np: UU Stage 2 - Uptown Funk You Up

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lzc001 said:
Iron Tail has 75 accuracy, and you need to sacrifice a moveslot to put it on when Salamence could be running Roost, D-Dance, or Defog, all are really good moves that yoi have to give up.
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A coverage move is still a coverage move. It allows it be beat its counters in fairies with relative ease. Focus blast and Iron Tails accuracy issues are outweighed by the pros of beating mences would be checks. Salamence doesnt have to run coverage for every single mon in UU. It can pick its coverage move and let its teammates handle the one or two mons it cant.handle. for example,

Dragon/ground coverage leaves Bronzong and bulky fairies as checks. So Nidoking with Fire Blast is a great partner.

Dragon/steel coverage leaves it walled by Steels, so Krookodile and again Nidoking are great partners.

Scarf moxie sets are usually trolled by physical walls, draco meteor and fire blast bypasses this issue.

The versatility of mence puts the user in a greater advanatage than the opponent, where the user can literally choose the the mon mence cant handle.and have a teammate take care of it.
 
Lord of Bays said:
You missed a very important word there: potential. Double Dance is rarely going to set up against anything more passive than full stall, whereas shit like Scarf and Break are breaking UU RIGHT NOW. I'll get more replays if it makes you feel better, but Terrakion's been cleaning 99% of my games and Dragon Dance Salamence, which people seem to be way more terrified of, has done jack.

Look, can we stop arguing about this and ban Terrakion? However he's broken doesn't change that he's broken.
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Terrakion is a scary mon. Just SD and LO can teat through teams left and right. If we had priority WoW from sableye and Slowbro, we may have a better chance, but as it stands there are few things that can reliably switch into Terrakion outside of Gligar, hippo and Doublade. On my DH team, i run granbull and seismitoad which handle terrak OK. It seriosuly requires good prediction so theyre not maimed. Faster grass types are ok checks too like Serp (everywhere now btw) and mega scept. But, thats the pro lem though it has okay checks at best. All it needs is its 2 STAB moves and maybe coverage in earthquake.
 
"It has been announced that the Johto Starters are to be distributed this year with their Hidden Abilities. From February 27th 2015 to November 30th 2015, if you access Pokémon Bank, you will receive Meganium, Typhlosion and Feraligatr with their Hidden Abilities of Leaf Guard, Flash Fire and Sheer Force respectively. These are distributed through the Pokémon Link feature nto Pokémon X, Y, Omega Ruby or Alpha Sapphire with a limit of 1 of each per Pokémon Bank"

Posted this on NU and RU but do you guys think Sheer Force Gator will have an impact on the tier?
 
Kurona said:
"It has been announced that the Johto Starters are to be distributed is year with their Hidden Abilities. From February 27th 2015 to November 30th 2015, if you access Pokémon Bank, you will receive Meganium, Typhlosion and Feraligatr with their Hidden Abilities of Leaf Guard, Flash Fire and Sheer Force respectively. These are distributed through the Pokémon Link feature nto Pokémon X, Y, Omega Ruby or Alpha Sapphire with a limit of 1 of each per Pokémon Bank"

Posted this on NU and RU but do you guys think Sheer Force Gator will have an impact on the tier?
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Sheer force feraligatr?? PSH you're forgetting about the almighty Leaf Guard Meganium. Nothing is gonna stop it as it sets up sunny day and laugh at status moves.

On a more serious note I read on a post about the rise of Slurpluff thanks to scarf rachi leaving. Are there any sets that people can run now without the fear of jirachi revenge killing, walling/giving jirachi a free switch in?
 
jamashawalker said:
Sheer force feraligatr?? PSH you're forgetting about the almighty Leaf Guard Meganium. Nothing is gonna stop it as it sets up sunny day and laugh at status moves.

