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Resource RU Viability Ranking: ORAS Edition

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KIngt9722 said:
It deserves s rank and until you come up with a good counter statement i'm sticking to it
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A one trick pony dependent on set up before being good is kinda not S rank imo. I support A/A+ but S is too good for it. I didn't exactly pick obscure mons or sets(mixed Houndoom is very good and while admittedly adamant nature was a mistake it is the same as if I had put lonely which is in fact a set people run.
Durant doesn't seem to be warping the tier. It's just a powerful set up sweeper with a great speed stat that's blind until it sets up. The only walls it can effectively set up on(barring holding a Lum Berry which would change the calcs entirely from a life orb set) are Aromatisse, Bronzong, and Cresselia. 2 walls in the whole tier. want a list of other walls wont let it set up successively and why? Here ya go in alphabetical order every RU viable walling mon
Alomomola-see above scald calcs plus chance to burn
Amoongus-Spore. +1 0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 124-147 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Aromatisse-mentioned as one it can
Bronzong-mentioned as one it can
Cobalion-112 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 121-144 (47 - 56%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Cresselia-mentioned as one it can set up on
Gastrodon-0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 144-171 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Golbat-8 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 99-117 (38.5 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hitmontop-0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 112-133 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
Jellicent-0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 135-159 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Registeel-Thunder Wave. Good luck sweeping when paralyzed
Rhyperior-16+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 145-172 (56.4 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also it can roar you out and that would be rather funny.
Slowking-0 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 154-183 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spiritomb-+1 0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 186-220 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also it can Will-O-Wisp.

Note King/others: These are all defensive spreads on relatively common RU walls(I believe I got every logical RU wall by usage listed but if you feel I missed one or some NU-usage wall has real relevance(like Lanturn) then let me know and I will calc for that too happily.

Also notice a common theme? This mon breaks stall wide open. With a lum it can set up on more but loses valuable power. It's an unsightly trade off. Against hyper offense/balance what can ant do? Doesn't seem like very much. it can set up on a few walls. And what else? Not exactly sturdy enough to live any sweepers' specially based hit. And a physical hit is going to cripple it a lot too, no?

Durant has a lot going for doing good damage but is not infallible. It CAN be outsped. With some chip on it before hand I showed in my first post a variety of quality mons can injure it either via outspeed(scarfers werent even calced for) or priority which Durant cant help against. I reiterate

I support wholeheartedly A/A+
However a one trick pony(who wants a scarfer/bander who can't even have a reliable move? Scarfers are often fail-safes and it can't even be counted on to hit ANY move barring -laughs- Aerial Ace? A band set has the same concern. And any sub-pass set is just a sub-set of the Hone Claws standard set with just less coverage.) has no place in S-rank imo, especially when it is so unreliable until it sets up and is so frail on half the spectrum of moves.
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Ms. Sysbit said:
A one trick pony dependent on set up before being good is kinda not S rank imo. I support A/A+ but S is too good for it. I didn't exactly pick obscure mons or sets(mixed Houndoom is very good and while admittedly adamant nature was a mistake it is the same as if I had put lonely which is in fact a set people run.
Durant doesn't seem to be warping the tier. It's just a powerful set up sweeper with a great speed stat that's blind until it sets up. The only walls it can effectively set up on(barring holding a Lum Berry which would change the calcs entirely from a life orb set) are Aromatisse, Bronzong, and Cresselia. 2 walls in the whole tier. want a list of other walls wont let it set up successively and why? Here ya go in alphabetical order every RU viable walling mon
Alomomola-see above scald calcs plus chance to burn
Amoongus-Spore. +1 0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 124-147 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Aromatisse-mentioned as one it can
Bronzong-mentioned as one it can
Cobalion-112 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 121-144 (47 - 56%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Cresselia-mentioned as one it can set up on
Gastrodon-0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 144-171 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Golbat-8 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 99-117 (38.5 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hitmontop-0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 112-133 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
Jellicent-0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 135-159 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Registeel-Thunder Wave. Good luck sweeping when paralyzed
Rhyperior-16+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 145-172 (56.4 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also it can roar you out and that would be rather funny.
Slowking-0 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 154-183 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spiritomb-+1 0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 186-220 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also it can Will-O-Wisp.

