They're not similiar infact, I made a post about it and I'd like you to read because I address this point
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]
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they're not too differnet tbh, you said that greninja can off the bat ohko pokemon while metagross relies on it's duel stab. not too true, greninja has 103 spa which needs life orb support + protean to be at leaset significantly different to say a metagross's hammer arm. they are same in terms of how they roam the ou metagame, movepool and ability lolol
Um im sorry but how is gk megagross "as uncommon" as spdef slowbro? Have you every even used metagross? Faced one? I don't want to act rude or whatever but do put some truth behind your claims.
Yeah well CM Manaphy, the one with 252hp 240def 16 speed does sort of check metagross I guess.
Greninja could straight out OHKO more mons than Metagross, whilst Metagross struggles to get the OHKO straight away. It might do like 50-70 percent, but it's not OHKOing anything soon. Greninja also has protean boost + Life orb boost, 1.88 boost. Metagross has that as well. but only on its stabs, thus Greninja is over all more powerful than Metagross. NO ban please
Can we stop relying on prediction arguments here? 90% of ban arguments are saying something 2HKOs and assume that the opponent uses that move on the switch. In reality, it probably won't. I'm not saying no ban arguments are perfect about this either. Put this scenario together:
You switch in your specs Sylveon to deal with the opposing Conkeldurr. Your opponent predicts and sends in MMeta. You have a choice between smacking it with a SE move and switching to your check/counter, lets say Victini for the heck of it. Your opponent can try to predict and EQ and risk an SE hit or MM and risk Victini coming in and destroying it. The winner of this scenario is the one that predicts correctly over the 2 turns. You may even have Scarfed Victini, who IIRC can switch in as it is 2HKOed by EQ.
That's what pokemon is about, predicting. You can make a team that could get you to #1 if you can predict well, but if you can't predict you will probably be stuck around mid-high ladder. MMeta is as prediction based as any other, maybe moreso due to 4MSS.
You switch in your specs Sylveon to deal with the opposing Conkeldurr. Your opponent predicts and sends in MMeta. You have a choice between smacking it with a SE move and switching to your check/counter, lets say Victini for the heck of it. Your opponent can try to predict and EQ and risk an SE hit or MM and risk Victini coming in and destroying it. The winner of this scenario is the one that predicts correctly over the 2 turns. You may even have Scarfed Victini, who IIRC can switch in as it is 2HKOed by EQ.
That's what pokemon is about, predicting. You can make a team that could get you to #1 if you can predict well, but if you can't predict you will probably be stuck around mid-high ladder. MMeta is as prediction based as any other, maybe moreso due to 4MSS.
Prediction goes both ways, when claiming a check or counter you always account the best scenario for the player with the momentum and initiative, that's why we always factor the right choice on the switch in. With at least SR on the field.
Claiming otherwise is just technically whishlisting and undermining the true damage potential of an offensive pokemon.
I'm pretty sick of prediction arguments myself tbqh, so allow me to argue that mmeta doesn't need to.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 128-151 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 105-125 (30.7 - 36.6%) -- 66.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 236-278 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So mmeta comes in relatively safely into hyper voice. He doesn't like it to be sure, but most mons not named heatran don't and it's unlikely that the user has a better swap in. He goes for the obvious meteor mash like he should (because he can't afford to give sylveon a free attack), while his opponent swaps in victini. At this point, the mmeta user needs to guess whether his opponent is running scarf vectini or not. If it probably is scarf victini, then he just swaps out to his bulky fire resist (which every mmeta team should have for obvious reasons) and takes advantage of the fact that V is choice locked and will probably have to swap next turn. If V isn't scarfed, then he just EQs for an easy free kill (most Vs I see are banded).
Yes, there is still prediction involved here (it's friggen pokemon after all), but it's not a pure 50/50. Choice items are fairly easy to scout and you can frequently figure out whether or not something is scarfed from team preview or your opponent's behavior.
