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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
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Appreciate the effort friend :) We'll take care of it though. I don't want to clutter the page.
Kyurem doesn't have a 4x weakness, but it has GOD AWFUL typing. The typing gives it weaknesses to Stealth Rock, Bullet Punch, Fairies, Dragons, and random Stone Misses. Also, as you mentioned, the speed leaves a lot to be desired. I'm not saying Kyurem would be bad by any means; I'm saying that it should be held in check. I also don't really want to invalidate defensive cores, so I'm not entirely keen on voting for it.
Rotom-S + Steel/Flash Cannon: Okay, I can understand how this comes off as receiving two buffs. That's not what we really intended to do. What we did was try to fit flavor to the submission, and seeing as flavor dictates that it MUST have a move of the type it changes into, we followed that protocol.
Got to be honest, Rotom-S is the only one that really interests me out of this slate. Kyurem is just another wallbreaker to me, basically just a better Mega Glalie; Galvantula I've discussed in length on Skype and I just do not see what this has that makes it good; and Jellicent is... eh. Reflect Type is the sort of thing that's best to throw on something that's already a good defensive Pokémon as a little extra; it isn't going to be making anything relevant in OU any time soon. None of these three really offer anything new or interesting to the meta in my honest opinion; sorry guys.
Rotom-S brings something completely new to the table, however. Before getting into it I would like to state that I enjoy the precedence this nomination sets; that the council is prepared to accept a nomination which takes into account the base idea of the Pokémon and makes it work. Basically it's taking into account that Rotom-S would get Flash Cannon and not Air Slash from the form change and hence isn't ass; the council isn't afraid to give a secondary buff for this purpose. I like that. And obviously it's no coincidence that this happened now of all times; you needed bae Recreant in the council <3
Now onto the actual nomination, there's a lot of things I like about this. First off, we've never had a defensive electric/steel type before. Yeah Magnezone definitely has nice bulk but it was never used as a defensive Pokémon and it doesn't work well as one; giving the electric/steel typing to something with extremely solid defences that have been proven on Smogon Washing Machine™ and an ability which removes it's biggest weakness brings something significant, new and interesting into the metagame which we've never really had the chance to try out before. Not only that, but I think something else it indirectly has the potential to do is create a bigger opportunity cost -- Rotom-W, while not as omnipresent as it was in early XY is still very common; with the recent January stats for 1825 placing it as the 12th most used Pokémon in OU, on 14.35116% of all teams. The only opportunity cost it has is Rotom-H, which... eeeeh... y'know. Not that good. But Rotom-S could change this. If it turns out to be very good which I highly suspect, this could make Rotom-W less common and hence make OU more diverse and interesting. For being a significantly new and interesting addition to the metagame, creating opportunity cost for a usually splashable Pokémon and pretty much being the only interesting thing on this slate, Rotom-S is going to get my vote.
now please make something that makes the landos less common
Rotom-S brings something completely new to the table, however. Before getting into it I would like to state that I enjoy the precedence this nomination sets; that the council is prepared to accept a nomination which takes into account the base idea of the Pokémon and makes it work. Basically it's taking into account that Rotom-S would get Flash Cannon and not Air Slash from the form change and hence isn't ass; the council isn't afraid to give a secondary buff for this purpose. I like that. And obviously it's no coincidence that this happened now of all times; you needed bae Recreant in the council <3
Now onto the actual nomination, there's a lot of things I like about this. First off, we've never had a defensive electric/steel type before. Yeah Magnezone definitely has nice bulk but it was never used as a defensive Pokémon and it doesn't work well as one; giving the electric/steel typing to something with extremely solid defences that have been proven on Smogon Washing Machine™ and an ability which removes it's biggest weakness brings something significant, new and interesting into the metagame which we've never really had the chance to try out before. Not only that, but I think something else it indirectly has the potential to do is create a bigger opportunity cost -- Rotom-W, while not as omnipresent as it was in early XY is still very common; with the recent January stats for 1825 placing it as the 12th most used Pokémon in OU, on 14.35116% of all teams. The only opportunity cost it has is Rotom-H, which... eeeeh... y'know. Not that good. But Rotom-S could change this. If it turns out to be very good which I highly suspect, this could make Rotom-W less common and hence make OU more diverse and interesting. For being a significantly new and interesting addition to the metagame, creating opportunity cost for a usually splashable Pokémon and pretty much being the only interesting thing on this slate, Rotom-S is going to get my vote.