Note King/others: These are all defensive spreads on relatively common RU walls(I believe I got every logical RU wall by usage listed but if you feel I missed one or some NU-usage wall has real relevance(like Lanturn) then let me know and I will calc for that too happily.

Also notice a common theme? This mon breaks stall wide open. With a lum it can set up on more but loses valuable power. It's an unsightly trade off. Against hyper offense/balance what can ant do? Doesn't seem like very much. it can set up on a few walls. And what else? Not exactly sturdy enough to live any sweepers' specially based hit. And a physical hit is going to cripple it a lot too, no?

Durant has a lot going for doing good damage but is not infallible. It CAN be outsped. With some chip on it before hand I showed in my first post a variety of quality mons can injure it either via outspeed(scarfers werent even calced for) or priority which Durant cant help against. I reiterate
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I wouldn't say that Durant is a one trick pony. It can also run choice band, which hits hard af and can afford to run both superpower and crunch to shit on things like cobalion and doublade respectively and even choice scarf if it wanted to (though I prefer cb; Durant is not that great of a cleaner because it loves to miss and I don't see it as that great of a revenge killer all that much but can work decently). S is definitely not for Durant though.
Edit: Actually adamant scarf Durant is still pretty damn good. Why was I thinking of jolly scarf durant? You mainly want to outspeed scarf base 90s like meleotta anyway and the extra power is useful. Though with mega sceptile, m pidgeot gone, and moltres being moltres, I still don't see scarf Durant all that amazing. Not to mention annoying misses...
 
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Ms. Sysbit said:
A one trick pony dependent on set up before being good is kinda not S rank imo. I support A/A+ but S is too good for it. I didn't exactly pick obscure mons or sets(mixed Houndoom is very good and while admittedly adamant nature was a mistake it is the same as if I had put lonely which is in fact a set people run.
Durant doesn't seem to be warping the tier. It's just a powerful set up sweeper with a great speed stat that's blind until it sets up. The only walls it can effectively set up on(barring holding a Lum Berry which would change the calcs entirely from a life orb set) are Aromatisse, Bronzong, and Cresselia. 2 walls in the whole tier. want a list of other walls wont let it set up successively and why? Here ya go in alphabetical order every RU viable walling mon
Alomomola-see above scald calcs plus chance to burn
Amoongus-Spore. +1 0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 124-147 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Aromatisse-mentioned as one it can
Bronzong-mentioned as one it can
Cobalion-112 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 121-144 (47 - 56%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Cresselia-mentioned as one it can set up on
Gastrodon-0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 144-171 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Golbat-8 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 99-117 (38.5 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hitmontop-0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 112-133 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
Jellicent-0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 135-159 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Registeel-Thunder Wave. Good luck sweeping when paralyzed
Rhyperior-16+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 145-172 (56.4 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also it can roar you out and that would be rather funny.
Slowking-0 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 154-183 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spiritomb-+1 0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 186-220 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also it can Will-O-Wisp.

Note King/others: These are all defensive spreads on relatively common RU walls(I believe I got every logical RU wall by usage listed but if you feel I missed one or some NU-usage wall has real relevance(like Lanturn) then let me know and I will calc for that too happily.

Also notice a common theme? This mon breaks stall wide open. With a lum it can set up on more but loses valuable power. It's an unsightly trade off. Against hyper offense/balance what can ant do? Doesn't seem like very much. it can set up on a few walls. And what else? Not exactly sturdy enough to live any sweepers' specially based hit. And a physical hit is going to cripple it a lot too, no?

