np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[trillyntruly]

You don't need to use garbage sets or garbage pokemon to handle Metagross.

that doesn't say much. mega salamance is beyond megagross just as salamance is beyond greninja. both of the lesser threats are still too much for OU.

It only has two STABs???

not sure what you're trying to say here. yes? i was saying that most charizard sets that ran EQ were forgoing one of its STABs (generally fire), therefore if you include its ground coverage in your list of mons it 2hko's, you have to remember that some of the mons it would previously 2hko with, say fire punch/flare blits, are no longer 2hko'd by it.

Slowbro counters Metagross so long as it has some SDef investment (156+ for 0% chance of 3HKO after SR.) You literally CAN put Slowbro on your team and "bam." Or Slowking. Or you can run fully defensive Slowbro and run something that can check sets that don't carry Ice Punch. When I say "stack checks to it" I do not literally mean dedicate half your team to checking it, I mean that if you find that your team is weak to Metagross then you make adjustments, like you would other top threats.

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

better hope you get that burn on your one scald. also i'm failing to see slowbro avoid the 3hko? unless of course you suggest that i must run mega slowbro to avoid the 3hko

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

so now with rocks up you actually do get the 2hko on mega assuming you get more than 2 min rolls in a row. and if it's regular max spdef max hp (garbage) you just barely miss the 2hko with rocks up but that's fine because slack off right? sure mega slowbro could take it with spdef boosts but that's about it. it's not a switch in to Grass Knot sets. nice counter (which is way worse than its physically defensive counterpart. if that's not using suboptimal sets to beat it, i don't know what is).

Things like Rotom-W and Suicune can "switch in" (Rotom is 2HKOed tho) but then what? What do they do back? X-zard can heal damage. Metagross can't. And lol at "if it's not running Fire STAB." I mean if you're listing Ferrothorn as anything that resembles "does not get BTFO by majority of X-zard's", then I think I'm fine listing Jirachi, Victini, Slowking/SDef Slowbro, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, bulky Garchomp, Scizor, Starmie, Gliscor, etc. etc. as checks to Mega Metagross. Because they are.

you're right, the notice i made about it the calculator failing to account for things that help my argument, it also fails to consider whether or not these switch-ins can do anything in return. but couldn't rotom run t-wave to cripple it? or suicune toxic to put it on a timer? less than optimal but sure as hell a lot more viable than spdef slowbro imo. also the argument was about zard-x in XY. at the end of the day megagross can bust up your answers depending on what it puts in the last 2 slots. the only truly necessary moves are MM and ZH. HA is arguable for steels but you could run EQ and a mag to trap steels so i don't think it's truly necessary like dual STAB. zard did not have this luxury. don't get me wrong it had various sets like any other top tier threat. but bulky will-o just isn't as effective as DD, so there goes a slot on DD. you could forego roost, but i wouldn't recommend it. give a mon that powerful with its ability to clean up / sweep reliable recovery and you take it. 2 slots left. depending what you pick you're hardwalled by one of the 2 most popular rock-setters in the game, each of which can fuck your day up if you don't pack the coverage type for it and can set up rocks on you preventing you from switching in nicely later. i suppose you could forego dragon coverage but then imagine how many other things wall it. you could go 3 attacks but that inherently implies that zard needs much more team coverage in order to perform so that it remains healthy throughout the match and can come in without rocks up. or suppose you get rid of DD, then you're not hitting the speed tier necessary to be as threatening as zard was in the first place. this inherently makes zard less effective than megagross because this does not apply to him. he picks his stabs, picks his coverage, comes in and dents. it's more similar to greninja in that it can pick its checks to stop and then the team can patch up the other (obvious switch-ins) that megagross has.

Did you think that X-zard was as busted around a year ago, in the early XY meta?

not really, no. slowbro, talonflame, lando, and azu are all random ou mons i could pick off the top of my head and patch up my weakness to zard. with megagross i have to use bulky chomp or slowking apparently. and a lot of the ones that would come into my head that are actually good like jirachi just get bopped by the right coverage move.

 

[Roxachronic]

but...hu...wha..what?

