more experienced teambuilders, I feel that Lando-T and Clefable can be used more intellegently and be very effective in supporting a team.
I think it is this issue that is what is keeping the uncertainty of S or A+ rank for the two. Now I am ambivilant as to which rank each pokemon deserves, as I am unsure and not as experienced of how we should take this factor into ranking, but I think that clarifying how important this aspect of support is will help define their ranks.
At the moment their could be some more pressing matters to solve, but I think this should be given some thought in the future.
I honestly feel Mandibuzz still has some utility as a wall. Its an amazing way of checking/countering some of the biggest threats in OU, including Mega-gross, LO Gengar, Bisharp and Lando-I. Mons that can consistently switch into ghost types are extremely rare and Mandibuzz is I think fits the bill perfectly. Being a defogger is also good, there are very few defoggers in the tier and having one that isnt pursuit bait is great in a meta rife with pursuit users. Mandibuzz has plenty of issues though, the biggest being way too passive and having a SR weakness means it cant 100% beat mons it should. It also cannot counter both sides of the spectrum with one EV spread, which sucks. Besides these issues, Mandibuzz still has a well defined niche in ou even without Aegislash.
Speaking of Defoggers not named Lati@s, a mon that Ive been using recently with some success is Zapdos. For teams that need defog support but are also weak to certain mons, Zapdos fills an important role. Zapdos beats a wide range of viable offensive mons, including Talonflame, Latios, Metagross, Bisharp, Azumarill, Scizor, Mega Sceptile and Gyarados. While its stats dont initially impress anyone, when combined with a great defensive typing, Zapdos is surpisingly bulky, able to stay healthy throughout matches without an issue. Its also the only defogger capable of completely stopping Bisharp without any 50/50s (Mandibuzz can be setup bait if lacking foul play and Latios has to risk Sucker Punch). On top of the impressive list of high ranked mons Zapdos beats, its able to take on a lot of lower threats without much trouble. I feel like B- just completely undermines all the useful niches Zapdos has, including being one of the only realible Pinsir counters not trapped by Magnet pull, and Zapdos urgently needs to move up to B rank minimum.
Other changes I support
-Sylveon to B+
-Raikou to A-
-Volc to B+
Speaking of Defoggers not named Lati@s, a mon that Ive been using recently with some success is Zapdos. For teams that need defog support but are also weak to certain mons, Zapdos fills an important role. Zapdos beats a wide range of viable offensive mons, including Talonflame, Latios, Metagross, Bisharp, Azumarill, Scizor, Mega Sceptile and Gyarados. While its stats dont initially impress anyone, when combined with a great defensive typing, Zapdos is surpisingly bulky, able to stay healthy throughout matches without an issue. Its also the only defogger capable of completely stopping Bisharp without any 50/50s (Mandibuzz can be setup bait if lacking foul play and Latios has to risk Sucker Punch). On top of the impressive list of high ranked mons Zapdos beats, its able to take on a lot of lower threats without much trouble. I feel like B- just completely undermines all the useful niches Zapdos has, including being one of the only realible Pinsir counters not trapped by Magnet pull, and Zapdos urgently needs to move up to B rank minimum.
Other changes I support
-Sylveon to B+
-Raikou to A-
-Volc to B+
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I know Esp has dropped, but not far enough for me.
Espeon and Smeargle for D rank.
Espeon has no niche outside of GeoPass. It can dual screen, but is rather frail and a poor choice for screening when you have stuff like Klefki, who also has prankster so doesn't need defense investment. C- is too high for a poke with no niche but GeoPass.
Smeargle is all round bad. It's stats are terrible, it's autokilled by priority unless sashed/post momento, meaning it can't do a wide variety of jobs like it seems. It only has a niche in GeoPass, other Smeargles are most likely better off something else. Webs? Shuckle. Spore support? Amoongus/Breloom. Dual Screens? lol at double screen Smeargle. Offensive sets? 20/20 or something, unusable.
TL:DR: Espeon and Smeargle should be D because Smeargle's stats are too bad to do much and it's outclassed in all of it's roles but Baton Pass. Espeon has no niche but recieving Smeargle's boosts, so should be D with it.