And before you say "well mmeta took 50% of his health from the swap in, so the user is at a disadvantage" note that most fairy type wallbreakers (which is absolutely what specs sylveon is), when given a free swap in, wreck offensive teams. I have seen RMTs that point blank say "If Mega Garde gets a free swap in, something dies", good ones too. MMeta taking only 50% of his health on swap while at the same time denting and potentially killing anything that swaps into it is something that offensive teams kill for. Therefore, if you're team is liable to give a mon like specs Sylveon a free swap in on a frequent basis, you probably shouldn't be relying on mmeta as your fairy counter, you need something sturdier. This has less to do with whether or not mmeta is broken and more to do with teambuilding stuff.
For the purposes of this argument though, I am assuming that the mmeta user is a competent teambuilder and is well aware of its strengths and weaknesses and can properly abuse them. If mmeta is broken on even one team, it is simply broken. It does not need to be broken on every team to be broken.
I was meaning the ban arguments saying it can 2HKO entire teams when in practicallity it doesn't due to the Meta user having to predict perfectly, CS users, 4MSS and other factors not taken into consideration. Of course when saying something checks/counters you use the worst case scenario, but you can't sat MMeta is OP 'cause if you pack the right coverage for that team and predict correctly you can sweep, as Bisharp/Megallade/Zard X etc does the same.
Having a lot of checks =/= not broken. Aegislash had a number of checks, but Aegis itself could be tweaked around to beat certain checks and leave the other checks to teammates, and its efficiency in doing so made it increasingly centralizing. Mega Gross may not be as centralizing as Aegislash, but just because it has common checks does not neuter it from being ban worthy, as checks are not foolproof counters.
Except for the fact that those common checks get worn away from checking him, making it real easy for the rest of the team to come along and sweep things up.
There has been plenty of calcs throughout this thread which show that its stronger checks still take considerable damage switching into Metagross, and Metagross can still potentially be carrying coverage to deal with these checks.
Checks don't usually get worn down, Landorus-T doesn't get worn down by checking Mega Metagross. In this situation Mega metagross has lost a little HP, so Equake is OHKOing. Landorus-T doesn't lose any health, it's free to check metagross, baring something with levitate comes in.
A counter however is going to be taking hits from Metagross, that's why counters usually are either defensive enough to stomach all the hits, like Skarmory or Alomolomoa or offensive counters like Victini who use their typing to counter pokemon. Or even pokemon like Toxicroak who use their ability.
I'd be more inclined to use offensive checks to handle pokemon like Mega Metagross. Mega Metagross placement on offensive teams ensure that you don't need a lot of offensive pressure to really hit some holes into the opposing team.
Can we stop using the prediction argument to justify a ban or no ban please? I'm not the only one reading this shaking my head at the quantity of prediction gods we have in our group of OU players. I'm positive about 90% of you trying to justify your argument based on total prediction aren't even pulling off half these stunts you're claiming in an actual practical scenario. There's a difference between using prediction in battle where it actually counts and trying to theorymon prediction of all things in a thread like this and using this as the foundation of your argument. No matter what you're voting for that and a bunch of calcs isn't going to lead to a strong argument. Use arguments such as common cores, actual meta-game trends, whether or not these trends justify a healthy meta or not, just some examples as your arguments instead of aspects that rely on match-up and practicality, not theorymon. It's also assumed that both players are competent so if your logic is something that is being presented from experience at a low ladder level or low level of play there's a very good chance you can't actually speak on the matter.
okay first of all, yes metagross is exactly like greninja in that right. any given team is probably busted by stabs on the switch with one or 2 mons that can switch in (like slowbro, or victini) on stabs nicely. it is pretty obvious what is safest to switch in generally. and even if it isn't, why is it okay to argue that greninja demolishes tier assuming mons like chansey come in on a low kick if it's facing down a lati, but if it's for megagross we have to assume that he doesn't predict? if greninja predicted poorly against lati in that circumstance or predicts wrong vs bisharp it just loses but that's not what we assume while suspecting. what is this mon in the hands of an extremely capable player on a solid team? what is this mon's offensive potential? we're not assuming the worst, obviously.