HOW is that even remotely the same thing?! the single most dominant and threatening zard set was DD. there were a few versions of DD zard-x. Generally speaking, Zard packed roost because it forced switches and could heal up rocks damage. On top of that, Flare Blitz wore it down (it being its most powerful stab move) and so roost helped even if rocks weren't up so that its sweep wasn't stopped early due to Flare Blitz recoil.

Without EQ there were plenty of things that walled it. There was one primary mon that did this, Heatran. Heatran would come in and roar and toxic and set up rocks and do whatever the hell it wanted.

Players that still wanted to have an offensive DD sweeper that had reliable recovery that wasn't hard-stopped by one of the most common rockers in the entire meta would give up fire coverage for EQ....this was extremely common. Tell me, how many Megagross's have you seen without MM? Can you think of even one solid reason to not have MM? Because Zard-X not packing fire coverage was extremely common and I've just explained why it isn't absurd to calc for Zard without fire coverage.

Oh and to answer that other part: I'm the one saying NOT to compare zard-x and Megagross because Zard-X is just not as busted by a mile.


EDIT: View attachment 35806

The problem is that when you imply that it is more easy to threat as a check and Amoongus against a CharX because he will not be using a Fire move, but you cannot use M-Crobro to check Megagross because he will be running Grass Knot(I am not saying that you are doing it, but the previous post, which is why I made that post , was trying to get to a an unfair point.).

All mons can be checked, and this is not different for Megagross, is he powerful? yeah, but people always threat is at if he has no checks, but when someone tries to compare its positive points against something like CharX for example, their argument is always based on how CharX will always not be running something, but Megagross somehow will always do.

''Without EQ there were plenty things that walled it'', the only true example for this is Heatran, since Fire/Dragon is one of the best offensive types to have, in fact Megagross has a much tighter movepool because both of hist STABS are resisted by Steel, and his only way to remedy this is to use a coverage move that puts him at -1 speed.

And unlike CharX who is walled by Heatran by not running EQ, if he lacks Grass Knot, bulky water mons wall it, if he lack Ice punch, Gliscor and Lando-T wall it, if he lacks Agility he is outspeed by Raikous,Starmies,Lando-T,Serpeior,Tornadus-T,Talonflame,etc.

You are talking about how CharX is walled by only ONE mon by not running EQ(well there are a few more than can still check him of course,but you get the point,well at least I hope so.) but Megagross has much more mons capable of walling it by not running an specific coverage move.

 

[WebBowser]

I think Mega Metagross should not be banned.
Reasons being that it is the best counter to fairies which are hard to kill. Even though it can hit hard and fast, Mega Slowbro and Mega Sableye can tank its bullet punches fairly well and Mega Sableye can priority Will-o-wisp Mega Metagross and its almost useless to Mega Sableye. There are few counters to Mega Metagross but its the fact that Fairies are hard to kill and without Mega Metagross to prey on them Mega Altaria and Mega Gardevoir would be destroying the OU metagame.
The second reason being that Mega Metagross would get owned in the Ubers metagame because of the Mega Mewtwo X/Y and Scarfed/Specs Genesect can Burn Techno Drive and crippling it and Mega Metagross can't do a thing to it.
These are my reasons why Mega Metagross should not be banned.

We do not care about how things perform in ubers. For the record though, mmeta is actually C+ in the uber viability rankings, which isn't bad at all. Also, nobody in their right mind would run burn drive genesect.

I was also wondering how the characteristics of an Uber relate to these suspects. It was pretty much agreed that Gross doesn't fit them, but I believe WebBowser showed that it fits 1 out of 4 of the characteristics. If it fits one is it Uber material? Is it up to the voter's discretion? I'd like some clarification on this point.