Espeon and Smeargle for D rank.
Espeon has no niche outside of GeoPass. It can dual screen, but is rather frail and a poor choice for screening when you have stuff like Klefki, who also has prankster so doesn't need defense investment. C- is too high for a poke with no niche but GeoPass.
Smeargle is all round bad. It's stats are terrible, it's autokilled by priority unless sashed/post momento, meaning it can't do a wide variety of jobs like it seems. It only has a niche in GeoPass, other Smeargles are most likely better off something else. Webs? Shuckle. Spore support? Amoongus/Breloom. Dual Screens? lol at double screen Smeargle. Offensive sets? 20/20 or something, unusable.
TL:DR: Espeon and Smeargle should be D because Smeargle's stats are too bad to do much and it's outclassed in all of it's roles but Baton Pass. Espeon has no niche but recieving Smeargle's boosts, so should be D with it.
okay so ive been looking at the viability rank for a couple weeks now, and ive finally come up with what i think would need a change in how the metagame plays atm. also remember these are opinions based on my knowledge and my experience in the ou metagame, so feel free to discuss these rankings with me if needed.
A+ to S: ill start off with lopunny here, i disagree with this drop as it just doesn't makes sense at all too me. lopounny has perfect coverage in it's stabs only, which means that it has two moveslots for whatever it want, this basically gives it massive versatility. it can beat any playstyle as u can just adjust it to whatever ur team needs, it's got everything u should look after in an S rank pokemon, lopunny is just a high reward low risk mon no matter what.
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A+ to S: this change might be very discussable but ill bring it up here anyway, both off those genies is a massive pain to any playstyle whether it's nast plot, calm mind, rock polish or just mixed sets. they are extremely hard to counter and for bulkier teams u will basically only be able to soft-check them, both have amazing move coverage, amazing stat boosting moves, and enough speed/utility to basically threathen any playstyle. im ranking those two for S rank because they are extremely hard to check, they are low risk and hard to play around.
A to A+: this one should have raised ages ago, charizard y is basically the hardest pokemon in the game to switch into, it's a nightmare for bulkier teams they will basically fall to it no matter what if they can't counter it, and if u counter the speciall set u lose to the mixed dd set. at least when im facing this pokemon it's possibly the hardest pokemon to face especially if u can't counter it. it's easely high A+ rank materiall, it's easy to support as hazard control is better than ever and pursuit trapping are extremely easy to pull.
A to A+: why this dropped im not sure off, but scizor is basically one off the more dangerous sd sweepers in the game due to it's massive bulk, amazing typing and great offensive presence. it's one off the few offensive pokemon that hard checks basically any diancie (most are protect/rock polish) and most fairies overall, it checks a ton off the meta with it's typing only, and are extremely easy to use and build around. mega scizor should go back to A+ rank as it has everything an A+ rank mon should posess.
A- to A: jirachi has deemed itself better than ever in oras due to it's ability to check fairies fairly easely, it's extremely versatile, subtoxic, sr setter, wish support, mixed attacker, cm sweeper, scarf, etc. jirachi also has amazing stats, great coverage, and amazing utility moves in healing wish, trick, toxic, thunder wave, stealth rock, u-turn u name it. jirachi should easely be and A rank monwhen being able to fit a ton off teams, any playstyle and having a good defensive typing.
B to B+: victini to B+ because it's very anti-meta atm, the mixed set basically shits all over balance teams, and the cb/scarf set is extremely hard to check for offensive and bulkier teams, so this raise shouldn't rly be to big off a deal.
B to B+: okay so volcarona has become quite popular after ben gay's spl game, and there is no doubt that volcarona is amazing in the metagame atm, as it checks fairies, runs through any playstyle there is if given the chance to do so, it's easely B+ rank materaill and i would like to see a raise.