Not saying I wouldn't want to play with kyurem, I'm all for massive nukes like that but it does kinda seem a little... Bland. Rotom-s, however has a ton of character and is certainly interesting competitively. It fills a different role than the other rotom forms and is definitely really interesting. Personally I hate rotom because no reliable recovery, but it'd get my vote for this slate.
The reason I considered Kyurem not having a 4x weakness a concern is I was worried it might've had enough bulk to tank a SE hit or two, but its not as bad as I thought it might be. Non-banded Azumarill OHKOs, Banded Scizor Bullet Punch OHKOs, Mega Diancie OHKOs with both STABs, Mega Lopunny OHKOs, and so on. Offensive teams look like they can handle it quite well, now I just need to see if balance and stall can too.
I understand the flavor reasoning on Rotom-S, but I really don't like the precedent it sets. Firstly, there's 3 changes made to it instead of 1 like everything else. Secondly, by removing Air Slash and giving it Flash Cannon and Electric/Steel typing you've essentially just made up a new Rotom form. I feel like it veers off into CAP or fakemon territory.
If it weren't for that though it'd be my favorite of the slate. Its quite close to Magnezone stat-wise (faster, slightly less physically bulky, less SpA), but its main advantage is its invaluable ground immunity and Will-O-Wisp which should make it much better defensively. Its also got Pain Split, so it also has some recovery.
I understand the flavor reasoning on Rotom-S, but I really don't like the precedent it sets. Firstly, there's 3 changes made to it instead of 1 like everything else. Secondly, by removing Air Slash and giving it Flash Cannon and Electric/Steel typing you've essentially just made up a new Rotom form. I feel like it veers off into CAP or fakemon territory.
If it weren't for that though it'd be my favorite of the slate. Its quite close to Magnezone stat-wise (faster, slightly less physically bulky, less SpA), but its main advantage is its invaluable ground immunity and Will-O-Wisp which should make it much better defensively. Its also got Pain Split, so it also has some recovery.
You're not supposed to care about the amount of Pokemon's changes or any of that, just vote if you like it. Stop being so picky.
Since I flaked on giving my opinion on the last batch, let me try and rectify that with this slate:
- Sheer Force Kyurem: Now don't get me wrong; I think this is a really cool entry (heh). However, as the guy running the teambuilding thread, I can tell you that we have a LOT of wallbreakers in OU. I honestly just don't think we need more wall breakers
- Jellicent + Reflect Type: As others have mentioned, I just feel that this doesn't deal with much more than what it already deals with, which is a fairly small number of threats. You also have to figure out what you want to drop between Scald, Recover, Toxic/Will-o-Wisp and Taunt, and it really wants all 4.
- Steel-Type Rotom-S: Now this one I like. Its typing gives it a large number of switch-ins that Rotom-W really can't deal with and gives us a reasonably useful Steel pivot whose name isn't Scizor.
- Quiver Dance Galvantula: While not a bad improvement, Sticky Webs as a team archetype is already very match-up reliant, and as cleaner its movepool is as barren as Volcarona's, and it also lacks a lot of Volcarona's power:
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
All in all, I'm leaning towards Rotom-S just because it's unique and adds more to the meta than Kyurem. And for those who don't like it having Flash Cannon, I have one thing to say: Steel with it (I swear I'm done with the puns for now).252+ SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
Always wanted to see AM on this thread. he seemed like a pretty reasonable voice in the chaos of the megagross suspect. Anyways, here are my thoughts on the slate:
Sheer Force+ Kyurem: would this remove the draco meteor sp.a drop? probably not. if it does, that's insane. actually, this whole mon sounds pretty ridiculous. he hits stupidly hard, and still doesn't patch up his speed. suppose you could slap a scarf on him for revenge killing, or just plain killing your enemies. don't know if i'd vote for this one.
Jelicent: with his abysmal speed, reflect type isn't all that helpful. the things that can hit him hard will nail him before he can reflect types.
rotom-steel: sounds like a pretty good idea. it seems to have been awhile since we last slated a type change, and this one seems pretty apt.mold breaker exadrill says hi He's a pretty darn good bulky pivot as well as a fairy check. One quick thought: would keeping air slash be of any benefit? seems like his move choices are kinda limited, so we could potentially keep air slash anyways. plus, as a fan having air slash seems to make sense no matter what type he is. Anyways, cool submission, guys!
