Forretress (Custap Lead) [QC 0/3]

[Freeroamer]

Custap
########
name: Custap
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Explosion
move 3: Spikes / Toxic Spikes
move 4: Rapid Spin / Volt Switch / Gyro Ball
ability: Sturdy
item: Custap Berry
evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
ivs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
nature: Hasty / Lonely

Moves
========

-Stealth Rock is Stealth Rock, every team should have it somewhere and Forretress is a great option for getting it down reliably.

-Explosion combined with Custap Berry and Sturdy allows you to block potential Defog or Rapid Spin attempts, as well as doing huge damage to offensive pokemon and a chunk to bulkier ones.

-A second hazard is a must, as it's what distinguishes Forretress from other Custap leads alongside Explosion. Spikes is great for immediate damage, and wears down most pokemon quickly alongside Stealth Rock. Toxic Spikes is great for wearing down bulkier teams and spreading status, but are easier to remove via a grounded Poison-Type such as Nidoqueen or Roserade. They may also give a Guts pokemon like Heracross an unwelcome power boost.

-The last slot is a bit of a toss-up, Rapid Spin allows you to remove opposing hazards while preserving your own while Volt Switch can let you pivot out of unwelcome opposing leads(Taunt users etc.). Gyro Ball gives you the ability to beat Taunt Azelf and Taunt Aerodactyl leads, while still hitting most fast offensive pokemon for a reasonable amount of damage.


Set Details
========

-The EVs allow Explosion and possibly Gyro Ball to hit as hard as possible, while max Speed allows you to set an extra layer of hazards vs some walls you outspeed. No bulk investment is needed as this set wants to get knocked into Custap range so it can use a turn of priority. A bulkier set can be ran, with 252 HP and an Adamant nature, however this set doesn't really fulfil the role of suicide lead as well and isn't as reliable as getting hazards up continually as the defensive set.

-The given IVs reduce Forretress' bulk to it's minimum, so it's more likely to be knocked into Custap range.

-Hasty maximises Forretress' Speed, allowing it to outspeed 0 Speed Blastoise and Nidoqueen, meaning potentially an extra hazard or being able to remove their's before going down. A Lonely nature misses out on the above benchmark, but gives a notable increase to Explosion and possibly Gyro Ball's power. Both natures reduce Forretress' Defense to allow it to use Custap as often as possible.

-Custap is obviously the only item for this set, the turn of priority it grants alongside Sturdy allows Forretress to be so effective in getting hazards up and blocking their removal.

Usage Tips
========

-This set should be used as a lead nearly all of the time, getting early hazards and preventing their removal.

-If a potential Rapid Spin or Defog user comes in on this set, continue to set hazards until knocked into Custap range, at which point you use Explosion, preserving any hazards you have got up.


Team Options
========

-Offensive teammates that can pressure Defog and Rapid Spin users

-The likes of SD Lucario and Infernape pair well with this set, as the hazards Forretress supplies pressures their defensive answers much more.

-Mega Aerodactyl can threaten almost every Defogger in the tier, and appreciates the chip damage to help it secure KOes.

 

[Freeroamer]

OK this is ready for feedback, stuff I was particularly looking for opinions on was the EVs, should the rest be dumped in HP or would it be better to run none and get down to Custap easier? Also are there any team mates I should specifically mention? And finally the slashing on the last slot looks a little ugly, but I thought about it the way I did when I make my teams, and that seemed the best way.

 

[Politoad]

I'd slash Brave after Adamant because Gyro Ball is slashed too. I'm not QC but just a small thought of mine. Also maybe mention in Set Details that if Gyro Ball is ran, that there should be 0 EVs in Speed.

Also I'm not sure about this but I'd actually mention 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD EVs and only invest in Attack in Set Details. It lets forry hits as hard as possible and the purpose of this set when running Rocks is to set these up and then go boom (as long as no Spikes are ran)

Maybe also mention spinblockers in TO at offensive teammates or an own section, idk.

 

[Freeroamer]

I'd slash Brave after Adamant because Gyro Ball is slashed too. I'm not QC but just a small thought of mine. Also maybe mention in Set Details that if Gyro Ball is ran, that there should be 0 EVs in Speed.

Also I'm not sure about this but I'd actually mention 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 Spe EVs and only invest in Attack in Set Details. It lets forry hits as hard as possible and the purpose of this set when running Rocks is to set these up and then go boom (as long as no Spikes are ran)

Maybe also mention spinblockers in TO at offensive teammates are an own section, idk.

