np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[YerTheBestAROUND]

From what I've heard a good amount of people having trouble with Mega Metagross are using offense teams. In fact I've been seeing so many offensive teams in OU lately anyway. Maybe Offense just isn't the right way to go around MegaMeta.
Guys this thing isn't Greninja. It has a pretty sizable list of checks and even some counters, which Greninja didn't have any that could do anything back to it.
And as has been said before, a lot of the 'mons that can 2HKO Metagross just need a little extra damage to get the job done. What could do that? I dunno maybe Stealth Rocks (even if it's just a little), Spikes, Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs and potential Rocky Helmet, Burn gets off damage and cripples it. MegaMeta isn't unbeatable, it can certainly be a little tricky but it's entirely possible. Unless I see something here that convinces me otherwise, once/if I find the time to get the reqs I'm going no ban.

 

[silver97]

gonna post my thoughts on this one.
I guess we all agree that mega metagross is absurdly strong and has an insanely wide movepool that almost leaves it with no real counters. however what i'm seeing most people who are against ban say is that we play a meta full of this overpowered things that break everything with just their stabs and mmeta is just another one of them; well, i agree that this thing isn't broken like other previous banned mons were, it's not mega mence broken, but probably not even mega lucario broken, and i also agree that we already deal with a lot of powerhouses that with right coverage moves can easily clean up a team; the point with mmeta is that not only if you don't have a slowking or a bulky zor you risk getting raped on the switch, but it also boasts great speed and bulk, with a fairly solid defensive typing that leaves it with 4 weaknesses but also good resistances, which means that even if you manage to not get smashed by the first hit you'll probably get outsped in the second turn and will have to eat up another attack to be able to deal damage, or if you outspeed it you'll hardly have a move to threaten it with a straight KO. For these reasons i think metagross is a bit too much to handle for this metagame and therefore it deserves the ban

 

[Norne]

I agree with you, but the argument is not a matter of using broken to beat broken, it's a matter of whether giving Mega Metagross the boot results in a shittier metagame.

It doesn't feel shittier, some minor cores gained a bit more relevance to be honest. Once the new toy fairy syndrome settles the meta feels a bit more balanced, but again it's my humble opinion on a small sample size.

From what I've heard a good amount of people having trouble with Mega Metagross are using offense teams. In fact I've been seeing so many offensive teams in OU lately anyway. Maybe Offense just isn't the right way to go around MegaMeta.
Guys this thing isn't Greninja. It has a pretty sizable list of checks and even some counters, which Greninja didn't have any that could do anything back to it.
And as has been said before, a lot of the 'mons that can 2HKO Metagross just need a little extra damage to get the hob done. What could do that? I dunno maybe Stealth Rocks (even if it's just a little), Spikes, Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs and potential Rocky Helmet, Burn gets off damage and cripples it. MegaMeta isn't unbeatable, it can certainly be a little tricky but it's entirely possible. Unless I see something here that convinces me otherwise, once/if I find the time to get the reqs I'm going no ban.

The point stands in wich every meta shouldn't be constrained on the basis of wich team archetype or strategic follow up one chooses , with the argument of hyper offence suffering one could argue that mega lopunny should be suspect tested as its the bane of many HO teams. However Metagross is far more easy to staple and capitalize than loppuny wich makes it a more obvious suspect with some big strains on switching in and revenge killing him by virtue of its typing and bulk.

Again I'm leaning towards ban from my experience, but your argument holds valid points, if anything this feels like one of the most civilized discussion on a suspect test so far since this pretty much is an select argumentation of what kind of metagame we desire instead of the inherent exploitable traits of the Pokemon being subject to the suspect test process.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

I'll keep this short and sweet.

Mega Meta is on the cusp of uber material. It's not flat out broken because it does have counters and switch-in's. Also, it can't reliably boost its attack.
However, my problem with metagross is that Scarf Heatran is the only thing (non mega) that can reliably OHKO Mega Meta from full health (stealth rock not included). Folks, not even fully invested adamant Lando-T can reliably OHKO Meta. With 12 Def investment, Life Orb Adamant Bisharp Sucker Punch doesn't even OHKO. Life Orb Excadrill can do the job, but it requires sand.

So in short, this thing has a built in focus sash.

That's what breaks it for me. There is literally nothing unboosted that says "GUARANTEED OHKO" against Mega-Metagross.