The "characteristic" I cited is not exactly "official", but was simply one of the suggested methods in the portrait of an uber thread(great read btw, I highly recommend you check it out) for determining how strong something is. It did not make it into the OP because the folks there decided that brokenness was adequately covered in the three characteristics in the OP. The reason why I quoted it is because I felt that it pertained to mmeta's case very well, possibly much more then anything that the people on the thread knew about in gen 4(when this discussion took place). It's clear that mmeta does not fit the offensive or defensive characteristic, and while you could argue that it fits the support characteristic, I found it much simpler to take the approach that it's damage dealt vs. damage taken ratio is far too high (I find the support characteristic to be overly broad). That being said, the OU council does not use these characteristics as strict banning guidelines anymore(though they occasionally reference them to help explain some of their decisions). To actually answer your question though, technically voters can vote based on whatever arbitrary reasons they darn well please. The characteristics of an uber topic is simply a helpful tool to help frame discussion more then anything else. That being said, the general consensus is that if something is broken under any characteristic, it is broken due to how the characteristics are defined (for example, good luck finding any mon that fits both the offensive and defensive characteristic. I can think of two mons at most, neither of them will ever see OU).

*edit*

P.S. To tag someone, simply type an @ next to their name, like this: "@webbowser"

WebBowser

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

better hope you get that burn on your one scald. also i'm failing to see slowbro avoid the 3hko? unless of course you suggest that i must run mega slowbro to avoid the 3hko

I meant avoid the 2HKO, and it doesn't need 252/252+ to do this. You can either run Rocky Helm and spam slack off, or you have something that can switch in to a resisted grass attack (where or where can someone find that) and scare it off, and with Regenerator it's not like this is a big issue. Also, Slowbro isn't necessarily going to be switching in to a grass knot, Metagross is not like Greninja where it only had a handful of really specific checks that were easy to predict.

not really, no. slowbro, talonflame, lando, and azu are all random ou mons i could pick off the top of my head and patch up my weakness to zard. with megagross i have to use bulky chomp or slowking apparently. and a lot of the ones that would come into my head that are actually good like jirachi just get bopped by the right coverage move.

Or Jirachi or Victini or Lando (Lando takes more damage from X-zard) or Gliscor, etc. etc. etc. And bulky Garchomp is legit good lol. No one is asking you to run stuff on the level of Scarf Noivern or even Porygon2, plenty of viable pokemon can handle Metagross to an appreciable extent.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Oh, and MuhFrigginMoose? I wouldn't blow a condescending kiss to Megagross just yet; I think you may come to find it isn't going anywhere.

What you talkin' 'bout? When did I imply it was definitely going? Ya know, aside from never. . ?

Anyways, I want to express one thing, before I just absolutely leave this thread due to the fact that 90% of this is more garbage that usual. Using this never ending spiral bullshit, is not helping. If fairies (some of you are implying ALL fairies) become OP, which they won't due to the fact that we had no problem with them in XY, we'll get to them. I just want to remind everyone that people were saying the same thing about Clefable during the Greninja ban, and all it ended up being was overhyped garbage. MegaGross is not the only way of dealing with Fairies, it's simply the easiest. So, sitting here and holding your argument and reasoning on "Fairies being OP" or "Mega Diancie will be OP now" are absolutely absurd. There is nothing implying either of those will happen outside of its best check being removed. Besides, if mDiancie proves to be as OP as everyone says it is, we'll be having a suspect thread much like this one for her, where all of you guys pleading for MegaGross to stay to beat out this apparent game changer will be trying to say she isn't OP. Ooh, look, another empty allegation.

What I'm trying to say is, applying the "Broken beats Broken" or Slippery Slopes to your reasoning, is just. . . so amazingly fucked up. You have the right to your opinion on the matter, but when that is what is supporting your opinion, I have to question your desires for the metagame. If you wanted a healthy metagame, you would see why this thing needs to go, and voting no ban because you think it will stop some never ending suspect crisis is just plain stupid. SURPRISE, not banning MegaGross will not stop future suspects.

 

[HaxMiner]

I say Ban Mega Metagross. This thing is just disgustingly good. Four Moveslot Syndrome isn't really a viable argument to make, because just like with Greninja, you need to be taking damage to scout what moves it's running. Want to scout for Hammer Arm? Send in your Slowbro and get bopped by a Grass Knot. Want to check for Ice Punch? Send in your Ferrothorn and get slammed by a Hammer Arm. The list goes on and on. Plus, team support helps further the coverage MegaGross has. Magnezone imo makes a great tango partner for MegaGross lacking Thunder Punch and Hammer Arm, because it can zap Skarmorys and HP Fire away Ferrothorns. Plus, Tough Claws boosting both of its STABs and most of its coverage moves, having access to priority, insane bulk, great strength and speed, this thing is just begging for a ban. Before ORAS, I predicted this thing would get suspected, and have a good chance of getting banned to Ubers along with Mega Mence. Now it's coming into reality. So Again, I say Ban Mega Metagross.

 

[preserve]

If you wanted a healthy metagame, you would see why this thing needs to go, and voting no ban because you think it will stop some never ending suspect crisis is just plain stupid. SURPRISE, not banning MegaGross will not stop future suspects.

Healthy metagame is different for each person. Some people may prefer a more "safe" meta where it's easier to counter other pokemon, where other people prefer a more "risker" meta where it's not as easy to counter other pokemon and one preferred meta should not reign supreme over the other.

I say Ban Mega Metagross. This thing is just disgustingly good. Four Moveslot Syndrome isn't really a viable argument to make, because just like with Greninja, you need to be taking damage to scout what moves it's running. Want to scout for Hammer Arm? Send in your Slowbro and get bopped by a Grass Knot. Want to check for Ice Punch? Send in your Ferrothorn and get slammed by a Hammer Arm. The list goes on and on. Plus, team support helps further the coverage MegaGross has. Magnezone imo makes a great tango partner for MegaGross lacking Thunder Punch and Hammer Arm, because it can zap Skarmorys and HP Fire away Ferrothorns. Plus, Tough Claws boosting both of its STABs and most of its coverage moves, having access to priority, insane bulk, great strength and speed, this thing is just begging for a ban. Before ORAS, I predicted this thing would get suspected, and have a good chance of getting banned to Ubers along with Mega Mence. Now it's coming into reality. So Again, I say Ban Mega Metagross.

If you need support from other teamates, then shouldn't that be one reason not to ban it?
I always thought that pokemon that got banned required it to have very little support. Speaking about support Meta Meta gross and magnzone need a lot of support if you want to pair them up together as they both share to common weaknesses (fire and ground)

Also on meta-metagross, I'm still surprised that people are still using hammer arm over something like earthquake. Sure it gets the tough claws boost, but it lower its speed which is one of the main things that made meta-metagross better. The only reason to really use hammer arm is to deal with specific pokemon like ferrothorn and perhaps maybe skarmory where EQ would be hitting everything hammer arm would. I think that people resorting to using hammer harm to deal certain pokemon is an argument against its ban

Even though skarmory being one of metagross's checks/counters can't really do anything thing back, can still run rocky helmet to widdle metagross down, making it easier to revenge kill. Rocky helmet may not be the one sole item skarmory should use, but its still a viable one. And personally speaking I usually ran rocky helmlet on my skarmory so it was easier for me to deal with metagross.

Also, upon reflecting on which pokemon can take on one metagross on a more defensive standpoint, I found that mandibuzz is decent check to this thing.

looking at calcs

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 163-193 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Stealth rocks does have a chance to 2HKO but a pure defensive one will only have a 3.1 chance too

While a mandibuzz's foul play does

Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO.

Other checks/counter could be bronzong or cresselia, but people can say that these are obscure checks.

 

[Froggyboy]

Healthy metagame is different for each person. Some people may prefer a more "safe" meta where it's easier to counter other pokemon, where other people prefer a more "risker" meta where it's not as easy to counter other pokemon and one preferred meta should not reign supreme over the other.

Also on meta-metagross, I'm still surprised that people are still using hammer arm over something like earthquake. Sure it gets the tough claws boost, but it lower its speed which is one of the main things that made meta-metagross better. The only reason to really use hammer arm is to deal with specific pokemon like ferrothorn and perhaps maybe skarmory where EQ would be hitting everything hammer arm would. I think that people resorting to using hammer harm to deal certain pokemon is an argument against its ban

Even though skarmory being one of metagross's checks/counters can't really do anything thing back, can still run rocky helmet to widdle metagross down, making it easier to revenge kill. Rocky helmet may not be the one sole item skarmory should use, but its still a viable one. And personally speaking I usually ran rocky helmlet on my skarmory so it was easier for me to deal with metagross.

Also, upon reflecting on which pokemon can take on one metagross on a more defensive standpoint, I found that mandibuzz is decent check to this thing.

looking at calcs

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 163-193 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Stealth rocks does have a chance to 2HKO but a pure defensive one will only have a 3.1 chance too

While a mandibuzz's foul play does

Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO.

Other checks/counter could be bronzong or cresselia, but people can say that these are obscure checks.

So you are saying that OU with Mega Metagross is an easier meta to counter things than a meta without it? Lol what?

Hammer Arm gives you a guaranteed chance to OHKO Bisharp, makes you slower so you can outslow Skarmory as it Roosts and hit it for super effective damage, is a generally more powerful move thanks to Tough Claws. Sure it lowers your speed, but it's not like switching out doesn't exist.

Rocky Helmet is generally an unviable option, only rising in popularity when a hard hitting psychical Pokemon comes into the meta, and once that Pokemon goes, Rocky Helmet usage goes down and down. Plus Magnezone is a common partner of Metagross', so unless you predict correctly every turn, you are either going to get trapped or killed by Metagross.

Mandibuzz is a decent check, but most Metagross run Naive, so Bisharp's Sucker Punch doesn't have a chance to OHKO it. So that calc would look more like this,
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 236-282 (78.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You still lose on the switch.

Bronzong is actually a decent check to Metagross, it has been rising in popularity thanks to it being able to check most of the new megas to decent success. And Cresselia can't do a thing back, I guess it can try to PP stall Metagross out of Meteor Mashes, but eventually, Gross is either gonna get a crit or an attack raise, and then Cress is screwed.

 

[HaxMiner]

Healthy metagame is different for each person. Some people may prefer a more "safe" meta where it's easier to counter other pokemon, where other people prefer a more "risker" meta where it's not as easy to counter other pokemon and one preferred meta should not reign supreme over the other.



If you need support from other teamates, then shouldn't that be one reason not to ban it?
I always thought that pokemon that got banned required it to have very little support. Speaking about support Meta Meta gross and magnzone need a lot of support if you want to pair them up together as they both share to common weaknesses (fire and ground)

Also on meta-metagross, I'm still surprised that people are still using hammer arm over something like earthquake. Sure it gets the tough claws boost, but it lower its speed which is one of the main things that made meta-metagross better. The only reason to really use hammer arm is to deal with specific pokemon like ferrothorn and perhaps maybe skarmory where EQ would be hitting everything hammer arm would. I think that people resorting to using hammer harm to deal certain pokemon is an argument against its ban

Even though skarmory being one of metagross's checks/counters can't really do anything thing back, can still run rocky helmet to widdle metagross down, making it easier to revenge kill. Rocky helmet may not be the one sole item skarmory should use, but its still a viable one. And personally speaking I usually ran rocky helmlet on my skarmory so it was easier for me to deal with metagross.

Also, upon reflecting on which pokemon can take on one metagross on a more defensive standpoint, I found that mandibuzz is decent check to this thing.

looking at calcs

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 163-193 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Stealth rocks does have a chance to 2HKO but a pure defensive one will only have a 3.1 chance too

While a mandibuzz's foul play does

Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO.

Other checks/counter could be bronzong or cresselia, but people can say that these are obscure checks.

Team Support isn't really an argument for against ban. Team Support is just another defining factor of the meta, and I'm saying in that hypothetical situation, where Metagross is LACKING either T-Punch or Hammer Arm, Magnezone cleans up both of them nicely. You know what Magnezone also zaps off of its high horse? Mandibuzz.
Common Weaknesses are covered by other team synergies. You do know how basic team-building works right? I'm not just going to have Pokemon weak to Fire/Ground on my team so an Excadrill or a Mega Zard could run through it. Plus, Mega Metagross needs very MINIMAL to no team support to function well at all. Magnezone is simply a partner that increases its already potent abilities. For the same reason people ran Magnezone to help out SubDD Mega Mence take on Skarmory before it was banned to Ubers, the same applies here.