Ye the first 2 suggestions are good, adding. Not so sure about adding spinblockers as the only Ghost type i'd class as fitting onto the kind of teams that this fits on is Chandelure, and that's never switching into most spinners in the tier(think Blastoise, Donphan Tenta). The only spinner it actually stops is opposing Forre while other Ghost types such as Trevenant are better suited to teams that utilise the bulkier Forre set.

 

[Politoad]

Ye the first 2 suggestions are good, adding. Not so sure about adding spinblockers as the only Ghost type i'd class as fitting onto the kind of teams that this fits on is Chandelure, and that's never switching into most spinners in the tier(think Blastoise, Donphan Tenta). The only spinner it actually stops is opposing Forre while other Ghost types such as Trevenant are better suited to teams that utilise the bulkier Forre set.

Yeah, mainly for Chandelure and Doublade js isn't worth it, I wasn't sure about that, I said.

 

[Kink]

I'd say counter should also be slashed just cause it can get 2 kos instead of just 1, provided the opponent decides to wear it down with a physical wallbreaker.

 

[kokoloko]

lol this isnt even the correct set... its supposed to be max attack max speed hasty and 0 HP / Def / SpD IVs.

and the moves are:

rocks
spikes / tspikes
explosion
rapid spin / volt switch

gl getting knocked into custap range with defensive investment, really.

 

[Saria]

lol this isnt even the correct set... its supposed to be max attack max speed hasty and 0 HP / Def / SpD IVs.

and the moves are:

rocks
spikes / tspikes
explosion
rapid spin / volt switch

gl getting knocked into custap range with defensive investment, really.

Nah, the spread in the op gives Forretress some utility other than "lead, set up rocks, and die". It could probably be improved (SDef IVs could be lowered, etc. Need some testing / theorymoning), but it isn't "wrong"

252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Forretress: 144-169 (40.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Forretress: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Forretress: 165-195 (46.6 - 55%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Forretress: 111-132 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- 81.2% chance to 3HKO

Can switch into stuff like that, setup rocks, and be in Custap range (edit: Except vs Krook). It can also be an usable midgame spinner / hazards setter. .

Your set works, but it relies too much on the op not having a lead that can beat it, because with your spread if you aren't leading with it, you are starting the match with 5 Pokemon + a death fodder (Unless you are running dual spin in HO ?_? [running either set outside of offense is retarded]).

I do agree with your moves, except I'd add slash Gyro Ball in the 4th slow to be able to deal with Azelf and Aero leads. If you aren't running Rocks + (Toxic) Spikes, might as well run suicide Custap Donphan (it gets Head Smash, which can be used as a pseudo-Explosion).

 

[kokoloko]

thing is, if i want forry to do stuff other than lead, i'm using a different set. cause just like there are calcs that knock it into custap after two hits, there's shit like chandelure's shadow ball that will do like 60-70 or something if you run max hp (example is irrelevant, the concept is what matters). its a matter of maximizing the chances of doing what the set is supposed to do vs giving it the chance to do something its other sets do.

dunno, i prefer the former by a long shot.

Lowgock might have something to say about not minimizing your defenses too lol!

also regarding gyro, i dont like it cause 1. i prefer max speed on this set, and 2. you can just volt switch into something faster vs other sash leads which is probably better anyway. but i dont really feel strongly about this

not to mention im not qc so wutevz you guys decide lol

 

[Ernesto]

I used max atk / max spe but didn't lower the IVs. Don't really know what's best, it pretty much depends on counter leads I guess. V-Switch is useful if the opponent leads with a Taunt user, but it's not like you're forced to lead with Forry if you see Azelf or Lass (or Aero with another mega I guess) on the other team. Speedstacking teams should be running Taunt users anyway to prevent Defog. What I disagree with completely is with running Hasty tho, a +Atk nature is really useful for that boom since you're hitting 306. You're still outspeeding a bunch of walls at 179 (you miss out on 0 Spe Blaster and Queen, which might be bad, but technically against Blaster you should be dying with at least rocks most of the time, although you might not be able to boom on it).

Like Hikari said, I'd have to test the other spread, but overall I found the one I used to do what I wanted it to.

 

[Kink]

Custap should be in other options of the main set. This is far too versatile of a set to be given any sort of dedicated distinction.

but not qc so w/e

 

[dodmen]

No, this definitely needs its own set. The fact that it's versatile is what warrants its own set in the first place. Custap Forretress, which acts as a dedicated hazard setter, is completely different from defensive spinner Forretress.