We're all competitive battlers here, so I don't need to go over why having a Focus Sash is so clutch.

 

[Terminate421]

We need to get one thing straight, and this isn't directed at you as much as it is everyone else, but when we suspect a mon, we are looking at that Pokemon, and solely that pokemon. Not previous suspects. The problem with MegaGross is the fact you have to prepare for it, otherwise you've lost, and yes, there are some checks to it, much like Ninja, no one here is denying this. However, to sit here and say with a straight face, that MegaGross does not centralize the metagame, is plain wrong. We need to stop looking at Pokemon that are ban worthy as being required to be broken. Because many peoples idea of what makes something broken is different. But no one here can honestly deny that MegaGross is centralizing as all hell. THAT is unhealthy for the meta, that is what gets a lot of Pokemon suspected, and that is what ultimately decides what stays and what goes.

"You have to prepare for it"

That would mean I should prepare for Talonflame, or Rotom-W, or Keldeo, or Landorus-I. I'm already doing that, aren't I? How on earth is Mega-Metagross any different?

Its time I came in on this issue myself, we're looking into a pokemon that is extremely bulky and capable of dealing out massive damage while at a somewhat decent speed within the 100-110 tier. This effectively gives it very ideal speed to work with along with ideal bulk to back it up. A massive physical attack stat is very nice, however, look at what it's hitting people with, at best it's a shaky 90% accuracy attack that lowers its speed upon use. The damn thing is powerful but it's attacks on their own are not, the hax actually working both ways behind them as all the attacks M-metagross are given are very much miss capable.

We're dealing with a Pokemon that can dish out plenty of hits, but unless ideal conditions are set, it doesn't often seem to 1HKO things (People are posting calcs willy-nilly on this thread), most of the pokemon in OU are fit to handle this thing anyway, and it has literally 0 recovery options. Boosting is limited to agility and hone claws, so all that's left are it's coverage moves.

The one argument I am seeing alot of is the 4MSS, it cannot cover everything like Greninja could. That means some sort of type of pokemon will be able to laugh in its face as it plucks away at it.

So far, I've been mix/matching with Empoleon, Starmie, and Skarmory to see what could fight back and all three of them are dependent on what move-set it runs. Like literally every other pokemon.

If they have the move set that is meant to kill one of the pokemon such as Hammer Arm on Skarmory or Earthquake on Empoleon. Dammit, might as well hit them with something else. Now its gone when I switch in and hit it with something else that resists all of it's coverage moves.

DO NOT BAN

Meta-metagross is powerful, relatively fast, and bulky, however it's movepool isn't so widespread that it's unpredictable, it cannot run everything at one time so there are flaws, and on top of that it's actual power behind those attacks is limited. It has an Achilles heel in the form of it's coverage and attack power.

 

[skillzfodayz]

From what I've heard a good amount of people having trouble with Mega Metagross are using offense teams. In fact I've been seeing so many offensive teams in OU lately anyway. Maybe Offense just isn't the right way to go around MegaMeta.
Guys this thing isn't Greninja. It has a pretty sizable list of checks and even some counters, which Greninja didn't have any that could do anything back to it.
And as has been said before, a lot of the 'mons that can 2HKO Metagross just need a little extra damage to get the job done. What could do that? I dunno maybe Stealth Rocks (even if it's just a little), Spikes, Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs and potential Rocky Helmet, Burn gets off damage and cripples it. MegaMeta isn't unbeatable, it can certainly be a little tricky but it's entirely possible. Unless I see something here that convinces me otherwise, once/if I find the time to get the reqs I'm going no ban.

I don't think you understand. the problem is isnt the teams, is the fact that megagross can legit shut down almost every version of a time. u mention hazards, ferro, burn, etc etc etc. what ive seen a lot of arguements its essentially, megagross vs a whole team, rather than a team with megagross vs another team.
a lot of arguements against a ban that i see is that some mons can stop gross, but honestly, with just some teammates, they can be shut down. for example, u can have either skarm or ferro as ur check to megagross, but those two are completely shut down if the opponent has magnezone in the team, or carries heatran, etc etc. u can have hazards set up, but w/ defog, all ur spikes, SR, are gone (and with lati@s, drill, and other hazard removers quite popular). and even with burn, there's cleric support and healing wish from latias.
the point is, megagross is capable of doing its job against pretty much any play style. and honestly, a defensive team would be too passive.
my point is, megaross is good, and while its not like megamence in which case can destory everything alone, it requires VERY small team support. by the time u take out megagross, ur team will either be heavily damaged, or have a lot a few mons, if not more.