also slowbro is extremely viable but running 156+ spdef to avoid 2hko from one coverage move on one mon when it's one of the best physical walls in the tier, to me, is exactly the definition of running unviable sets for an overcentralizing threat. slowbro only hits 281 Def if you give it that much SpDef investment, allowing it to get 2hko'd by mons like Banded talonflame or standard excadrill's EQ. not to mention it dies to mons like +2 pinsir now when it used to be able to live one and cripple it or get damage/potential burn. these are just random examples and i'm sure if i went down the list of physical attackers i could find plenty of other examples where trying to miss out on the 2hko from one coverage move on one mon makes slowbro significantly less viable against the tier as a whole than it used to be.
the mons i listed (barring talonflame, an offensive check, and lando if it gets hit by flare blitz on the switch) can come in and eat up zard's hits. slowbro doesn't care about its zard's coverage nor does azu. the mons you just listed? EQ, EQ, Ice Punch, Ice Punch, Ice Punch. and yeah i'll admit bulky garchomp isn't bad, got me there. but i still don't think it peforms the way offensive chomp does.
edit: haha, well since the first part of this is about prediction, my b.
What you just described here isn't checking, it's revenge killing. In order for something to be a good check, you need to be able to switch in at least once, preferably in on one of its STABs, and beat it from here. And if you rely on something that can't actually take a hit from a Pokemon to force it out, you're basically losing something every time the opponent sends it in (and it's almost impossible to stop the opponent finding an opportunity to send Metagross in unless every member of your teams beats MMetagross 1v1... good luck with that). And although Landorus-T is a Metagross check, it isn't a particularly great one because it still takes a lot of damage from Meteor Mash. So if you're using Landorus-T as your sole answer to Metagross, you're probably going to have huge trouble with it, especially if you're also running something like Latios or Clefable which it can easily switch into.
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters
A check doesn't need to switch in at least once in order to be a check. If it can, it might be considered a "hard" check or something, but it's not necessary. Revenge killers are a type of check because, as long as they get in one way or another, they can either force out the opponent or KO them on the spot. On that note, I'd say that Scarf Landorus-T is a pretty darn good Mega Metagross check because not only can it threaten with a KO after Mega Metagross has taken even the slightest bit of chip damage (which is what revenge killers do), but it can even switch in safely once or possibly twice if you're fortunate enough. Now, it's not exactly the best counter since Scarf sets will generally only switch in safely once while physically defensive sets can only switch in safely a couple of times and get screwed over by random Atk boosts, but as far as checks go, you don't get much better than Landorus-T.
AM Edit: Already addressed this with the person you replied to. No need to respond to one liners.
Gibbs Edit: Sorry man, you know I can't resist sometimes.
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I am not really interested in voting for suspect, but I have played some games on my alt and I have played a lot of games in the metagross meta. I dont know 100% sure if mega metagross should be banned or not since a lot of these arguments are pretty terrible, but I will give my opinion.
Let me talk about meta metagross first. Metagross is really solid mon. Earlier this gen i built a few offensive teams, and because of metagross I had to try some cool mons like t wave klef, defensive lando-t, thundy-i, victini, scarf tran, rotom-w, bisharp, scarf chomp, mega scisor, talonflame and pursuit mega metagross. Almost all my offensive teams had 2 or more of these mons. It wasnt that much of a hassle because I use most of these mons on offense anyway. However they arent a 100% win against mega metagross. Gross is still a huge threat and can easily win if I play to carelessly and puts tons of pressure on my team. Allowing it to get in on anything that can't damage it forces me to bring in my check allowing gross to weaken my check and simply switch out. When facing gross I usually make a lot of double switches, so gross cant just come in and kill something. The only good thing that comes out of gross vs offense match up is that gross almost never runs agility, so you dont have to be scared of that. If it does have agility yeah gl.
I have found balance has an a lot easier time checking mega metagross, because they can afford to use some decent counters. However when building balance I mostly have to use the same team building formula of water for gross and a grass mon. They usually work to take on the notorious core of mega meta + keldeo. This core is great against all playstyles and that is why I run the water and grass core. This could be why hippo+starmie+ferrothorn is such a great core. I have also found that these cores are just solid all around. The only problem is that this can be called as centralization, because it forces you to use this core on balance unless you want to lose. However, there are different variantions of the core, and can be used in many different ways. Without mega metagross I feel like different team archetypes can be used more safely and effectively.