Bronzong and Cresselia are VERY obscure checks, and you never really see either of them in OU unless you come across a trick room team with them as TR setters. And WHAT can Cress/Bronzong do back? Absolutely nothing.

Mega Metagross is a very potent threat, needs very little to if no team support at all to function well, and has no counters that can come in on it consistently and do stuff back to it. Sure Mandibuzz can come in, but with Rocks, it's NOT going to like taking a Meteor Mash to the face, and possibly taking a +1 Meteor Mash the next turn as well.

 

[preserve]

So you are saying that OU with Mega Metagross is an easier meta to counter things than a meta without it? Lol what?

No, I'm just saying that certain people prefer a more risker meta than a safer one. Meta-Metagross may make it harder to counter other pokes but to some people that may be more healthy.

Bronzong and Cresselia are VERY obscure checks, and you never really see either of them in OU unless you come across a trick room team with them as TR setters. And WHAT can Cress/Bronzong do back? Absolutely nothing.

Sure Mandibuzz can come in, but with Rocks, it's NOT going to like taking a Meteor Mash to the face, and possibly taking a +1 Meteor Mash the next turn as well.

Bronzong can carry EQ? But in anycase that's why they are called checks.. which goes back to what I said about risky vs safer players and how people want the meta to be. Do we want a POSSIBLY boring meta where we just send in counters after counters or POSSIBLY interesting? meta where players need to make a difficult, but judgemental choice and make plays and get rewarded/punished for those choices?

 

[Aberforth]

I say Ban Mega Metagross. This thing is just disgustingly good. Four Moveslot Syndrome isn't really a viable argument to make, because just like with Greninja, you need to be taking damage to scout what moves it's running. Want to scout for Hammer Arm? Send in your Slowbro and get bopped by a Grass Knot. Want to check for Ice Punch? Send in your Ferrothorn and get slammed by a Hammer Arm. The list goes on and on. Plus, team support helps further the coverage MegaGross has. Magnezone imo makes a great tango partner for MegaGross lacking Thunder Punch and Hammer Arm, because it can zap Skarmorys and HP Fire away Ferrothorns. Plus, Tough Claws boosting both of its STABs and most of its coverage moves, having access to priority, insane bulk, great strength and speed, this thing is just begging for a ban. Before ORAS, I predicted this thing would get suspected, and have a good chance of getting banned to Ubers along with Mega Mence. Now it's coming into reality. So Again, I say Ban Mega Metagross.

I do love how your opponent becomes psychic in these scenarios. And team support, yeah magnezone is a good teammate for metagross. It's also a good team mate for diancie, gardevoir, altaria and a lot of other mons that dont like steel types.

And it is in no way like greninja. Greninja had a superb movepool, and stab on everything, and needed precisely 0 moves on every set. It could pick and choose what moves to run, and you'd not have a clue what moves it ran at team preview other than guessing based on the rest of the opponents team. Metagross has to run mash + zen headbut, which aren't particularly good moves for a sweeper/wallbreaker's main stab attacks. It also basically has to run one of earthquake or hammer arm (because magnezone isn't doing much at all to heatran in particular), and that leaves one moveslot to play around with, which is almost always going to be grass knot because slowbro is very difficult to take down. You can run a dedicated lure for slowbro, but that is something that makes me more unwilling to ban metagross, because it is something that requires skill to use effectively.

Also, metagross has more (and better) checks than Cresselia and Bronzong. Scizor, Slowbro, lando-t, mew, Ferrothorn (without hammer arm), ext. A lot of OU mons win 1v1 vs metagross, and if there are no rocks up, even more win vs it. It is very easy to wear down, and revenge kill with landorus-t, bisharp, Zards, Heatran (rocks off only, if not scarfed), victini, excadrill (in sand), garchomp, gengar (warning, speed tie), gliscor, scarf keldeo, manetric, Lopunny, diggersby, or volcarona (again, rocks stops this). And those are only the ones that are in OU or BL. Scizor sets up on it as well, so it could be included.

These mons are almost all staples of the OU metagame, and Gross loses to all of them.