 

[Terminate421]

I don't think you understand. the problem is isnt the teams, is the fact that megagross can legit shut down almost every version of a time. u mention hazards, ferro, burn, etc etc etc. what ive seen a lot of arguements its essentially, megagross vs a whole team, rather than a team with megagross vs another team.
a lot of arguements against a ban that i see is that some mons can stop gross, but honestly, with just some teammates, they can be shut down. for example, u can have either skarm or ferro as ur check to megagross, but those two are completely shut down if the opponent has magnezone in the team, or carries heatran, etc etc. u can have hazards set up, but w/ defog, all ur spikes, SR, are gone (and with lati@s, drill, and other hazard removers quite popular). and even with burn, there's cleric support and healing wish from latias.
the point is, megagross is capable of doing its job against pretty much any play style. and honestly, a defensive team would be too passive.
my point is, megaross is good, and while its not like megamence in which case can destory everything alone, it requires VERY small team support. by the time u take out megagross, ur team will either be heavily damaged, or have a lot a few mons, if not more.

But with that argument, you could apply that to literally any strong pokemon.

If I took out your mega-Gallade and your Sylveon, this potentially leaves me wide open to try to set up a sweep with Mega-Tyranitar without too much fear. We're at a thin line on whether Mega-gross is too powerful, however it's honestly not too broken. It does require team support, like literally anything else.

 

[silver97]

Meta-metagross is powerful, relatively fast, and bulky, however it's movepool isn't so widespread that it's unpredictable, it cannot run everything at one time so there are flaws, and on top of that it's actual power behind those attacks is limited. It has an Achilles heel in the form of it's coverage and attack power.

it actually does not since especially when talking about the STABs+hammer arm+grass knot all out attacker set i can't think of any other thing that can safely switch into it without being 2HKOed beyond slowking and bulky megazor

 

[skillzfodayz]

But with that argument, you could apply that to literally any strong pokemon.

If I took out your mega-Gallade and your Sylveon, this potentially leaves me wide open to try to set up a sweep with Mega-Tyranitar without too much fear. We're at a thin line on whether Mega-gross is too powerful, however it's honestly not too broken. It does require team support, like literally anything else.

that is true, any strong mon can sweep once it's checks/counters are gone. my point is that megagross can do this so well due to it having limiting checks/counters that can either beat/wall megagross all the time, and most mons are more set dependent. i think megagross can kinda be similar to greninja, while its movepool isnt as big, with the amount of moves it could have, going against thing is extremely difficult.

 

[teal6]

So far, I've been mix/matching with Empoleon, Starmie, and Skarmory to see what could fight back and all three of them are dependent on what move-set it runs. Like literally every other pokemon.

Try Cofagrigus. Takes 43.5% on a max roll from Meteor Mash, makes him lose Tough Claws, can burn on the following turn or Pain Split or do 50% with Shadow Ball. Is a pretty decent physical wall and can spread solid burns.

Other options I'm thinking might work that are outside the copy-paste straight-from-dex mons:

Bold Klefki with Magnet Rise. Can T-Wave, Spikes support in addition to reflect. Magnet Rise is a great way to get rid of one of the two SEs on Klef, T-Wave on Megagross cripples him for pretty much any revenger.

Mega Aggron laughs at everything Megagross tries to do. He's a good physical tank, can set SR, stops bird spam, etc.

Mega Blastoise can take a grass knot + any other move, and has a 30 something % change to OHKO from full: 252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 272-320 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO. Can function as a spinner, deal out a solid amount of special damage, etc.

Defensive Rotom-H gets like, 5HKOd and can OHKO back. Can also work against bird spam, spreading willows, etc.

Alomolomomaoam is another defensive mon that can spam scald, toxic, wish pass, and has regenerator and is 4HKOd.

Bronzong wins 1v1 as well. Has screens, explosion, SR, etc.

I think the metagame needs more time to settle, honestly. Salamence was an obvious one. Greninja a bit more contentious. But frankly, Megagross has counters, has plenty of checks. He can be played around and cannot patch his movepool to the same degree ninja did. He's not broken. But it feels like, reading some comments, that if the counter or the check isn't listed immediately in the OU viability rankings B+ or above it is dismissed immediately as "niche". To me, that is a silly way of thinking. Because the only thing really that makes certain mons less niche than others is how they work against the rest. I went through just a few above, and just IMO everything listed can function in a solid role in OU while still beating Megagross or otherwise providing extreme team utility (Klefki).