Finally, you have how mega metagross matches vs stall. I have found that stall easily has the best match up against this beast. Common stall cores work well as they take on both mega metagross and cm keldeo, unless you allow your keldeo counter to be weaken or cant break through sub. Stall teams utilizing haze tenta(for laddering most likely), mega venu, amoonguss, slowbro, and slowking do great against keldeo, while counter skarm, quag, gliscor, slowbro, slowking, bronzong, jirachi, defog mega zor, and alomomola all do well against gross. I have found stall to be the best against mega metagross and it doesnt have to worry about it too much. They really just have to worry about it partner in crime keldeo.
I feel like mega metagross is not broken in a traditional since, but more in a unhealthy way. It is not as centralizing as like aegi which made mons unviable, but it makes the meta stale in away in which you have to run the same team archetypes to deal with it, not counting stall. Offense just has a hard time handling it in general with the few checks who do an alright job and balance is pretty much the same team archetype every time. Banning metagross doesnt make anything significantlu better since most fairies could get through mega meta with a fire or ground move. However it does make them a bit better because one of their biggest threats are gone. It doesnt make something like fairy spam a thing though. I am not really sure if mega meta should be banned or not. At first I wanted it gone, but I have come to realize it is not as simple as it sounds. I will probably play more on the suspect ladder in sometime ,because people will have probably have found what works and what doesnt, giving me an idea of what the meta without meta will be like. Thats all I got :3
sorry if there is grammar mistakes on my phone rn
Let me talk about meta metagross first. Metagross is really solid mon. Earlier this gen i built a few offensive teams, and because of metagross I had to try some cool mons like t wave klef, defensive lando-t, thundy-i, victini, scarf tran, rotom-w, bisharp, scarf chomp, mega scisor, talonflame and pursuit mega metagross. Almost all my offensive teams had 2 or more of these mons. It wasnt that much of a hassle because I use most of these mons on offense anyway. However they arent a 100% win against mega metagross. Gross is still a huge threat and can easily win if I play to carelessly and puts tons of pressure on my team. Allowing it to get in on anything that can't damage it forces me to bring in my check allowing gross to weaken my check and simply switch out. When facing gross I usually make a lot of double switches, so gross cant just come in and kill something. The only good thing that comes out of gross vs offense match up is that gross almost never runs agility, so you dont have to be scared of that. If it does have agility yeah gl.
I have found balance has an a lot easier time checking mega metagross, because they can afford to use some decent counters. However when building balance I mostly have to use the same team building formula of water for gross and a grass mon. They usually work to take on the notorious core of mega meta + keldeo. This core is great against all playstyles and that is why I run the water and grass core. This could be why hippo+starmie+ferrothorn is such a great core. I have also found that these cores are just solid all around. The only problem is that this can be called as centralization, because it forces you to use this core on balance unless you want to lose. However, there are different variantions of the core, and can be used in many different ways. Without mega metagross I feel like different team archetypes can be used more safely and effectively.
Finally, you have how mega metagross matches vs stall. I have found that stall easily has the best match up against this beast. Common stall cores work well as they take on both mega metagross and cm keldeo, unless you allow your keldeo counter to be weaken or cant break through sub. Stall teams utilizing haze tenta(for laddering most likely), mega venu, amoonguss, slowbro, and slowking do great against keldeo, while counter skarm, quag, gliscor, slowbro, slowking, bronzong, jirachi, defog mega zor, and alomomola all do well against gross. I have found stall to be the best against mega metagross and it doesnt have to worry about it too much. They really just have to worry about it partner in crime keldeo.
