Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[heritage]

I've been thinking about this for a long time, and I'm absolutely shocked that nobody has brought this up yet, please don't ignore this OU council;;;

Nominating Honchkrow for D rank

Honchkrow is a pretty underrated sweeper, and, after a Moxie boost, can become absolutely terrifying in the right hands. Honchkrow is somewhat of a Bisharp counter-part, except it's actually one point faster and has Brave Bird instead of Iron Head. Arguably, Brave Bird is a better STAB move just due to how fantastic Flying is as an offensive typing. Honchkrow is also an awesome Pursuit trapper if it doesn't want to run anything else. It also has the possibility to go mixed with Heat Wave. At first, this might seem like a funny option, but it beats Pokemon like Skarmory and Ferrothorn without having to take recoil from Brave Bird. It is a bit slow, however it has Sucker Punch to alleviate that. Honchkrow may not have a lot of longevity since it has Life Orb recoil and a huge Stealth Rock weakness, but neither do its supposed counters.

wall of calcs

0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 317-374 (92.4 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 247-291 (73.9 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 224-265 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 191-226 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Honchkrow Helping Hand Brave Bird vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Sunkern on a critical hit: 4642920-5462260 (42208363.6 - 49656909%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[TLS]

Ok, not making any comment about whether or not either of these mons should move up, but both of these posts are basically showing calcs that say "This pokemon can 2hKO this wall with an SE move." Like, wow, super effective moves do a lot of damage? Who would'a thought! Seriously, to showcase a mons power you have to show what it can do against walls and tanks that like to come in on its stabs.

For Example, this calc:
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 499-588 (129.6 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Wow, A move heatran is 4x weak to OHKO's it? Amazing! But EQ coming off anything with the move kills heatan. When posting calcs, you cant just post obvious shit like that. Calcs need to show power in unfavorable situations. They need to show what a mon can do when it's on the wrong end of the barrel. Posting calcs like these add nothing to the discussion and can even hinder your argument by making it look like you aren't all that knowledgeable competitively. What I'm trying to say here is that posting a wall of calcs is all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day if the calcs hold no authority neither does your argument.

On that note everything else Dragongroudon9 said about scoliopede is pretty nice and I'd agree a raise is worth discussing.

Actually I made the argument that at +2 Volcarona becomes a threathing mon. Which means that while it needs hazard support to set up it becomes a deadly threat. I've even pointed out it's weakness and counters in my original post. I've even talked about how it gets rid of sableye which is most commonly seen on stall and balance team.

 

[Sidebae]

Just curious as to why there's been no rank change or at least explanation on Azelf and Toxicroak's status? Both got positive feedback on moving up one sub-rank.
I support Tangrowth remaining B-. While it's coverage makes it seem like it can take on many pokemon, it's much harder to do in practice. Not only this, but it's setup fodder for many threatening offensive mons. It's role as a pivot is severely hampered by being weak to U-Turn and predicting its switch in is surprisingly easy to take advantage of. It's still a solid defensive mon with great offensive versatility but imo it's not suitable for B.
Agree:
Hippowdown to A (Defensive capabilities have become much more useful as of late.)
Starmie to A (Speed tier can not be appreciated enough for RS late game or for RK.)
Lando I to S (Impeccable coverage that fares well against the arguably best and most popular archtype in balance.)
Sabeleye to A+ (Metagame has adapted to it and some of its more common cores)
Disagree:
Magnezone to B+ (It's usefulness on certain team builds cannot be expressed enough)
Raiku to A- (AV set leaves much to be desired offensively and Specs set requires a lot of prediction to not be a momentum killer.)

 

[astroboy]

While it's coverage makes it seem like it can take on many pokemon, it's much harder to do in practice. Not only this, but it's setup fodder for many threatening offensive mons. It's role as a pivot is severely hampered by being weak to U-Turn

well, yeah. it doesn't fair well against a decent amount of mons. Sableye, Altaria, and Clefable are really common threats that it really can't do anything against. I'm suggesting a B rank for tangrowth. Not anything else. It's either really effective or not at all, but a lot of mons are like that. I just think it's a step above things like alomomola or empoleon. And yeah its not the best mon, it has its flaws that I've previously covered, but it's a cool glue given the right team support.
also,
it can take most u-turns actually. it's able to survive most common u-turn users. Of course it doesn't appreciate it, but it's not really too big of a hinderance with regen recovery. it can take a few weaker ones, like lando-t's, pretty decently, actually!

calcs

252 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 136-162 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
76 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 117-140 (28.9 - 34.6%) -- 5.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 106-126 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

and it wont appreciate it, but it can survive
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Eckleburg]

I've been thinking about this for a long time, and I'm absolutely shocked that nobody has brought this up yet, please don't ignore this OU council;;;

Nominating Honchkrow for D rank

Honchkrow is a pretty underrated sweeper, and, after a Moxie boost, can become absolutely terrifying in the right hands. Honchkrow is somewhat of a Bisharp counter-part, except it's actually one point faster and has Brave Bird instead of Iron Head. Arguably, Brave Bird is a better STAB move just due to how fantastic Flying is as an offensive typing. Honchkrow is also an awesome Pursuit trapper if it doesn't want to run anything else. It also has the possibility to go mixed with Heat Wave. At first, this might seem like a funny option, but it beats Pokemon like Skarmory and Ferrothorn without having to take recoil from Brave Bird. It is a bit slow, however it has Sucker Punch to alleviate that. Honchkrow may not have a lot of longevity, but neither do its supposed counters.

wall of calcs

0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 317-374 (92.4 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 247-291 (73.9 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 224-265 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 191-226 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Honchkrow Helping Hand Brave Bird vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Sunkern on a critical hit: 4642920-5462260 (42208363.6 - 49656909%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm not agreeing with this post.