B- to B+: ok so my last change would be serperior for now. this pokemon are extremely hard to play around if ur team is either weakened, u don't have a talonflame/heatran (lol srsly tho) then u will just get brutalized and humiliated to the max by this pokemon, it's simply ridicoulus how insane this pokemon is u let it boost, every turn it's harder to stop, so this raising to B+ just because off sheer brutal power shouldn't be to much to ask for, it also has ways to keep itself alive in synthetis/giga drain and has decent defensive stats.
Most of your suggestions I agree with however lando-I to s I can't see happening. While lando is hard to check and has (relatively) low risk, the opportunity cost of not using lando-t is pretty huge, and when considering adding a lando-I to a team, I often find myself thinking "crap I can't use lando-t now", as the teams that lando-I finds itself at home on are fast paced hyper offensive or bulky offensive teams, which are both lando-t s favourite playstyles as well. And while yes, opportunity cost is not the final factor when deciding ranks, compare current lando-I to glory-days-mid-xy-s-rank-lando-i, and it's not even close to being on that level, even with the current meta being less prepared for it.okay so ive been looking at the viability rank for a couple weeks now, and ive finally come up with what i think would need a change in how the metagame plays atm. also remember these are opinions based on my knowledge and my experience in the ou metagame, so feel free to discuss these rankings with me if needed.
A+ to S: ill start off with lopunny here, i disagree with this drop as it just doesn't makes sense at all too me. lopounny has perfect coverage in it's stabs only, which means that it has two moveslots for whatever it want, this basically gives it massive versatility. it can beat any playstyle as u can just adjust it to whatever ur team needs, it's got everything u should look after in an S rank pokemon, lopunny is just a high reward low risk mon no matter what.
/A+ to S: this change might be very discussable but ill bring it up here anyway, both off those genies is a massive pain to any playstyle whether it's nast plot, calm mind, rock polish or just mixed sets. they are extremely hard to counter and for bulkier teams u will basically only be able to soft-check them, both have amazing move coverage, amazing stat boosting moves, and enough speed/utility to basically threathen any playstyle. im ranking those two for S rank because they are extremely hard to check, they are low risk and hard to play around.
A to A+: this one should have raised ages ago, charizard y is basically the hardest pokemon in the game to switch into, it's a nightmare for bulkier teams they will basically fall to it no matter what if they can't counter it, and if u counter the speciall set u lose to the mixed dd set. at least when im facing this pokemon it's possibly the hardest pokemon to face especially if u can't counter it. it's easely high A+ rank materiall, it's easy to support as hazard control is better than ever and pursuit trapping are extremely easy to pull.
A to A+: why this dropped im not sure off, but scizor is basically one off the more dangerous sd sweepers in the game due to it's massive bulk, amazing typing and great offensive presence. it's one off the few offensive pokemon that hard checks basically any diancie (most are protect/rock polish) and most fairies overall, it checks a ton off the meta with it's typing only, and are extremely easy to use and build around. mega scizor should go back to A+ rank as it has everything an A+ rank mon should posess.
A- to A: jirachi has deemed itself better than ever in oras due to it's ability to check fairies fairly easely, it's extremely versatile, subtoxic, sr setter, wish support, mixed attacker, cm sweeper, scarf, etc. jirachi also has amazing stats, great coverage, and amazing utility moves in healing wish, trick, toxic, thunder wave, stealth rock, u-turn u name it. jirachi should easely be and A rank monwhen being able to fit a ton off teams, any playstyle and having a good defensive typing.
B to B+: victini to B+ because it's very anti-meta atm, the mixed set basically shits all over balance teams, and the cb/scarf set is extremely hard to check for offensive and bulkier teams, so this raise shouldn't rly be to big off a deal.
B to B+: okay so volcarona has become quite popular after ben gay's spl game, and there is no doubt that volcarona is amazing in the metagame atm, as it checks fairies, runs through any playstyle there is if given the chance to do so, it's easely B+ rank materaill and i would like to see a raise.
