Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[zbr]

Let me try and defog away all the hazards surrounding Empoleon and it's rank.

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 237-279 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is an extremely suboptimal set of Talonflame to use in the current meta. Not that I am saying it's unviable, but using this as a gauge to whether Emp is worth using or not is not the best idea.
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 157-186 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 254-302 (77.6 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Clearing Hazards and having a resistance to only stealth rocks, mind you, isnt amazing. Even with 10 resists, like 6 matter and it fares really bad against Offense. Everything in S rank can kill it with ease. Many things in the A ranks kill it with ease.

So it must be able to tank everything in A/S rank to be considered a B- mon? That sounds like an awful lot of work. The aim of Empoleon is to come in and sponge hits from Fairy types such as Sylv, Clef, Non EQ MAlt, Mdiancie and use them as potential hazard controlling fodder. The resists, honestly, is just a side benefit of the mon. They main thing it has going is access to defog + SR as well as being able to sponge hits from common mons. It isn't the best definitely, but it has it's worth.

If you need a good Defogger with a lot of resists, use the guy. But he isnt much more useful afterwards. He fits on specific teams.

He does his role well as a spdef support. How is he not much useful afterwards? Scald is such a broken utility move that gives it a lot of free chip damage. Considering that the mons he force in are usually physically oriented, leaning towards Fighting types, having a chance to cripple opposing users is very much notable in itself. Sure he fits on specific teams, but the set that brought Empoleon to where it's at now is pretty useful even in the current meta with the Fairy typing being such a dominant force in the current metagame, I see more than enough reasons to put Empoleon at B-.

Why do you guys want this dude in B-? You're bringing a slow, semi bulky pokemon that is basically useless except for clearing hazards (Which Latios does fine, so does Starmie and Excadrill, too, and so does fucking flygon)

You are comparing 4 complete different mons with different strengths and the only thing they have in common is their hazard controlling potential. Being able to resist fairy typing by virtue of it's typing is a very huge boon for Empoleon (I think I've repeated this at least 3 times) and I think this is a great enough reason for it to remain in B-.

Basically I should use a pokemon with no Recovery to tank hits and throw scalds and other offense moves and Defog back at other pokemon? Seems decent, except the fact that Empoleon has the same offensive threat as Smeargle with Tackle. I'm not gonna use a Steel that is slow and does nothing but tank shit then a Jirachi who supports my entire team with spreading status and actually having offensive pressure.

Please use some sense in your comparison. Can Jirachi control hazards? They are of completely different niches and you shouldn't be drawing them for comparison.

Azumarill, Scizor, and everything else on switchin loves to Knock Off Empoleons only way of survival.

Lets look at it this way, all of them that switch in have to risk a burn. That is fair enough game.

Seriously, its a bulky wall that can run support, but as some people say, you cant have the best of both worlds. You run an Offensive set to pick off others, or you run Defog and Scald to give decent support to your team, even though you have the offensive presence of Alomomola if you do so.

I would honestly think this guy is C+ material, because it has way too many flaws and the metagame is really shitting on it right now. B- is kinda pushing a pokemon we only used for Greninja.

No one runs Offensive Emp anymore but it is still worth trying it. You really need to stop comparing it to mons that don't have similar niches as it. Furthermore, how is it bad in the current metagame now? If anything, it is still worth playing it now because of how many things in the meta it is capable of checking. It's definitely not the best, but when you look at B-, this mon is still capable of providing sufficient support as to how Alomomola would provide powerful heal supports in the current metagame. I think that Empoleon still holds it's weight (not much but still sufficient enough) in the current metagame to the point where it deserves to retain in the B- ranking.

Edit: Tagging Reverb because he is an ardent user of Empoleon
Edit 2: does edit tagging work?
Edit 3: can someone tag Reverb on the off chance he doesn't see this tag? D:

 

[Sochlo]

Just nitpicking but no defense investments on Empoleon seems really bad in the current meta.

Its best utility set would probably look something like this.

Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 52 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Roar / Grass Knot
- Defog

EVs let you live Landoge's EQ and anything weaker while still checking every Fairy-type in the tier (also checks Azu and DD Alt better). If you opt for Grass Knot it also counters Slowbro and helps deal with Mega Gyara.

Empoleon's typing and moveset gives it tons of utility, I don't think B- is asking too much lol.

 

[BlueLobster]

ZANBAKUResh edit tagging doesn't work IIRC. Reverb.

 

[Notorious544d]

About Magnezone...

During the M-Metagross metagame, I fully support a drop to B+. The scarf set was popular in XY as a good bird check but with Talonflame's now running jolly and M-Pinsir's usage at UU levels, the scarf set has become redundant. Also, with M-Lopunny being a popular mega as well as Sand Rush Excadrill increasing in usage, a drop was long overdue.