I said it before but the entire point of a metagame is to evolve around itself. I'll compare this to the Salamence ban again. Sally had almost no checks, the ones he did have had very little use to the rest of the team. They were SOLELY Salamence checks. P2 and Avalugg. That is what made him broken, because you had to carry dead weight on your team in any other situation to beat him. However, I believe that the examples listed above all have a good amount of use that ISN'T JUST checking/countering Mega Metagross. To me that is the biggest difference. I think the real question should be "does the suspected mon have counters or checks that are not dead weight in usage otherwise?" and not what it seems to be for much of the discussion, "do I like playing against this?"

 

[Merritt]

it actually does not since especially when talking about the STABs+hammer arm+grass knot all out attacker set i can't think of any other thing that can safely switch into it without being 2HKOed beyond slowking and bulky megazor

Victini with Leftovers is 4HKOed with zero defensive investment. It can also OHKO back with either Blue Flare or V-Create with minimal investment.

It does this to any set bar EQ, so a team of Ferrothorn, Slowbro, and Victini does, in fact, beat all variants of Metagross. This isn't the argument you want to use, however, since it is essentially saying you need three Pokemon to beat Gross when that's not the case at all.

 

[oryxslayer]

Try Cofagrigus. Takes 43.5% on a max roll from Meteor Mash, makes him lose Tough Claws, can burn on the following turn or Pain Split or do 50% with Shadow Ball. Is a pretty decent physical wall and can spread solid burns.

Other options I'm thinking might work that are outside the copy-paste straight-from-dex mons:

Bold Klefki with Magnet Rise. Can T-Wave, Spikes support in addition to reflect. Magnet Rise is a great way to get rid of one of the two SEs on Klef, T-Wave on Megagross cripples him for pretty much any revenger.

Mega Aggron laughs at everything Megagross tries to do. He's a good physical tank, can set SR, stops bird spam, etc.

Mega Blastoise can take a grass knot + any other move, and has a 30 something % change to OHKO from full: 252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 272-320 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO. Can function as a spinner, deal out a solid amount of special damage, etc.

Defensive Rotom-H gets like, 5HKOd and can OHKO back. Can also work against bird spam, spreading willows, etc.

Alomolomomaoam is another defensive mon that can spam scald, toxic, wish pass, and has regenerator and is 4HKOd.

Bronzong wins 1v1 as well. Has screens, explosion, SR, etc.

I think the metagame needs more time to settle, honestly. Salamence was an obvious one. Greninja a bit more contentious. But frankly, Megagross has counters, has plenty of checks. He can be played around and cannot patch his movepool to the same degree ninja did. He's not broken. But it feels like, reading some comments, that if the counter or the check isn't listed immediately in the OU viability rankings B+ or above it is dismissed immediately as "niche". To me, that is a silly way of thinking. Because the only thing really that makes certain mons less niche than others is how they work against the rest. I went through just a few above, and just IMO everything listed can function in a solid role in OU while still beating Megagross or otherwise providing extreme team utility (Klefki).

I said it before but the entire point of a metagame is to evolve around itself. I'll compare this to the Salamence ban again. Sally had almost no checks, the ones he did have had very little use to the rest of the team. They were SOLELY Salamence checks. P2 and Avalugg. That is what made him broken, because you had to carry dead weight on your team in any other situation to beat him. However, I believe that the examples listed above all have a good amount of use that ISN'T JUST checking/countering Mega Metagross. To me that is the biggest difference. I think the real question should be "does the suspected mon have counters or checks that are not dead weight in usage otherwise?" and not what it seems to be for much of the discussion, "do I like playing against this?"

