Sylveon shouldn't be blacklisted because it's actually viable; Pokemon on the blacklist are just bad and always stir up a discussion when someone mentions them. However, it could be placed into the definitive ranking section so no more discussion on it is needed.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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While I agree with many of the points here - particularly that the utility set is good right now - I really don't think that it drives stall all by itself. While Mega Sableye is a staple on many stall teams, Mega Scizor has risen in popularity due to beating many of the pokemon people pack for Mega Sableye such as Mega Gardevoir or Mega Diancie. Not only that but Mega Venusaur also beats most fairies and is a very nice fat mon with few weaknesses, and Mega Altaria makes a nice stall mon as well. Sableye isn't a completely reliable spin blocker, as a LO Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump has a pretty reasonable shot to 2HKO if you hit both, even against max SpDef variants. Also SpDef variants don't really wanna switch into Excadrill's EQ, and defensive variants cannot reliably switch in to LO Sand Rush Exca at all. Not to mention those Mold Breaker toxic Excadrills, which can be blocked but at a cost.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 165-196 (54.2 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Analytic activates on the switch)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 129-152 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
With sand up that would be guaranteed
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 129-152 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
With sand up that would be guaranteed
Magic Bounce is great utility and I think Mega Sableye is still the best mega on stall (though I don't use stall I only play against it, so who knows how relevant my opinion is), but stall doesn't need it to be successful, so I can't agree that it drives the playstyle by itself.
I agree with most of your points, but I guess I screwed up a little, I kinda meant full stall, as in , 6 reall bulky mon slapped on a team together. I have yet to see a full stall team not running Sableye, so I'm not sure whether or not other mons are run on full stall teams, as I have seen many semi stall teams running vvenusaur, Altaria and slowbro. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I think Serperior should move up to B+ or A-. It's pretty strong against every playstyle and has ways to annoy almost all of its would-be switch ins. For example: Talonflame hates getting paralyzed by Glare, Heatran loses to HP Ground and hates Knock Off, and even a bulky grass resist like Amoonguss takes around 70% damage minimum from switching into Leaf Storm + HP Fire from the Life Orb set. It can't run all of the moves it wants to, but that element of unpredictability makes it hard to safely switch into, not to mention it's most likely getting to +2 every time it gets a free turn, which combined with its great speed tier makes it even harder to revenge kill. It's also obviously an amazing check to bulky waters which are everywhere, and its speed tier makes it pretty threatening vs offense and balance since it can out-speed key mons like Keldeo and the Latis. I guess the main things holding it back are how its coverage moves are pretty weak unboosted, and that its bulk and lack of recovery makes it hard to find opportunities to switch in (unless you run Synthesis, which is actually pretty cool on a stallbreaker set). It does require a fair amount of team support too, but from my experiences it's not exactly hard to fit on teams either, being one of the best offensive Grass types in the tier. Despite the drawbacks, it has the potential to be extremely threatening to almost every team archetype in OU, and deserves a raise in my opinion.
Is there any reason as to why Ampharos dropped ? I made a post a week ago or so explaining why's it's good (not Very Good or Excellent, but at the very least on the level of C+ mons.) and didn't see a lot of reaction against it, mainly because people underuse it.
Here's the post in question :
Also definitely for Landorus in S, with Gren, his biggest check, gone, he can be used again as a powerful wallbreaker, as a very good finisher, (Fly/Ground is by no mean a bad type so it's relatively easy to setup on stuff like Lando-T.) it has a lot of synergy with stuff. (for example, the Calm Mind set, who suffer from its weakness to faster stuff such as Keldeo, Latis, Ice Punch Megagross and more, can easily see its weakness neutered with, say, Prankster Thunderus, who can at the same time soften the walls facing Landorus.) It's versatile, has a good typing, goes well offensively and defensively speaking with a good chunk of mons, it's insanely powerful and putting Landorus I in your team very rarely makes it worst.
#LandForS
Here's the post in question :
Tainic said:
Also definitely for Landorus in S, with Gren, his biggest check, gone, he can be used again as a powerful wallbreaker, as a very good finisher, (Fly/Ground is by no mean a bad type so it's relatively easy to setup on stuff like Lando-T.) it has a lot of synergy with stuff. (for example, the Calm Mind set, who suffer from its weakness to faster stuff such as Keldeo, Latis, Ice Punch Megagross and more, can easily see its weakness neutered with, say, Prankster Thunderus, who can at the same time soften the walls facing Landorus.) It's versatile, has a good typing, goes well offensively and defensively speaking with a good chunk of mons, it's insanely powerful and putting Landorus I in your team very rarely makes it worst.
#LandForS
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I think that Landorus-I definitely needs to go up to S rank. It is a massive threat to fat teams, bulky offense and stall, because of its excellent power courtesy of Sheer Force + Life Orb, decent offensive movepool that consists of several strong coverage options (Psychic, Focus Blast and Sludge Wave) and access to Calm Mind for stallbreaking. It also has some other neat options such as Knock Off, U-Turn for momentum and Hidden Power Ice to smack Gliscor and both opposing Landorus forms. Its matchup against offense isn't as strong because of its meh speed tier, but access to Rock Polish helps out with this issue. Basically, if you don't prepare for it when teambuilding, it'll completely wreck your team, and if you do it is still a big threat which is a testament to its great performance at what it does.
Considering I'm one of the people that wants to see the damn thing suspected, I agree wholeheartedly with Lando-I for S. It's incredibly versatile with a ton of moves that work for it, Sheer Force + Life Orb gives it fucking stupid power, and it can easily fuck over opponents by running Rock Polish and sweeping. If you play your cards right it has no true switch-ins and I honestly feel it obliterates every playstyle. The one thing, the one possible thing that would hold it back from S imo is opportunity cost in that you can't use Lando-T, but there's not many a time you'd want to use both regardless.