B- to B+: ok so my last change would be serperior for now. this pokemon are extremely hard to play around if ur team is either weakened, u don't have a talonflame/heatran (lol srsly tho) then u will just get brutalized and humiliated to the max by this pokemon, it's simply ridicoulus how insane this pokemon is u let it boost, every turn it's harder to stop, so this raising to B+ just because off sheer brutal power shouldn't be to much to ask for, it also has ways to keep itself alive in synthetis/giga drain and has decent defensive stats.
So tl;dr
You're suggestions are good, but lando-I is nowhere near S rank level if lando t isn't at S rank level, so it should stay where it is
Totally agree with a lot of Bluwing's proposed changes. I never really understood why YZard dropped and now it's better than ever, having to fear Latis a tad less, all of its best partners (Keldeo, TTar, Tenta, Celebi, Starmie) are very good atm, no-one prepares for it, it eats Sableye alive, and though Altaria is annoying for it is needs enough bulk to take it on otherwise YZard switches into it an not the other way round, and bulky Altaria is generally easier to deal with with teammates and check in general. It generally does quite well against the bulkier metagame we have right now.
I don't agree with the recent MZor drop, even though it does receive competition from MMeta as a bulky Steel mega and fairykiller it has a lot of perks over it like access to reliable recovery, arguably a better defensive typing which enables it to check Ground types, pretty much counter Bisharp and Gengar as opposed to losing to them, and obviously it's a great Metagross counter itself. Yeah, there is an opportunity cost involved, but it doesn't receive any more competition for its role than Diancie or XZard imo.
I personally don't agree that Thundurus deserves S rank since it has trouble against bulkier teams which are pretty commonplace atm but Landorus-I should probably be considered for S rank, its recent performance in SPL was nothing short of astounding. Specifically, the Rock Polish set, arguably its best set atm, can clean through a lot of teams with ease especially when paired up with Tyranitar which can get rid of its most common checks. You could argue that Gliscor's rise in usage is a problem for Landorus, which it kinda is, but it doesn't have too much trouble fitting HP Ice on its moveset if it needs to.
Serperior and Volcarona are pretty similar in the fact that they both set up really easily and can just win battles out of nowhere, and while they do need good support and a few things removed to do much of anything, if you don't have a good check to them (usually Talonflame) and they're played correctly they usually carry the match, B+ rank doesn't seem like a stretch for either of them imo.
Garchomp is really good atm, it's one of the few rock setters that can get past Sableye thanks to Lum Berry+SD, the tank set is also really solid and is great at wearing down physical attackers like Lando-T, Bisharp, Talonflame and Azumarill, A+ seems like a fair rank for the best offensive rock setter in the tier.
I'm not sure how Camerupt could have gotten any worse, if anything it's better now given how good Celebi (its single best partner), and Keldeo (who also has excellent synergy with it) are right now. I might sound like a broken record here, but a bulkier metagame can only mean good things for Camerupt since balance is the playstyle it does the best against. If you can get rid of Latis (surely you know how to do this) and Rotom-W it pretty much gets a kill if it comes in. I've already made a massive post on Camerupt a while back though so I won't go into any more detail on it but most of what i said there stands true.
Sylveon I believe to be worth B but B+ is really a stretch, while Specs is a good offensive glue it does have a bunch of flaws like its low speed and low physical bulk which kinda compromises its ability to switch into things. also cleric Sylv is irrelevant please don't bring it up.
Oh and can we please drop Doublade to C rank? All this thing does right now is beat MMetagross which there are better answers for, especially on Stall. Everything else it deals with (Latis, Terrakion, Gardevoir, Heracross, Pinsir) is getting less and less relevant as time goes by, and putting it in the same rank as actually pretty decent defensive Pokemon like Gastrodon and Bronzong who beat a greater number of relevant threats and require way less support is weird to me.
I don't agree with the recent MZor drop, even though it does receive competition from MMeta as a bulky Steel mega and fairykiller it has a lot of perks over it like access to reliable recovery, arguably a better defensive typing which enables it to check Ground types, pretty much counter Bisharp and Gengar as opposed to losing to them, and obviously it's a great Metagross counter itself. Yeah, there is an opportunity cost involved, but it doesn't receive any more competition for its role than Diancie or XZard imo.