While Honchkrow seems to be a Pokémon that has everything he's needing, Honchkrow has some noteable flaws. You can't just state the beatiful rainbowparts of a Pokémon and call it a day.

I want to say one thing: Stealth Rock weakness. I mean, c'mon. How can you not mention that flaw in a nomination? The SR weakness, combined with Life Orb and Brave Bird recoil can be a huge, huge deal. Plus, the bulk in general isn't that great. Longevity isn't really a thing on Honch, even with Roost.

The question: So why would you ever use Honchkrow over Bisharp? With decent bulk, SR resistance and Steel typing, Bisharp has a far better defense in general. And now, in the time of fairies 'n stuff, Steel is good in offense, too. And tbh, fairies will always be a huge thread. Not to mention all that obvious stuff like Semi-Hazardcontrol with Defiant, Defiant in general, huge offensive pressure with Knock Off and Sword Dance, two moves Honchkrow is dreaming about, and much more. Heat Wave and Superpower are indeed nice coverage moves, but hell, this will never ever be the reason for a D-Rank.

There's no situation in my mind, where I would prefer Honchkrow over Bisharp, so: Stay Unranked, in my opinion.

 

[Teeny Victory]

I'm not agreeing with this post.

While Honchkrow seems to be a Pokémon that has everything he's needing, Honchkrow has some noteable flaws. You can't just state the beatiful rainbowparts of a Pokémon and call it a day.

I want to say one thing: Stealth Rock weakness. I mean, c'mon. How can you not mention that flaw in a nomination? The SR weakness, combined with Life Orb and Brave Bird recoil can be a huge, huge deal. Plus, the bulk in general isn't that great. Longevity isn't really a thing on Honch, even with Roost.

The question: So why would you ever use Honchkrow over Bisharp? With decent bulk, SR resistance and Steel typing, Bisharp has a far better defense in general. And now, in the time of fairies 'n stuff, Steel is good in offense, too. And tbh, fairies will always be a huge thread. Not to mention all that obvious stuff like Semi-Hazardcontrol with Defiant, Defiant in general, huge offensive pressure with Knock Off and Sword Dance, two moves Honchkrow is dreaming about, and much more. Heat Wave and Superpower are indeed nice coverage moves, but hell, this will never ever be the reason for a D-Rank.

There's no situation in my mind, where I would prefer Honchkrow over Bisharp, so: Stay Unranked, in my opinion.

Except it was nominated for D rank, of course its going to have some serious flaws.
You say SR weakness as well as brave bird wearing it down, but a little birdie called talonflame has that same problem, and its chilling up there in A+ rank, and is one of the most threatening pokemon in the metagame.
Ive seen Honchkrow in action (admittedly it was on a joke all birds team), and it atually put in some work in some high(ish) level games, and is probably not given enough overall credit for its offensive prowess. Of course it has the flaws of SR weakness, easy to wear down, slow, lack of reliable dark move, paper thin defenses. But it makes up for these with its strong offensive prowess and typing as well as being incredibly hard to stop once it gets going.
So I would say put it in D, if it starts to fade away, then sure, unrank it, but for now i think it deserves the spot in D rank.

 

[Eckleburg]

You can't seriously compare Talonflame and Honchcrow. Yes, SR Weakness. Yes, Bravebird. But that's it. Not to mention Prio-Bravebird, but the main reason Talon is ranked so high, while comparing to Honch, is that no one has a similar role like Talonflame. A hard hitting Prio-Revengekiller. In addition to that role, you have the Bulky WoW Set, the Sword Dance Set, whatsoever. Honchkrow however has a Pokémon, that fullfill exactly the same roll, only much better. Much much better. Almighty Bisharp. That's the reason I don't want to see it in D-Rank.

TRC and the others did a fine job editing the lower tier, and I don't want to see it filled with Pokémon again, which have a smaller niche than Magikarp.

 

[Teeny Victory]

You can't seriously compare Talonflame and Honchcrow. Yes, SR Weakness. Yes, Bravebird. But that's it. Not to mention Prio-Bravebird, but the main reason Talon is ranked so high, while comparing to Honch, is that no one has a similar role like Talonflame. A hard hitting Prio-Revengekiller. In addition to that role, you have the Bulky WoW Set, the Sword Dance Set, whatsoever. Honchkrow however has a Pokémon, that fullfill exactly the same roll, only much better. Much much better. That's the reason.