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Many people seem to agree that Hippowdon should move up to A rank, and I would too if it wasn't for one Pokemon.
Landorus-I.
I've been using a sand balance team throughout the suspect test and the problem with sending out Hippowdon is that it's nearly always a free switch for Landorus-I. This is very troublesome because Landorus-I getting up a free rock polish makes your Sand Rush Excadrill almost useless.
Now I know that Hippowdon can learn ice fang and catching the Landorus-I on the switch will be great as it does a cool 70-84% but since the attack is so weak, it then gives you issues checking Charizard Y, Talonflame and M-Pinsir.
This is the only thing that's making me hesitatant on Hippowdon moving up because other than Landorus-I, it is a great blanket check to the majority of physical attackers as well as a soft-check to Life Orb special attackers (sand wears them down).
Just a thought.
Landorus-I.
I've been using a sand balance team throughout the suspect test and the problem with sending out Hippowdon is that it's nearly always a free switch for Landorus-I. This is very troublesome because Landorus-I getting up a free rock polish makes your Sand Rush Excadrill almost useless.
Now I know that Hippowdon can learn ice fang and catching the Landorus-I on the switch will be great as it does a cool 70-84% but since the attack is so weak, it then gives you issues checking Charizard Y, Talonflame and M-Pinsir.
This is the only thing that's making me hesitatant on Hippowdon moving up because other than Landorus-I, it is a great blanket check to the majority of physical attackers as well as a soft-check to Life Orb special attackers (sand wears them down).
Just a thought.
Alright, here are my thoughts:
Landorus-I
S rank for sure. This thing practically defines the meta, and even had a massive influence in XY as it was a significant factor in the creation of SpDef Gliscor. As per the obvious, it hits like a truck with its STAB Earth Power and has a way to smack just about all of its usual checks and counters with its sizeable movepool; psychic for general coverage on stuff like conk, venu, amoonguss, sludge wave hits fairies and Celebi, knock offis the best move ever hits Lati@s, and HP Ice has seen a surge in usage as of late to target the aforementioned SpDef Gliscor as well as the other stuff that's 4x weak to it. It's ability to threaten every single playstyle whether it be using its Rock Polish set that can run through offense or its Calm Mind set it to obliterate stall (stall is forced to run cress or even bronzong lol) and balanced builds alike is incredible in this meta.
Kurona Saying that using Lando-I over Lando-T is an opportunity cost is a poor argument against it moving to S rank because the pokemon do completely different things.
Mega Sableye
Pretty reasonable drop. The meta has certainly adapted to it quite well, as most hazard setters have a way to get past it: think lum sd chomp, earth plate lando-t, lando-I puts a massive dent in it, skill swap azelf is cool, Offensive heatran, etc. The fact that it's so slow puts so much pressure on it to continually switch into the threats its supposed to wall, set up, recover, etc. Don't feel as strongly about this one.
Magnzeone:
I supported this drop when it initially came up, and still do. Yeah, trapping steels is nifty but the position you're put in after locking yourself into HP Fire or Tbolt is awful, considering how many setup sweepers can take advantage of that (I don't need to list them), and it's and electric type that doesn't check talonflame. Heck, I'd rather use magneton for that sake since it actually outpspeeds and the bulk really doesn't make a difference.
Hippowdon:
A rank, yes.
I'm not going to repeat what others said but I'll just quote Teeny Victory:
Might post about the others later.
Landorus-I
S rank for sure. This thing practically defines the meta, and even had a massive influence in XY as it was a significant factor in the creation of SpDef Gliscor. As per the obvious, it hits like a truck with its STAB Earth Power and has a way to smack just about all of its usual checks and counters with its sizeable movepool; psychic for general coverage on stuff like conk, venu, amoonguss, sludge wave hits fairies and Celebi, knock off
Kurona Saying that using Lando-I over Lando-T is an opportunity cost is a poor argument against it moving to S rank because the pokemon do completely different things.
Mega Sableye
Pretty reasonable drop. The meta has certainly adapted to it quite well, as most hazard setters have a way to get past it: think lum sd chomp, earth plate lando-t, lando-I puts a massive dent in it, skill swap azelf is cool, Offensive heatran, etc. The fact that it's so slow puts so much pressure on it to continually switch into the threats its supposed to wall, set up, recover, etc. Don't feel as strongly about this one.
Magnzeone:
I supported this drop when it initially came up, and still do. Yeah, trapping steels is nifty but the position you're put in after locking yourself into HP Fire or Tbolt is awful, considering how many setup sweepers can take advantage of that (I don't need to list them), and it's and electric type that doesn't check talonflame. Heck, I'd rather use magneton for that sake since it actually outpspeeds and the bulk really doesn't make a difference.
Hippowdon:
A rank, yes.
I'm not going to repeat what others said but I'll just quote Teeny Victory:
Might post about the others later.
Nominating Azumarill to drop from A+ rank to A rank.
Still hard to switch into but the AV set lost a lot of value since Greninja got Gunk shot to kill it then it got banned and nowadays Keldeo is not played specs 100%, subcm Keldeo has no problem to deal with it since Azumarill is an absolute burn magnet, Lava plume / Scald on everything he'll try to switch into. The Belly drum set is not really good too, since a lot of mons faster than it can resist water, mons like Starmie / Altaria / Celebi for example. The CB set may be the best set atm since the hit and run fits him well, but it's not worth A+ at all, the water priority is not amazing, the only viable threat to revenge kill is Diancie i guess, and after Diamant storm it's not even sure to kill lol.