Q.D. Galvantula: might be decent, but it lacks the power to hurt common switch ins, and gets cleanly OHKO'd by landorous-t after it switches, as well as every version of heatran, etc. you're gonna have to remove all its checks thoroughly before trying to sweep here.
all things considered, I think Rotom-steel sounds pretty great here.
Sheer Force+ Kyurem: would this remove the draco meteor sp.a drop? probably not. if it does, that's insane. actually, this whole mon sounds pretty ridiculous. he hits stupidly hard, and still doesn't patch up his speed. suppose you could slap a scarf on him for revenge killing, or just plain killing your enemies. don't know if i'd vote for this one.
Jelicent: with his abysmal speed, reflect type isn't all that helpful. the things that can hit him hard will nail him before he can reflect types.
rotom-steel: sounds like a pretty good idea. it seems to have been awhile since we last slated a type change, and this one seems pretty apt.
Q.D. Galvantula: might be decent, but it lacks the power to hurt common switch ins, and gets cleanly OHKO'd by landorous-t after it switches, as well as every version of heatran, etc. you're gonna have to remove all its checks thoroughly before trying to sweep here.
all things considered, I think Rotom-steel sounds pretty great here.
No. We are not keeping Air Slash. That would be a clear second buff. The thought process behind swapping out Air Slash for Flash Cannon was that the secondary buff (Flash Cannon) would be matched with a nerf (Air Slash); additionally, the rules were bent so that flavor would be preserved completely. Every Rotom form gets a signature move, and with Electric/Steel typing, Air Slash would contradict flavor entirely.
Yeah, plus the fact that air slash really wouldn't help him that much, IMO
I'll just go through each one in no particular order.
Kyurem + Sheer Force: this is a great buff to Kyu, obviously. Being able to rip 50% off of Metagross with a resisted attack is nuts, although I don't think anyone would switch one in on Kyurem. SF also means that Kyu doesn't need its Dragon STAB (lol Dragonbreath) so it could conceivably run 3 attacks + roost with Iron Head or even subroost + 2 attacks because the coverage and power of Ice Beam + Earth Power hits tons of stuff really hard. Hell, even the miss chance on Blizzard looks like less of a problem because of how stupidly powerful it is.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 304-359 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 273-321 (69.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
But even Ice Beam will deal with Clef unless it's unusually invested in SDef:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 222-263 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Oh my stars.
Rotom-Fan => Electric/Steel + Flash Cannon - Air Slash
I'm really not sure about this one. It's really nice against fairies and the like but gets shredded by Flyspam coverage. It is immune to both Toxic and paralysis, though, which gives it the Heatran-esque quality of getting in easily on predicted status moves. Rotom can then Volt Switch away to something that can deal with the switch-in, which is a good way to preserve momentum. It can also spread burns and trick scarves, which is nice. I do really like how the typing change allows Fan to be paired with Water-types more easily; even though Wash only stacks a grass weakness with other water types, it'd be nice to be able to run a Rotom forme and something like Starmie on a team without worrying quite so much about M-Scept, M-Venu usw.
Quiver Dance Galvantula
This dumb spider just can't catch a break. QD is nice as an offensive buff but I can't see how it would work in practice. I'm guessing the final set for a QD + 3 Attacks set would be Thunder + Bug Buzz + Giga Drain, which is like a worse version of Volcarona's (who is actually really really good at the moment). Sure, Galvantula doesn't have Volc's nasty quad SR weakness, but Galvantula is so frail on both sides that it would fall quickly even to weak, neutral attacks. At least Volc has some special bulk and reliable recovery in Roost.
I suppose you could run Sticky Web + QD + 2 Attacks, but that doesn't even sound remotely good because you'd probably be better off VSing away or whacking something with Thunder than trying to set up.
Jellicent + Reflect Type
I like this one a bit more than most of y'all, judging from the comments. The cool thing that Jelli has over Starmie is that it can block Rapid Spin while scaring away common spinners: Excadrill and Starmie. Reflect Type is supposed to be used as those spinners switch out to Bisharp or Ferro as opposed to Starmie, which relies on its speed rather than its ability to force switches to get the Reflect Type off. It is a bit more prediction-reliant than Starmie, and is more of a balance/stall mon.