I personally don't agree that Thundurus deserves S rank since it has trouble against bulkier teams which are pretty commonplace atm but Landorus-I should probably be considered for S rank, its recent performance in SPL was nothing short of astounding. Specifically, the Rock Polish set, arguably its best set atm, can clean through a lot of teams with ease especially when paired up with Tyranitar which can get rid of its most common checks. You could argue that Gliscor's rise in usage is a problem for Landorus, which it kinda is, but it doesn't have too much trouble fitting HP Ice on its moveset if it needs to.
Serperior and Volcarona are pretty similar in the fact that they both set up really easily and can just win battles out of nowhere, and while they do need good support and a few things removed to do much of anything, if you don't have a good check to them (usually Talonflame) and they're played correctly they usually carry the match, B+ rank doesn't seem like a stretch for either of them imo.
Garchomp is really good atm, it's one of the few rock setters that can get past Sableye thanks to Lum Berry+SD, the tank set is also really solid and is great at wearing down physical attackers like Lando-T, Bisharp, Talonflame and Azumarill, A+ seems like a fair rank for the best offensive rock setter in the tier.
I'm not sure how Camerupt could have gotten any worse, if anything it's better now given how good Celebi (its single best partner), and Keldeo (who also has excellent synergy with it) are right now. I might sound like a broken record here, but a bulkier metagame can only mean good things for Camerupt since balance is the playstyle it does the best against. If you can get rid of Latis (surely you know how to do this) and Rotom-W it pretty much gets a kill if it comes in. I've already made a massive post on Camerupt a while back though so I won't go into any more detail on it but most of what i said there stands true.
Sylveon I believe to be worth B but B+ is really a stretch, while Specs is a good offensive glue it does have a bunch of flaws like its low speed and low physical bulk which kinda compromises its ability to switch into things. also cleric Sylv is irrelevant please don't bring it up.
Oh and can we please drop Doublade to C rank? All this thing does right now is beat MMetagross which there are better answers for, especially on Stall. Everything else it deals with (Latis, Terrakion, Gardevoir, Heracross, Pinsir) is getting less and less relevant as time goes by, and putting it in the same rank as actually pretty decent defensive Pokemon like Gastrodon and Bronzong who beat a greater number of relevant threats and require way less support is weird to me.
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idk why people keep doing the lando-t + lando-i comparison lol, they have completely different roles. when i teambuild i never go like, ugh do i need lando-i or lando-t the reason why is that lando-t is mostly used as a defensive wall/scarfer/revenge killer, lando-i on the other hand are mostly used as a stallbreaker/cleaner which makes comparing these two pokemon absurd tbh. like i said the lando-i + thund-i are the most discussable off my noms but don't bring up absurd arguments which has nothing to offer other than confusion.
Edit: ill edit this post from the post under so ppl won't missunderstand this post and start a shitstain off post like this one underneath. i'm aware that if u use ladno-t u can use lando-i and vice versa, but if thats even how ppl compare them, then lol and shame on u...
Edit: ill edit this post from the post under so ppl won't missunderstand this post and start a shitstain off post like this one underneath. i'm aware that if u use ladno-t u can use lando-i and vice versa, but if thats even how ppl compare them, then lol and shame on u...
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The comparison isnt in roles, its moreso that using one prevents you from using the other (Though I cant image why you would want to have both on the same team anyway)
I only agree with around the bottom half of Bluwing's post but that's more to do with my standard and his standard of what constitutes those ranks, not like he's wrong in detail though. Oh and please stop bringing the "If you use Lando-I, you can't use Lando-T" argument. Species clause makes this obvious and they have different functions outside of being Ground / Flying. That's like comparing Gliscor and Lando-I when they only have a matching type lol. It makes no sense at this point.