Durant has a lot going for doing good damage but is not infallible. It CAN be outsped. With some chip on it before hand I showed in my first post a variety of quality mons can injure it either via outspeed(scarfers werent even calced for) or priority which Durant cant help against. I reiterate
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the mons you are stating get hurt by it's stabs lol they probably die to hustle and life orb boosted stab. hitmontop is rarely used on any team rn, cobalion dies to super power. all the mons you state are usually used on stall .-. golbat catches a rock slide, jellicent gets crunched, nobody uses gastro , lum berry can be used on durant. Hello? Come up with soething relevant nobody runs a team of slow mons. Btw that's offensive pivot cobalion. Durant has enough coverage to deal with most if not all the mons you have stated
 
Lol people are arguing against Durant in S-rank because of the bad accuracy of its moves yet Moltres is comfortably S-rank
 
Talpr0ne said:
Lol people are arguing against Durant in S-rank because of the bad accuracy of its moves yet Moltres is comfortably S-rank
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The thing is that Durant gets hit with a double whammy of accuracy loss with Hustle. It almost REQUIRES Hone Claws to avoid missing moves, which risks a turn for it to get knocked out or low enough to be knocked out. I can agree that Moltres doesn't use moves with the best Accuracy, but at least it doesn't have Hustle.
 
MisterFinch said:
The thing is that Durant gets hit with a double whammy of accuracy loss with Hustle. It almost REQUIRES Hone Claws to avoid missing moves, which risks a turn for it to get knocked out or low enough to be knocked out. I can agree that Moltres doesn't use moves with the best Accuracy, but at least it doesn't have Hustle.
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The accuracy of Hurricane is worse than that of every move that Durant learns except Rock Slide and Stone Edge even when taking Hustle into account. That of Fire Blast is only marginally better(85% vs 80). Moreover at least Durant has an option to fix its accuracy, Moltres doesn't even have that(wide lens lol).
Note that I don't necessarily agree with S-rank Durant, I'm just pointing out that it's pretty dumb to not put the ant in S-rank because of its bad accuracy when a Pokémon with worse accuracy is already S rank.
 
My point was you can't set up as easily as you claim. But if every wall pretty much not being set up fodder, a variety of options against even a set up Durant, and showing it is prohibitively difficult to set up with(and useless until then) are all irrelevant points than I give up. You clearly have no desire to listen to any argument contrary to your view. Durant is easy to chip at as it sets up(if it even gets a chance) and can then be avenge killed.
 
Ms. Sysbit said:
My point was you can't set up as easily as you claim. But if every wall pretty much not being set up fodder, a variety of options against even a set up Durant, and showing it is prohibitively difficult to set up with(and useless until then) are all irrelevant points than I give up. You clearly have no desire to listen to any argument contrary to your view. Durant is easy to chip at as it sets up(if it even gets a chance) and can then be avenge killed.
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you set up on things you scare out and frankly sometimes you can get a kill if they have nothing to switch in or if you predict a counter and hit it with you coverage.
EX: moltres coming in when you have a durant against there specs rotom-C and you go for rock slide and gets a kill
 
KIngt9722 said:
the mons you are stating get hurt by it's stabs lol they probably die to hustle and life orb boosted stab. hitmontop is rarely used on any team rn, cobalion dies to super power. all the mons you state are usually used on stall .-. golbat catches a rock slide, jellicent gets crunched, nobody uses gastro , lum berry can be used on durant. Hello? Come up with soething relevant nobody runs a team of slow mons. Btw that's offensive pivot cobalion. Durant has enough coverage to deal with most if not all the mons you have stated
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so as much as i want to run hone claws | iron head | crunch | superpower | rock slide | x-scissor with life orb and lum berry, not sure thats a possibility.

i think S is reserved for pokemon that have a profound influence on the metagame. durant simply isnt nearly as influential as panda, cress, or tres. and tbf i cant see how durant is panda with more speed lol, durant has actual checks on slower teams like camel, bigpig, weezing, etc. while panda has very limited answers and better stab coverage.

but since you seem so adamant about durant being s material, ill just end off with this. viability rankings exist to show the effectiveness of pokemon in the tier, not pokemon you like to use. your ideal viability rankings might be different but that doesnt mean they're the correct ones.
 