I'm pretty undecided at this point, which is a testament to how good this slate is. Cheers!
Kyurem + Sheer Force: this is a great buff to Kyu, obviously. Being able to rip 50% off of Metagross with a resisted attack is nuts, although I don't think anyone would switch one in on Kyurem. SF also means that Kyu doesn't need its Dragon STAB (lol Dragonbreath) so it could conceivably run 3 attacks + roost with Iron Head or even subroost + 2 attacks because the coverage and power of Ice Beam + Earth Power hits tons of stuff really hard. Hell, even the miss chance on Blizzard looks like less of a problem because of how stupidly powerful it is.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 304-359 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 273-321 (69.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
But even Ice Beam will deal with Clef unless it's unusually invested in SDef:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 222-263 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Oh my stars.
Rotom-Fan => Electric/Steel + Flash Cannon - Air Slash
I'm really not sure about this one. It's really nice against fairies and the like but gets shredded by Flyspam coverage. It is immune to both Toxic and paralysis, though, which gives it the Heatran-esque quality of getting in easily on predicted status moves. Rotom can then Volt Switch away to something that can deal with the switch-in, which is a good way to preserve momentum. It can also spread burns and trick scarves, which is nice. I do really like how the typing change allows Fan to be paired with Water-types more easily; even though Wash only stacks a grass weakness with other water types, it'd be nice to be able to run a Rotom forme and something like Starmie on a team without worrying quite so much about M-Scept, M-Venu usw.
Quiver Dance Galvantula
This dumb spider just can't catch a break. QD is nice as an offensive buff but I can't see how it would work in practice. I'm guessing the final set for a QD + 3 Attacks set would be Thunder + Bug Buzz + Giga Drain, which is like a worse version of Volcarona's (who is actually really really good at the moment). Sure, Galvantula doesn't have Volc's nasty quad SR weakness, but Galvantula is so frail on both sides that it would fall quickly even to weak, neutral attacks. At least Volc has some special bulk and reliable recovery in Roost.
I suppose you could run Sticky Web + QD + 2 Attacks, but that doesn't even sound remotely good because you'd probably be better off VSing away or whacking something with Thunder than trying to set up.
Jellicent + Reflect Type
I like this one a bit more than most of y'all, judging from the comments. The cool thing that Jelli has over Starmie is that it can block Rapid Spin while scaring away common spinners: Excadrill and Starmie. Reflect Type is supposed to be used as those spinners switch out to Bisharp or Ferro as opposed to Starmie, which relies on its speed rather than its ability to force switches to get the Reflect Type off. It is a bit more prediction-reliant than Starmie, and is more of a balance/stall mon.
I'm pretty undecided at this point, which is a testament to how good this slate is. Cheers!
I'm from Florida, so I had to use this. Anyways, despite my desire for good ice types, Rotom-Fan will probably be winning my vote due to creativity.
I'm pretty hyped for Rotom-Fan, to be honest. Electric-Steel is actually a really good defensive type when paired with Levitate. Two weaknesses, three neutralities and it either resists or is immune to everything else. Throw in Stealth Rock resistance, immunity to poison and paralysis and the fact that it doesn't really mind being burned, and it can switch in on just about anything.
Yeah Steel + Electric is just so good, especially with levitate leaving it at only 2 weaknesses. Plus he makes a good fairy check with flash cannon. Move over Rotom-Wash, make way for the new best rotom form!
Sheer Force Kyurem: This would definitely be a bit overpowered as a wallbreaker, but I doubt it would be broken in general. Sheer Force Kyurem would have so much going for it, as the free 33% boost to Ice Beam, Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Flash Cannon definitely helps, and giving it a Life Orb is would make it so powerful at no cost. Despite the bad defensive typing, Kyurem does have a lot of bulk to take a hit, so a good deal of offensive Pokemon won't be able to break Kyurem before it breaks them. However, Kyurem-B's crappy defensive typing leaves it wide open to a lot of things, like Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Charizard X, Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, Latios, Mega Gallade, Mega Gardevoir, and a bunch of other things, and having a Stealth Rock weakness can greatly effect its bulk. But just from the wallbreaker perspective, there are very few safe switches to this monstrosity, and not that many defensive Pokemon can take attacks that powerful. Kyurem might break defensive cores, but I doubt it'll be broken as a whole. This is a bit of a daring Theorymon, but I don't think it would be too much for OU to handle.