M-Camerupt should drop because to be frank, it's just bad. You can hype it all you want but the fact of the matter is it does not put in any consistent amount of work to warrant a rank at C+ where these aren't bad mons but there should be something expected out of them in regards to their practical performance. A tier riddled with Keldeo isn't a good thing either and being slow as hell means you're getting 2HKO by something on every single relevant playstyle. Also this bulk it supposably has is somewhat exaggerated and it's insanely easy to force switches and put consistent pressure on M-Camerupt for it to do not a whole lot in the game. Prediction reliant, terrible speed, over-exaggerated wall-breaking capabilities, yeah it's really not a C+ ranked mon and it sort of maintained this position based on new toy syndrome.
M-Camerupt should drop because to be frank, it's just bad. You can hype it all you want but the fact of the matter is it does not put in any consistent amount of work to warrant a rank at C+ where these aren't bad mons but there should be something expected out of them in regards to their practical performance. A tier riddled with Keldeo isn't a good thing either and being slow as hell means you're getting 2HKO by something on every single relevant playstyle. Also this bulk it supposably has is somewhat exaggerated and it's insanely easy to force switches and put consistent pressure on M-Camerupt for it to do not a whole lot in the game. Prediction reliant, terrible speed, over-exaggerated wall-breaking capabilities, yeah it's really not a C+ ranked mon and it sort of maintained this position based on new toy syndrome.
I would like to discuss about Omastar. Omastar does not need to much support in my opinion, it just comes in and hits everything very hard. All it really needs is a Politoed for rain and a priority counter. A flying type is always good to pair with it a ground resitence like Latias or Tornadus-T, because of Omastars ground weakness. Latias is very good because it resists Fight / Grass as well, same counts for Tornadus-T as well. Tornadus T is really good as well in the currant metagame and using it in the rain means it can click Hurricane whenever it wants to.
Omastar is definitly B+/A- ! The reason for the rise is, that there is nearly nothing which does not get 2hitted by it. Latias, AV Tangro, Azumarill, Slowbro! Those pokemons are most of the times the checks for the Helix, but Omastar is always Choice Specs. If you manage to set up Rocks and the weather is rain, you will manage to get at least one or two kills. It is obviously hard to get it in, since you can't really switch it in because it needs its HPs, but if you manage to get it in, it does what a Omastar should do - sweep. If you check out my replay vs Sebixxl from last week in SPL, you can see that he switched AV Tangrowth in as his first Omastar check, but since Rocks and Rain were up, Omastar was able to clean 2hit KO it. He decided to switch Tangrowth out and switch Latias in, which was easily 2hit KO'd as well.
My point about Omastar is, that if you manage to play right with it, it won't let you down.
Omastar is definitly B+/A- ! The reason for the rise is, that there is nearly nothing which does not get 2hitted by it. Latias, AV Tangro, Azumarill, Slowbro! Those pokemons are most of the times the checks for the Helix, but Omastar is always Choice Specs. If you manage to set up Rocks and the weather is rain, you will manage to get at least one or two kills. It is obviously hard to get it in, since you can't really switch it in because it needs its HPs, but if you manage to get it in, it does what a Omastar should do - sweep. If you check out my replay vs Sebixxl from last week in SPL, you can see that he switched AV Tangrowth in as his first Omastar check, but since Rocks and Rain were up, Omastar was able to clean 2hit KO it. He decided to switch Tangrowth out and switch Latias in, which was easily 2hit KO'd as well.
My point about Omastar is, that if you manage to play right with it, it won't let you down.
I think Dragonite should not move up to A- and stay B+. If you're using the DD set you probably need to get up 2 before attempting to sweep which is not easy. It is an absolute must to have defog/spin support to make sure multiscale stays intact so that you can try to set up. It also almost requires you to have a lum berry in case something comes in and tries to burn you. As far as the choice band set, I didn't think that this saw much usage anymore but it is not too difficult to play around as d nite is not very fast. All that being said, once you get 2 dances up sweeping comes pretty easily as long as there isn't a ferrothorn or unaware clef, but it's not easy getting there.