I'm not Comparing honchkrow to talon, I'm just saying that there are always similar arguments used with Mons like honchkrow (the crippling sr weakness) as there is to talonflame. I admit talon is alot better lol, but honchkrow go's ok once it gets going (remember it gets moxie) and is very powerful with an excellent stab combo

 

[Albacore]

Ranking Honchkrow is something I brought up earlier and though I haven't used it in a while, I still think don't it's too much of a stretch to do this. It suffers huge competition from both Bisharp and Talonflame and it's kind of a weaker hybrid of both, but there are a few reasons to run it :

- Why you'd run it over Bisharp : Not a free switchin for Keldeo, Chesnaught and other Fighting types, Ground immunity is really useful for a lot of teams and stop stuff like Scarf Lando-T and Lando-I from completely sweeping, 1 extra base speed lets it outspeed things which specifically creep Bisharp such as Celebi and some Lando-Ts, and usable SpA combined with either Heat Wave or Dark Pulse which lets it break past physical walls, most notably Skarmory.

- Why you'd run it over Talonflame : Hits much harder, has far better coverage with the combination of Brave Bird and Superpower preventing TTar and other Rock types from screwing it over as easily and making it far better at wallbreaking in general, and Moxie's snowball effect can make it tricky to revenge kill.

Its closest comparison is probably Pinsir, which is a far superior version of it but takes up a mega slot. In fact, it's actually a decent partner to Pinsir on birdspam teams since it lures Skarmory and Slowbro and weakens Rotom-W and Rhyperior thanks to Dark Pulse. Basically, if you're using Honchkrow, use either Dark Pulse or Heat Wave because that's half the reason to use it in the first place.

Admittedly it dies extremely fast and has a really unfortunate combination of bad speed and bad bulk, and I haven't seen it used in tours at all, but the same can be said of stuff like Chandelure and Cofagrigus (in fact Chandelure is very similar to Honchkrow in terms of viability in the sense that it's also a hybrid of 2 far, far better Pokemon, Gengar and Heatran, while not being good enough to be chosen over either is the vast majority of cases). I don't know if in practice it can viably fit on any team so I'm not really sure if it deserves a rank but it definitely needs to be discussed.

 

[Tressed]

You can't seriously compare Talonflame and Honchcrow. Yes, SR Weakness. Yes, Bravebird. But that's it. Not to mention Prio-Bravebird, but the main reason Talon is ranked so high, while comparing to Honch, is that no one has a similar role like Talonflame. A hard hitting Prio-Revengekiller. In addition to that role, you have the Bulky WoW Set, the Sword Dance Set, whatsoever. Honchkrow however has a Pokémon, that fullfill exactly the same roll, only much better. Much much better. Almighty Bisharp. That's the reason I don't want to see it in D-Rank.

TRC and the others did a fine job editing the lower tier, and I don't want to see it filled with Pokémon again, which have a smaller niche than Magikarp.

If you're comparing Honchkrow to Bisharp or Talonflame, you have no idea what Honchkrow actually does. Bisharp is primarily a revenge killer, a Pursuit trapper, and it discourages Defog. It occasionally sweeps with Swords Dance. Talon is a lategame sweeper (or stallbreaker, if you want to talk about defensive sets). Honchkrow is a wallbreaker. Longevity doesn't mean much; Krow gets in, fucks things up because it has barely any relevant switch ins, and after that it doesn't really matter if it survives or not, it's already managed to do it's job. Just because the two get Sucker Punch doesn't mean they're comparable. Same goes for Talonflame. Talon has nowhere near the amount of brute, wallbreaking power that Honchkrow does, and Krow is not going to clean up teams like Talonflame does.

If you want to judge Honchkrow correctly, you compare it to Staraptor, or as Albacore mentioned, Mega Pinsir.

 

[Eckleburg]

So, two dark types with both 125 Base Attack, both viable LO-Sets, both often seen with Sucker Punch and Pursuit, ergo two moves, that they have in common and two moves they need to fullfill their roll - and one is a wallbreaker, and the other is not? Even funnier: The one with SD is the one, which isn't referred as a wallbreaker? Sure, Bisharp is some kind of revengekiller and glue for many teams, but this doesn't mean he can't fullfill other roles and can't be a wallbreaker, too. Like, at all. Especially if you're comparing the wallbreaker capability with Honch. Bisharp can do so much in one set, that's the reason why it's A+ after all.

This Honch vs. Bisharp discussion was mentioned so often before, and still, Honch isn't ranked. And the reason -is- and will be ever Bisharp, not some kind of Birdspam, which can be done better by so much Pokémon in the tier.

This is Jolteon vs. Raikou all over again.

Edit: The Talonflame Comparison din't came from me.

 

[AM]

Ranking Honchkrow is something I brought up earlier and though I haven't used it in a while, I still think don't it's too much of a stretch to do this. It suffers huge competition from both Bisharp and Talonflame and it's kind of a weaker hybrid of both, but there are a few reasons to run it

I'll just comment on Albas points and people can read along since this is the only good feedback I've seen on what is basically a suicide Pokemon that got really hyped at the beginning of ORAS and I strongly believe is still overhyped based on what I've seen in practice. Suffering huge competition to the point of obscurity is a pretty important reason why something shouldn't be ranked or should be ranked so low.

- Why you'd run it over Bisharp : Not a free switchin for Keldeo, Chesnaught and other Fighting types, Ground immunity is really useful for a lot of teams and stop stuff like Scarf Lando-T and Lando-I from completely sweeping, 1 extra base speed lets it outspeed things which specifically creep Bisharp such as Celebi and some Lando-Ts, and usable SpA combined with either Heat Wave or Dark Pulse which lets it break past physical walls, most notably Skarmory.