While personally I don't think mega metagross should be banned, Many of those pokemon you listed are either hardly viable or very gimmicky. Cofagrigus, while able to stop some of our physically oriented suspects (one of the kangaskhan "counters,"), is barely usable in ou. It is outclassed as a physical wall in OU and only really used on trick room teams. Mega aggron/Mega blastoise are both subpar megas in ou, aggron having no recovery and blastoise being outclassed as a spinner/special attacker. Magnet rise klefki is used, and has use outside of beating one threat, but if you reveal magnet rise early or megagross lacks EQ and just straight up goes for meteor mash, your klefki will get 2HKOed. Defensive rotom-h is pretty bad in ou, and rotom-W is the superior pokemon, meaning that it will be used more. Both are 2HKOed by Zen headbutt from megagross after a bit of prior damage though. Alomomola and bronzong are both viable switch-ins, but are both pokes used commonly on stall, and are dead weight on offense/balance, same with most of greninja's "checks." While megagross does have his checks/switch-ins, the pokes you listed aren't really that viable except on a few teams, and some are outright niche pokes (cofagrigus), proving the argument that it is broken by having only niche or highly rare checks.

 

[haxiom]

Just a disclaimer: I'm not particularly good at OU (as primarily an Ubers player), and thus my understanding of the tier may be limited to an extent; as such, feel free to correct me should I be wrong regarding anything. However, I would like to make a few points about Metagross (before I forget, like with Greninja u.u). Also, sorry if I reiterate points which have already been drilled over and over, I haven't read every single post here.

I believe Metagross to be quite a centralizing force in the OU metagame. The reason is quite clear: 110 Base Speed is fast enough to outspeed a lot of the unboosted OU metagame and be a major threat, 145 Attack, further boosted by Tough Claws giving an effective LO without recoil, allows it to hit stuff ridiculously hard, and its bulk is nothing to laugh at- 80 / 150 / 110 coupled with a typing which grants it 9 resistances and an immunity is great and allows a lot of longevity, which fast, strong Pokemon of its caliber often lack. It has superb coverage, with access to standard STAB moves like Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, plus Earthquake, Grass Knot, Ice Punch, Hammer Arm, and so on. When this all is totaled, there is a significant limit to the number of counters which exist. On the more viable side of checks, you see susceptibility to specific coverage moves, for example, Hippowdon loses to Grass Knot, and getting into more obscure counters leaves you with a niche mon and a very possibly awkward build.

There are a few specific points I want to make here, firstly pertaining to coverage. At the surface, it would seem two sided- on one hand, Metagross is incredibly hard to counter, on the other hand, it can't beat everything at the same time. However, I would like to assert here that this scenario is quite clearly in Metagross's favor. In scenario A, in which Metagross is not countered (e.g. brings Grass Knot vs Hippowdon), the player playing against Metagross simply loses- Metagross takes over the game, gets kills constantly, and is practically impossible to stop. However, in scenario B, where Metagross is countered (e.g. does not bring Grass Knot), the player playing against Metagross simply doesn't necessarily lose. The player with Metagross doesn't have an auto win, but it's not an automatic loss either, and Metagross might not even be dead weight, since it can still threaten things and check things. In this case, the player bringing Metagross does not need Grass Knot to win, but the player against Metagross needs his opponent to not have Grass Knot to not lose before the game begins. It's quite easy to see that this scenario is heavily in Metagross's favor.

Secondly, I'd like to make a quick comment on the "Metagross keeps the OU metagame from developing". I think this is a rather interesting philosophy, and I completely understand it and think it is applicable. By having a limited number of checks and counters, think of it sort of like this analogy. Let's say, I'm a chef. I want to develop my skills as a chef, but every dish I make has to have peanut butter. I'd have a really diverse menu, right? No, of course. And as such, my cooking skills would develop much slower than someone who did not have that restriction. Similarly, Metagross's presence forces either multiple checks or niche counters. Obviously, every Pokemon is going to put a restriction on teambuilding, as so is the nature of this game, but think of it like being forced to use a more easily usable ingredient than peanut butter- say, being restricted by Metagross is being forced to use peanut butter, whereas being restricted by some other less centralizing threat might be being forced to use salt or something, which can be used in a much wider range of dishes. I get there are flaws in this analogy, but the point should be clear enough.

Alright, those are my quick thoughts. I'll be voting to ban if I can get around to the testing.

 

[Patolegend!]

it actually does not since especially when talking about the STABs+hammer arm+grass knot all out attacker set i can't think of any other thing that can safely switch into it without being 2HKOed beyond slowking and bulky megazor

Jirachi, Bronzong, Klefki (with Reflect), Cresselia (although it can only t-wave back), Skarm, Suicune...