I think M-Scep should move down to B. While is is very fast and has a lot of firepower, grass is a horrible offensive typing, especially when you're in ou, with talonflame, heatran, and ferrothorn being very common. Its movepool is very limited and requires you to run the most unreliable move in the game in focus blast so that you can take on the aforementioned steel types. And focus blast only does 52-61% to specially defensive heatran, so unless it is weakened you'll take big damage from an incoming lava plume (and you still have to risk the 70% accuracy). While you can run hp fire for ferro, even that won't ohko the ou utility set (252 SpA Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 220-260 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), and then gyro ball decimates you. Again, it can put dents in teams, but gets hammered by priority, steel types, and scarf lando.
I think M-Scep should move down to B. While is is very fast and has a lot of firepower, grass is a horrible offensive typing, especially when you're in ou, with talonflame, heatran, and ferrothorn being very common. Its movepool is very limited and requires you to run the most unreliable move in the game in focus blast so that you can take on the aforementioned steel types. And focus blast only does 52-61% to specially defensive heatran, so unless it is weakened you'll take big damage from an incoming lava plume (and you still have to risk the 70% accuracy). While you can run hp fire for ferro, even that won't ohko the ou utility set (252 SpA Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 220-260 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), and then gyro ball decimates you. Again, it can put dents in teams, but gets hammered by priority, steel types, and scarf lando.
Something I want to bring into question is the ranking of Smeargle and Espeon. I learned earlier in the week that Klefki was not ranked any higher before the Swagger ban because Swagplay was not considered a competitive strategy -- the Viability Rankings not wanting to rank uncompetitive strategies, which makes sense.
This said, do we consider Geopass/Cancerpass/whatever to be a competitive strategy? From what I've seen it does not promote skill or successful plays, allowing the player to get from 1000-1700 with no trouble. I realize this may be getting into ban/suspect territory here, especially since this is being discussed quite a bit on the recent metagame discussion thread, but I don't feel Geopass should be considered a competitive strategy and hence Espeon and Smeargle should be removed from the rankings altogether -- by keeping them ranked and telling people Geopass is their only real niche, we are essentially promoting a strategy that most everyone agrees is not competitive, requires no skill and is a stain upon the tier. Hence for this reason I find it more important than any other nomination to move Espeon and Smeargle C- --> Unranked, because we as a competitive community should not be promoting Geopass.
This said, do we consider Geopass/Cancerpass/whatever to be a competitive strategy? From what I've seen it does not promote skill or successful plays, allowing the player to get from 1000-1700 with no trouble. I realize this may be getting into ban/suspect territory here, especially since this is being discussed quite a bit on the recent metagame discussion thread, but I don't feel Geopass should be considered a competitive strategy and hence Espeon and Smeargle should be removed from the rankings altogether -- by keeping them ranked and telling people Geopass is their only real niche, we are essentially promoting a strategy that most everyone agrees is not competitive, requires no skill and is a stain upon the tier. Hence for this reason I find it more important than any other nomination to move Espeon and Smeargle C- --> Unranked, because we as a competitive community should not be promoting Geopass.
Well to be honest Mega Sceptile is fine with its currant ranking. In my opinion it has a really good offensive type with dragon and grass and hits most stuff very hard, due to its great coverage. Outspeeding the most pokemon is a really good point too. Obviously you weaken those counters or checks first of all, so it can break the opposing team but to show how good Sceptile is here are two calcs vs your listed counters:
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 206-244 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 216-256 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I do agree with you, that there is always the Focusmiss chance, but it just shows you that Focusblast is a clean 2hit.
Geopass is in my opinion not cool too, but its actually hard to pull of the Geopass so I accept this strategy, because if you play it smart you can play around it.
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 206-244 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 216-256 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I do agree with you, that there is always the Focusmiss chance, but it just shows you that Focusblast is a clean 2hit.
Geopass is in my opinion not cool too, but its actually hard to pull of the Geopass so I accept this strategy, because if you play it smart you can play around it.
Nah, Sceptile needs to move down. In the time that I've used it, it's basically gotten off one weak hit and died to whatever it gets hit by. It's hell to offensive teams, but that alone doesn't give it a B+ Ranking. It's extremely vulnerable to common priority like Ice and Flying, and it's shit on by basically every relevant Fairy in the tier. It's extremely underwhelming and just doesn't hit hard enough for B+. It's forced to use Leaf Storm to get off a considerable about of damage, which allows Pokemon like Talonflame or Mega Altaria to freely come in to set up. And since Focus Blast doesn't hill Heatran and Ferrothorn, it just dies to them next turn. It's a bit over hyped because of its Speed, but, in reality, it's not too fantastic.