I feel like mega metagross is not broken in a traditional since, but more in a unhealthy way. It is not as centralizing as like aegi which made mons unviable, but it makes the meta stale in away in which you have to run the same team archetypes to deal with it, not counting stall. Offense just has a hard time handling it in general with the few checks who do an alright job and balance is pretty much the same team archetype every time. Banning metagross doesnt make anything significantlu better since most fairies could get through mega meta with a fire or ground move. However it does make them a bit better because one of their biggest threats are gone. It doesnt make something like fairy spam a thing though. I am not really sure if mega meta should be banned or not. At first I wanted it gone, but I have come to realize it is not as simple as it sounds. I will probably play more on the suspect ladder in sometime ,because people will have probably have found what works and what doesnt, giving me an idea of what the meta without meta will be like. Thats all I got :3
sorry if there is grammar mistakes on my phone rn
IMO Metagross' movepool is actually kind of mediocre. It doesn't get Recover or anything similar, so it can't capitalize on its bulk. Its STABs are meh; 90 power on Meteor Mash and 80 power on Zen Headbutt. Hammer Arm is on the lower end of ultimate fighting attacks and comes with a nasty speed decrease. To make matters worse, all 3 of those attacks have 90% accuracy, so get ready for some hax. Then he gets some punches, Earthquake, and Grass Knot which are nice. But he can't really go special outside of Grass Knot due to only 105 SpA and Tough Claws not boosting it. So Metagross' moveset isn't really anything to get too excited about, and if it weren't for its stats no one would care about it.
I am severely amused, a lot of people always have perfect prediction.
I am sure if I use for an argument a team with Ferro/Gyara/Magnezone/M-Crobro , somehow someone will say that they are running a set with HP Fire/Thunderpunch/Earthquake/GK, and of course, they will always predict my switches.
Lets be serious for a moment and stop making predictions based arguments on how everyone can run everything on the same set.
For example when you include a check for CharX you can say that Gyara is a good one,because even if the avaibility of Thunderpunch, CharX is almost never using it in practice, you can say the same as using Ferro as a check to M-Gyara, because in practice it rarely(or never) carry a move to beat it, because he is busy using his STABs and Taunt/EQ for Mold Breaker.
People should threat that way Megagross MeteorMash/Zen Headbutt/Hammer Arm and additional coverage move(mainly GK and then Ice Punch) should be the moves used to argument against or in favor of him IMO, if we go the way that it can run Thunderpunch,Earthquake,Gravity(of course the last one is just lol) then we would not reach to anything, because that argument can be used to any Hidden Power user in a lot of situations.
Gyarados,M-Manectric,Raikou,Talonflame,Serperior,CharX,CharY,Lando-T,etc. are mons used in Offense(which is the style that seems to have more problems when dealing with him) that are able to change or prevent him from changing freely, (even sometimes when M-evolved), because they threaten him since they 2OHKO him because they are faster, can take hits and retaliate back,wear him down, and this is not taking into account mons like M-Diancie or Latis who if they are out before him they also are a problem for him.
And Megagross still has problems with Steels, because he is dependant on Hammer Arm to deal with them, and being at -1 can make you lose momentum pretty badly, worse if you predict wrong(I know some have 100% prediction, but this is for humans like me who can make mistakes.), in situations when you don't know if he is going to choose a Ferrothorn or a Lando-T this becomes a problem.
And finally I know it has pretty high stats, but you need to take into account that his primary STABs are an 80 and 90BP moves(120BP and 135BP respectively with STAB.), even with the Tough Claws boost it still is little bit less overall damage than M-Lopunny's HJK, this is funny because a lot of people used to say that M-Lopunny did not do enough damage but somehow Megagross damage now is stupidly incredible and cannot be walled.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Dragon: 148-175 (33.3 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Dragon: 153-181 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So instead of just posting random calcs on unusual moves of Megagross in biased situations, I tought that it would better to compare his overall damage against another mon with similar conditions.
Of course it stills is pretty high damage, but people only see the STATs in a lots of situations,if we put that way M-Latis would also be broken(of course the stat distribution is different, and their abilities don't standout, but this is just an example of how STATs are not the only thing in a mon.)
I am sure if I use for an argument a team with Ferro/Gyara/Magnezone/M-Crobro , somehow someone will say that they are running a set with HP Fire/Thunderpunch/Earthquake/GK, and of course, they will always predict my switches.
Lets be serious for a moment and stop making predictions based arguments on how everyone can run everything on the same set.
For example when you include a check for CharX you can say that Gyara is a good one,because even if the avaibility of Thunderpunch, CharX is almost never using it in practice, you can say the same as using Ferro as a check to M-Gyara, because in practice it rarely(or never) carry a move to beat it, because he is busy using his STABs and Taunt/EQ for Mold Breaker.