I mean Keldeo is the emergency Bisharp switch in on offense, that doesn't mean Keldeo wants to be willy nilly taking Knock Offs from Bisharp especially in the case when its capabilities necessitate that it maintains its item. So Honchkrow is once again playing these Sucker Punch mind-games that it may or may not win. If you want to be realistic Bisharp can run lure sets to hit Keldeo and Chesnaught with Aerial Ace so I don't see how this is a strong selling point for using Honchkrow over Bisharp. Honckhrow is taking neutral from Fighting types, frail, and is not fast at all, so unless it's something like Conkeldurr you're playing a very shaky game against the majority of these fighting types. Ground immunity is useful for the sake of having some leniency against your general ground type users in regards to being a emergency pivot to be immune to said ground move. This doesn't change the fact that stuff such as Lando-T and Garchomp all have ways to hit the ground type immune Pokemon in some way or form, so in Honchkrows case Stone Edge from Lando-T and any relevant Dragon move from Garchomp. The creep factor is something that changes as the metagame goes along and 2-3 more evs in speed to outpace Honchkrow isn't exactly a burden that is hard to correct so another thing that isn't really a selling point other than to outrun stuff you already run.

- Why you'd run it over Talonflame : Hits much harder, has far better coverage with the combination of Brave Bird and Superpower preventing TTar and other Rock types from screwing it over as easily and making it far better at wallbreaking in general, and Moxie's snowball effect can make it tricky to revenge kill.

This only applies to support Ttars, unless you predict (this goes both ways of course) you're dealing with a ScarfTar, the more common variant now a days, threatening you with Stone Edge and that's the mind game that is not in your favor. You'd run Talonflame because it has more superiority in its overall arsenal to effect the tier. A burn immunity, amongst 5 different legitimate sets that you can run, and even a couple of lure sets to turn some of these checks and counters into a liability. Moxies snowball effect is by virtue its only real selling point that isn't actually large when you take into account it kills itself off very quickly based on Life Orb recoil + Brave Bird damage. You could say that by removing checks and counters it'll amplify its Moxie abilities but a Pokemons capabilities will always be improved when ones checks and counters are out of the way to begin with.

Its closest comparison is probably Pinsir, which is a far superior version of it but takes up a mega slot. In fact, it's actually a decent partner to Pinsir on birdspam teams since it lures Skarmory and Slowbro and weakens Rotom-W and Rhyperior thanks to Dark Pulse. Basically, if you're using Honchkrow, use either Dark Pulse or Heat Wave because that's half the reason to use it in the first place.

That has to do more with a playstyle, birdspam, than an actual comparison and basically by this definition we're going to assume that the cores you're wearing down don't have back-up answers to mitigate the effectiveness of this core. Pinsir might take up the mega slot but it's not being over dependent on the power of Life Orb to be effective and unlike Honchkrow isn't being worn down by said item. The comparison is a stretch when Pinsir already has easier ways of bypassing these checks and counters either through a utility move in something like Swords Dance or a partner such as Magnezone who not only helps with certain issues Pinsir has, namely Skarmory, but also has other traits to offer from an offensive and most importantly defensive standpoint.

Admittedly it dies extremely fast and has a really unfortunate combination of bad speed and bad bulk, and I haven't seen it used in tours at all, but the same can be said of stuff like Chandelure and Cofagrigus (in fact Chandelure is very similar to Honchkrow in terms of viability in the sense that it's also a hybrid of 2 far, far better Pokemon, Gengar and Heatran, while not being good enough to be chosen over either is the vast majority of cases). I don't know if in practice it can viably fit on any team so I'm not really sure if it deserves a rank but it definitely needs to be discussed.

That's my problem, it dies extremely fast. Chandelure and Honchkrow should not be compared in terms of viability because Chandelure has a bit more flexibility due to its typing and sets that it can run such as Life Orb attacker, Scarf, and stall-breaker Chandelure and is one of the more consistent checks to Charizard-Y on any given day, a very dangerous threat against Balanced builds. Chandelure may have some competition to Gengar and Heatran but the combination of traits that Chandelure has allows itself to have more tools at its disposable based on the build that you're using it for. You're pretty much comparing apples and oranges at this point. Cofagrigus benefits itself from being a pseudo check to physical contact attackers such as M-Lopunny and M-Metagross, so not easily comparable to begin with.

By all means feel free to prove me wrong but the traits that you would use Honchkrow for seem very limited and sort of is relying on the idea that these are all standard aspects that always apply in practice when the reality is that Honchkrow finds itself as a niche tool or is used for shits and giggles with players who have better tools at disposable but because of their ability can make a bad option seem great.

 

[Kurona]

Magnezone A- --> B+: For the most part I really want to agree with this; basically because the meta is very much prepared for it now. This is quite the weird argument admittedly as it calls into question if Magnezone should really go down because it's just that damn good it can force 'mon to run Shed Shell. Now arguably this could create an odd cycle wherein Magnezone goes down in usage and viability because people are prepared for it, people stop being prepared for it because it's not common and start running Leftovers and shit, Magnezone goes up in usage and viability because people aren't prepared for it, etc. etc. However, the viability rankings should reflect the current metagame and as you've got it's common targets either running Shed Shell to escape it or Superpower to beat it (Scizor); I'd say it requires more support - i.e. knock off - to do it's job these days. Agree.