I definitely agree landorus should rise to s rank. This is because landorus is an incredibly versatile offensive Mon that heavily pressures stall with its coverage and boosting ability as it can beat convential counters such as unaware calm clefable with sludge wave, spdef gliscor with hp ice and knock off assault vest torn ts item on the switch and beat chansey with knock off leaving it with 2 real counters, Cresselia and (lol) Claydol. Not to mention calm mind to boost and tear through stall. It can also provide utility for offensive teams with stealth rock on many forced switches. It can also clean late game easily with a rock polish set, this allows it to run a modest nature or hit harder and even run bulk to live weak scalds and brave birds after Sr.
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I'm going to nominate Exploud once more for C rank. Yes, it's only good on Trick Room and Sticky Web. Yes, it's not that bulky. But Specs Boomburst is so fucking powerful that Exploud literally eats orphans. Honestly, I dare you name a counter to Exploud that isn't Chansey or Blissey. Anyway, this thing got better in ORAS because it's now able to destroy Mega Sableye thanks to Scrappy and not give two shits about Altaria or Slowbro. Mega Metagross isn't safe against Boomburst either since it can be 2HKOed with SR (and Fire Blast OHKOes no matter how you look at it), while AV Conkeldurr can only switch into Exploud once and can't OHKO with Mach Punch. Tyranitar and Bisharp (who checks sticky web) are OHKOed by Focus Blast and Ferrothorn takes it up the ass if it switches into a super effective move.
Seriously Exploud is ridiculously hard to switch into and has an incredibly spammable STAB move. Move up to C.
Also, if Victini, Volcarona, Sylveon and Togekiss are going up, Weavile should as well. There's no way in hell that it's worse than these four, and can run a pseudo-Greninja set consisting of Knock Off/Icicle Crash/Poison Jab/Low Kick, which is a huge threat to offensive teams. Additionally, Pursuit variants pair well with the Keldeo+Mega Meta core. Weavile for B+.
Seriously Exploud is ridiculously hard to switch into and has an incredibly spammable STAB move. Move up to C.
Also, if Victini, Volcarona, Sylveon and Togekiss are going up, Weavile should as well. There's no way in hell that it's worse than these four, and can run a pseudo-Greninja set consisting of Knock Off/Icicle Crash/Poison Jab/Low Kick, which is a huge threat to offensive teams. Additionally, Pursuit variants pair well with the Keldeo+Mega Meta core. Weavile for B+.
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Landorus-I may be one of the best wallbreakers in the entire tier it just isn't what I'd call S-Rank material. At this point, with the addition of the new megas, the speed creep is just too much for landorus to handle. Stall isn't quite as popular balanced/offensive teams and landorus does not fair well against these. The power is there but landorus is weak to two common forms of priority in aqua jet and ice shard and can be revenge killed easily by talonflame with just little bit of prior damage. It's a fantastic pokemon, don't get me wrong, but at this stage in the metagame there is no way that it is more of a glue to teams than it's therian form. Landorus-T is a glue to teams that almost every team needs in order to check and revenge kill effectively as well as being the best pivot in the tier. If you are using landorus-I you are setting yourself back by not using Landorus-T.
Landorus-I is an incredible mon completely deserving of its A+ ranking but its just not quite the devestating force that it once was. It's completely match up reliant and can be easily checked or revenge killed by many viable mons. It's a great against stall but struggles against offensive teams that have a lot of priority and faster megas.
Landorus to stay in A+
Landorus-I is an incredible mon completely deserving of its A+ ranking but its just not quite the devestating force that it once was. It's completely match up reliant and can be easily checked or revenge killed by many viable mons. It's a great against stall but struggles against offensive teams that have a lot of priority and faster megas.
Landorus to stay in A+
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