People should threat that way Megagross MeteorMash/Zen Headbutt/Hammer Arm and additional coverage move(mainly GK and then Ice Punch) should be the moves used to argument against or in favor of him IMO, if we go the way that it can run Thunderpunch,Earthquake,Gravity(of course the last one is just lol) then we would not reach to anything, because that argument can be used to any Hidden Power user in a lot of situations.
Gyarados,M-Manectric,Raikou,Talonflame,Serperior,CharX,CharY,Lando-T,etc. are mons used in Offense(which is the style that seems to have more problems when dealing with him) that are able to change or prevent him from changing freely, (even sometimes when M-evolved), because they threaten him since they 2OHKO him because they are faster, can take hits and retaliate back,wear him down, and this is not taking into account mons like M-Diancie or Latis who if they are out before him they also are a problem for him.
And Megagross still has problems with Steels, because he is dependant on Hammer Arm to deal with them, and being at -1 can make you lose momentum pretty badly, worse if you predict wrong(I know some have 100% prediction, but this is for humans like me who can make mistakes.), in situations when you don't know if he is going to choose a Ferrothorn or a Lando-T this becomes a problem.
And finally I know it has pretty high stats, but you need to take into account that his primary STABs are an 80 and 90BP moves(120BP and 135BP respectively with STAB.), even with the Tough Claws boost it still is little bit less overall damage than M-Lopunny's HJK, this is funny because a lot of people used to say that M-Lopunny did not do enough damage but somehow Megagross damage now is stupidly incredible and cannot be walled.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Dragon: 148-175 (33.3 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Dragon: 153-181 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So instead of just posting random calcs on unusual moves of Megagross in biased situations, I tought that it would better to compare his overall damage against another mon with similar conditions.
Of course it stills is pretty high damage, but people only see the STATs in a lots of situations,if we put that way M-Latis would also be broken(of course the stat distribution is different, and their abilities don't standout, but this is just an example of how STATs are not the only thing in a mon.)
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Personally it's pretty hard for me to consider a Pokemon a check to another Pokemon if it can't actually switch into it even if it does win 1v1. By that logic you could call LO Terrakion a Mega Gardevoir check when adding a Terrakion does nothing at all to fix a particular team's Gardevoir weakness. Don't really feel like arguing this any more since it'll just completely derail the thread so I'm just going to quote NixHex's post from the Mawilite suspect test thread since he put it better than I could :
Though I guess that's irrelevant in the Landorus vs Metagross scenario given that Landorus-T actually is a Metagross check in every sense of the word since it can switch in. But my point still remains that in order for you to get "no damage" on Landorus-T you need to sack something every single time Metagross gets sent in. It doesn't matter whether you call Landorus-T a check or a counter or a revenge killer, it simply isn't enough to stop Metagross on its own. You can't just look at things in a vacuum and say "A can force B out and I have A so I'm good against B", you have to take into account the rest of your team's composition, and unless you're running HO without Latios, Latias, Altaria, Azumarill, Diancie, Pinsir, Gardevoir, Tornadus-T, Alakazam, or Kyurem-B, if Landorus-T is your best answer to MMetagross then you are probably weak to it.
I'm still somewhat neutral on metagross as I've read quite a few good arguments supporting and opposing its ban, and I'm still trying to establish my own opinion on its effect on the metagame. Lately this has been difficult since metagross isn't allowed in OU, so all of our theorizing and arguments are based on past experiences at this point. However, seeing as Mega Metagross is strictly offensive it's a bit easier to come to some sort of a conclusion, because we don't have to account for all kinds of different sets. As far as I'm aware, only its coverage moves change with the occasional Agility or Hone Claws(?) set.
So since Metagross is an offensive wall-breaker, I assume that its worst enemies are things that can switch into a predicted attack and survive a subsequent coverage move, while threatening Metagross with a strong attack or crippling status move. For purposes of gathering some concrete data, here are the relevant pokemon in OU (S, A and B ranks i guess) that are capable of switching into a STAB and posing a threat against the dual STAB + Hammer Arm + Grass Knot set, which I believe is one of the best sets.