There are a host of mon's that can switch into one move though. For example, a Meta against Ferro is always going to Hammer Arm, as it doesn't want to get hit with the iron barbs and leech seed damage as it puts it within range of Bisharp and Scarf Lando.

Victini with Leftovers is 4HKOed with zero defensive investment. It can also OHKO back with either Blue Flare or V-Create with minimal investment.

It does this to any set bar EQ, so a team of Ferrothorn, Slowbro, and Victini does, in fact, beat all variants of Metagross. This isn't the argument you want to use, however, since it is essentially saying you need three Pokemon to beat Gross when that's not the case at all.

You're actually saying that a good FWG core beats metagross among other mons, not that you absolutely need three 'mons to check it.

 

[procrastinat]

I've seen some arguments regarding Metagross's inability to boost it's Attack, the imperfect accuracy of some of it's moves, and that it can't outright KOcertain pokemon with it's raw attack stat. There is a move that patches up all of those flaws, Hone Claws. I can't say how well a hone claws set would perform because I've never used it on Metagross (Nor can I test it now because there is no OU ladder where Gross is legal), but Megagross does have all of the capabilities to use it well: High Attack, great speed tier, STABs that don't have perfect accuracy, and the bulk to take a hit and set up a boost or two.

The sheer amount of options this thing has coupled with it's titanic stats simply push it over the edge over for me.

 

[Merritt]

I've seen some arguments regarding Metagross's inability to boost it's Attack, the imperfect accuracy of some of it's moves, and that it can't outright KOcertain pokemon with it's raw attack stat. There is a move that patches up all of those flaws, Hone Claws. I can't say how well a hone claws set would perform because I've never used it on Metagross (Nor can I test it now because there is no OU ladder where Gross is legal), but Megagross does have all of the capabilities to use it well: High Attack, great speed tier, STABs that don't have perfect accuracy, and the bulk to take a hit and set up a boost or two.

The sheer amount of options this thing has coupled with it's titanic stats simply push it over the edge over for me.

The question is which move are you giving up for Hone Claws, which is admittedly a fairly poor option for boosting as it goes. Grass Knot? Slowbro walls you to hell and burns you. Hammer Arm? Ferrothorn and Skarmory stop you cold. Earthquake? Victini counters. Ice Punch? Scarf Landorus checks until you get to +2.

Hone Claws doesn't provide enough immediate power to justify the loss of coverage. Agility is in a similar boat, but it allows Gross to at least get past Talonflame and always win dangerous speed ties (see: Gengar).

 

[silver97]

Jirachi, Bronzong, Klefki (with Reflect), Cresselia (although it can only t-wave back), Skarm, Suicune...
You're actually saying that a good FWG core beats metagross among other mons, not that you absolutely need three 'mons to check it.

skarm loses to hammer harm if it lacks counter, suicune is 2HKOed by GK after sr and klefki is beaten one of one (same with cresselia if you get some lucky boosts), while bronzong is quite rare and can be easily played around and jirachi can actually counter this set but it fears EQs. i don't deny that those are however decent answers but point is that there is almost nothing that can switch safely and threaten it out, most of these you nominated are passive mons that really have niches only on defensive teams and they often lose 1v1. And this is just one set we're talking about.

 

[BlueLobster]

Johnathan Day Hone Claws MegaGross is rather poor, it just makes it's 4MSS worse and allows checks a free switch in. It is one of those that's extremely good in theory, but worse in practice. You could use a hone claws set if you wanted, but that misses out on vital coverage and the speed to walk through most of HO that agility provides.

E: Greninja'd

 

[procrastinat]

I never stated Hone Claws was good, only that it could cover up some flaws that Metagross does not like having. I understand it's best set is the all out attacker. But regardless of how bad hone claws is, the point stands that Metagross is so versatile that it can adapt to whatever is thrown at it and remain extremely dangerous no matter how the metagame tries to answer it.

 

[skies]

Mega Metagross is an extremely good Pokemon, but I'm just not feeling that it's broke. Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm is excellent coverage with only Victini, Slowbro, Slowking, Starmie, and Doublade resisting it in OU (so does Delphox, but that's irrelevant). However, I heavily dislike Hammer Arm's side effect which seems to go overlooked. Hammer Arm forces Mega Metagross to switch out afterwards, bar when being used against Skarmory or Ferrothon (its main targets), but what does it do versus offense? Or balance, even? The only really common things are Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, and Excadrill, which then does force Mega Metagross out the next turn. Having -1 Speed is not very good, and leaves it prone to being revenge killed. But this isn't what makes me think it's not broken, I think it's more not-so-broken do to the terrible realization that Mega Metagross has to rely on inaccurate moves. All three of its most common moves are 90% accuracy, and that really sucks to miss late-game when you're trying to clean up with it.

There's another thing: Mega Metagross can't beat everything. Mega Metagross has Scizor (and its mega form), Mandibuzz, Mega Sableye, Gyarados (non-Mega, but can boost and then Crunch), Mega Slowbro (if lacking Grass Knot), Rotom-W, Jirachi, and Mew, with the only uncommon somewhat of these being Mandibuzz and Mew, but that doesn't mean they're bad. Mega Metagross shouldn't be expected to beat everything, I know, but these are common checks that can make their way on many teams and isn't exactly hard honestly. I don't think Mega Metagross is overcentralizing because of things like Scarf Landorus-T, the above checks, and Keldeo's Scald are on so many teams that a Mega Metagross check is going to be there. There's a post a few pages back about Mega Metagross not being centralized, so just look for that if you need more x_x.

My biggest gripe with Mega Metagross is the turn of Mega Evolving it takes for it to actually become a threat. Having a terrible 70 base Speed for a turn is a huge setback and prevents it from doing a lot in that one turn. Mega Metagross's bulk is also terrible pre-Mega Evolving, and its even worse with its bad typing. Steel / Psychic is bad and we know it, but it's a hinderance nonetheless. Because Mega Metagross's moves are low accuracy, it has multiple viable checks, and has a bad typing and Mega Evoltuion costs, I don't believe Mega Metagross deserves a ban and I will ladder to see how my thoughts are actually put into place n_n.

 

[silver97]

I never stated Hone Claws was good, only that it could cover up some flaws that Metagross does not like having. I understand it's best set is the all out attacker. But regardless of how bad hone claws is, the point stands that Metagross is so versatile that it can adapt to whatever is thrown at it and remain extremely dangerous no matter how the metagame tries to answer it.

yea hone claws may fix the flaws that were being listed, but at the cost of making metagross overall less effective by basically making metagross flawed in other, more important ways. i understood the point you were trying to make but hone claws is not and probably will never be a viable option over other more effective sets.

 

[Venoxio]

Mega Metagross is a monster. I'm not saying it's BROKEN, but it's extremely good. Tough Claws just makes it even better. Plus, it's main stab, Meteor Mash, has a chance to raise its beastly attack. It's speed and bulk also makes it almost unbearable. However, many checks wear it down. Most of these checks can't really do much damage to it though. I'd personally run Iron Defense on it all the time. Mega Slowbro really checks it, but it's so good, that doesn't matter. It usually has a teammate to kill it. Oh but Water types such as not specially defensive ones are stopped by Grass Knot. Hone Claws also can help with Meteor Mash. Hone Claws raises Attack and Accuracy by 1 stage. Combined with Meteor Mash, this is a very big threat. I think the metagame would be better if it went. Ban

 

[silver97]

Mega Metagross is an extremely good Pokemon, but I'm just not feeling that it's broke. Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm is excellent coverage with only Victini, Slowbro, Slowking, Starmie, and Doublade resisting it in OU (so does Delphox, but that's irrelevant). However, I heavily dislike Hammer Arm's side effect which seems to go overlooked. Hammer Arm forces Mega Metagross to switch out afterwards, bar when being used against Skarmory or Ferrothon (its main targets), but what does it do versus offense? Or balance, even? The only really common things are Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, and Excadrill, which then does force Mega Metagross out the next turn. Having -1 Speed is not very good, and leaves it prone to being revenge killed. But this isn't what makes me think it's not broken, I think it's more not-so-broken do to the terrible realization that Mega Metagross has to rely on inaccurate moves. All three of its most common moves are 90% accuracy, and that really sucks to miss late-game when you're trying to clean up with it.

There's another thing: Mega Metagross can't beat everything. Mega Metagross has Scizor (and its mega form), Mandibuzz, Mega Sableye, Gyarados (non-Mega, but can boost and then Crunch), Mega Slowbro (if lacking Grass Knot), Rotom-W, Jirachi, and Mew, with the only uncommon somewhat of these being Mandibuzz and Mew, but that doesn't mean they're bad. Mega Metagross shouldn't be expected to beat everything, I know, but these are common checks that can make their way on many teams and isn't exactly hard honestly. I don't think Mega Metagross is overcentralizing because of things like Scarf Landorus-T, the above checks, and Keldeo's Scald are on so many teams that a Mega Metagross check is going to be there. There's a post a few pages back about Mega Metagross not being centralized, so just look for that if you need more x_x.

My biggest gripe with Mega Metagross is the turn of Mega Evolving it takes for it to actually become a threat. Having a terrible 70 base Speed for a turn is a huge setback and prevents it from doing a lot in that one turn. Mega Metagross's bulk is also terrible pre-Mega Evolving, and its even worse with its bad typing. Steel / Psychic is bad and we know it, but it's a hinderance nonetheless. Because Mega Metagross's moves are low accuracy, it has multiple viable checks, and has a bad typing and Mega Evoltuion costs, I don't believe Mega Metagross deserves a ban and I will ladder to see how my thoughts are actually put into place n_n.

man hammer arm drops and miss chances aren't really issues and you can't compare those little problems to the amount of work it does. Ofc many of the mons you listed, if not every, can beat metagross if both at full life 1v1, but how many of them can safely switch into it?
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 148-175 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
it does NOT have any problem at mega evolving, i can say it from personal experience as i used it a lot, it forces such a huge amount of pokemon to switch that you'll rather easily get the mega evo for free; also i don't know why you say "bad typing", 9 resistances and 1 immunity seems kinda good to me, even if it has weaknesses to common types like fire ground or dark

 

[skies]

man hammer arm drops and miss chances aren't really issues and you can't compare those little problems to the amount of work it does. Ofc many of the mons you listed, if not every, can beat metagross if both at full life 1v1, but how many of them can safely switch into it?
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 148-175 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
it does NOT have any problem at mega evolving, i can say it from personal experience as i used it a lot, it forces such a huge amount of pokemon to switch that you'll rather easily get the mega evo for free; also i don't know why you say "bad typing", 9 resistances and 1 immunity seems kinda good to me, even if it has weaknesses to common types like fire ground or dark

Hammer Arm's drops and miss chances are certainly issues when you're going for a fast Pokemon to use heavy damage. That's a 3.1% chance on Mandibuzz, which is certainly unreliable. Your basis is that Stealth Rock is always going to be up, which is a good assumption, but how about when it's not? Then they remain checks, and it's not exactly the hardest thing to remove hazards. I've used it as well, and it does have trouble Mega Evolving because of the low Speed and typing. Those weaknesses are so common and that's the reason it's a bad typing.

 

[little_engine_that_culd]

Good evening everyone. I have been following Smogon for a few years now, Playing OU for the last year. This will be my first post because I am so passionate about OU tier and I love smogon so much and want OU to succeed and be a great place to battle Pokémon! If I am posting this in the wrong place I am sorry please do not crucify me like you did Greninja, (rest his froggy soul) I just love smogon! So lets get started about Mega Metagross I vote NO BAN. He is a freggin menace to the OU tier raping and pillaging half of the damn tier. But he is that way because you have structured the tier in a sense to cause him to be over powered even though he is the new average to top tier OU. I do feel that since X and Y Game feaks has made Pokémon a more powerful battling atmosphere. I also feel that with the future games to come out there will be many more powerful poke's like Aegislash, Mega Mawile, Mega Kan, Greninja (rest his froggy soul), Mega Metagross, Mega sableye, and even Blaziken. If you keep castrating these top tier Pocket Monsters its eventually going to turn OU into a soft-core experience like Little Cup.(There’s nothing wrong with Little Cup I love Azurill.) There will always be new additions to the game rendering there to be, a strong centralized Pokémon. Its the nature of the beast (666). Maybe you guys should consider making another format that isn't quite as extreme as Mega Mewtwo bending over the poor frog (rest his froggy soul) and stealing his child hood, I mean come on half these mon's can't stand a chance in Ubers. It would be a lot of work but I think you guys could make a fun tier where Mega Metagross and Frogman (rest his froggy soul) can frolic in a marshmellowey meadow of daisys together at last. Maybe even bring some of the lower level Ubers like Genesect and regular Mewtwo into it? Making a more hardcore Pokémon experience, but not ridiculousness like Uber. I put alot of effort into my very first post and I hope it can benefit many Pokémon Trainers like myself.