Reflect Type Jellicent: I see where this is coming from, but it just wouldn't work out at all. Jellicent is way too slow to properly use Reflect Type, as it's almost always going to get hit before changing its type. The reason why Reflect Type Starmie and Latias work is because of their good Speed tiers that allow them to change type before getting hit, but Jellicent lacks that Speed, so it would only get the chance to change its type on either uninvested base 60's or attackers that don't have an easy time against Jellicent anyways. Jellicent would also have to give up a moveslot to use Reflect Type, with three of those moveslots being mandatory for Scald, Recover, and either Toxic or Will-O-Wisp, so you'd be giving up on Ice Beam or Taunt, both of which have important uses. Good effort, but I gotta say no.
Electric/Steel Flash Cannon Rotom-F: Now this is a pretty cool Theorymon, breaking ground as the first Theorymon to get two changes and whatnot (at least the first I've seen before). With the new Steel typing and Levitate actually being useful now, Rotom-F now boasts 11 resistances and two immunities, including coveted paralysis and Toxic immunities, as well as a very nifty Stealth Rock resistance. Mega Diancie, non-Superpower Landorus-T, Latios, Thundurus, Sand Rush Excadrill, Diggersby, regular Gyarados, Mamoswine, Mega Beedrill, and Dragonite are all beaten by Rotom-F, so you know that this thing has some defensive prowess. Sure, Mold Breakers and users of Fighting- and Fire-type moves can slip past Rotom-F more easily now, but gaining a crap-ton of resistances, an extra immunity, a Stealth Rock resistance, and two status immunities REALLY outweights any of its flaws. Definitely getting my vote.
Quiver Dance Galvantula: I wanted this to work, I really wanted this to work. Sadly, the more I look at this, the less I think it'll succeed as a Theorymon. With Quiver Dance, Galvantula could be a powerful sweeper in theory, as 91% accurate Thunders are pretty powerful, especially if they get a Quiver Dance boost, and a +1 sweeper with 108 base Speed can be pretty hard to revenge kill outside of Talonflame, Choice Scarf, and weather sweepers. Galvantula could threaten Keldeo, Gengar, Mega Gyarados, non-Choice Scarf Latios, Mega Aerodactyl, and Tornadus-T after a single Quiver Dance boost, so it's got the sweeper part down. But I'd honestly rather just use Volcarona as a Quiver Dance sweeper, simply because Volcarona has significantly more power, visibly better bulk, a better STAB attack in Fiery Dance to consistently gain power even when not using Quiver Dance, and recovery in Roost. Sure, Galvantula has a paralysis immunity and lacks a 4x Stelth Rock weakness, but it still has a 2x Stealth Rock weakness, and its horrific bulk means that any hit will be fatal anyways, so getting the chance to set up requires more support and planning than it's worth. I just pray that we get that one buff to Galvantula that can let it shine. One day.
Reflect Type Jellicent: I see where this is coming from, but it just wouldn't work out at all. Jellicent is way too slow to properly use Reflect Type, as it's almost always going to get hit before changing its type. The reason why Reflect Type Starmie and Latias work is because of their good Speed tiers that allow them to change type before getting hit, but Jellicent lacks that Speed, so it would only get the chance to change its type on either uninvested base 60's or attackers that don't have an easy time against Jellicent anyways. Jellicent would also have to give up a moveslot to use Reflect Type, with three of those moveslots being mandatory for Scald, Recover, and either Toxic or Will-O-Wisp, so you'd be giving up on Ice Beam or Taunt, both of which have important uses. Good effort, but I gotta say no.
