Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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lando is an easy S rank for me.

Seriously, this thing is better than its counterpart (which it really shouldn't be sometimes) and was very underrated back in XY. Im glad this guy actually gets some sunshine. No LO recoil with a 1.6x boost on every attack is fucking insane. Top off a 115 (or was it 125?) SpA and you have a fucking monster. All of its sets are easily better than A+ (RP, CM, etc.) and most teams basically lose if a +2 speed goes up. Honestly, this guy is borderline broken, basically. Probably our best S rank too.

Sableye to A+ seems reasonable. Honestly, agreeing with Gibbs over there, I was iffy when he was in S rank in the first place. In fact, I was iffy about basically every S rank bar MMeta and MLop (at the time). MSab really isnt that threatening; basically every fairy can take on MSab and Fairies are very common. Dont pull the "what if the fairy dies" bullshit because 90% of fairies can run recovery/are overall bulky, and they last very long and no idiot would drop their fairy if MSab is still alive on the opposing team. With the rising increase of MLop, Fairies, and in general, counters, this guy is seeing much less viability and usage. Definetly not an A+ ranked mon.

I was also gonna discuss Clef going for S rank, but I'm gonna save that after MMeta suspect (when he will most likely be banned)
 
RichieTheGarchomp said:
lando is an easy S rank for me.

Seriously, this thing is better than its counterpart (which it really shouldn't be sometimes) and was very underrated back in XY. Im glad this guy actually gets some sunshine. No LO recoil with a 1.6x boost on every attack is fucking insane. Top off a 115 (or was it 125?) SpA and you have a fucking monster. All of its sets are easily better than A+ (RP, CM, etc.) and most teams basically lose if a +2 speed goes up. Honestly, this guy is borderline broken, basically. Probably our best S rank too.

Sableye to A+ seems reasonable. Honestly, agreeing with Gibbs over there, I was iffy when he was in S rank in the first place. In fact, I was iffy about basically every S rank bar MMeta and MLop (at the time). MSab really isnt that threatening; basically every fairy can take on MSab and Fairies are very common. Dont pull the "what if the fairy dies" bullshit because 90% of fairies can run recovery/are overall bulky, and they last very long and no idiot would drop their fairy if MSab is still alive on the opposing team. With the rising increase of MLop, Fairies, and in general, counters, this guy is seeing much less viability and usage. Definetly not an A+ ranked mon.

I was also gonna discuss Clef going for S rank, but I'm gonna save that after MMeta suspect (when he will most likely be banned)
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Lando-I has base 125 SpA. His Attack is base 115 (actually decent mixed base stats, not that he wants to go mixed). Sheer Force + LO easily makes up for the slightly low SpA compared to Megas. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree that this thing should go to S.
 
RichieTheGarchomp said:
I was also gonna discuss Clef going for S rank
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On a more serious note, I'd like to nominate Mew to A-.

I know this was a topic before the last update but nobody had any discussion on it. I think it's safe to say that the decreased usage of M-Sableye has made Mew the pain in the arse that it was in XY (where it was A+). Since Mew fell to the B ranks almost solely because of M-Sableye, I think a rise to A- is natural since it has more breathing room.

Although Mew is not as effective against stall anymore, it really cripples balanced teams, a very popular playstyle right now (even more dominant on the suspect ladder). It can check the majority of physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp whilst also being a great special wall. Knock Off is spammable and Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Hippowdon and Heatran really dislike having it's leftover's knocked off. Mew is just such a solid lead against balance because it forces so many switches, which forces the opponent to basically 'choose' which Pokemon should have it's item knocked off or which Pokemon should get burned.

And it's not complete deadweight against hyper offence as well. Mew has the bulk to stomach a physical attack and cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. A burnt physical attacker on offence is close to useless (unless it can Swords Dance but standard Mew carries taunt) and Mew once again puts in work.
 
Phione said:
Lando-I has base 125 SpA. His Attack is base 115 (actually decent mixed base stats, not that he wants to go mixed). Sheer Force + LO easily makes up for the slightly low SpA compared to Megas. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree that this thing should go to S.
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You've actually got that backwards. Landorus's SpA is 115 and its Atk is 125. That said, it does kinda go to show just how good Sheer Force is when Landorus's most dangerous sets utilize its lowest offensive stat and they're still pretty amazing.
 
I also agree with Landorus-I for S rank. It has the capability to completely mess up any playstyle depending on what your team needs it to do. It wrecks stall with a Calm Mind set (and gives it loads of trouble in general), can clean offensive teams with a Rock Polish set, and can destroy balance with the all-out attacker. It does many things extremely well right now that I honestly think it deserves nothing less than S rank.
 
s0me1 b0red said:
Lando-I: from A+ to S - (Strongly) Disagree. It's very good in the current meta, and certainly up near the top, but it's not S rank IMO, it doesn't need as much preparation as other S rank mons by quite a long way.
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This is just untrue. Between its incredible power and great coverage (on both sides) it has very few good checks. If you don't have AV Tornadus-T or RestTalk Gyarados your team is simply weak to at least on variant of Lando-I.
 