I have to agree that I prefer the max speed variant of this set (have tested both max Spe and max HP variants). Not sure about +Atk/-Def vs Hasty, tbh I think it's 50/50s against Blastoise either way (but the extra power would definitely help). Otherwise I agree that if I wanted to switch into hits, I'd just go for the defensive Forretress sets that are already in the analysis. Since Custap Forry would mostly be acting as a dedicated hazard/suicide lead, lowering your defenses through IVs and nature would be best so that you can have the best shot at getting into Custap range. Personally I would go for 252 Atk / 252 Spe as what's listed, with possibly a mention of a slower and bulkier set in Set Details.

 

[Freeroamer]

OK, changes made:
-EV spread changed to max Attack max Speed as that seemed to be the most popular opinion
-Changed the natures to ones which reduce Defense, as this makes the most overall difference to bulk and makes using Custap easier. Also changed IVs along with this.
-Changed the moves because you're absolutely right, 2 hazards are essential.
-Changed the relevant sections to reflect the above.

 

[Saria]

I have to agree that I prefer the max speed variant of this set (have tested both max Spe and max HP variants). Not sure about +Atk/-Def vs Hasty, tbh I think it's 50/50s against Blastoise either way (but the extra power would definitely help). Otherwise I agree that if I wanted to switch into hits, I'd just go for the defensive Forretress sets that are already in the analysis. Since Custap Forry would mostly be acting as a dedicated hazard/suicide lead, lowering your defenses through IVs and nature would be best so that you can have the best shot at getting into Custap range. Personally I would go for 252 Atk / 252 Spe as what's listed, with possibly a mention of a slower and bulkier set in Set Details.

This set loses to every semi decent HO lead, unless your opponent has no idea of how to run HO. Also if you are running Speed, opposite Forretress and Donphan can just spin until HO Forretress dies, kills itself, or switches out to become death fodder later on. For a Pokemon that has no use outside of the lead position, it has far too many shitty matchups:

- Aerodactyl
252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Forretress: 130-154 (50 - 59.2%)
If it is running Fire Blast it puts it in Sturdy range and Unnerve stops Custap. So Forretress has to pick between:

1) Spinning to try to stop SR, but gets 2HKOed and Aero can setup rocks later
2) Setting up rocks, which allows Aero to 2HKO and keep its sash intact
3) Volt Switch to break the Sash, which allows Aero to setup Rocks or get free damage off Forretress. Also unless you are running faster than Aero, you are forced to go to your Scarfer or it'll get rocks up anyway. Revealing your Scarfer in HO turn two is bad.

- Azelf
252 SpA Azelf Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 135-159 (51.9 - 61.1%)
252 Atk Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Forretress: 96-113 (36.9 - 43.4%)
Fire Blast OHKOes and its coverage moves will never put Forretress in Custap range. Replace Azelf in the Aero scenarios and they are basically the same, except outspeeding Azelf without a Scarfer is more doable.

- Froslass
What's more important for you, setup Spikes or stop Forretress? Because the Froslass user can pick and there's nothing the Forretress user can do. Also

252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 100-118 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

No Custap here, so if Froslass has Shadow Ball, using anything but Volt Switch ends with a death Forretress, a layer of Spikes, and a 1% Froslass (unless you are running something with Rock Blast).

- Slower Spinners
Being faster than Donphan and opposite Forretress means that to keep hazards two things need to happen:

1) They have to decide to allow you to set them up
2) You can't spin their hazards

Now in practice, I cba to post replies right now but Sam's last SPL game is one of the reasons why I wouldn't use that set:

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 115-136 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 92-109 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- 17.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

From guaranteed 2HKO after rocks, to low chances of getting 3HKOed. It did work in the end for Sam because Meru never managed to setup hazards and because he wasn't running LO Shaymin (sigh)

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 100-118 (38.4 - 45.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 200-237 (76.9 - 91.1%)

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 79-95 (22.3 - 26.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 161-190 (45.4 - 53.6%)

As someone who likes running HO, I would never run a lead that matches up badly against every other dedicated lead and some spinners, and that has no real middgame utility because it's slow and frail. You could run Level 1 Pineco and achieve basically the same results more reliably, except it can't do any damage with Explosion, but it can potentially abuse Pain Split to cripple the opponent. Not all Pokemon that can be used as leads have to die in two turns.

If people prefer using the 0 bulk version, make that the standard set. I'm against it, but I won't force people to like what I like.

 

[dodmen]

Team Options should include spinblockers, with Chandelure and Doublade being the more reliable ones.

A bulkier set can be ran, with 252 HP and an Adamant nature, however this set doesn't really fulfil the role of suicide lead as well and isn't as reliable as getting hazards up continually as the defensive set.

This should be its own section at the end of Set Details, and the benefits of this set should be highlighted. Gonna approve this once these are implemented.