A rank is still really high, i just think Azumarill is a bit overestimated at the moment.
(Landorus S+, Sableye A+, Raikou A-, Starmie stays A-, Hippo A, Zone B+ btw, everyone already said everything about it)
Still hard to switch into but the AV set lost a lot of value since Greninja got Gunk shot to kill it then it got banned and nowadays Keldeo is not played specs 100%, subcm Keldeo has no problem to deal with it since Azumarill is an absolute burn magnet, Lava plume / Scald on everything he'll try to switch into. The Belly drum set is not really good too, since a lot of mons faster than it can resist water, mons like Starmie / Altaria / Celebi for example. The CB set may be the best set atm since the hit and run fits him well, but it's not worth A+ at all, the water priority is not amazing, the only viable threat to revenge kill is Diancie i guess, and after Diamant storm it's not even sure to kill lol.
A rank is still really high, i just think Azumarill is a bit overestimated at the moment.
(Landorus S+, Sableye A+, Raikou A-, Starmie stays A-, Hippo A, Zone B+ btw, everyone already said everything about it)
I agree with Landorus for S rank. It's easily one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier for balanced teams and stall teams alike, and we all know balance is the playstyle of choice at the moment. The only real issue I have with Landorus is that it fluctuates with the meta pretty drastically. It's good right now because people either aren't preparing for it, or rely on Gliscor to do it (easily stopped by HP Ice).Eventually the meta will adapt to it like it always does and like it did when we first dropped it. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that Landorus shouldn't be S. As it stands now, Landorus is a major threat, and it deserves to be ranked as such.
Hippo to A is also something I agree with. While it is a very passive Pokemon, it does have the tools it needs to ensure Pokemon won't be setting up on it through Whirlwind, Toxic, and Rock Slide/Stone Edge. And on top of that, it just covers so many threats. Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Bisharp, Thundurus, Mega Manectric, Lopunny, non-SD Lando-T and Excadrill, etc.. Checking/countering all these Pokemon in a single slot is really useful, and the added benefit of sand makes it even better.
I'm also ok with Sableye dropping. Sableye is pretty easily prepared for at the moment, since fairies are so good (especially in the suspect meta). It's shut down by a lot of common threats, or at least it has a harder time setting up against them, and the Pokemon it threatens the most (Gallade, Bisharp, stallbreaker mew, etc.) are all lower in usage than they were when ORAS first started. It's still good, and still a restrictive mon, just not at the level of other S ranked mons.
I've never liked Magnezone much. It's very matchup based, complete deadweight against certain teams (any team with a SDef Hippo laughs at it), and its only real use is beating Ferrothorn, which isn't too hard of a Pokemon to weaken anyway due to the number of Pokemon that attempt to lure it. Scarf is slow and weak at the same time, specs is slow and despite its power is easily taken advantage of. I know people love this mon because of the Italian Offense team a while back, but Skarmory is not a common mon anymore, fast Scizor is more common than ever, and Magnezone continues to be a waste of a slot in an increasing number of battles.
I might be biased, but I also agree with Serperior rising. I just posted an RMT based around a Seperior/Suicune/Mega Altaria core that has been working really well for me. I know that a lot of people are turned off by Serperior simply because of how common Heatran is, and while beating Heatran can be an uphill battle, battling teams without it is an absolute joy. So many offensive teams lose to Serperior outright, as well as balanced teams if you have the right support (i.e. spikes, momentum, etc.). It's very fast, decently strong with a Life Orb, and I think it's more consistent than Mega Sceptile, but I know people disagree with me there so whatever. but it just doesn't seem to fit alongside stuff like Lucario, you know?
Tyrantrum is super fun c: I built a team with it recently that uses the Band set, and it's so much fun to use. It 2HKOs everything with Head Smash that isn't named Hippowdon. Like, seriously Superpower + Head Smash + Outrage is perfect coverage. It destroys everything and then some. We're talking about a Pokemon that does 62-72% to standard Slowbro. It's an absolute monster, and I think C+ is fine for it, though I could see it in B-. It actually reminds me a lot of Dragalge, just physical. The only real downside to it is the 80% Head Smash accuracy :c that can really suck.
and the other mons I either don't care about or don't really use often enough to say n_n
Hippo to A is also something I agree with. While it is a very passive Pokemon, it does have the tools it needs to ensure Pokemon won't be setting up on it through Whirlwind, Toxic, and Rock Slide/Stone Edge. And on top of that, it just covers so many threats. Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Bisharp, Thundurus, Mega Manectric, Lopunny, non-SD Lando-T and Excadrill, etc.. Checking/countering all these Pokemon in a single slot is really useful, and the added benefit of sand makes it even better.
I'm also ok with Sableye dropping. Sableye is pretty easily prepared for at the moment, since fairies are so good (especially in the suspect meta). It's shut down by a lot of common threats, or at least it has a harder time setting up against them, and the Pokemon it threatens the most (Gallade, Bisharp, stallbreaker mew, etc.) are all lower in usage than they were when ORAS first started. It's still good, and still a restrictive mon, just not at the level of other S ranked mons.
I've never liked Magnezone much. It's very matchup based, complete deadweight against certain teams (any team with a SDef Hippo laughs at it), and its only real use is beating Ferrothorn, which isn't too hard of a Pokemon to weaken anyway due to the number of Pokemon that attempt to lure it. Scarf is slow and weak at the same time, specs is slow and despite its power is easily taken advantage of. I know people love this mon because of the Italian Offense team a while back, but Skarmory is not a common mon anymore, fast Scizor is more common than ever, and Magnezone continues to be a waste of a slot in an increasing number of battles.