On a more serious note I read on a post about the rise of Slurpluff thanks to scarf rachi leaving. Are there any sets that people can run now without the fear of jirachi revenge killing, walling/giving jirachi a free switch in?
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I think most people mean the normal BD Puff set with like BD Play Rough Drain Punch Return
 
Kurona said:
"It has been announced that the Johto Starters are to be distributed this year with their Hidden Abilities. From February 27th 2015 to November 30th 2015, if you access Pokémon Bank, you will receive Meganium, Typhlosion and Feraligatr with their Hidden Abilities of Leaf Guard, Flash Fire and Sheer Force respectively. These are distributed through the Pokémon Link feature nto Pokémon X, Y, Omega Ruby or Alpha Sapphire with a limit of 1 of each per Pokémon Bank"

Posted this on NU and RU but do you guys think Sheer Force Gator will have an impact on the tier?
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Torrent Gator wasn't fantastic by any stretch of the imagination in the tier before and that was with Rachi still here, a really common mon that Gator could set pretty easily up on(bar flinches ofc) so with the departure of Rachi, I doubt it'd be able to perform as well as it did.

Also, I don't really see Sheer Force Gator being much better than Torrent Gator since realistically the only move that Gator runs that can abuse Sheer Force is Waterfall. The plethora of bulky waters in the tier make Ice Punch obsolete so Return/Frustration is generally used to hit those. And if you're running an SD set(the best set in the tier imo), you're gonna be clicking jet a majority of the time which doesn't get boosted by SF and really appreciates the 1.5x torrent boost.
 
Hairy Toenail said:
Torrent Gator wasn't fantastic by any stretch of the imagination in the tier before and that was with Rachi still here, a really common mon that Gator could set pretty easily up on(bar flinches ofc) so with the departure of Rachi, I doubt it'd be able to perform as well as it did.

Also, I don't really see Sheer Force Gator being much better than Torrent Gator since realistically the only move that Gator runs that can abuse Sheer Force is Waterfall. The plethora of bulky waters in the tier make Ice Punch obsolete so Return/Frustration is generally used to hit those. And if you're running an SD set(the best set in the tier imo), you're gonna be clicking jet a majority of the time which doesn't get boosted by SF and really appreciates the 1.5x torrent boost.
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Crunch is a decent option that gets boosted by Sheer Force.
Don't really care about Feraligatr myself but just saying.
 
Hairy Toenail said:
Torrent Gator wasn't fantastic by any stretch of the imagination in the tier before and that was with Rachi still here, a really common mon that Gator could set pretty easily up on(bar flinches ofc) so with the departure of Rachi, I doubt it'd be able to perform as well as it did.

Also, I don't really see Sheer Force Gator being much better than Torrent Gator since realistically the only move that Gator runs that can abuse Sheer Force is Waterfall. The plethora of bulky waters in the tier make Ice Punch obsolete so Return/Frustration is generally used to hit those. And if you're running an SD set(the best set in the tier imo), you're gonna be clicking jet a majority of the time which doesn't get boosted by SF and really appreciates the 1.5x torrent boost.
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Nah, crunch would be used rather than Return because it is the same power with sheer force and it hits Slowking
 
Can confirm you'd either run Crunch or Body Slam over Return. Crunch has (obviously) better coverage, hitting bulky Psychics and Slowking, while Body Slam is just a wee bit stronger. Return is actually about as optimal as Take Down in this scenario, weaker than BP 80 Sheer Force moves AND taking Life Orb recoil.

Are you guys thinking Jolly or Adamant? You fail to outspeed Mega Beedrill either way (who 2HKOs you with U-turn and Poison Jab, or can Knock Off your Life Orb, but gets OHKO'd by any move you carry), but Jolly puts you at 420 (blaze it) while Adamant puts you at 382 after a boost.

To those of you saying that Gatr was never very good anyway: I agree. It was lacking in power. To those of you saying that Sheer Force won't make it a big threat: Have you guys forgotten what Sheer Force did for Nidoking and Nidoqueen? Hell, Feraligatr could conceivably run a mixed set, since it has higher Special Attack than Nidoqueen, on top of some really fucking good physical moves that are boosted by Sheer Force and some absolutely workable special moves. Not to mention mono-Water typing, so GameFreak gave it a shitton of good toys. Sheer Force Feraligatr is gonna be brutal, and frankly, the Swords Dance set is going to be a terrifying wallbreaker, while Dragon Dance is going to be an extremely effective late-game cleaner.
 
Sheer force gatr sounds really good. DD waterfall/crunch/ice punch sounds pretty good coverage. Al 3 moves get a shher force boost plus LO (or lum if you so want).

Lord of Bays i think both have merit tbh. Even with jolly, its going to be more power than Modest Queen, but with a weaker bp STAB move (waterfall vs sludge wave). Adamant and SD can tear things up immediately and has Aqua jet to pick off faster foes that arent bulky dragons like hydre, etc.. i thi.k gatr could rise a lot, maybe nkt like serperior, but definitely will jump to UU.

Edit: i am very curious to see how SF gatr will affect darmanitans usage. I know they play different roles, but both have merits as atrong physical attackers. Gatr can boost its stats much easier, but can be burned vs. Darm who is stronger and faster from the start but is SR weak and cant boost its stats outside of BellyDrum + Salac Berry sets. They coukd be great partners though. Well see what happens!
 
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eaglehawk said:
Then run Ice Beam.
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Tenta and Vape with Ice beam is what I used to deal with Mence last time he was in UU. Worked pretty well for me. Also " In a Meta where bulky water types don't run Ice Beam" Is also a meta where Fairies just got a nice little bump up, so I don't see mence being as big of a problem as he was the last time he ripped up UU.
 
eaglehawk said:
Then run Ice Beam.
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What exactly did you quote me for? If you're gonna strawman a sentence from a paragraph where I was saying that Mence is only too good when people don't prepare for it, at least don't choose one that makes me sound like I want to ban Mence because I don't wanna run Ice Beam .–.

EDIT: Re: Sheer Force Gator, I kinda wanna try SubDD @ LO tbh. That allows it to set up on Water-types bar Pert and Blaster, the former of which is neutral to Waterfall anyway; meaning that it can also do well against defensive teams.
Although Adamant is quite slow (being outsped by max Speed bat and everything faster at +1), its above average physical bulk of 85/100 might allow it to tank a hit and set up a second DD on a lot of mons. Funnily enough, max Speed Adamant barely outspeeds Scarf Shao at +2.
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 194-230 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 153-180 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 168-198 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 153-180 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 201-237 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can even tank Reckless Mienshao's HJK, although it'll have to be at near max. Still though, provided the opponent's priority user has fainted, being able to actually get to +2 on those mons looks really fun[/HIDE]
 
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Hairy Toenail said:
Torrent Gator wasn't fantastic by any stretch of the imagination in the tier before and that was with Rachi still here, a really common mon that Gator could set pretty easily up on(bar flinches ofc) so with the departure of Rachi, I doubt it'd be able to perform as well as it did.

Also, I don't really see Sheer Force Gator being much better than Torrent Gator since realistically the only move that Gator runs that can abuse Sheer Force is Waterfall. The plethora of bulky waters in the tier make Ice Punch obsolete so Return/Frustration is generally used to hit those. And if you're running an SD set(the best set in the tier imo), you're gonna be clicking jet a majority of the time which doesn't get boosted by SF and really appreciates the 1.5x torrent boost.
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I doubt many bulky water types would enjoy switching into a SF crunch, barring Suicune but that dog can take pretty much anything and maybe Alomomola and Vaporeon . Imo Sheer force makes Gatr much more if a threat in UU. Bulky grass types won't like ice Punch, and Slowking, a previous answer, now isn't as effective as it was. Anything else that doesn't resist water, unless it's something like umbreon, would be decimated by Waterfall.
 
Ernesto said:
What exactly did you quote me for? If you're gonna strawman a sentence from a paragraph where I was saying that Mence is only too good when people don't prepare for it, at least don't choose one that makes me sound like I want to ban Mence because I don't wanna run Ice Beam .–.

EDIT: Re: Sheer Force Gator, I kinda wanna try SubDD @ LO tbh. That allows it to set up on Water-types bar Pert and Blaster, the former of which is neutral to Waterfall anyway; meaning that it can also do well against defensive teams.
Although Adamant is quite slow (being outsped by max Speed bat and everything faster at +1), its above average physical bulk of 85/100 might allow it to tank a hit and set up a second DD on a lot of mons. Funnily enough, max Speed Adamant barely outspeeds Scarf Shao at +2.
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 194-230 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 153-180 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 168-198 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 153-180 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 201-237 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can even tank Reckless Mienshao's HJK, although it'll have to be at near max. Still though, provided the opponent's priority user has fainted, being able to actually get to +2 on those mons looks really fun[/HIDE]
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I think he was more or less bringing up that those Bulky Waters Can run Ice Beam. I used to run Ice Beam on Vape for Hydregion*, Bat, and Gligar. It wouldn't be that much of a sacrifice to run ice beam if Mence becomes an issue.
 
Again, it'd be appreciated if people actually read what I said instead of just quoting me, lol. People were saying Mence was broken, so I said it was in a meta where people didn't account for it—running IB on bulky Water-types, P2 or Cress. Like honestly, the guy just quoted one line when I said this:

Ernesto said:
However, I'd really like to see how it fares when Water-types are actually checks to it instead of being setup bait. It could still prove to be broken for being too good against offense, but I can't comment on that for now.
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at the end of my post. I wanted Mence to stay last time it was here and I want it to stay now, even though people who always run offense might disagree with me. So I'll be damned if I let someone strawman my comment to make it sound like I wanna ban it because I'm a lazy teambuilder or something. I dunno why eaglehawk did that because I don't know him, but generally when people do that it's to disprove a person's argument based on a line without context. And that's one thing I don't appreciate.
 
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Punch
- Scald
- Iron Tail
- Rock Slide
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
I am really hyped to use Gator now...it even gets some nice boosting moves and priority...and block
 
Here are the calcs vs his walls/checks with adamant vs jolly nature:

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Vs chesnaught

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+recoveryveryery: 226-268 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 299-354 (78.6 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 247-291 (65 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 330-390 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Vs Suicune

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 136-161 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 195-230 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Vs crobat

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 230-270 (61.6 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recoveryrecovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 253-298 (67.8 - 79.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

[\HIDE]
 
Don't forget that Feraligatr gets Agility too, meaning that it can run Adamant Life Orb Sheer Force and use one turn of setup to prevent anything faster than Jolly Scarfed Mienshao (base 105 speed) from revenging it.
 
Some Double Dance arguments for you: This thing hits fucking harder than Haxorus. Still can't switch in on bulky Waters because OH MY FUCKING GOD GAMEFREAK, but it has FAR superior bulk and its STAB doesn't lock it in to get completely rocked by Fairies. Yeah, it doesn't get anything as hilariously powerful as Outrage, but it can also go mixed and something hilarious like 3HKO SpDef Mega Aggron with Scald. Or just 2HKO with Focus Blast.
 
Ernesto said:
Again, it'd be appreciated if people actually read what I said instead of just quoting me, lol. People were saying Mence was broken, so I said it was in a meta where people didn't account for it—running IB on bulky Water-types, P2 or Cress.
at the end of my post. I wanted Mence to stay last time it was here and I want it to stay now, even though people who always run offense might disagree with me. So I'll be damned if I let someone strawman my comment to make it sound like I wanna ban it because I'm a lazy teambuilder or something. I dunno why eaglehawk did that because I don't know him, but generally when people do that it's to disprove a person's argument based on a line without context. And that's one thing I don't appreciate.
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The problem is that even with ice-beam bulky waters are still hard pressed to actually check salamence, either being 2hko'd by outrage upon switching in (or EQ for empoleon), or OHKO'd by +1 LO outrage if they swap into a DD variant. P2 and cresselia are the only options out of what you listed that don't compromise their movepools by running ice beam that can also tank most salamence variants (and even then, cresselia becomes set-up bait for M-Absol if it opts for ice beam over dazzling gleam).

So if you want a bulky water to actually check salamence, you also need to be running a fairy or bulky steel alongside them, and even then you need to be outpredicting the salamence user as to when they will click outrage because it would be a shame to swap in florges or something only for it to get KO'd by iron tail instead of the obvious outrage targeted at the bulky water.
 
In what world are Suicune and PDef Swampert (or Mega Swampert) 2HKO'd by unboosted Outrage? I'm on mobile, so do you have any calcs that can back up that claim?
 
What is the purpose in running Double Dance Feraligatr when Agility + Swords Dance achieves the same thing as Dragon Dance does as a total? I mean, sure, using only one or the other kind of sounds cool, but I feel like Dragon Dance, being the blend of both, is likely better than Double Dance. Just two coverage moves will leave it walled by a lot, but I think a Mixed set might be unique. Waterfall / Ice Beam / Superpower / Crunch has potential to run through walls like crazy x_x. But then again, Water-types keep it in check hard. This could be where SD comes in handy! I feel SD + 3 Attacks would be flat out better than AgiliDance because coverage, ya know?
 
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