Sergeant Spooky said:
This is just untrue. Between its incredible power and great coverage (on both sides) it has very few good checks. If you don't have AV Tornadus-T or RestTalk Gyarados your team is simply weak to at least on variant of Lando-I.
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Not really. Unless scarfed Lando-I is a thing, my HO team is pretty safe with ice punch Lop, HP Ice Raikou, LO Torn-T to pick it off when weakened, and Bisharp who can sucker it to death when weakened. As for scarf and RP sets, I've never seen them, and if I let it set up a RP with a HO team, I don't deserve to win
 
s0me1 b0red said:
Not really. Unless scarfed Lando-I is a thing, my HO team is pretty safe with ice punch Lop, HP Ice Raikou, LO Torn-T to pick it off when weakened, and Bisharp who can sucker it to death when weakened. As for scarf and RP sets, I've never seen them, and if I let it set up a RP with a HO team, I don't deserve to win
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The problem is how are you switching in to landorous with those mons, non of those mons want to take any attack from him meaning you would have to sack a Mon every time it comes in to "deal with it" plus Rp isn't that hard to set up with him on HO since his typing and movepool gives a lot of switches which then he can sweep your team, as he out speeds lopunny, out speeds raikou, unless he's at sucker punch death range.

Saying your team isn't weak to landorous because mons that can't switch in can deal with him is like saying your team isn't weak to lopunny because you have talonflame, yeah these mons will beat them 1 on 1 but they can't get in without dying or coming close.
 
s0me1 b0red said:
Not really. Unless scarfed Lando-I is a thing, my HO team is pretty safe with ice punch Lop, HP Ice Raikou, LO Torn-T to pick it off when weakened, and Bisharp who can sucker it to death when weakened. As for scarf and RP sets, I've never seen them, and if I let it set up a RP with a HO team, I don't deserve to win
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And that is your hyper offense team, lando-I's main niche is destroying balance and stall teams, as alot if Mons on those teams take a crap load from all its moves and can't do much back thanks to its decent bulk and defensive typing. Lando-I should not be staying in a+ because it isn't as good against Ho (although the rp set 6-0s Ho if it sets up safely), lando should be rising to S because of its amazing match up against bulkier teams, which are extremely common in the current meta, as well as the fact that it is still surprisingly not prepared for on the level of Mons like the Latis and keldeo. (yeah, I'm withdrawing on my statement to leave it in a+, I tried it out and it's a fucking monster that has like, 2 switch ins and puts in incredible amounts of work in during most games, and is definitely worth the slot over lando-t in nearly all circumstances ) so I agree with lando - I to s
 
x MAD AXES x you are mssing the point of a HO team. HO doesn't try to switch in from the go into a mon, it intends to keep momentum and if it ever does need to switch, it comes in and either sacks something, or uses a predicted resist/immunity. For instance, if I need to keep Bish for another mon on the opposing team, I'll switch in Torn-T and hope for an earth power/focus blast. There will be times I mispredict and ket KOed by HP Ice or something, but misprediction leading to a KO=/=Being weak to the KOing mon on HO. For Balance/stall teams, you need a switchin to Lando-I, but not so much on HO, as the stuff HO uses don't have the bulk to switchin to neutral hits from most the tier.

Teeny Victory you may have convinced me here, while it has a poor machup with HO it heavily damages alot of balanced mons, has few safe switchins due to it's movepool/possible sets. I'm still not sure it's on the level of the current S ranks, but it seems higher than the rest of A+.
 
Landous, kind like Greninja, can pick it's coverage options to fit the teams needs. This means it is much more diffaculty to prepare for then your letting out to be. As you mentioned, rock polish with smash open your team. Calm mind would kick stall down the stairs, while the standard all out attacking set breaks balance. Landorus can a lot of pokemon into a check mate position with it's vast movepool, and force the user to sack something every time it comes in. Its much more difficult to prepare for then Keldeo and mega Sableye, who are both S rank. I support Landorus promotion to S.
 
This is something I feel strongly about so I'm going to make a post on it. Landorus-I for S Rank.