However, on the suspect ladder Magnezone is everywhere. Many M-Altaria and M-Diancie teams have Magnezone as a partner to trap Ferrothorn, Scizor and Skarmory. Heatran isn't even an issue since DD M-Altaria and standard M-Diancie run Earthquake and Earth Power respectively. FairyMag is the new DragMag and in this metagame, Magnezone doesn't deserve a drop - if anything it may even rise but time will tell.

So basically, I think Magnezone should remain A- for now. If M-Metagross stays, then it should drop but if it gets banned then it will go back to A- at least anyway which makes the proposed drop redundant.

Also, Gliscor needs to drop to A rank IMO. Gliscor was excellent in the very early post-Greninja metagame when M-Sableye and Clefable became very popular. Now though, M-Sableye is surprisingly less common (especially on the suspect ladder) and Keldeo spam really hurts it. I felt that Gliscor's promotion from B+ straight up to A+ was far too ambitious at the time but now I think it's time for it to go back to A rank.

 

[AM]

The rankings are to reflect the current metagame, not the suspect one. You cant say "this will stay at this rank if so and so leaves," because we're not at the point so dont just make assumptions like this and base your ranking on this. I disagree with gliscor dropping tbh but not going to write out a long post on my phone and if necessary I'll do so later.

 

[TURBODERP]

I'd say Gliscor warrants staying in A+ rank at least as Lando-I is pushing for S rank contention. SpDef Gliscor beats most versions of Lando-I (assuming they aren't running HP Ice, which on the RP sets they don't) and is pretty solid overall (you can even run SD on it to beat CM Mega Sableye).

 

[Albacore]

I'd say Gliscor warrants staying in A+ rank at least as Lando-I is pushing for S rank contention. SpDef Gliscor beats most versions of Lando-I (assuming they aren't running HP Ice, which on the RP sets they don't) and is pretty solid overall (you can even run SD on it to beat CM Mega Sableye).

This is actually not true. HP Ice is pretty much standard on RP Landorus atm specifically because it enables it to tear apart balanced teams that rely on Gliscor to check it (which many if not most balanced teams do) as well as OHKO opposing Landorus and Landorus-T, and being able to set up on these (particularly the latter) is one of the big selling point of RP Landorus.

Not saying that Gliscor should drop though, it's very splashable, handles a lot of annoying things and pretty much holds balance together atm. But it's not a reliable Landorus counter anymore, and if anything the reason it is considered a candidate for S rank is because of how customisable the RP set is. The only required moves on it are Rock Polish and Earth Power. From here, any combination of Psychic, Sludge Wave, HP Ice, Knock Off, Focus Blast or even Superpower can work depending on the team. And since Gliscor is so common, annoying to get rid of, and is people first switchin to Landorus in most cases, it's easy to see why many of them run HP Ice.

 

[FaZeBoo]

I think this magnezone conversation has gone a little far, almost everything to talk about has been said, so I think that we should come to another topic. The one I am seeing is Entei. In my opinion, it is the second best physical fire type behind Charizard X, which takes a mega slot. Infernape is good, but Entei gets a great moveset with E-Speed, Sacred Fire, Iron Head, Stone Edge, Bulldoze (In OU for heatran). This really great coverage, and paired with Speed and Power plus respectable bulk, and different sets, like assault vest and band, Entei is the most respectable physical fire type in ou that doesnt take up that helpful mega slot. My Vote is Entei from C to B-

 

[AlphaGiratina]

I'd like to support M-Lopunny going to S. This thing has almost no switchins bar heavily invested Alomomola, which still fears a 2HKO with SR up. Gliscor gets KO punched by ice punch, Mega Sableye gets faked out + HJK'd, Clefable doesn't enjoy returns (or toxic if it's unaware), even Mega Altaria gets beaten by Return/Ice Punch and outsped if it doesn't run speed investment at +1. Mega Lopunny has the potential to get kills every time it switches in, and unless you're running some sort of extremely spongey stall there's nothing you can do about that.

In addition to this, Mega Lopunny isn't just some frail sweeper. It has pretty decent bulk, and a variety of options to work with. I've seen sub + work up + drain punch + filler before, and it works. Mega Lopunny has a variety of options to work with and can adapt to defeat whatever it needs to. Not broken, but certainly one of the best mons in the tier. Mega Lopunny for S

 

[AM]

We're not discussing rankings based on the notion M-Metagross is leaving at this point in time. When that verdict is out and in the case it leaves there will be a general timeframe to let the meta settle a bit before just throwing every single Fairy Type in S rank arbitrarily. Do not based your ranking proposal on a M-Metagross leaving as the focus is the meta with M-Metagross in it. Also don't stay things like "it's not broken, but it's S rank nonetheless" cause we're not talking about whether something is subjectively broken or not, that's not the point for something going to S. Rankings that don't adhere to these basic points are subjected to being deleted so use some common sense.