 

[unit976]

I love how everyone says "oh you can't take 4MSS as a factor for no ban" which is kind of silly in its own right, but I don't think you're opponent is always going to call the switch correctly 150% of the time. Someone pointed out earlier that cores are the best way to go for combating pokes who have very little switch-ins which is very true imo, I always find myself pivoting around to get around a Pokemon. Which then again isn't always the case, but just something to consider when you're pro ban, and are tossing around calcs assuming X metagross user is going to make the perfect predictions and 2HKO everything on your team.

 

[QueenOfHax]

Mega Metagross' moveset is very easy to discern by just looking at team preview. For example if your opponent has no grass or electric types but has Metagross, you can be damn sure it's running Grass Knot for Slowbro.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I agree on the three mega syndrome. If you ban M-Gross, M-Diancie will destroy M-Sableye, and likewise for each mega. But, for countering M-Gross, Skarmory can't do a thing back to M-Gross. All it can possibly do is whirlwind it out, which is just delaying the inevitable sweep that is going to occur if you don't have one of the more dedicated checks, like slowbro, who threatens M-Gross with Scald and it's burn.

I do think Mega Gross should stay. It has it's fair share of checks and counters, and I agree with others on this subject. It's just not broken.

Don't Ban.

If Skarmory has Rocky helmet Skarmory wins at roughly 50%, I've lost to a skarmory like that before. If Skarmory has counter, which I said in my post that you obviously didn't read, mega meta also loses. Counter and Rocky helmet skarmory is not unviable.

 

[Froggyboy]

If Skarmory has Rocky helmet Skarmory wins at roughly 50%, I've lost to a skarmory like that before. If Skarmory has counter, which I said in my post that you obviously didn't read, mega meta also loses. Counter and Rocky helmet skarmory is not unviable.

Could you give reasons why Rocky Helmet+Counter Skarmory is viable? Outside of checking Metagross of course.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Could you give reasons why Rocky Helmet+Counter Skarmory is viable? Outside of checking Metagross of course.

Counter and rocky helmet has always been viable. I don't really see why I should give a reason. Rocky helmet provides extra damage, while counter leaves you with a way to beat physical attacks who are the last man standing. Rocky helmet is especially useful for Megas that can't set up, like Sharpedo helping secure the OHKO's.

 

[Froggyboy]

Counter and rocky helmet has always been viable. I don't really see why I should give a reason. Rocky helmet provides extra damage, while counter leaves you with a way to beat physical attacks who are the last man standing. Rocky helmet is especially useful for Megas that can't set up, like Sharpedo helping secure the OHKO's.

Not really. Counter has only risen because of Mega Metagross, and without it, I would expect it to decrease in usage heavily. Rocky Helmet albeit is more viable, but still a weaker option to Leftovers and Shed Shell. Counter can really screw over Skarmory a lot of the time, a viable set for Metagross is Sub+3 Attacks. With this, you can damage Skarmory with Hammer Arm, then go for Sub as they go for Counter, now they are beat. Plus Metagross also carries coverage moves to hit Skarmory, which is useful outside of hitting it, like Thunder Punch and Hidden Power Fire.

 

[Josh Morales]

Not really. Counter has only risen because of Mega Metagross, and without it, I would expect it to decrease in usage heavily. Rocky Helmet albeit is more viable, but still a weaker option to Leftovers and Shed Shell. Counter can really screw over Skarmory a lot of the time, a viable set for Metagross is Sub+3 Attacks. With this, you can damage Skarmory with Hammer Arm, then go for Sub as they go for Counter, now they are beat. Plus Metagross also carries coverage moves to hit Skarmory, which is useful outside of hitting it, like Thunder Punch and Hidden Power Fire.

I support banning Mega Metagross but I'm pretty sure Counter rose in usage on Skarmory in XY OU after Aegislash was banned because Aegislash was no longer there to check Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross, which are powerful enough to 2HKO Skarmory with HJK or Close Combat, because quite simply with Counter you won't take the hit and proceed to kill yourself with Brave Bird recoil. I might be wrong on the reasoning, but I do know the usage of Counter on Skarmory has nothing to do with anything that was introduced in ORAS OU.