Landoi is simply amazing in this meta. It can run a lot of different sets and a lot of different coverage moves depending on it's teams need. It's at a nice speed tier just above the base 100s which really comes into handy at times and has the power to tear through teams. By far it's most common set is it's rock polish set, which normally runs modest. The only two mandatory moves on this set are earth power and rock polish with the coverage move being up to you. The true terror in this set is you don't know what it's remaining two moves are going to be. You may think your gliscor is going to be a counter but then they reveal hp ice. You think mega altaria can take a hit and then kill it back? Get hit with a sludge wave. Landoi also has the capability to setup on a lot of pokemon by either forcing them out, or taking advantage of a scarf pokemon like landot. It can also succesfully run a 4 attack set which coverage can hit so much. A calm mind set will also let you get past stall. Landorus-I deserves S because it can run a variety of sets which keeps the opponent guessing along with it's coverage moves and has enough power to break past common walls.
 
this is kind of a controversial nomination, but skarmory deserves to be a- rank. people are always complaining about how passive this thing is, but the metagame is so physically based, skarmory has plenty of chances to use defog and phaze. its typing also allows it to wall non-focus blast landorus and mega diancie too which have rapidly rose in popularity recently. finally, the main reason it should move up is that custap berry just got released so skarmory can be an amazing lead for hyper offense teams that gets hazards up (not like ho has a bad matchup v. stall anyways) and kills itself with brave bird or taunts latios preventing it from using defog. it has been out for a while and it is simply a beautiful and excellent lead for the archetype, and hyper offense really appreciates it in contrast to deoxys-d.

i never really thought magnezone was a- worthy to be honest. it faces competition with magneton which hits a more important and crucial speed tier because it outspeeds starmie for example which has been all over the place recently. as a specs user, it is prediction based at times and unlike other bulky volt switchers, it lacks the typing to do anything outside steel trapping. also the metagame has been shifting away from zone with speedy scizor and most steel-types have a way to threaten it. air balloon is anti-meta, but it lacks the power or speed at times. i know people like that italian ho, but zone continues to be rather useless as our metagame progresses.

also move landorus to s lol
 
There are some nominations I agree with so I'm gonna throw my opinions out there.
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Lando-I to S: I wanted this to happen a few meta shifts ago because its seriously so good. There is pretty much nothing stopping this monstrocity (bar cress) from getting a kill or massive damage off everytime it hits the field. The rp set (which imo is prob the most potent atm) rips up any offensive teams at +2 and it has enough of an offensive presence behind it to make it a bit challenging to be pressured by said offensive teams. The 4-atk and cm sets also are very dangerous and make it more challenging to switch into which leads me to how lando-i possesses an extremely versatile movepool. This allows it to find it's way onto many teams thus becoming a stronger presence in the meta. So basically lando-i to s because its extremely hard to switch into, is fairly easy to throw on a team, and has the potential to demolish any given playstyle.

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Mega Sableye drop to A+: I've always questioned this and from my experiences a lot of other players as well. Let's be honest here 50/125/115 is nothing too impressive in such an offense meta, all of this things bulk comes from its fantastic typing. Speaking of the typing with the presence of strong fairies such as Mdiancie Malt and clef being very common is bad news for Msab. Physical fire types like Zard-x and victini also bust through Msableye since it relies on burning the opposition to remain in control. Msab is also not he go to mon for stall anymore since the rise of fairies+Mgross made Mzor and Mbro very reliable choices to use which gives Msab some competition for it's once uncontested throne on stall. Don't get me wrong Msab is a fantastic mon but it has been way too overhyped lately and tbh the only thing that made it even worthy of s rank material was how it defined a playstyle and the tier itself but other than this it really is not any better than a lot of the A+ mons. A lot of people seem to exaggerate Msab's ability to sweep and make it out to be the second coming of arceus or something when in reality it is not even the most potent set since most Msabs as of recent (and in spl where sableye itself has little usage in the first place) are the knock off more supportive variant where it really can support its team against all playstyles. What I mean by this is that the cm set is extremely matchup based as pretty much all fairies and common stall breakers need to be removed for it to win. Another thing to note is that while magic bounce gives Msab a lot of its prowess and is its main weapon to control the hazard game in practice it really isnt too hard to set up rocks while sab is still alive but that goes down that prediction argument road so I'l stay out of that and leave the topic at that. An important thing I look at when makin a nomination is how the mon is compared to others in said rank. Bsed off that I don't see how Msab is any more of a threat then mons like zard-y or gengar which just rip open balance teams and can provide just as much support for their teams. So Mega Sableye should drop to A+ because most common stall breakers and common threats break through it, it is not the only choice for a stall mega anymore giving it competition, it is not any better than a lot of threats in A+, and it is not a very reliable win con for stall anymore due to said threats appearing in the meta.

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Raikou to A-: I nominated this a few updates ago and I'm glad it's being noticed now:] Raikou is very valuable for offensive and balance team alike with the momentum from volt switch and it's absolutely beautiful base 115 speed tier which allows it to out speed threats such as Mdiancie, Mgross, defensive starmie who tends to run a lil less speed, gengar, and keldeo. In the past raikou has been compared to its Mega brother manectric and was called a "poor man's" Mman because it basically did the same things only a little worse. Now with the added mega competition from oras raikou finds more opportunities to be used on teams due to cost of using any given mega. A little versatility in sets also has separated raikou from manectric a little bit since cm sets and specs sets are becoming popular and obviously Mman cannot run either of those. This post is already a little long so I'l leave it here by saying raise raikou for A- because it can find a lot of opportunities to be used because of the competition for Mman's slot, it can run a few different sets that are increasing in popularity, and raikou's speed tier+typing+coverage makes it a solid mon in the meta atm.
 