 

[Celticpride]

I'd like to support M-Lopunny going to S. This thing has almost no switchins bar heavily invested Alomomola, which still fears a 2HKO with SR up.

Calcs

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 138-163 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 183-216 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 44+ Def Mega Scizor: 144-171 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 153-181 (36.4 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 75.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lopunny may be hard to handle for offense, but there are bulkier checks/counters to it out there outside of Alomomola. Pretty much any bulky Psychic makes a good check with some PDef investment. Some other members of the typical physically bulky crowd also fair pretty well against Lopunny.

 

[Nickos]

Mega Lopunny also has things like SubPuP, or just combining Fake out and Power-up Punch together which is not bad idea, at +1 she can 2HKO almost all those Pokemon with the exception of Cresselia, and Max Def Slowbro (which gets a guaranteed 2HKO with rocks) Adamant is a viable option on Lopunny now that Gren is gone, i just wanted to say this.

 

[AlphaGiratina]

Af

Calcs

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 138-163 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 183-216 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 44+ Def Mega Scizor: 144-171 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 153-181 (36.4 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 109-130 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 75.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lopunny may be hard to handle for offense, but there are bulkier checks/counters to it out there outside of Alomomola. Pretty much any bulky Psychic makes a good check with some PDef investment. Some other members of the typical physically bulky crowd also fair pretty well against Lopunny.

Admittably I did overlook a lot of things but stuff like Cress, Chesnaught, Alomomola, Mew, and Hippo are mostly common on stall. Like I said, this thing is amazing against balance. It does have numerous answers though, like you pointed out, but these don't stop Lopunny from literally being the definition of an S tier poke, being that it needs little to no support, is great at whatever it chooses to do and has high opportunity cost of not using it. It is tremendous in the OU tier and deserves S.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Af

Admittably I did overlook a lot of things but stuff like Cress, Chesnaught, Alomomola, Mew, and Hippo are mostly common on stall. Like I said, this thing is amazing against balance. It does have numerous answers though, like you pointed out, but these don't stop Lopunny from literally being the definition of an S tier poke, being that it needs little to no support, is great at whatever it chooses to do and has high opportunity cost of not using it. It is tremendous in the OU tier and deserves S.

I'm sorry, but being horrendously weak to BO and Stall isnt gonna cut the cake. The reason why she went to A+ is because she is less centralizing then before. Sure, its SubPuP set is ok, but it also has no recovery and it relies on being faster and getting 2HKO's.

The biggest problem about this guy is his horrible matchup against BO and Stall, and as Stall rises and BO rises also, we wont see much Bunny usage.

A+ is fine.

 

[Celticpride]

Af

Admittably I did overlook a lot of things but stuff like Cress, Chesnaught, Alomomola, Mew, and Hippo are mostly common on stall. Like I said, this thing is amazing against balance. It does have numerous answers though, like you pointed out, but these don't stop Lopunny from literally being the definition of an S tier poke, being that it needs little to no support, is great at whatever it chooses to do and has high opportunity cost of not using it. It is tremendous in the OU tier and deserves S.

Not really amazing against balanced. Balanced team use Chesnaught, PDef Gliscor, defensive Landorus-T, Hippo and Slowbro, among others as part of defensive cores. All stand at chance at checking depending on if it's Ice Punch or not. I mean, stuff like Alomomola and Skarm and Chansey, sure balanced doesn't use them much. Most solid balanced teams are fairly well prepared for Lopunny.

Mega Lopunny also has things like SubPuP, or just combining Fake out and Power-up Punch together which is not bad idea, at +1 she can 2HKO almost all those Pokemon with the exception of Cresselia, and Max Def Slowbro (which gets a guaranteed 2HKO with rocks) Adamant is a viable option on Lopunny now that Gren is gone, i just wanted to say this.

Adamant still isn't too great. More viable after the Gren ban, yes. Jolly is still better to handle some +1 DDers and other fast Megas, as well as Weavile. As for SubPuP, that helps against some but not all. Chesnaught, for example, can switch in on the PuP, and proceed to beat it with Drain Punch as no +1 moves KO Ches. Mew can also eat a PuP and a +1 Return, and burn it after it takes the Return. You also open yourself up to Lando-T and Gliscor by dropping Ice Punch for some kind of PuP combo. Lopunny can in theory take out all its counters but can't really do it all in one set, and without noticable drawbacks depending on what it drops. Lopunny is a very good mon, but it's not a meta-defining S Rank to me.