Switch into Meteor Mash and win 1v1:
(life orb),
(def or scarf),
,
(twave),
(with def investment),
(def or scarf),
(def),
(scarf or sand),
,
,
(reflect type),
(def),
,
(def),
,
(def),
,
,
(scarf),
(band)
Switch into Zen Headbutt and win 1v1:
,
(max def),
(life orb),
(def or scarf),
,
(twave),
(with def investment),
(def or scarf),
(def),
(scarf or sand),
,
(reflect type),
(def),
,
(def),
,
(def),
,
,
(scarf),
,
(band),
Whether or not these are enough switch-ins to neutralize Mega Metagross's influence is subjective. Pretty much everything that isn't listed here is either really unreliable (ie def zapdos) or cannot prevent the 2HKO against this particular set. Something else worth noting is that a lot of the pokemon listed above cannot afford to switch in more than once or take any prior damage (ie def heatran and ferrothorn), meaning they are also shaky checks. So this isn't really a list of checks and counters - it's more a list of everything that can possibly stand up to Metagross by switching in. It's not a huge list.
On the other hand I know I've stated that having 9 resistances and great bulk allows Mega Metagross to come in a lot, but I've noticed that Metagross still has a difficult time finding an opportunity to switch in directly. OU is well equipped with moves to keep steel types in check, and Metagross's secondary typing does not mitigate any of Steel's weaknesses. However this doesn't stop Metagross from coming in every time something faints, in which case it's still a revenge killing monster along the same lines as Greninja. Only it's a bit more difficult to handle.
I don't know if Metagross is too powerful or too good or whatever, but I believe its influence on OU is ridiculous and it puts a lot of strain on teambuilding. Its power, speed and coverage allow it to plow through almost any team that doesn't have at least a couple of the switch-ins listed above. It's one of the easiest and most effortless win conditions assuming you don't miss.
So since Metagross is an offensive wall-breaker, I assume that its worst enemies are things that can switch into a predicted attack and survive a subsequent coverage move, while threatening Metagross with a strong attack or crippling status move. For purposes of gathering some concrete data, here are the relevant pokemon in OU (S, A and B ranks i guess) that are capable of switching into a STAB and posing a threat against the dual STAB + Hammer Arm + Grass Knot set, which I believe is one of the best sets.
Switch into Meteor Mash and win 1v1:
Switch into Zen Headbutt and win 1v1:
Whether or not these are enough switch-ins to neutralize Mega Metagross's influence is subjective. Pretty much everything that isn't listed here is either really unreliable (ie def zapdos) or cannot prevent the 2HKO against this particular set. Something else worth noting is that a lot of the pokemon listed above cannot afford to switch in more than once or take any prior damage (ie def heatran and ferrothorn), meaning they are also shaky checks. So this isn't really a list of checks and counters - it's more a list of everything that can possibly stand up to Metagross by switching in. It's not a huge list.
On the other hand I know I've stated that having 9 resistances and great bulk allows Mega Metagross to come in a lot, but I've noticed that Metagross still has a difficult time finding an opportunity to switch in directly. OU is well equipped with moves to keep steel types in check, and Metagross's secondary typing does not mitigate any of Steel's weaknesses. However this doesn't stop Metagross from coming in every time something faints, in which case it's still a revenge killing monster along the same lines as Greninja. Only it's a bit more difficult to handle.
I don't know if Metagross is too powerful or too good or whatever, but I believe its influence on OU is ridiculous and it puts a lot of strain on teambuilding. Its power, speed and coverage allow it to plow through almost any team that doesn't have at least a couple of the switch-ins listed above. It's one of the easiest and most effortless win conditions assuming you don't miss.
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I'm still somewhat neutral on metagross as I've read quite a few good arguments supporting and opposing its ban, and I'm still trying to establish my own opinion on its effect on the metagame. Lately this has been difficult since metagross isn't allowed in OU, so all of our theorizing and arguments are based on past experiences at this point. However, seeing as Mega Metagross is strictly offensive it's a bit easier to come to some sort of a conclusion, because we don't have to account for all kinds of different sets. As far as I'm aware, only its coverage moves change with the occasional Agility or Hone Claws(?) set.