Electric/Steel Flash Cannon Rotom-F: Now this is a pretty cool Theorymon, breaking ground as the first Theorymon to get two changes and whatnot (at least the first I've seen before). With the new Steel typing and Levitate actually being useful now, Rotom-F now boasts 11 resistances and two immunities, including coveted paralysis and Toxic immunities, as well as a very nifty Stealth Rock resistance. Mega Diancie, non-Superpower Landorus-T, Latios, Thundurus, Sand Rush Excadrill, Diggersby, regular Gyarados, Mamoswine, Mega Beedrill, and Dragonite are all beaten by Rotom-F, so you know that this thing has some defensive prowess. Sure, Mold Breakers and users of Fighting- and Fire-type moves can slip past Rotom-F more easily now, but gaining a crap-ton of resistances, an extra immunity, a Stealth Rock resistance, and two status immunities REALLY outweights any of its flaws. Definitely getting my vote.
Quiver Dance Galvantula: I wanted this to work, I really wanted this to work. Sadly, the more I look at this, the less I think it'll succeed as a Theorymon. With Quiver Dance, Galvantula could be a powerful sweeper in theory, as 91% accurate Thunders are pretty powerful, especially if they get a Quiver Dance boost, and a +1 sweeper with 108 base Speed can be pretty hard to revenge kill outside of Talonflame, Choice Scarf, and weather sweepers. Galvantula could threaten Keldeo, Gengar, Mega Gyarados, non-Choice Scarf Latios, Mega Aerodactyl, and Tornadus-T after a single Quiver Dance boost, so it's got the sweeper part down. But I'd honestly rather just use Volcarona as a Quiver Dance sweeper, simply because Volcarona has significantly more power, visibly better bulk, a better STAB attack in Fiery Dance to consistently gain power even when not using Quiver Dance, and recovery in Roost. Sure, Galvantula has a paralysis immunity and lacks a 4x Stelth Rock weakness, but it still has a 2x Stealth Rock weakness, and its horrific bulk means that any hit will be fatal anyways, so getting the chance to set up requires more support and planning than it's worth. I just pray that we get that one buff to Galvantula that can let it shine. One day.
I guess I should go over why I don't like the other guys in this slate, huh?
Kyurem + Sheer Force: This would very obviously send it into OU as a top wallbreaker. It's a very good buff, it's not outclassed by anything, probably puts Mega Glalie out of a job. The problem I have is that it's not actually anything new. If you look at Kyurem's stats and Kyurem-B's stats, the only difference aside from the offences is a +10 in defence, which is fairly inconsequential. So essentially all this nom really does is grab Kyurem-B, takes away Outrage and Fusion Bolt and makes it's already amazing special attacking prowess pants-shittingly better. It's nothing new and does nothing Kyurem-B doesn't already, and while it does do what Kyurem-B does better, it is again not anything the metagame hasn't seen before. And has Sanger Zonvolt says we have enough wallbreakers in the tier; give stall a break guys lol.
Jellicent + Reflect Type: For the most part this has been gone over in the thread already, but I want to say that to me, Reflect Type is more a nice little extra option or tool to give to something that's already viable and good. It's not going to make anything viable any time soon; it's more akin to a gimmick -- hell, the only Pokémon in the game that utilizes it - correct me if I'm wrong, there might be another - is Starmie, and that's not even it's main set. This move does nothing to solve Jellicent's massive problems and as people have said, it's too slow to utilize it well and it's not really doing anything after it uses it.
Galvantula + Quiver Dance: My heart breaks for this thing. It really does. Galvantula is probably like my favourite Gen 5 'mon so I want it to be good but by god, sweeping is not where it's potential lies. Alright, after a Quiver Dance it does match Scarf Keld/Terra and is only outsped by weather sweepers, Scarf Latios/Gengar and some 'mon that are at +2 already like Sharpedo and Lando. But as many have iterated, that's just not enough. I guess the idea is Thunder, but... Galvantula still doesn't have the power nor the coverage and I'd honestly still rather be using Volcarona. Who, by the way, with 252+ speed at +1 is only outsped by these things Galvantula isn't:
And... uh... well fuck, again, why do I want to use this over Volcarona? It has a lot of trouble setting up, it doesn't have the power, sweeping just isn't it's job. Please, someone suggest something good for this thing already ;n;
Kyurem + Sheer Force: This would very obviously send it into OU as a top wallbreaker. It's a very good buff, it's not outclassed by anything, probably puts Mega Glalie out of a job. The problem I have is that it's not actually anything new. If you look at Kyurem's stats and Kyurem-B's stats, the only difference aside from the offences is a +10 in defence, which is fairly inconsequential. So essentially all this nom really does is grab Kyurem-B, takes away Outrage and Fusion Bolt and makes it's already amazing special attacking prowess pants-shittingly better. It's nothing new and does nothing Kyurem-B doesn't already, and while it does do what Kyurem-B does better, it is again not anything the metagame hasn't seen before. And has Sanger Zonvolt says we have enough wallbreakers in the tier; give stall a break guys lol.