 

[Hellochi]

This may be off topic but Mega Venusaur A ----> A+

MegaVenu is really good rn, as a lot balanced builds have ferro/rotom cores which offensive MegaVenu eats up.
Offensive MegaVenu is also still buky enough to take many hits while dishing out some good damage.
MegaVenu also checks or counters Azumarill, Clefable, Mega Altaria, Bisharp, Breloom, Conkelldurr, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Mega Gyarados, Keldeo, Mega Lopunny, Mamoswine, Rotom-W, Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, Terrakion, Tyranitar. (Im sure there are more but i missed them)

That is only Offensive Mega Venu that is used on balance, but there is also defensive Mega Venu which is making a comeback on stall but i wont get into that right now.

 

[Roxachronic]

I think this magnezone conversation has gone a little far, almost everything to talk about has been said, so I think that we should come to another topic. The one I am seeing is Entei. In my opinion, it is the second best physical fire type behind Charizard X, which takes a mega slot. Infernape is good, but Entei gets a great moveset with E-Speed, Sacred Fire, Iron Head, Stone Edge, Bulldoze (In OU for heatran). This really great coverage, and paired with Speed and Power plus respectable bulk, and different sets, like assault vest and band, Entei is the most respectable physical fire type in ou that doesnt take up that helpful mega slot. My Vote is Entei from C to B-

I think it should rise since it also treats Megagross and M-Lopunny(alongside a good amount of physical mons.), can be a good soft-check to fairies, it has decent cleaning capabilities , I think I could somehow see it in B-,tough I am more convinced towards C+ atm.

 

[AlphaGiratina]

Anyone else think Noivern should rise?
This thing is quite a unique and, quite frankly, viable mon. The first thing that comes to mind when you think Noivern is his speed. He's not quite the fastest thing alive, but being the fastest unbolted dragon in the game has its perks. Infiltrator is a really nice ability for Noivern to have, allowing it to come in on ,say, a sub cm Keldeo and use a specs/LO Hurricane to get the KO. Noivern's move pool includes Flamethrower for Ferro + Mega Scizor, obvious Draco, the choice between Hurricane or Air Slash for nice special flying STAB, U-Turn for momentum scouting, and even Focus Blast if you wanna be that guy and hit Heatran; It also carries Taunt for possible crippling of stall/setup and the spammable, reliably powerful Boomburst for filler. Really, Noivern can carry whatever set your team requires. 95 SpA is solid when boosted by Specs or LO, obviously not the greatest, and 85/80/80 bulk isn't bad by any means.
However, Noivern obviously has hard counters such as Chansey and checks like Mamoswine/Weavile/Talonflame. In addition, he faces competition from Tornadus and Mega Pidgeot for the spot of a special flying type on your team. Mega Pidgeot sports more immediate power without the restrictions of specs or the constant wear of LO, although it is slower. Similarly, while both forms of Tornadus are slower and have to rely on Heat Wave to hit bulky steels, both can carry Knock Off + Superpower to inflict massive damage on Chansey. Tornadus T's regenerator is also nice for constant recovery and nullifying SR damage, pairing well with U-Turn; while Tornadus I has prankster taunt to instantly shut down opposing pranksters or speedy hazard-laying mons.
Despite these obvious flaws, Noivern has numerous niches in the OU tier, being a great revenge killer, an anti lead of sorts, or even a psuedo-wallbreaker of sorts (Dealing with Mega Venu and Gliscor is always nice). Overall it's clearly not the best mon in the tier, but it deserves a rise to C+

 

[Roxachronic]