I might be biased, but I also agree with Serperior rising. I just posted an RMT based around a Seperior/Suicune/Mega Altaria core that has been working really well for me. I know that a lot of people are turned off by Serperior simply because of how common Heatran is, and while beating Heatran can be an uphill battle, battling teams without it is an absolute joy. So many offensive teams lose to Serperior outright, as well as balanced teams if you have the right support (i.e. spikes, momentum, etc.). It's very fast, decently strong with a Life Orb, and I think it's more consistent than Mega Sceptile, but I know people disagree with me there so whatever. but it just doesn't seem to fit alongside stuff like Lucario, you know?
Tyrantrum is super fun c: I built a team with it recently that uses the Band set, and it's so much fun to use. It 2HKOs everything with Head Smash that isn't named Hippowdon. Like, seriously Superpower + Head Smash + Outrage is perfect coverage. It destroys everything and then some. We're talking about a Pokemon that does 62-72% to standard Slowbro. It's an absolute monster, and I think C+ is fine for it, though I could see it in B-. It actually reminds me a lot of Dragalge, just physical. The only real downside to it is the 80% Head Smash accuracy :c that can really suck.
and the other mons I either don't care about or don't really use often enough to say n_n
Here's a few of the proposed changes that I agree with.
Landorus to S: Landorus has been a sleeping giant for a while now. Ever since ORAS started, I've found Landorus to be similar to Pokemon like Keldeo and Latios in that I can often just slap it on random offensive or balanced teams and get pretty good results. I started using it more often at the beginning of ORAS since it was one of a few Stealth Rock setters that could power its way past Mega Sableye, and it also had the power and speed to put a lot of pressure on certain balanced and stall builds with proper play and prediction (so good guessing, basically). It can drop Stealth Rock for a fourth attack to further threaten these teams, with Knock Off and HP Ice being the primary examples here, and Rock Polish sets can slice through a lot of offensive teams later in the game. But yeah, I just think that Landorus is really similar to Keldeo in how easy it is to throw on a team and reap the rewards, and it can be tweaked to threaten just about any playstyle that you want, especially now that stall teams can't just throw on a SpD Gliscor and call it a day given the fairly recent rise of HP Ice as a coverage move once again. Ah, takes me back to the late BW days...
Starmie to A: I've really liked Starmie as an offensive Water ever since Greninja was banned. Other than being a spinner, being a fast offensive Water is something that Starmie was always known for, and Greninja's ban removed the single greatest competition that it had in that area. Starmie's fast enough to where it can beat just about everything Greninja could, outside of a couple of things like Scarf Tyranitar and Tornadus-T. Its coverage moves might not be as powerful as Greninja's were thanks to Protean, but its Analytic-boosted Hydro Pump gives it a nuke to slam switch-ins with that has a significantly higher damage output than anything Greninja was capable of creating. Plus, it has strong Electric coverage in Thunderbolt without having to use Hidden Power, and it has plenty of other great coverage moves to beat just about anything outside of really fat stuff like Chansey. Past the fast Water niche, Starmie is still a powerful spinner that can viably run both offensive and defensive spinning sets. I'd like to see this thing rise as a result.
Mega Sableye to A+: Okay, so here's the big one.
I've been meaning to bring this up for a while, so I'm glad that it's being considered, because I've found Mega Sableye to be pretty overrated as of late. I was honestly a little surprised when it was promoted to S Rank originally, but I didn't complain because let's be real, Mega Sableye is a really good Pokemon. Plus, the diverse control it had over the hazard game really shook things up and left a huge impact on the existing hazard environment of the metagame at the time. However, as has been discussed multiple times already, the hazard game as already evolved quite nicely to deal with Mega Sableye. More and more people are using hazard setters like Lum Berry Garchomp, Earth Plate Landorus-T, and Clefable, which all have the ability to muscle their way past Mega Sableye and get Stealth Rock up. Even when you're talking about really passive hazard setters like Ferrothorn, it's not a given that Mega Sableye will be able to stop them either. If your opponent leads with Ferrothorn and you don't lead with Sableye or something that can KO Ferrothorn, your opponent is going to get Stealth Rock up regardless of the existence of Mega Sableye on your team. If you lead with Sableye and your opponent leads with something that threatens it (Mega Gardevoir, for instance), then Sableye will be forced out before it can Mega evolve and your opponent might be able to bring Ferrothorn in before you get the chance and set Stealth Rock. I realize that there are a lot of different scenarios that can happen here, but the bottom line is that players have been able to adapt nicely so that they can get Stealth Rock up even against Mega Sableye teams. I think it says a lot when we have a recent Smog article that recommends using a hazard remover alongside Mega Sableye, which is pretty telling for a Pokemon so hyped as a tool of hazard prevention.
I also think Mega Sableye's defensive capabilities have been exaggerated a bit. Base 125 Def and 115 SpD are great; base 50 HP is not, and it means that Mega Sableye's bulk is far less impressive than its high defensive base stats would lead you to believe. Combined with the lack of Leftovers recovery, this means that Mega Sableye is often going to be stretched thin with regards to what it can safely come in on. Piling EVs into one defensive stat and focusing on that side of the defensive spectrum will enable Mega Sableye to take hits really well on one side, but that's also going to leave it open on the other. For instance, you can run max Def and better handle things such as Landorus-T and Terrakion, but you'll be cleanly 2HKOed by things like offensive Heatran and Thundurus. You can run max SpD to handle those two, but now those aforementioned physical attackers are threatening with 2HKOs of their own. And of course, splitting EVs is just going to water down the bulk of a Pokemon who's only taking physical hits about as well as Terrakion and is taking special hits even less effectively. The current spread on the analysis is 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpD Careful, and while this spread takes overall hits decently enough, it's still getting threatened with 2HKOs by things like itemless Garchomp's Outrage, Specs Keldeo's Scald, Clefable's unboosted Moonblast, LO Thundurus's Thunderbolt, LO Bisharp's Iron Head (plus those flinches), etc. Even with the attacks that it can escape 2HKOs from, it survives by such small margins that even the slightest bit of chip damage will remove its ability to safely switch in.