Jellicent + Reflect Type: For the most part this has been gone over in the thread already, but I want to say that to me, Reflect Type is more a nice little extra option or tool to give to something that's already viable and good. It's not going to make anything viable any time soon; it's more akin to a gimmick -- hell, the only Pokémon in the game that utilizes it - correct me if I'm wrong, there might be another - is Starmie, and that's not even it's main set. This move does nothing to solve Jellicent's massive problems and as people have said, it's too slow to utilize it well and it's not really doing anything after it uses it.
Galvantula + Quiver Dance: My heart breaks for this thing. It really does. Galvantula is probably like my favourite Gen 5 'mon so I want it to be good but by god, sweeping is not where it's potential lies. Alright, after a Quiver Dance it does match Scarf Keld/Terra and is only outsped by weather sweepers, Scarf Latios/Gengar and some 'mon that are at +2 already like Sharpedo and Lando. But as many have iterated, that's just not enough. I guess the idea is Thunder, but... Galvantula still doesn't have the power nor the coverage and I'd honestly still rather be using Volcarona. Who, by the way, with 252+ speed at +1 is only outsped by these things Galvantula isn't:
518 / Mega Altaria, Dragonite, Kabutops / 80 / Neutral / 252 / +2
510 / Diggersby / 78 / Neutral / 252 / +2
508 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 192 / +2
499 / Garchomp / 102 / +Spe / 252 / +1
(scarf galvantula new meta to beat kabutops yn)
510 / Diggersby / 78 / Neutral / 252 / +2
508 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 192 / +2
499 / Garchomp / 102 / +Spe / 252 / +1
(scarf galvantula new meta to beat kabutops yn)
And... uh... well fuck, again, why do I want to use this over Volcarona? It has a lot of trouble setting up, it doesn't have the power, sweeping just isn't it's job. Please, someone suggest something good for this thing already ;n;
i dont have a solid view on the slate atm, but would just like to point out that none of the Rotom forms have their secondary STAB move with 100% accuracy(Air Slash, Hydro Pump, Leaf Storm), which Flash Cannon does, so i suggest it be given Mirror Shot instead. nice move imo n_n
There's no actual clear pattern in terms of accuracy here. What is true is that the Rotom forms were given the move that was the most powerful special variant of it's type at the time that wasn't a signature, hence Flash Cannon makes perfect sense.
didn't know that, just followed the pattern(thought hurricane was in dpp) my bad :(
I want to highlight how amazing the Rotom-S/Clefable core would be. Together, they resist/are immune every type except for Water, Fire, and Ghost. That's pretty damn amazing for a two-mon core. Additionally, Rotom not only switches in on every super-effective move aimed at Clefable (it's immune to one of them, and it quad-resists the other) but it can threaten the opponent's next move with either WoW or Volt-Switch to keep momentum. Combine this with some hazard support and a bulky Water and you can wear the opponent's team down to a point where you can just clean up the mess. I would expect Rotom-S to be an excellent glue for a lot of teams.
EDIT: Clefable contributes to this core by providing a safe switch in to Fighting attacks aimed at Rotom, and it can pass Wishes to keep Rotom healthy all game long.
SECOND EDIT: possible bulky Water teammates: Manaphy to set up on Sableye and sweep/wallbreak; Mantine to eat Choice-locked Keldeo alive and keep Gengar at bay; Suicune to 6-0 unprepared teams (Clefable can support 'Cune very nicely); Mega Gyarados resists Ghost and says "NOM" to opposing stall teams; Azumarill resists everything that threatens Rotom, so the AV set should pair extremely nicely.
EDIT: Clefable contributes to this core by providing a safe switch in to Fighting attacks aimed at Rotom, and it can pass Wishes to keep Rotom healthy all game long.