So since Metagross is an offensive wall-breaker, I assume that its worst enemies are things that can switch into a predicted attack and survive a subsequent coverage move, while threatening Metagross with a strong attack or crippling status move. For purposes of gathering some concrete data, here are the relevant pokemon in OU (S, A and B ranks i guess) that are capable of switching into a STAB and posing a threat against the dual STAB + Hammer Arm + Grass Knot set, which I believe is one of the best sets.
Switch into Meteor Mash and win 1v1:
(life orb),(def or scarf),,(twave),(with def investment),(def or scarf),(def),(scarf or sand),,,(def),
(reflect type),(def),,(def),,,,(scarf),(band)
Switch into Zen Headbutt and win 1v1:
,(max def),(life orb),(def or scarf),,(twave),(with def investment),(def or scarf),(def),(scarf or sand),,(def),(reflect type),(def),,(def),,(def),,,(scarf),,(band)
Whether or not these are enough switch-ins to neutralize Mega Metagross's influence is subjective. Pretty much everything that isn't listed here is either really unreliable (ie def zapdos) or cannot prevent the 2HKO against this particular set. Something else worth noting is that a lot of the pokemon listed above cannot afford to switch in more than once or take any prior damage (ie def heatran and ferrothorn), meaning they are also shaky checks. So this isn't really a list of checks and counters - it's more a list of everything that can possibly stand up to Metagross by switching in. It's not a huge list.
On the other hand I know I've stated that having 9 resistances and great bulk allows Mega Metagross to come in a lot, but I've noticed that Metagross still has a difficult time finding an opportunity to switch in directly. OU is well equipped with moves to keep steel types in check, and Metagross's secondary typing does not mitigate any of Steel's weaknesses. However this doesn't stop Metagross from coming in every time something faints, in which case it's still a revenge killing monster along the same lines as Greninja. Only it's a bit more difficult to handle.
I don't know if Metagross is too powerful or too good or whatever, but I believe its influence on OU is ridiculous and it puts a lot of strain on teambuilding. Its power, speed and coverage allow it to plow through almost any team that doesn't have at least a couple of the switch-ins listed above. It's one of the easiest and most effortless win conditions assuming you don't miss.
All of the pokemon you listed cannot switch into hammer arm, ice punch, EQ, or even switch in and win 1v1 as he agilities.. and this those that do, celebi and skarmory, what are those going to do to metagross? phaze it? Perish song? I don't see how they exactly counter gross.. cress can do it's job and t-wave it.. but that's pretty much it as cress is dead weight on most teams anyway.
As far as everything else.. wynaut add choice scarf NU pokemon like typhlosion to the list? That's pretty much the same logic as adding scarf hydreigon, both are unreliable or unviable. Reflect type starmie is pretty.. wtf? even then starfish just loses it's stabs and gets bonked by EQ..
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You're missing the entire point of my post and you most likely didn't bother to read it all. Those lists are there to show what can switch into Metagross without much need for the Metagross user to predict. I even said they're not lists of checks and counters.
Listing pokemon that "stand up against" megagross, with pretty much all of them being screwed, and basing that argument off of, "get gud and predict it's STABs" is not a viable reason to keep metagross in the metagame. I'm not saying your opinion is obsurbed or wrong, but everything you tried to list shouldn't even be there as it's either gimmicky (reflect type starmie? lol) or as you pointed out, shaky at best. Why list and post pokemon nobody uses, and you admittingly pointed out as shaky checks, as anti-ban arguments? It's pointless. I could do the same for every pokemon in ubers completely ignoring their coverage moves as well.
Uh Reflect Type Starmie isn't gimmicky lol. It's been a standard set for awhile now and albeit a shaky check to M-Gross it's still a check. Also everything on Branflakes list are completely viable mons so Idk what in there qualifies as being gimmicky. Most if not all of these are used on a variety of teams on a variety of archetypes. Not exactly sure what point you're trying to get across.
Yeah it seems like you don't have a very good grasp of what lower tiered pokemon became viable in ORAS, like Starmie, Hydreigon, etc. Either that or you're one of those people that think anything below OU is garbage. This isn't a case of Arcanine countering M-Mawile; pretty much every pokemon on that list is entirely viable in OU.
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