Finally, as has been mentioned also, people just know how to prepare for Mega Sableye now. There are plenty of great Fairies out there (which will be even more of an issue for Mega Sableye if Mega Metagross gets banned), things like the Mega Charizards and SubCM Keldeo can threaten it, and some people have even found value in more niche stuff like Mega Houndoom. Stallbreakers like Calm Mind Clefable and SD Gliscor have grown in popularity, and they all have the ability to muscle through stall teams that rely on Mega Sableye to handle traditional stallbreakers. The metagame overall has just adapted to it so well, and this definitely shows when you look at its rapidly declining popularity in SPL. As of Week 5, Sableye only has 6 uses in SPL, and 4 of those came from the first week alone. Now compare this to Keldeo (31 uses), Metagross (22 uses), and Landorus (15 uses). Of course, I realize that usage stats don't tell the whole story, but this is SPL that we're talking about here. These are some of Smogon's best players duking it out in this tournament, and if Sableye has hardly been touched since the first week of SPL, then it probably means something.
Overall, Mega Sableye is still a really good Pokemon. It still has unique control over the hazard game, the Calm Mind sets can still act as a good win condition for some teams, and it still checks a lot of stuff. It's still a nice catch-all for defensive and balanced teams with boundless amounts of utility. However, I just feel that a lot of Mega Sableye's best assets have been exaggerated a bit, and with the way the metagame has adapted to it, I don't feel that it's powerful or influential enough to warrant S Rank any longer.
Tyrantrum to C+: Maybe C+ is a little too high, maybe it's a little too low, but I do think Tyrantrum needs to be ranked somewhere. Choice Band Head Smash is just too unbelievably sexy right now, and the few things that resist it get beaten by Earthquake, Outrage, Superpower, Fire Fang, or whatever else Tyrantrum might be running. Since I really don't have too much else to add at the moment, I'll close with this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 219-258 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And this:
Landorus to S: Landorus has been a sleeping giant for a while now. Ever since ORAS started, I've found Landorus to be similar to Pokemon like Keldeo and Latios in that I can often just slap it on random offensive or balanced teams and get pretty good results. I started using it more often at the beginning of ORAS since it was one of a few Stealth Rock setters that could power its way past Mega Sableye, and it also had the power and speed to put a lot of pressure on certain balanced and stall builds with proper play and prediction (so good guessing, basically). It can drop Stealth Rock for a fourth attack to further threaten these teams, with Knock Off and HP Ice being the primary examples here, and Rock Polish sets can slice through a lot of offensive teams later in the game. But yeah, I just think that Landorus is really similar to Keldeo in how easy it is to throw on a team and reap the rewards, and it can be tweaked to threaten just about any playstyle that you want, especially now that stall teams can't just throw on a SpD Gliscor and call it a day given the fairly recent rise of HP Ice as a coverage move once again. Ah, takes me back to the late BW days...
Starmie to A: I've really liked Starmie as an offensive Water ever since Greninja was banned. Other than being a spinner, being a fast offensive Water is something that Starmie was always known for, and Greninja's ban removed the single greatest competition that it had in that area. Starmie's fast enough to where it can beat just about everything Greninja could, outside of a couple of things like Scarf Tyranitar and Tornadus-T. Its coverage moves might not be as powerful as Greninja's were thanks to Protean, but its Analytic-boosted Hydro Pump gives it a nuke to slam switch-ins with that has a significantly higher damage output than anything Greninja was capable of creating. Plus, it has strong Electric coverage in Thunderbolt without having to use Hidden Power, and it has plenty of other great coverage moves to beat just about anything outside of really fat stuff like Chansey. Past the fast Water niche, Starmie is still a powerful spinner that can viably run both offensive and defensive spinning sets. I'd like to see this thing rise as a result.
Mega Sableye to A+: Okay, so here's the big one.
I've been meaning to bring this up for a while, so I'm glad that it's being considered, because I've found Mega Sableye to be pretty overrated as of late. I was honestly a little surprised when it was promoted to S Rank originally, but I didn't complain because let's be real, Mega Sableye is a really good Pokemon. Plus, the diverse control it had over the hazard game really shook things up and left a huge impact on the existing hazard environment of the metagame at the time. However, as has been discussed multiple times already, the hazard game as already evolved quite nicely to deal with Mega Sableye. More and more people are using hazard setters like Lum Berry Garchomp, Earth Plate Landorus-T, and Clefable, which all have the ability to muscle their way past Mega Sableye and get Stealth Rock up. Even when you're talking about really passive hazard setters like Ferrothorn, it's not a given that Mega Sableye will be able to stop them either. If your opponent leads with Ferrothorn and you don't lead with Sableye or something that can KO Ferrothorn, your opponent is going to get Stealth Rock up regardless of the existence of Mega Sableye on your team. If you lead with Sableye and your opponent leads with something that threatens it (Mega Gardevoir, for instance), then Sableye will be forced out before it can Mega evolve and your opponent might be able to bring Ferrothorn in before you get the chance and set Stealth Rock. I realize that there are a lot of different scenarios that can happen here, but the bottom line is that players have been able to adapt nicely so that they can get Stealth Rock up even against Mega Sableye teams. I think it says a lot when we have a recent Smog article that recommends using a hazard remover alongside Mega Sableye, which is pretty telling for a Pokemon so hyped as a tool of hazard prevention.
I also think Mega Sableye's defensive capabilities have been exaggerated a bit. Base 125 Def and 115 SpD are great; base 50 HP is not, and it means that Mega Sableye's bulk is far less impressive than its high defensive base stats would lead you to believe. Combined with the lack of Leftovers recovery, this means that Mega Sableye is often going to be stretched thin with regards to what it can safely come in on. Piling EVs into one defensive stat and focusing on that side of the defensive spectrum will enable Mega Sableye to take hits really well on one side, but that's also going to leave it open on the other. For instance, you can run max Def and better handle things such as Landorus-T and Terrakion, but you'll be cleanly 2HKOed by things like offensive Heatran and Thundurus. You can run max SpD to handle those two, but now those aforementioned physical attackers are threatening with 2HKOs of their own. And of course, splitting EVs is just going to water down the bulk of a Pokemon who's only taking physical hits about as well as Terrakion and is taking special hits even less effectively. The current spread on the analysis is 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpD Careful, and while this spread takes overall hits decently enough, it's still getting threatened with 2HKOs by things like itemless Garchomp's Outrage, Specs Keldeo's Scald, Clefable's unboosted Moonblast, LO Thundurus's Thunderbolt, LO Bisharp's Iron Head (plus those flinches), etc. Even with the attacks that it can escape 2HKOs from, it survives by such small margins that even the slightest bit of chip damage will remove its ability to safely switch in.
Finally, as has been mentioned also, people just know how to prepare for Mega Sableye now. There are plenty of great Fairies out there (which will be even more of an issue for Mega Sableye if Mega Metagross gets banned), things like the Mega Charizards and SubCM Keldeo can threaten it, and some people have even found value in more niche stuff like Mega Houndoom. Stallbreakers like Calm Mind Clefable and SD Gliscor have grown in popularity, and they all have the ability to muscle through stall teams that rely on Mega Sableye to handle traditional stallbreakers. The metagame overall has just adapted to it so well, and this definitely shows when you look at its rapidly declining popularity in SPL. As of Week 5, Sableye only has 6 uses in SPL, and 4 of those came from the first week alone. Now compare this to Keldeo (31 uses), Metagross (22 uses), and Landorus (15 uses). Of course, I realize that usage stats don't tell the whole story, but this is SPL that we're talking about here. These are some of Smogon's best players duking it out in this tournament, and if Sableye has hardly been touched since the first week of SPL, then it probably means something.
Overall, Mega Sableye is still a really good Pokemon. It still has unique control over the hazard game, the Calm Mind sets can still act as a good win condition for some teams, and it still checks a lot of stuff. It's still a nice catch-all for defensive and balanced teams with boundless amounts of utility. However, I just feel that a lot of Mega Sableye's best assets have been exaggerated a bit, and with the way the metagame has adapted to it, I don't feel that it's powerful or influential enough to warrant S Rank any longer.
Tyrantrum to C+: Maybe C+ is a little too high, maybe it's a little too low, but I do think Tyrantrum needs to be ranked somewhere. Choice Band Head Smash is just too unbelievably sexy right now, and the few things that resist it get beaten by Earthquake, Outrage, Superpower, Fire Fang, or whatever else Tyrantrum might be running. Since I really don't have too much else to add at the moment, I'll close with this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 219-258 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And this:
Don't mind if I sidetrack a little bit.
I would like to nominate Diancie being unranked. Seriously, there is really no reason to use this mon unless it is holding its mega stone. Its ability is meh and is incredibly slow to set up with CM or Rock Polish. Its seemingly amazing 150/150 defenses are neutered by its horrible base 50 HP stat, and to top it off has a poor defensive typing. It is my opinion though, so if some of you disagree feel free to comment and criticise.
I would like to nominate Diancie being unranked. Seriously, there is really no reason to use this mon unless it is holding its mega stone. Its ability is meh and is incredibly slow to set up with CM or Rock Polish. Its seemingly amazing 150/150 defenses are neutered by its horrible base 50 HP stat, and to top it off has a poor defensive typing. It is my opinion though, so if some of you disagree feel free to comment and criticise.
Diance is not a setup mon diance is used as a bulky TR setter and it does a damn fine job at it being a mon on tr that counters talon is also amazing
Heres the few things I care about!
Lando-I: from A+ to S - Agree
Nothing I can say hasn't been said already. Splashable mon that can perform a wide variety of roles. Support it going to S, although it should be noted that it does have a slight opportunity cost in that you can't use landog. Really amazing mon, can pic its counters, and really diverse.
M-Sableye: from S to A+ - Agree
Well, we all saw it coming. Sableye is a great mon whos cool typing, pretty good bulk, and great ability have made it a huge boon, and practically, a staple for stall teams. However, the metagame has become way more prepared for it, with fairies being everywhere, the increasing popularity of spdef sd talonflame, and it has a hella hard time trying to set up. It's still good, but the meta is way more prepared for it and its harder to effectively use
Anyways, I think tangrowth should move up to B due to the av set being a great pivot thats able to check or counter a huge amount mons, most notably keldeo, bisharp, landog, rotom-w, slowbro, non-bd azu, m-diancie, lando-i without sludge wave, kabutops, mega-gyara, excadrill, lati@s after rocks, and is able to go toe-on-toe with metagross. It also has really solid longevity with regenerator alongside giga drain recover with a neutrality to rocks. However, it does have its flaws, as grass is pretty trash typing, alongside low BP moves with uninvested attack stats that often make it passive and often set up fodder to threats like mega altaria and clef (talonflame too if youre not running rock slide, which I don't recommend as you lose more important coverage).