SECOND EDIT: possible bulky Water teammates: Manaphy to set up on Sableye and sweep/wallbreak; Mantine to eat Choice-locked Keldeo alive and keep Gengar at bay; Suicune to 6-0 unprepared teams (Clefable can support 'Cune very nicely); Mega Gyarados resists Ghost and says "NOM" to opposing stall teams; Azumarill resists everything that threatens Rotom, so the AV set should pair extremely nicely.
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If we're allowed to theorymon on further teambuilding; would Manaphy not make a good finisher to that core? Resists fire and water - only two mon in the tier use ghost moves and one of them's sableye so whatever - and could serve as an excellent wallbreaker supported by Clef and Rotom wearing opponents down.
Alrighty, kyurem + sheer force is a guaranteed strong wall breaker, so I like it just fine
Reflect type is pretty gimmicky, so I don't think I'll vote for it, no matter how much I like jellyfish
We've talked about galvantula, and I don't see him being hugely viable.
Rotom is the one I like most. That typing + levitate, the proven usefulness of Rotom as a support mon, it's just my favorite to think about.
I am torn because I don't quite see how this isn't 2 buffs in one, it does make sense, but it doesn't quite feel right. I'll probably still vote for it anyway though
Reflect type is pretty gimmicky, so I don't think I'll vote for it, no matter how much I like jellyfish
We've talked about galvantula, and I don't see him being hugely viable.
Rotom is the one I like most. That typing + levitate, the proven usefulness of Rotom as a support mon, it's just my favorite to think about.
I am torn because I don't quite see how this isn't 2 buffs in one, it does make sense, but it doesn't quite feel right. I'll probably still vote for it anyway though
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Sheer Force Kyurem: Downright scary, a new ice type addition would be really cool seeing as mamoswine and kyurem B are the only things I know of above C rank right now. It can even go mixed with some interesting moves it has access to like iron head, rock slide, and zen headbutt.
Reflect type Jellicent: It could have some uses but seems pretty gimicky, using reflect type on a switch in could prove to be quite useful. Idk, feels a little tooooo niche.
Quiver Dance Galvantula: Oh man I wish this could work, the spider just seems to have too many bulk and coverage issues to be viable with quiver dance. If you run sticky web you really miss out on coverage and without sticky web I don't see much reason to use this over volcarona. The moth even has giga drain to deal with the water types you might want the spider for. If galvantula had blizzard access this would be really cool.
Steel Rotom: Just nice, avoiding fighting and fire isn't hard with volt switch and teammates like the latis, altaria, azumarril and slowbro sitting in the upper echelons of the tier. This guy could give great switchin opportunities for those guys to setup or attack/rek things outright. Probably my vote.
Reflect type Jellicent: It could have some uses but seems pretty gimicky, using reflect type on a switch in could prove to be quite useful. Idk, feels a little tooooo niche.
Quiver Dance Galvantula: Oh man I wish this could work, the spider just seems to have too many bulk and coverage issues to be viable with quiver dance. If you run sticky web you really miss out on coverage and without sticky web I don't see much reason to use this over volcarona. The moth even has giga drain to deal with the water types you might want the spider for. If galvantula had blizzard access this would be really cool.
Steel Rotom: Just nice, avoiding fighting and fire isn't hard with volt switch and teammates like the latis, altaria, azumarril and slowbro sitting in the upper echelons of the tier. This guy could give great switchin opportunities for those guys to setup or attack/rek things outright. Probably my vote.
Christ, this isn't giving it two buffs people, its just common sense. The water-typed Rotom gets Hydro Pump, the fire-typed Rotom gets Overheat, so obviously, a steel-typed Rotom would get Flash Cannon. Anyway, Rotom-F is easily the best one here, good typing, good type synergy with other Pokemon, a perfect ability to pair with it. Kyurem is a close second, but its just more of what the tier already has. The other two need nothing more said about them, they just aren't good. Jellyfish's main problem mainly came with the generation shift. It's typing was made worse with buffs to Dark and Ghost, and the one thing it was used to wall against, Rain, was nerfed enough that you didn't need to run Jellyfish or Gastroslug. Galvantula's main problem is it's bulk, which is nonexistent. Most decent setup sweepers have bulk of some kind so they can actually set up, however Galvantula was not graced with the almighty decent defence stats to really do anything at all. All in all, when it comes to this slate, you either Rotom, or you die.
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