Mega Metagross' moveset is very easy to discern by just looking at team preview. For example if your opponent has no grass or electric types but has Metagross, you can be damn sure it's running Grass Knot for Slowbro.

This doesn't change the fact that Mega Metagross picks and chooses its counters. The exceedingly minimal amount of counters that Mega Metagross has obviously is not my only reason for supporting a ban because the lack of counters does not equate a ban, but it is a contributing factor.

I honestly see the case of Mega Metagross to be too similar to Greninja that I can't see any reason not to ban it. Both Pokemon picked and chose their counters and both have good speed. The difference is that you can actually reliably revenge kill Greninja because of its lack of bulk, but revenge killing Mega Metagross is one hell of a rare thing to come by considering its Stealth Rock resistance, potential priority, potential Rock Polish, and godly bulk where the minimum power required to OHKO it is a Super Effective Choice Banded STAB Talonflame Flare Blitz. At least Mega Metagross' speed tier is very cluttered, but yet again I have to bring up the potential priority Rock Polish.

Not to mention to people all scared of Fairies after Mega Metagross isn't in the metagame is fucking ridiculous.

 

[Luckstard.]

Not really. Counter has only risen because of Mega Metagross, and without it, I would expect it to decrease in usage heavily. Rocky Helmet albeit is more viable, but still a weaker option to Leftovers and Shed Shell. Counter can really screw over Skarmory a lot of the time, a viable set for Metagross is Sub+3 Attacks. With this, you can damage Skarmory with Hammer Arm, then go for Sub as they go for Counter, now they are beat. Plus Metagross also carries coverage moves to hit Skarmory, which is useful outside of hitting it, like Thunder Punch and Hidden Power Fire.

It's completely false.

Counter on Skarmory also helps you to deal with Bisharp and Scizor, I don't think it would decrease a lot in usage.

Nobody uses Substitute on Metagross because you lose coverage, and you are not even sure to pass Skarmory (since he also can WW you and then you lost 25% of your life).

 

[Machi]

I don't want to derail the thread too much or anything, but Heatran practically loses to every Fairy bar Clefable and Klefki just because of the coverage moves they commonly run (focus blast, earth power and earthquake). MMeta is easily the best Fairy counter in the meta, since it can take their coverage moves fairly easy and hit back with Bullet Punch or Meteor Mash, which KO's them all apart from Azumarill

Bear in mind that Naive also tends to be run fairly often on MGross so he actually takes a bigger hit from the special hitting fairy types, and well Specs Hyper Voice just brute forces him and Earth Power deals upto 70% or so... I wouldn't say he takes the hits comfortably. Course he has bullet punch to ease his matches with them but same can be said with Scizor, who is a better switch in so much that he has recovery. That said there are other options like Jirachi/Empoleon that is a better match against the fairies. However, if you rely on Heatran/Ferrothorn/MGross as your answer to fairies I'd say those are poor choices as they are easily whittled down and hit very hard by coverage.

There is also the ever growing popularity of bulky Excadrill if you plan to catch them off guard, which has been used to good success.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

The only playstyles who have shaky answers to Mega Metagross is HO, and I don't think that's a reason enough to ban it. Same thing with Stall having to struggle with stallbreaker.

 

[timespell]

hmm, this suspect is similar to greninja in terms of stats,movepool,ability and viability in ou. this thing's movepool is pretty unpredictable and you will need to run mainly scarfers to outspeed this thing. however, this thing still gets walled by wall types like slowbro and manaphy, so it isnt completely unstoppable in ou. in saying that, it would still rek in the ou offensive metagame and certainly put some dents in stall teams.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Wait how does it get walled by Slowbro and Manaphy? Slowbro is 2hkoed by GK unless running spdef, and Manaphy is 2hkoed by zenheadbutt and can't do much back except for hoping for scald burns.

 

[Wumgum]

and Manaphy is 2hkoed by zenheadbutt

Hide

It's still just a check(but a good one to be honest).

 

[timespell]

when running spdef slowbro its a 3HKO and spdef slowbro is as uncommon as GK megagross and bulky manaphy can take 3 zen headbutts and set up rain or tail glow