Overall, I think tangrowth should move up to B for being a great check to a lot of top-tier threats with a decent offensive presence thanks to great coverage.
This is the standard tangrowth set, but I thought I should post it just to make it easier incase someone wanted to test it out!
Lando-I: from A+ to S - Agree
Nothing I can say hasn't been said already. Splashable mon that can perform a wide variety of roles. Support it going to S, although it should be noted that it does have a slight opportunity cost in that you can't use landog. Really amazing mon, can pic its counters, and really diverse.
M-Sableye: from S to A+ - Agree
Well, we all saw it coming. Sableye is a great mon whos cool typing, pretty good bulk, and great ability have made it a huge boon, and practically, a staple for stall teams. However, the metagame has become way more prepared for it, with fairies being everywhere, the increasing popularity of spdef sd talonflame, and it has a hella hard time trying to set up. It's still good, but the meta is way more prepared for it and its harder to effectively use
Anyways, I think tangrowth should move up to B due to the av set being a great pivot thats able to check or counter a huge amount mons, most notably keldeo, bisharp, landog, rotom-w, slowbro, non-bd azu, m-diancie, lando-i without sludge wave, kabutops, mega-gyara, excadrill, lati@s after rocks, and is able to go toe-on-toe with metagross. It also has really solid longevity with regenerator alongside giga drain recover with a neutrality to rocks. However, it does have its flaws, as grass is pretty trash typing, alongside low BP moves with uninvested attack stats that often make it passive and often set up fodder to threats like mega altaria and clef (talonflame too if youre not running rock slide, which I don't recommend as you lose more important coverage).
Overall, I think tangrowth should move up to B for being a great check to a lot of top-tier threats with a decent offensive presence thanks to great coverage.
This is the standard tangrowth set, but I thought I should post it just to make it easier incase someone wanted to test it out!
10 bands (Tangrowth) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
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I forgot to answer this one when I was answering responses earlier so here's your reply dude / dudette. I sort of get the logic why people want it to drop to D but I think you and many others when this topic gets brought up don't realize how absolutely cancer Baton Pass is to play against it. Something that is a pain in the ass to face and basically wins on a bunch of favorable match-ups is extremely hard to comfortably tell, at least myself I can't speak for others, that these two qualify as D rank mons when their legitimate practical use is far from that. Take Smeargle v Gorebyss for example who are generally considered Baton Passers as roles. You have Gorebyss who can smash pass but due to the nature of the move necessitates White Herb to function effectively along with some added offensive traits before passing along to a receiver. Then you have Smeargle who gets tons of utility moves to utilize for passing purposes that amplifies of the effectiveness of whatever it feels like it because it gets access to Cotton Guard which bumps Defense up 3 stages along with Power Herb + Geomancy to make receivers such as Espeon have much more staying power from a defensive stand point along with added offense while Gorebyss primarily will only be able to pass along offensive stats in most scenarios. Basically you can view the two, Smeargle and Espeon, as part of their own little thing going on in terms of viability and ranking as their effectiveness at its prime bounce off of each other. D rank is not good for something that is realistically effective and if it wasn't for the fact that it's so niche in its use, it would be higher.
Agreed on Tangrowth used it a lot, the only problem with it is it's always gonna be setup fodder for either M-Scizor or SpD Gliscor.
When used on more offensive teams though I prefer Leaf Storm over Giga Drain as the extra BP helps it power through stuff like Rotom-W/Slowbro much more easily you just gotta be careful about it and the extra healing I rarely needed as regenerator is usually enough.
Definitely a highly underrated mon that not only checks/counters a ton, but is also an excellent pivot HP Fire should be slashed along HP Ice though as it allows you to beat Scizor/Ferrothorn and perhaps Rock Slide so Talonflame doesn't come in for free/sets up on you depending on which move you run you will need solid answers to the things you can't hurt though which IMO is really the only drawback about using Tangrowth.
Great thing about Tangrowth is that its moveset can pretty much be tailored to what your team needs. I'll be refering to the AV set in this post. HP Ice makes it a damn fine stop to Lando-T and Gliscor, HP Fire lets it check Scizor and beat Ferrothorn, Earthquake lures Heatran, Rock Slide lures Talonflame and Zards, it has Knock Off for general utility, strong STAB options in Leaf Storm/Power Whip, hell even Sludge Bomb to check Clefable and Altaria.
It makes a cool pivot that checks a lot of currently popular mons like Garchomp, Landoge, Ttar, Hippo, Manaphy, and Keldeo. I'm not sure if that's enough to warrant a raise in rank but it's a great mon that should see more use imo.
It makes a cool pivot that checks a lot of currently popular mons like Garchomp, Landoge, Ttar, Hippo, Manaphy, and Keldeo. I'm not sure if that's enough to warrant a raise in rank but it's a great mon that should see more use imo.
I absolutelt agree with everything you said. However in my experience with AV tangrowth ( I used it a LOT in XY) I've noticed that it actually doesn't fare that well against set-up sweepers, particularly dragons, particularly Chomp and Xzard. Both are faster (duh) and threaten with outrage. Meaning you can't 2HKO them unless on the switch.
Still, tangrowth, especially AV tangrowth, is a fantastic lure, able to lure different mons all at once while still providing great utility in knock off, and a good mixup of physical/special coverage. Definitely deserves a bump up.
This is my first post on a thread ever, but I would like to bring up a conversation on Scolipede: from B- to B.
When people see Scolipede, they automatically think, "Ew, Baton Pass." However, Scolipede can be quite the offensive threat. Getting two good STABS in Poison Jab and Megahorn, and getting coverage in Earthquake or even Rock Slide. You can also Protect for a Speed Boost, giving you capabilities of out speeding scarf users. The power is ridiculous and I would definitely consider Scolipede underrated in OU. Just to help my argument, I have some calcs.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 198-234 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 499-588 (129.6 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 289-343 (94.1 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 146-173 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 200-237 (62.8 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
When people see Scolipede, they automatically think, "Ew, Baton Pass." However, Scolipede can be quite the offensive threat. Getting two good STABS in Poison Jab and Megahorn, and getting coverage in Earthquake or even Rock Slide. You can also Protect for a Speed Boost, giving you capabilities of out speeding scarf users. The power is ridiculous and I would definitely consider Scolipede underrated in OU. Just to help my argument, I have some calcs.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 198-234 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 499-588 (129.6 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 289-343 (94.1 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 146-173 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 200-237 (62.8 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I would like to nominate Volcarona from B+ to A-
This is my first post here so I might not be very good at proposing changes to the rankings but hear me out. I've used Volcarona a lot and it's one of the most underrated Pokemon that can tear apart teams who are unprepared for it with ease. The Offensive Timid set is the most deadly form of Volcarona as it can tear through stall teams and balance teams who are unprepared. You can send out Volcarona out early-mid game for immediate pressure and punch holes in your opponents team or mid-late game for cleaning up. Volcarona's good 85/65/105 allows it to come in and set up a Quiver Dance on Pokemon weak to it like Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc. Once you have a +1 in speed you can outspeed "anything under base 92 Spe even with positive nature, without any boosts." Not only that you can also get rid Landorus-T with Fire Blast 87.5% of the time, or you can get rid of Sabelye. But when you get to +2 in Speed you reach a speed of 620 which outspeed all Pokemon under Base 110s and outspeed Positive Nature SandRush Excadrill under the sand and proceed to KO him and ruin Sand Core, and you can outspeed Swampert and Kingdra and destroy Rain Core offensive with Giga Drain. The only Pokemon that can force out Volcarona at +2 special attack are Chansey, Heatran, Charizard-X, Azumarill, Tentacruel, Goodra, Dragonite, and Talonflame. That being said Volcarona is very prone to ThunderWave, Toxic and its arch enemy Stealth Rock. Volcarona desperately needs hazard control in order to sweep which limits it's chances of coming in. It's also prone to priority moves because no matter even if you're at +6 you can still be outsped by Azumarill's aqua jet and Mega's Pinsir's Quick Attack.
Calcs:
This is my first post here so I might not be very good at proposing changes to the rankings but hear me out. I've used Volcarona a lot and it's one of the most underrated Pokemon that can tear apart teams who are unprepared for it with ease. The Offensive Timid set is the most deadly form of Volcarona as it can tear through stall teams and balance teams who are unprepared. You can send out Volcarona out early-mid game for immediate pressure and punch holes in your opponents team or mid-late game for cleaning up. Volcarona's good 85/65/105 allows it to come in and set up a Quiver Dance on Pokemon weak to it like Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc. Once you have a +1 in speed you can outspeed "anything under base 92 Spe even with positive nature, without any boosts." Not only that you can also get rid Landorus-T with Fire Blast 87.5% of the time, or you can get rid of Sabelye. But when you get to +2 in Speed you reach a speed of 620 which outspeed all Pokemon under Base 110s and outspeed Positive Nature SandRush Excadrill under the sand and proceed to KO him and ruin Sand Core, and you can outspeed Swampert and Kingdra and destroy Rain Core offensive with Giga Drain. The only Pokemon that can force out Volcarona at +2 special attack are Chansey, Heatran, Charizard-X, Azumarill, Tentacruel, Goodra, Dragonite, and Talonflame. That being said Volcarona is very prone to ThunderWave, Toxic and its arch enemy Stealth Rock. Volcarona desperately needs hazard control in order to sweep which limits it's chances of coming in. It's also prone to priority moves because no matter even if you're at +6 you can still be outsped by Azumarill's aqua jet and Mega's Pinsir's Quick Attack.
Calcs:
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 441-519 (115.4 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 728-858 (184.7 - 217.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 558-656 (186.6 - 219.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 338-398 (92.6 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 368-434 (113.9 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 316-374 (104.2 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 404-476 (118.4 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 728-858 (184.7 - 217.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 558-656 (186.6 - 219.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 338-398 (92.6 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 368-434 (113.9 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 316-374 (104.2 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 404-476 (118.4 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ok, not making any comment about whether or not either of these mons should move up, but both of these posts are basically showing calcs that say "This pokemon can 2hKO this wall with an SE move." Like, wow, super effective moves do a lot of damage? Who would'a thought! Seriously, to showcase a mons power you have to show what it can do against walls and tanks that like to come in on its stabs.
For Example, this calc:
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 499-588 (129.6 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Wow, A move heatran is 4x weak to OHKO's it? Amazing! But EQ coming off anything with the move kills heatan. When posting calcs, you cant just post obvious shit like that. Calcs need to show power in unfavorable situations. They need to show what a mon can do when it's on the wrong end of the barrel. Posting calcs like these add nothing to the discussion and can even hinder your argument by making it look like you aren't all that knowledgeable competitively. What I'm trying to say here is that posting a wall of calcs is all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day if the calcs hold no authority neither does your argument.
On that note everything else Dragongroudon9 said about scoliopede is pretty nice and I'd agree a raise is worth discussing.
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