Tyrantrum Unranked --> C+: I really think the replays speak for themselves on this one. Tyrantrum's wallbreaking power is fucking insane, and the fact it doesn't wear itself down while doing so while still being frail, slow and susceptible to burns to me puts it at least on the level of Mega Medicham. Agree.

Mega Sableye S --> A+: There is one thing that was truly holding me back from this; and that's because Mega Sableye essentially revived Stall after it declined in late XY. It's true that this little guy basically breathed new life into the playstyle; performing so many roles and even making some people consider a suspect. It was the face of stall for so, so long... but at the end of the day I simply don't find it on that level anymore. Painful as this is to say due to it being my favourite Pokémon it was really, really overhyped and it's very easy to take care of for any playstyle. Fairies, fire-types and special attackers in general don't have much of a problem with it and honestly... I don't feel it's as splashable as an S-rank 'mon should be. Keldeo is very easy to slap on an offensive or balanced team as it fills a lot of holes, while Mega Metagross is undoubtebly the best Mega for offence and you'd find yourself having a hard time justifying another Mega. But Mega Sableye just doesn't fit this to me. It's not something that can easily be put onto every Stall team since ORAS did bring a lot of new options; and honestly, as a Stall Mega I find it on par with Altarianite and Slowbronite. Absolutely agree.

Honchkrow Unranked --> D: I'm very close to agreeing with this as the reasoning given does make a lot of sense; but I think I speak for most here when I say that replays of it in action should be an absolute necessity before ranking something not on the list already. I honestly can't see it going above C- myself but from where I'm standing in concept it seems a decent D 'mon. My bud ThePack has used it to some success in Trick Room even; he can tell you all about that.

 

[Froggyboy]

to B+: This is an interesting one for me. On one hand, a lot of steel types vulnerable now carry Shed Shell, limiting Magnezone's trapping capabilities. On the other hand, a lot of Magnezone's partners carry Knock Off, removing said Shed Shell, making the opponent less room to mess up, or their Skarmory goes down. But, seeing as how it is a bit reliant on its partners to help remove said steel types, and how the meta is prepared for it now, I can see it going to B+.

to C+: Tyrantrum now gets Rock Head+Head Smash, which is a beautiful combination, and what makes it better than Aggron, the Head Smash spammer before it, is that Tyrantrum has Dragon Dance, strong secondary STAB, and isn't that weak to so many common types. Though even with a DD up, it can still get revenged thanks to its low base 71 speed stat and poor special bulk. I can't see it higher than B- tbh, but C or C+ is a respectable place for it.

->

to A+: This is the big one out of all the suggestions of rankings. But as I don't have much experience on this Pokemon, I am going to just agree with Kurona here and say A+ would be fitting atm.

to D: I don't know why people are so opposed to this being D rank. That is the place for Pokemon with only a few good qualities. Look at Exploud, its only place in OU is to spam Boomburst and sometimes Focus Blast/Fire Blast, but other than that, its trash. Ludicolo's only place in OU is on Rain Teams, and even then there are better rain sweepers that can deal with bulky water types. Putting Honchkrow in D isn't really complimenting it, but it does have a niche over Bisharp, and that is it can check and hit other things Bisharp sometimes couldn't be able to hit, along with Moxie to help sweep late game. Though of course Honchkrow has obvious flaws, being shitty bulk, low speed, too reliant on Sucker Punch, etc.
But I feel its niches are just fine to move up to D, but nowhere more.

 

[pika pal]

to C+: Tyrantrum now gets Rock Head+Head Smash, which is a beautiful combination, and what makes it better than Aggron, the Head Smash spammer before it, is that Tyrantrum has Dragon Dance, strong secondary STAB, and isn't that weak to so many common types. Though even with a DD up, it can still get revenged thanks to its low base 71 speed stat and poor special bulk. I can't see it higher than B- tbh, but C or C+ is a respectable place for it.

While DD might be an option, I personally think it a sub-par set for Tyrantrum. Considering his speed, he should either take advantage of his somewhat better speed for a Rock Polish set, or just go full on Wallbreaker w/ a Choice Band. Most situations where you'll need Tyrantrum to hit something, he's faster than the opponent naturally or because they don't tend to invest.

Reposting this support for CB example because it never gets old.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Clone]

have some free time so Ill give my thoughts on these.

Lando-I: from A+ to S: fully support this. lando is stupidly good rn (idk if op, but thats a diff argument entirely), as it is capable of destroying balance, stall, or offense depending on its set. RP is arguably its best set right now, and for good reason. its a great wincon against offense, while still having the power to break balance. pair it up with TTar for pursuit support, and this thing will go to town. its coverage is outstanding, and you never know what its gonna run aside from e power, because its multitude of coverage options are all perfectly viable. hp ice nails gliscor, sludge wave hits everything that doesnt resist it hard, most notably grass types, knock off kills the latis and cripples chansey, psychic beats fighting types, and focus blast takes on things such as skarm and ferro. yeah its speed is only /okay/, but everything else more than makes up for it. S rank pls


Raikou: from B+ to A-: Ive been advocating this for a while. Raikou has a great speed tier and has an outstanding niche of being able to check thundy, gengar, and bulky water types with an AV equipped. It also has specs, which is a really good wallbreaker as it has the power and enough of a movepool to make use of it. its speed tier is great, and it allows raikou to act as a decent bird check, although talonflame wins if its jolly SD. overall raikou is a great mon and an A- ranking fits it perfectly.

Starmie: from A- to A: Agree. its arguably the best offensive spinner in the tier, and it is capable of being both offensive or defensive, which allows it to fit on many teams. its base 115 speed is amazing, as it outpaces a good majority of the meta, which, coupled with its good offensive presence and coverage (or event e threat of it), often gives it free analytic boosted attacks against the switch in, or a free spin. It's becoming more and more influential, which coupled with its splashability on many types of teams, puts it on par with other a rank mons.

Magnezone: from A- to B+: agree. Simply put, it's niche is no longer as important as it was a few months ago. It's still a good mon, but it's effectiveness has diminished a bit and a drop should reflect that. It's scarf set no longer reliably checks birds since Talon runs jolly SD now, and even then mag is usually forced to be choice locked, which sucks against any team with a ground type, which forces it to be extremely prediction reliant. There are other, more effective electric types in the tier, and those should be considered before Magnezone unless it's trapping capabilities are needed.

Hippowdon: from A- to A: agree. This thing is fat enough to wall a significant portion of The tier, has reliable recovery, and is rarely deadweight. It's a great check to a plethora of offensive mons and still does well against balance teams due to its sheer bulk. It also has whirlwind to prevent it from being setup bait, so those things that aren't scared of it can't boost up and sweep. Hippo has become a lot more common as of late due to its rise in viability, which should be reflected in the rankings.

Anything I left out I have no strong opinion on.

 

[bb skarm]

uh this is going to sound really sketchy but could we put

in c rank? obviously everyone's going to use that horrible "it's slow and is weak to fairy" argument but i have been using pangoro quite a bit lately and it is actually really good. against offense it does struggle quite a bit because of its common weaknesses and exploitable speed, but the main reason i'm nomming this is because it shines against bulky defensive teams. any stall team is basically pangoro's bitch, because it's fast enough to be any stall mon and has such a wide movepool that covers pretty much every threat on these teams and also has an attack stat high enough to ohko most opponents. the moveset of superpower / knock off / gunk shot / ice punch has perfect coverage, and ohkoes a ridiculous amount of stall pokemon.

for calcs against most stall pokemon:

252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 335-398 (110.1 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 382-452 (96.9 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 367-432 (104.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 296-351 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 322-385 (90.9 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 231-273 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-183 (45.8 - 54.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
so as you can see, literally every stall mon or defensive mon is at worst 2hkoed by pangoro (even hippowdon is 2hkoed by ice punch and superpower), and this is excluding choice band variants. i dont have much to say, put pangoro in c rank
sorry for no caps but i had to type this very quickly

 

[pika pal]

uh this is going to sound really sketchy but could we put

in c rank? obviously everyone's going to use that horrible "it's slow and is weak to fairy" argument but i have been using pangoro quite a bit lately and it is actually really good. against offense it does struggle quite a bit because of its common weaknesses and exploitable speed, but the main reason i'm nomming this is because it shines against bulky defensive teams. any stall team is basically pangoro's bitch, because it's fast enough to be any stall mon and has such a wide movepool that covers pretty much every threat on these teams and also has an attack stat high enough to ohko most opponents. the moveset of superpower / knock off / gunk shot / ice punch has perfect coverage, and ohkoes a ridiculous amount of stall pokemon.

for calcs against most stall pokemon:

252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 335-398 (110.1 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 382-452 (96.9 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 367-432 (104.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 296-351 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 322-385 (90.9 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 231-273 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-183 (45.8 - 54.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
so as you can see, literally every stall mon or defensive mon is at worst 2hkoed by pangoro (even hippowdon is 2hkoed by ice punch and superpower), and this is excluding choice band variants. i dont have much to say, put pangoro in c rank
sorry for no caps but i had to type this very quickly

The power overall is a pretty decent show, though two in particular I think need to be addressed in slightly better context. Slowbro is mostly seen on Stall with its Mega.
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 198-237 (50.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still good, but it would take two hits. As for Skarmory, 2HKOs are a bit harder to evaluate
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 103-122 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

So he needs some higher damage rolls and at least a round of SR to get the 2HKO, at which point the drops necessitate a switch.

 

[Celticpride]

The power overall is a pretty decent show, though two in particular I think need to be addressed in slightly better context. Slowbro is mostly seen on Stall with its Mega.
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 198-237 (50.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still good, but it would take two hits. As for Skarmory, 2HKOs are a bit harder to evaluate
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 103-122 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

So he needs some higher damage rolls and at least a round of SR to get the 2HKO, at which point the drops necessitate a switch.

With regards to Mega Slowbro, it should never run max defense. The return on investment drops quickly. You are better off investing some (think 80 Defense EVs and a Bold Nature for Diggersby as an example) and putting the extra in Special Attack or Special Defense. With lesser investment you get:

252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 151-182 (38.3 - 46.1%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not great, but better, especially because Mega Slowbro can't use Leftovers to compensate for damage from hazards and other passive damage. I also don't really agree with the statement that Slowbro is mostly seen as a Mega, or that Stall is most common for it. (Mega) Slowbro is a big player on Balanced defensive cores nowadays, and it still has a lot of use outside of its Mega form. The Mega is only seen on roughly 35% of all Slowbros.

 

[Eckleburg]

Hello,

I'd like to nominate Azelf for B-Rank.

Azelf has one job: Setting up rocks for HO-Teams and increase the offensive pressure. And in fact, it's doing this thing quite good and >95% of the time.

The main lead set in Explosion, Fire Blast, Stealth Rock, Skill Swap/Taunt, combined with its good speed tier and Focus Sash, let it perform its role insanely well. With Skill Swap, Magic Bouncers like M-Sableye and M-Diancie can't do shit against Azelf setting up rocks. Despite that, swapping abilities can be effective in other situations, too. It sounds like a gimmick, but in many situations it's very decent. And if it's too much of a gimmick for you, you can run Taunt, which is equally useful. With its nice speed, you can block other leads setting up rocks very well. And with its nice speed, it's hard to Taunt Azelf, too.

But the most useful thing on Azelf is its strong and fast Explosion. Setting up rocks is one thing, but getting in a favorable Match-Up (after the explosion), make a huge load of damage with Explosion, and block the enemy to spin/defog your Hazards away, is so damn nice. Fire Blast mainly for steel types, and with 60 EVs SpA-Investment a OHKO against Bisharp.

However, Azelf has some noteable flaws, too. Azelf is doing the role of a lead very well, but things like Anti-Lead Fake Out M-Lopunny, Fake Out Weavile, or Fake Out (combined with other Priority-Moves or high speed) in general, can destroy its role completely. A thing that can be annoying too is Scarf Lead TTar. With Sandstorm and Crunch, Azelf can set up Stealth Rocks, but after that, it's dead and can't go with a boom. Same thing for Priority-Leads like Mamoswine or multiple time hitting/Spore Anti-Lead Breloom. Prankster Taunt can be a problem, too. With Taunt from Pokémon like Thundurus-I, it can be very difficult to set up rocks. In the end, setting up rocks is the only reason to use Azelf, and if it can't do that, it's a wasted slot.

But despite all that, you can trust Azelf doing its thing most of the time.

TL;DR: Azelf has one job, and it is very good, if not the best (Faces competition from Pokémon like Garchomp and Mamoswine, which can set up rocks and have a huge offensive presence, too), in this role: Setting up rocks for your HO-Team and increase the offensive pressure. Azelf for B-Rank.

 

[pika pal]

With regards to Mega Slowbro, it should never run max defense. The return on investment drops quickly. You are better off investing some (think 80 Defense EVs and a Bold Nature for Diggersby as an example) and putting the extra in Special Attack or Special Defense. With lesser investment you get:

252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 151-182 (38.3 - 46.1%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not great, but better, especially because Mega Slowbro can't use Leftovers to compensate for damage from hazards and other passive damage. I also don't really agree with the statement that Slowbro is mostly seen as a Mega, or that Stall is most common for it. (Mega) Slowbro is a big player on Balanced defensive cores nowadays, and it still has a lot of use outside of its Mega form. The Mega is only seen on roughly 35% of all Slowbros.

I guess my wording was poor.

I meant to say that when Slowbro is on stall it was most commonly as a Mega, not that Mega Slowbro is most commonly on Stall. I was under the impression that when Slowbro was seen on Stall, it was more often Mega than regular since it could take physical hits better, and be a win condition with Calm Mind. Not to mention reducing Knock Off damage even if you play it in base form for a while with Regenerator. Admittedly I'm not the most up to date on the Meta trends so it wouldn't surprise me were I misinformed.

 

[BlueLobster]

The power overall is a pretty decent show, though two in particular I think need to be addressed in slightly better context. Slowbro is mostly seen on Stall with its Mega.
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 198-237 (50.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still good, but it would take two hits. As for Skarmory, 2HKOs are a bit harder to evaluate
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 103-122 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

So he needs some higher damage rolls and at least a round of SR to get the 2HKO, at which point the drops necessitate a switch.

I'd like to add in here while on the suspect ladder I have seen a very high amount of non mega Slowbro while almost at the top 500 Elo-Wise, so it isn't just low ladder syndrome like the Eeveelution use. You are underrating how fab regen cores are in the right hands.

 

[Kyuzeth]

I'm throwing in my support for all recent moves for reasons stated.

Landorus-I (A+) -> S | Brutal special wallbreaker and even sweeper that isn't often prepared for these days and still rips almost everything a new asshole with its insane power output. Definitely deserving of S.

Hippowdon (A-) -> A | Thanks to its absolutely immense physical bulk, good typing and packing a decent punch for a defensive Pokémon, making sure it's seldom deadweight, and fantastic physical bulk with reliable recovery, good ol' Hippo deserves to go to A.

Starmie (A-) -> A | Excadrill is a stronger Spinner, but Starmie is much faster and still has a nice power output with amazing coverage to boot. 115 Speed is solid gold in ORAS, so A is well deserved.

Raikou (B+) -> A- | AV checks a ton of shit, Specs can hit hard as balls and CM sets are pretty fucking scary late-game. However, due to all of its sets having some notable flaws, I'd say Raikou should maximally go to A- and no higher. Great utility and/or power is what lets it get there.

That's not the main point of the post, however.

I have no experience in digital artwork, but I feel like we need a new logo for this thread. Since both Landorus Formes have dominated the Gen 6 metagame at some point, I feel like they should already be part of the logo. Perhaps Lando-I riding on Lando-T's back, a trail of erupting earth in their wake. Just making a suggestion here, is all. Might be cool to give a new meta's thread a new piece of art to represent it.

 

[BlueLobster]

Opinions on stuff listed in the OP (will edit others in later):

Lando-I: from A+ to S - (Strongly) Disagree. It's very good in the current meta, and certainly up near the top, but it's not S rank IMO, it doesn't need as much preparation as other S rank mons by quite a long way. Undecided, I didn't think it was S worthy before but am almost convinced now.
M-Sableye: from S to A+ - (Strongly) Disagree. M.Eye is one of, if not the, best threats in the meta, and the only way I would even have any reason I'd disagree is is was almost no where in the suspect meta thank God it destoyed my team unless I predicted perfectly, but we are assuming MMeta isn't banned for these ranks (right?), so it simply doesn't need to drop.
Raikou: from B+ to A- (Strongly) Agree. It's amazing in the current meta, now there are more megas than in XY it is a great way to get a pseudo-MMan in your team while running another mega. It can also go scarfed, allowing it to surprise T-Flames trying to creep it or scarfed Lando-Ts. It was amazing on my reqs team, and was the sole reason Slowbro/M.Slowbro didn't beat me in a few battles.
Doublade: Doublades placement - Opinionless without using it, but the few I've seen did do a good job of walling me when my knock off spammers were dead.
Tyrantrum: from unranked to C+ - Agree. It's a great CB wallbreaker, an even better setup sweeper (RP/DD), and checks T-Flames so a T-Flame weak mon can sweep.
Mienshao: Unranked to D - Opinionless, as I've never seen it outside of low ladder, which kinda speaks for itself.
Starmie: from A- to A - Agree. Probably the best offensive spinner in the tier outside of sand rush Exca, has some great coverage moves, the only thing holding it back is 4MSS.
Magnezone: from A- to B+ - Agree, but aren't really sure TBH. It's an amazing partner to some of the best 'mons in the tier, so I'd like to see it in A-, but being outsped when scarfed by Talon and outsped by the stuff it's supposed to beat like Bisharp if not scarfed I'm not sure it should be A-.
Hippowdon: from A- to A - Agree. It can set up sand for Exca, and is an amazing wall. A- is an extreme understatement.
Forretress from Unranked to D - Agree. It has more than enough reasons to be in D as it has SR, Spikes, T-Spikes, can do a slow VolTurn with volt switch, or even better Custap Explosion.

TL:DR: Move up Raikou, Starmie, Hippowdon and Foretress, probably Mag too, do what you wish with Doublade and Mienshao, and don't you dare move Lando-I or M.Eye.

@Below: edited.

 

[Karxrida]

Opinions on stuff listed in the OP (will edit others in later):

Lando-I: from A+ to S - (Strongly) Disagree. It's very good in the current meta, and certainly up near the top, but it's not S rank IMO, it doesn't need as much preparation as other S rank mons by quite a long way.
M-Sableye: from S to A+ - (Strongly) Disagree. If this drops and meta is banned, S rank is empty. M.Eye is one of, if not the, best threats in the meta, and the only way I would even have any reason I'd disagree is is was almost no where in the suspect meta thank God it destoyed my team unless I predicted perfectly, but we are assuming MMeta isn't banned for these ranks (right?), so it simply doesn't need to drop.
Raikou: from B+ to A- (Strongly) Agree. It's amazing in the current meta, now there are more megas than in XY it is a great way to get a pseudo-MMan in your team while running another mega. It can also go scarfed, allowing it to surprise T-Flames trying to creep it or scarfed Lando-Ts. It was amazing on my reqs team, and was the sole reason Slowbro/M.Slowbro didn't beat me in a few battles.
Doublade: Doublades placement - Opinionless without using it, but the few I've seen did do a good job of walling me when my knock off spammers were dead.
Tyrantrum: from unranked to C+ - Agree. It's a great CB wallbreaker, an even better setup sweeper (RP/DD), and checks T-Flames so a T-Flame weak mon can sweep.
Mienshao: Unranked to D - Opinionless, as I've never seen it outside of low ladder, which kinda speaks for itself.
Starmie: from A- to A - Agree. Probably the best offensive spinner in the tier outside of sand rush Exca, has some great coverage moves, the only thing holding it back is 4MSS.
Magnezone: from A- to B+ - Agree, but aren't really sure TBH. It's an amazing partner to some of the best 'mons in the tier, so I'd like to see it in A-, but being outsped when scarfed by Talon and outsped by the stuff it's supposed to beat like Bisharp if not scarfed I'm not sure it should be A-.
Hippowdon: from A- to A - Agree. It can set up sand for Exca, and is an amazing wall. A- is an extreme understatement.
Forretress from Unranked to D - Agree. It has more than enough reasons to be in D as it has SR, Spikes, T-Spikes, can do a slow VolTurn with volt switch, or even better Custap Explosion.

TL:DR: Move up Raikou, Starmie, Hippowdon and Foretress, probably Mag too, do what you wish with Doublade and Mienshao, and don't you dare move Lando-I or M.Eye.

S rank would not be empty if Metagross leaves and Sableye drops, as Keldeo is still there.