Anyone else think Noivern should rise?
This thing is quite a unique and, quite frankly, viable mon. The first thing that comes to mind when you think Noivern is his speed. He's not quite the fastest thing alive, but being the fastest unbolted dragon in the game has its perks. Infiltrator is a really nice ability for Noivern to have, allowing it to come in on ,say, a sub cm Keldeo and use a specs/LO Hurricane to get the KO. Noivern's move pool includes Flamethrower for Ferro + Mega Scizor, obvious Draco, the choice between Hurricane or Air Slash for nice special flying STAB, U-Turn for momentum scouting, and even Focus Blast if you wanna be that guy and hit Heatran; It also carries Taunt for possible crippling of stall/setup and the spammable, reliably powerful Boomburst for filler. Really, Noivern can carry whatever set your team requires. 95 SpA is solid when boosted by Specs or LO, obviously not the greatest, and 85/80/80 bulk isn't bad by any means.
However, Noivern obviously has hard counters such as Chansey and checks like Mamoswine/Weavile/Talonflame. In addition, he faces competition from Tornadus and Mega Pidgeot for the spot of a special flying type on your team. Mega Pidgeot sports more immediate power without the restrictions of specs or the constant wear of LO, although it is slower. Similarly, while both forms of Tornadus are slower and have to rely on Heat Wave to hit bulky steels, both can carry Knock Off + Superpower to inflict massive damage on Chansey. Tornadus T's regenerator is also nice for constant recovery and nullifying SR damage, pairing well with U-Turn; while Tornadus I has prankster taunt to instantly shut down opposing pranksters or speedy hazard-laying mons.
Despite these obvious flaws, Noivern has numerous niches in the OU tier, being a great revenge killer, an anti lead of sorts, or even a psuedo-wallbreaker of sorts (Dealing with Mega Venu and Gliscor is always nice). Overall it's clearly not the best mon in the tier, but it deserves a rise to C+

I am not convinced tbh, it faces competition from Tornadus-T and M-Pidgeot as a pivot and Hurricane spammer, since they outrun practically the same things, but Tornadus-T is stronger and has more durability with Regenerator(something important because of SR.),and M-Pidgeot is more reliable(but takes a Mega spot.) Draco Meteor(his biggest difference against Tornadus-T) is nice to have, but if compared to Specs Latios it is much more manageable since the difference in power is significant(and the increase in usage a lot of Steels and Fairies out there does not help), both of them can become bait for setup mons because of the -2, but it is much more difficult to change into a Latios.

It has its uses, but it is outclassed in everything it does by another mon(pivoting,bird spamming,putting holes.), to be honest if Greninja was still in OU I think it would be great to put it higher, since it had the niche of outrunning and dealing with it, something Latios,Tornadus-T,M-Pidgeot(and a lot of OU) would kill for, but since that is no longer the case I am not really in favor of him in raising to C+, it would be good for cleaning if your primary STABs were not a 70% accuracy move and another that puts you at -2,(since Air Slash and Dragon Pulse lack power to be used effectively for cleaning.)

 

[Karxrida]

The only reason I can think of to use Noivern is for the lulz factor of Inflitratior+Switcheroo which can cripple SubCM Keldeo, but otherwise the stronger, bulkier, far more annoying Tornadus-T exists so just use that. I'd rather see it unranked to be honest unless there's something consistently useful about it.

 

[procrastinat]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but I noticed some troubles with links.

Heracross-Mega and Hippowdon share a link to Hera's page. Chansey and Chesnaught share a link to Chansey's page (that bundle also includes Dragonite's sprite). Lucario and Magneton also share a link to Lucario's page.

If anyone else can confirm this and fix it, that would be great.

 

[Kurona]

Toxicroak links to Sylveon.
Gorebyss links to Dugtrio.

Just went through the entire list; that's everything I could find aside from what the guy above me said.

 

[Adaam]

I'm sorry, but being horrendously weak to BO and Stall isnt gonna cut the cake. The reason why she went to A+ is because she is less centralizing then before. Sure, its SubPuP set is ok, but it also has no recovery and it relies on being faster and getting 2HKO's.

The biggest problem about this guy is his horrible matchup against BO and Stall, and as Stall rises and BO rises also, we wont see much Bunny usage.

A+ is fine.

Lopunny is not terrible vs Stall. It's actually really good. The SubEncore set is a great stall breaker set, and the SubPuP set is also effective against it, albeit a bit less due to the presence of Slowbro, Unaware, and Chesnaught. Regardless, SubEncore destroys stall and Imo Lopunny should rise back to S rank, as it gives Stall a hard time and completely shits on HO

 

[Roxachronic]

I'm sorry, but being horrendously weak to BO and Stall isnt gonna cut the cake. The reason why she went to A+ is because she is less centralizing then before. Sure, its SubPuP set is ok, but it also has no recovery and it relies on being faster and getting 2HKO's.

The biggest problem about this guy is his horrible matchup against BO and Stall, and as Stall rises and BO rises also, we wont see much Bunny usage.

A+ is fine.

Horrible matchup? its HJK is actually stronger than Megagross Meteor Mash, and its SubPuP can work against Stall,I am not saying it should go to S but you are underselling her.

 

[Alfalfa]

Horrible matchup? its HJK is actually stronger than Megagross Meteor Mash, and its SubPuP can work against Stall,I am not saying it should go to S but you are underselling her.

I should clarify that the difference in power between the two is marginal, but you are technically speaking correct:

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 187-222 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO