They're completely different pokemon, Skarmory loses way more momentum, doesn't take special hits anywhere near as well and doesn't beat common rock setters like Heatran.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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They're completely different pokemon, Skarmory loses way more momentum, doesn't take special hits anywhere near as well and doesn't beat common rock setters like Heatran.
I agree with Magnezone moving down to B+/B. As far as using it for a volt turn core I think it's outclassed by mega man or even rotom w. So then its most valuable niche is trapping steels like skarm or ferro, but if they're holding a shed shell that job doesn't work and it can get locked into the wrong move. It can be effective for taking out aforementioned steel types but other than that i don't see a real reason to use it
How is it outclassed by Mega Man or Rotom-W? You said it yourself, it's niche is trapping steel-types, which neither of those two pokemon do. Yes, they all volt switch, but they have completely different roles; mainly that the two you compared Magnezone to actually check or counter talonflame, while Magnzeone is outspeed by talonflame and fried with flare blitz.
You don't use zone in particular for a volt-turn core, you'd use Rotom-w, mega man, or Raikou for that.
Nonetheless, I agree with zone moving to B+ for the reasons stated earlier.
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In my experience, Custap is easily wasted as it's a one turn item, where Salac increases your speed for the amount of turns that your poke stays in. Spend your Custap on a layer of spikes instead of exploding, and your hazards are easily spun away. However, Max Speed Skarm outspeeds the Latis and Starmie at +1, making it much more difficult for your opponent to get rid of the hazards. +1 Max Speed Skarm outspeeds what it needs to; the only time Custap is better is when your opponent volt switches into wither Azu, Scizor, another slower 'mon with priority, or a >base 70 scarf mon, which is less common than you think.
My point was that it has volt switch but has a hard time using it effectively. Thus it doesn't fit in with a volt turn core
That is what he was trying to say also, he is not used exactly for volt switching, is just an option it has, his main goal is to trap steels.
Raikou/M-Manectric are more focused on building momentum, but neither of them can dispose of steels like Magnezone.
Still his niche is somewhat less useful and I can see why it dropped to B+.
I think we were both making the same points but I just worded it poorly. I also forgot to mention specs raikou which I feel has gained a lot of popularity recently
Mega Manectric walls Mega Scizor to hell and back and is arguably one of Mega Scizor's best offensive counters thanks to Flamethrower/Overheat. It also cripples with Intimidate. Magnezone still does it better thanks to Magnet Pull, but Mega Manectric scares most Steel-types in its own way.
I only addressed Mega Manectric countering Mega Scizor, which it does. Yes, it forces switches, but that's part of what Mega Manectric is supposed to do with Intimidate. While Volt Switch spamming is Mega Manectric's forte, it can go for the kill on Steels with Fire-type coverage. I did state Magnezone is far superior as a Steel Killer; heck, Magnezone is the Steel Killer and everyone knows that.
Magnezone is not really the steel killer as it only traps Scizor, Skarmory and Ferrohtorn.
Heatran doesn't care about Magnezone, Excadrill OHKOs Magnezone, Jirachi U-Turn's out, Metagross Hammer Arm or EQ kills it and Bisharp Knock Off + Sucker Punch (specs > bisharp tho, but loses 80% of his health)
Heatran doesn't care about Magnezone, Excadrill OHKOs Magnezone, Jirachi U-Turn's out, Metagross Hammer Arm or EQ kills it and Bisharp Knock Off + Sucker Punch (specs > bisharp tho, but loses 80% of his health)
I am not denying that, any special mon that has access to Flamethrower or HP Fire can threaten Scizor in fact, the difference is the ability to completely trap it.
-1 252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 112-133 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 144-171 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 128-151 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
Nice counter?
Yes it grabs momentum like nothing else, but my point is that Mega Manectric won't be removing Steel-types for your teammates as long as the switch button exists. I'm glad you know that Magnezone is the best Steel killer but Mega Manectric is not even close to what Magnezone is because the Steel-types can simply switch out.
This is not exactly true, you could run HP Ground for Heatran(In fact it is good to sue it with a Fire partner because that wasy you can deal with Ferro/Scizor and Heatran at the same time since Heatran likes to change into fire mons a lot.)If Excadrill is running Scarf he can be killed if trapped when using RS,Iron Head or Rock Slide, Jirachi not always carries U-Turn, and lets be real Megagross will almost never have EQ since he is bussy running Ice Punch/Agility/GK on the 4th moveslot(tough it will almost always carry Hammer Arm.),tough I am not sure how it fares in a 1 vs 1 match against it, but still it is good for killing it lategame when has has taken previous damage.
Still forces Mega Sciz out by nerfing its Attack enough for another Pokémon to comfortably switch in on it, e.g. Landorus-T. Tbh Mega Mane and Magnezone are way too different to compare outside of being Electric-types, so nvm the whole thing.
I already acknowledged that. Steel killing is Magnezone's forte.
Dropping the comparisons because Raikou, Mega Manectric and Magnezone are all far too different to compare. For the listed arguments, however, I do support Magnezone dropping to B+.
So what you are saying is megaman can come in on
any common move mega-scizor would carry, live the bullet punch, and then kill with overheat. So megaman forces mega-scizor to dry switch or try to predict and u-turn on the switch. Sounds a tad more reliable than potential getting wrecked with superpower on the switch with zone. Either way, zone is the trapper. Megaman is just a good stop as long as scizor hasn't gotten an sd off
What I'm saying is that Mega Manectric is far from a counter because it can only switch in once, and that's if it has Mega Evolved already. Scizor can just switch out after it has hit Mega Manectric, although admittedly losing momentum is not nice for the momentum based teams Scizor is usually part of. Magnezone can also not safely switch in against Scizor, that is true. And yes, Zone is a trapper, Mega Manectric is just a check.
Obviously me being here is bringing bad vibes.
I honestly do think it has enough of a niche to be C-/D. The amount of suicide Setters are very low. Azelf is the only one i can think of, actually, bar the extremely rare Explosion Landorus. Honestly, there are a few things, like Volt Switch and things like that, which is niche at best. Skarm and Ferro are kinda different, but Skarm does overshadow Ferro in the hazard setting department.
There are seriously a few amount of SR setters with VoltTurn. Its niche at best but with Custap it should be ranked, but no more than C-/C.
Empoleon is great in a meta full of fairy types for it to wall and set up on. It's very rare when you see a mon with nearly perfect hazard control and great bulk, along with a defensive typing like Empoleon's. Like yuruuu said, a defog user that resists sr is valuable on many teams. Empoleon can support itself very well, and its specs set is not its best sweeping set by any means. (That would be sub petaya) maybe if we have another fighting shift like from DP to BW and they become dominant again, Empoleon could fall to the C ranks, but for now it is the definition of a B rank mon.
See, the problem is is that its overlooked. Why would I use Empoleon, a weak offensive mon, over things like Jirachi, Excadrill, Mega Metagross, or Bisharp? He is slow, has no recovery, and he needs support to actually thrive.
If this guy gets Knocked Off, hes done. Hes just bait then. Lets not mention its horrible matchup against Offense, probably the most prominent playstyle rn. Keldeo, MLop, MMeta, MDiancie, etc. all can easily take it out.
Sadly, being extremely weak to one side of offense and meh against Stall isnt gonna cut it. It needs more than one feature to be good. Resisting Rocks while being the slowest hazard remover in the meta isnt good. Slow Scalds arent favored. It has mostly unused weaknesses, which include Normal, Rock, No one is putting a Steel without coverage on Empoleon, and Bug. This guy is really easy to get around and isnt threatening at all. In fact, this isnt a definition of even a C rank mon, but he just takes the cake for C. Keeping this thing in B- is like saying we should promote Metagross to AG imo.
Also reviving this dead ass topic
It has a crap load of resistances, it can clear hazards, use SR, is not Talonflame's food(unlike a lot of common SR setters or Hazard removers in the meta)which as you say is very prominent now because Offense is everywhere.
Those are some good reasons to use it IMO.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
You would use Empoleon for its nice resistances and many switch-ins, notably fairies, not as an offensive Pokemon. Empoleon is primarily defensive in ORAS, although I wish I could see subpetaya getting a new lease of life.
Knock Off Leftovers on Empoleon and it's useless is just a comment that is way off the mark. Not to mention that those are all Pokemon with very few switch-ins to begin with.
Also, I do not think offensive teams are using Empoleon any more than they are using Chansey.
Empoleon should stay at its current rank, if anything it is a little underrated for what it can do.
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252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 237-279 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clearing Hazards and having a resistance to only stealth rocks, mind you, isnt amazing. Even with 10 resists, like 6 matter and it fares really bad against Offense. Everything in S rank can kill it with ease. Many things in the A ranks kill it with ease.
If you need a good Defogger with a lot of resists, use the guy. But he isnt much more useful afterwards. He fits on specific teams.
Why do you guys want this dude in B-? You're bringing a slow, semi bulky pokemon that is basically useless except for clearing hazards (Which Latios does fine, so does Starmie and Excadrill, too, and so does fucking flygon)
Thats a great way to start off an argument.
Basically I should use a pokemon with no Recovery to tank hits and throw scalds and other offense moves and Defog back at other pokemon? Seems decent, except the fact that Empoleon has the same offensive threat as Smeargle with Tackle. I'm not gonna use a Steel that is slow and does nothing but tank shit then a Jirachi who supports my entire team with spreading status and actually having offensive pressure.
I really dont understand what you said here, but I'll try and evaluate it.
Azumarill, Scizor, and everything else on switchin loves to Knock Off Empoleons only way of survival.
W... What?
Seriously, its a bulky wall that can run support, but as some people say, you cant have the best of both worlds. You run an Offensive set to pick off others, or you run Defog and Scald to give decent support to your team, even though you have the offensive presence of Alomomola if you do so.
I would honestly think this guy is C+ material, because it has way too many flaws and the metagame is really shitting on it right now. B- is kinda pushing a pokemon we only used for Greninja.
I never used Empoleon for Geninja because of GK and Low Kick, in fact I think it is more usbale now that Greninja is gone.
Of course he is not offensive threat, it is focused on supporting not in dealing damage.
Latios cannot put SR and risks being killed by Talonflame.
You're just proclaming how he is not good at being an offensive threat(something ti is not supposed to be.) instead of talking focused on his support capabilities.
Imagine if we based Greninja's banning by how much hits it survives, or Chansey's placing about what mons it can OHKO, it is kind of unfair don't you think?
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