The Bravest Bird said:
so as much as i want to run hone claws | iron head | crunch | superpower | rock slide | x-scissor with life orb and lum berry, not sure thats a possibility.

i think S is reserved for pokemon that have a profound influence on the metagame. durant simply isnt nearly as influential as panda, cress, or tres. and tbf i cant see how durant is panda with more speed lol, durant has actual checks on slower teams like camel, bigpig, weezing, etc. while panda has very limited answers and better stab coverage.

but since you seem so adamant about durant being s material, ill just end off with this. viability rankings exist to show the effectiveness of pokemon in the tier, not pokemon you like to use. your ideal viability rankings might be different but that doesnt mean they're the correct ones.
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ok so run a team with no durant check and see were that will get ya. durant gets super power as panda does and durant with band has more power than banda, hustle gives durant an atk around 450 more than panda if you want to be technical. It needs little help due to it's high speed and not weak to rocks like moltres. weezing is barely seen on stall camel:+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 338-398 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO nice check imo. I think it deserves S rank as it is a great wall breaker and is faster than most if not all viable mons or mons that are used a lot
 
A lot of high ranked Pokemon are Durant checks, so it would be hard to not run one. And Panda has STAB Superpower, as well as STAB Knock Off, a lot of good coverage moves, and it has a good offensive typing, unlike Durant. No one is denying that Durant is good, but it is just checked by sooo many things, its typing just attracts Will-O-Wisps users, and the fact it has no reliable move(unlike Moltres, who at least gets Flamethrower for stuff like SubRoost and whatever) leaves it in the A ranks. Id' be up for Durant to rise to A, but it is nowhere near S Rank material just yet.
 
Froggyboy said:
A lot of high ranked Pokemon are Durant checks, so it would be hard to not run one. And Panda has STAB Superpower, as well as STAB Knock Off, a lot of good coverage moves, and it has a good offensive typing, unlike Durant. No one is denying that Durant is good, but it is just checked by sooo many things, its typing just attracts Will-O-Wisps users, and the fact it has no reliable move(unlike Moltres, who at least gets Flamethrower for stuff like SubRoost and whatever) leaves it in the A ranks. Id' be up for Durant to rise to A, but it is nowhere near S Rank material just yet.
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what high ranked mons hello?? only mon is scarf moltres otherwise catch a rock slide. Panda catches a superpower from durant
 
Froggyboy said:
Rhyperior, Alomomola, Fletchinder, Emboar, Mega Steelix, Doublade, Moltres, Druddigon, Escavalier, need I go on?
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doublade gets crunched, rhyperior if s.def dies to iron head only scarf moltres can check it and that can be weakened by rocks, escav, +1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 324-381 (100 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO, +1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 322-380 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, i'm not addressing fletchinder because it's irrelevant, mola is a momentum killer rn and it's probably the only check, emboar needs scarf to check, please bring up some relevant checks, also what makes moltres so good?
it has more counter than this
 
Yo, Durant is definitely a pretty cool mon and has seen some SPL success recently, and I'd could see it moving up to A or A+ but I really don't think that it is S rank material. As other people have already stated, S rank is really deserved for Pokemon that "define the meta game" and while Durant is definitely a successful Pokemon in the metagame, it doesn't really warp the meta game around itself like any of the three S rank Pokemon. The Hone Claws set is alright, I personally really think it needs to use Lum Berry, but I'm sure Life Orb is pretty cool as well, however, I've seen you reference Durant as carrying Rock Slide, Superpower, and Crunch on this set, which is clearly not going to happen, it will be running 2 of these moves at most, so I really think you are overselling how hard it is to check this Pokemon. On top of this Durant isn't exactly the easiest Pokemon to set up in RU, having special bulk roughly equivalent to that of Jynx's physical bulk (read: no bulk), meaning if your opponent is at risk of being swept by Hone Claws Durant, they can always just attack cause even resisted Special hits are doing around 50% to Durant. Hone Claws Durant really struggles to get more than one or two kills in a match against Balanced teams as well, as they often carry Choice Scarf Pokemon capable of revenge killing Durant (or at least something fast like Jolteon). Stall teams will likely be carrying a Pokemon like Quagsire or Alomomola that are capable of hard checking (if not countering) Hone Claws Durant. I actually think that Durant's best set is Choice Scarf with Baton Pass or with just 4 attacks, as it is really hard for offensive teams to deal with.

Basically while I agree Durant is a good Pokemon, and that Hone Claws has pretty good match ups with most playstyles, but it isn't exactly that hard to take into account when team building, so while it should move up, S rank is a stretch imo.
 
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KIngt9722 said:
doublade gets crunched, rhyperior if s.def dies to iron head only scarf moltres can check it and that can be weakened by rocks, escav, +1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 324-381 (100 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO, +1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 322-380 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, i'm not addressing fletchinder because it's irrelevant, mola is a momentum killer rn and it's probably the only check, emboar needs scarf to check, please bring up some relevant checks, also what makes moltres so good?
it has more counter than this
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I'm going to make a guess and say that while Moltres is 4x Weak to rocks and suffers from Stealth Rocks, it has a decent bulk on both sides and a good HP Stat that gives it survivability outside that weakness (Bases: 90 HP, 90 DEF, and 85 SP DEF). Durant... is a glass cannon that would fall easily from any special attack or even a super effective physical Fire move (Bases: 50 HP, 112 DEF (Not too bad), and 48 SP DEF (Ouch on that one)). That turn of Hone Claws is actually a hazard for Durant and you require a switch or a Pokemon that can't absolutely destroy Durant during that turn of Hone Claws. Also, you either run Life Orb or Lum on Durant, forcing a decision of lower attack or being burned. As for Banded and Scarfed Durant, it's locked into a move with the lowered accuracy from Hustle, either putting it at risk of missing or having a Pokemon that can wall the attack switch in and scare Durant out. Durant does not want to switch out while Rocks are on the field either.

I'm going to have to say this, S-rank is honestly too high for Durant. I'm going to have to agree with everyone else and say that A or A+ would be the best spots for Durant in regards to viability
 
Well to break up this neverending durant discussion I would like to nominate Escavalier to drop to A- or B+. I think it is safe to say that the main reason Escav was ranked so high was its ability to check Dragalge and Mega Sceptile as well as Mega Pidgeot to a lesser extent, as well as checking CM psychics and supporting Pokemon like Pidgeot and Sceptile well. Now that Mega Sceptile, Pidgeot, and Dragalge are gone, it has lost a huge part of its niche. It still does an amazing job as a pursuit trapper and check to CM psychics, but its low speed and the fact that it is extremely easy to prey on with all the fighting types that have gotten much better with this past shift lead me to believe Escav doesn't cut it as an A rank mon anymore.
 
KIngt9722 said:
ok so run a team with no durant check and see were that will get ya. durant gets super power as panda does and durant with band has more power than banda, hustle gives durant an atk around 450 more than panda if you want to be technical. It needs little help due to it's high speed and not weak to rocks like moltres. weezing is barely seen on stall camel:+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 338-398 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO nice check imo. I think it deserves S rank as it is a great wall breaker and is faster than most if not all viable mons or mons that are used a lot
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ok imma try to present all my arguments against durant for S in a calm manner and in an unprovocative and professional one

Here lies the opinionated reasoning for why I believe durant should not ascend to S-Rank

- Durant has some major problems setting up in my humble opinion.

So, you show all these calcs of +1 Durant whom I shall not deny boasts unparalleled power. Yet, I find a huge fault lying underneath this promising treat. When does Durant find a place to set this hone claws up? I'm not saying there are none, as I can think of a good two off the top of my head. Most Cresselia and forcing out Physical Abomasnow among other frail mons. Therein resides the problem I'd like to bring up, those are the only two I can think of. Most other pokemon have enough firepower to throw a large dent in Durant's seemingly hard yet surprisingly squishy outer metal coat. Most mons that outspeed durant are able to kill him, and most that he outspeeds are able to take a hit and kill him back. I would like to see some places in which he sets up that I might have missed, so if you could provide those, please do!

- Durant has accuracy-deficiency-syndrome, which is a double-edged sword.

Durant has accuracy problems because of hustle that can only be properly remedied by hone claws, which I discussed in the above paragraph, and can cost you games. Yes, Moltres has the same problems, but it has so many more positives to work off of. In the case of CB and CS durant, inaccuracy can stop you from wallbreaking or revenging.

- Durant has very terrible moves to be locked into in regards to Choice sets

Moltres and Durant's biggest difference lies here imo bar the whole setting up thing. Durant's moves are god-awful to be locked into compared to Moltres's:

Moltres locked into:
Fire Blast: Free switch to Alomomola, Slowking, Druddigon, Rhyperior, and none bar rhyperior/ kinda slowking are commonly seen setting up
Hurricane: Free switch into Rhyperior, and many electric types

Cons of being locked into these: Potential/Rare Setup/Giving Momentum to electric types w/ volt switch and walls get potential to recover

Durant being locked into move.move
Superpower: Free switch into Doublade, Spiritomb, Reuniclus, Cresselia, Golbat, Alomomola
Crunch: Free Switch into Pangoro, Cobalion, Emboar, Alomomola
Iron Head: Free Switch into Registeel, Magneton, Alomomola, Quagsire, Slowking
Rock Slide: Free switch into Registeel, Magneton, Cobalion, Rhyperior, Doublade, Quagsire, Alomomola

Cons of being locked into these: Extremely dangerous setup sweepers get free chances to setup, Extremely dangerous wallbreakers get a chance to wallbreak, and walls get free recovery or wishes off.

In terms of why Moltres defines the meta:

- Moltres's defining Life Orb Wallbreaking set's fire blast and hurricane put huge dents in a wide majority of the metagame, it's powerful, and can fill a variety of roles within the metagame, both offensively and defensively.
- Moltres has a great Choice scarf set which is used as a swift yet powerful revenge killer with it's amazing STABs and U-turn
- Moltres has a very potent SubRoost Set versus more balanced and defensive builds which is able to PP Stall extremely well and put pressure on common clerics because of the general slower nature of these teams/mons

I hope you found this useful n_n

If I missed anything or misspoke please feel free to correct me, it's been a short while since I've played RU

edit: o btw other than that durant is rly good and if it isnt A already it should be
 
GlassGlaceon said:
ok imma try to present all my arguments against durant for S in a calm manner and in an unprovocative and professional one

Here lies the opinionated reasoning for why I believe durant should not ascend to S-Rank

- Durant has some major problems setting up in my humble opinion.

So, you show all these calcs of +1 Durant whom I shall not deny boasts unparalleled power. Yet, I find a huge fault lying underneath this promising treat. When does Durant find a place to set this hone claws up? I'm not saying there are none, as I can think of a good two off the top of my head. Most Cresselia and forcing out Physical Abomasnow among other frail mons. Therein resides the problem I'd like to bring up, those are the only two I can think of. Most other pokemon have enough firepower to throw a large dent in Durant's seemingly hard yet surprisingly squishy outer metal coat. Most mons that outspeed durant are able to kill him, and most that he outspeeds are able to take a hit and kill him back. I would like to see some places in which he sets up that I might have missed, so if you could provide those, please do!

- Durant has accuracy-deficiency-syndrome, which is a double-edged sword.

Durant has accuracy problems because of hustle that can only be properly remedied by hone claws, which I discussed in the above paragraph, and can cost you games. Yes, Moltres has the same problems, but it has so many more positives to work off of. In the case of CB and CS durant, inaccuracy can stop you from wallbreaking or revenging.

- Durant has very terrible moves to be locked into in regards to Choice sets

Moltres and Durant's biggest difference lies here imo bar the whole setting up thing. Durant's moves are god-awful to be locked into compared to Moltres's:

Moltres locked into:
Fire Blast: Free switch to Alomomola, Slowking, Druddigon, Rhyperior, and none bar rhyperior/ kinda slowking are commonly seen setting up
Hurricane: Free switch into Rhyperior, and many electric types

Cons of being locked into these: Potential/Rare Setup/Giving Momentum to electric types w/ volt switch and walls get potential to recover

Durant being locked into move.move
Superpower: Free switch into Doublade, Spiritomb, Reuniclus, Cresselia, Golbat, Alomomola
Crunch: Free Switch into Pangoro, Cobalion, Emboar, Alomomola
Iron Head: Free Switch into Registeel, Magneton, Alomomola, Quagsire, Slowking
Rock Slide: Free switch into Registeel, Magneton, Cobalion, Rhyperior, Doublade, Quagsire, Alomomola

Cons of being locked into these: Extremely dangerous setup sweepers get free chances to setup, Extremely dangerous wallbreakers get a chance to wallbreak, and walls get free recovery or wishes off.

In terms of why Moltres defines the meta:

- Moltres's defining Life Orb Wallbreaking set's fire blast and hurricane put huge dents in a wide majority of the metagame, it's powerful, and can fill a variety of roles within the metagame, both offensively and defensively.
- Moltres has a great Choice scarf set which is used as a swift yet powerful revenge killer with it's amazing STABs and U-turn
- Moltres has a very potent SubRoost Set versus more balanced and defensive builds which is able to PP Stall extremely well and put pressure on common clerics because of the general slower nature of these teams/mons

I hope you found this useful n_n

If I missed anything or misspoke please feel free to correct me, it's been a short while since I've played RU

edit: o btw other than that durant is rly good and if it isnt A already it should be
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but the thing is moltres's moves are low in accuracy too and tbh i don't mind being locked into a move that brings in something for free and on choiced sets they can run baton pass. If you don't have a durant check then you might as well give the person the game imo, it is blind but it may as well be called the same as moltres but faster and a physical attacker.
Durant Pros:
-Hits pretty hard without a boost and band sets have great power and they'd have to take a guess on whether or not you are the standard Hone claws set.
-112 defense means it can actually live physical hits and allows it to get a hone claws on a lot of mons such as lead cobalion, the now known crustle, golbat and sometimes registeel
- Has a great move pool that it can choose from (it can use other mons to cover it's weaknesses if anything)
Cons:
- hustle lessens it's accuracy making all of it's moves under 80% accuracy
- low s.def

compared to moltres
where as moltres counts on a hurricane 70% accuarcy less accuracy than durant's stabs and rock slide, scarfed sets do one thing which is utilize it's stabs and carries u-turn, LO sets utilize it's high s.atk but it's till 90 base speed which is pretty slow. I think most teams have a bulky water which can pretty much deal with it.
What mons outspeed durant that are used that aren't scarfed i have played on ladder for over 50 games and haven't seens any use of jolteon or accelgor. scarf sets are also god revenge killers and can clean up nicely
tbh moltres's only set rn is scarf which has a lack of recovery and it's quad rock weakness makes it awful. A slow tier in which durant can eat through is what it really needs, this meta is where it will shine
 
Cacturne said:
Well to break up this neverending durant discussion I would like to nominate Escavalier to drop to A- or B+. I think it is safe to say that the main reason Escav was ranked so high was its ability to check Dragalge and Mega Sceptile as well as Mega Pidgeot to a lesser extent, as well as checking CM psychics and supporting Pokemon like Pidgeot and Sceptile well. Now that Mega Sceptile, Pidgeot, and Dragalge are gone, it has lost a huge part of its niche. It still does an amazing job as a pursuit trapper and check to CM psychics, but its low speed and the fact that it is extremely easy to prey on with all the fighting types that have gotten much better with this past shift lead me to believe Escav doesn't cut it as an A rank mon anymore.
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why drop it, it seems like it still puts in a lot of work rn, it traps ghost which are all over the tier due to the rise in spinners and lose in the best defogger (gligar), I think that it's main thing was checking dragalge but now it has found another job it seems to do fine. It can be a good partner with fighting types to weaken counter and such with pursuit.
 
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