Heracross-Mega and Hippowdon are linking to Heracross-Mega page
Chansey and Chesnaught are linking to Chansey
Hawlucha's icon links to Gyarados
Mew's icon links to Latios
Raikou's icon links to Manectric-Mega, so does Skarmory's icon
Swampert-Mega's icon links to Scizor
Terrakion's links to Slowbro
ALL the icons in B Rank link to the wrong places
And I don't really want to go on, but most icons in the ranking are redirecting to weird places and some pokémon names link to wrong places.
 
Yeah you're better off not even bothering using the links in the OP for analysis. They're not that great when some of the analysis might be outdated anyways and unless trc wants to change this I rather just put a link to the analysis subforum itself in the OP. The concept of linking to analysis for each Pokemon seemed silly when it's a thing that changes always based on trends.
 
Not gonna make a massive tldr post on it because everyone knows what it does and what sets it can run, but what would people think about moving Jirachi to A? I certainly see it on the same level as Celebi in viability. It's been really good since the Aegi ban and imo is just getting better, finding its way onto almost every balance/semistall team I make.
 
Was meaning to bring this up earlier on stuff I agree with and stuff I'd like to drop or rise, general thoughts really.

Slate Related:

Landorus: S Not much needs to be said that hasn't already been said. I know when I brought this up like weeks ago a couple people argued that it loses to offensive pressure but I'm not really buying it when offense has the ability to get cleaned by its Rock Polish set. You can read all the arguments before here so not much to say other than rehashing old statements.

M-Sableye: A+ Mega Sableyes centralization has made it in a way that teams are sort of adapting to it but in turn these adaptations have caused sort of a natural shift in the meta-game where they serve other useful purposes as well or are already good and not requiring niche options to beat it. The focus with these threads is always about the now anyways and I feel the way the meta has currently adapted is one factor in why it warrants A+. In all honesty though I wouldn't be surprised if this goes back to S in the future, because I think the main issue in why it's not as strong as it sounds is because people are simply not utilizing its effectiveness to its max potential on hazard stacking minded Balance where it's able to display its maximum potential. A+ seems appropriate for the time being though.

Raikou: I have no strong opinion on this moving up to A- but unlike in the past I'm not totally against this raise either. This ranking to me seems like something that is a case by case thing when I ask individuals where defensive minded players aren't too concerned with this while offensive minded ones seem to emphasize its effectiveness a bit more. I trust the ranking team though so I'm fine with B+ or A-.

Mienshao: Still gauging responses and testing this. I personally don't think it's as bad people made it out to be, even myself at first. I guess the argument can be made that there's an opportunity cost of using this but I do like the momentum grabbing aspect that it has coupled in with the option of Reckless for added power and wall-breaking capabilities or Regenerator for longevity.

Starmie, Hippo, Magnezone: I already stated my response or gave clues for Starmie going to A, Hippo going to A, and Magnezone going to B+. Some of the cases on the previous pages touches upon it so not going to bore you with rehashed point of views.

Non-Slate Related:

M-Aerodactyl: Down to B+ M-Aerodactly got a lot of hype for being an M-Lopunny check among being "anti-meta" for the fast pace nature of offense during the time of Greninja while its ranking and the theory behind its placement sort of lingered on for awhile. I think M-Aerodactly suffers from having a bunch of options but something that people love to throw around "4mss". Its STAB coverage is pretty mediocre and the benefits of said STAB moves is designed to generally handle specific annoyances towards offense, such as M-Lopunny that was previously mentioned. The coverage moves does it give it dimension and Tough Claws is able to amplify the effectiveness of said coverage and optional moves, such as Pursuit trapping along with boosts on Fangs to get past certain checks like Ferro with Fire Fang. However I don't truly believe that M-Aerodactly is superior in viability amongst the likes of other offensive Pokemon such as M-Alakazam and mostly certain not Kyurem-B, who I personally think are both fine in B+ at the moment.

M-Heracross: Down to B/B+ at this point M-Hera is sort of a luxury mega that as of right now I'm not proposing to drop any further because it's actually a legitimate wall-breaker under the right circumstances that isn't too difficult to come by but definitely not warranting a position in the A ranks. Lots of trends such as offensive Fairy types like M-Altaria and M-Diancie, M-Metagross, the Zards, Talonflame are all in the meta in high usage amongst many others that make handling M-Heracross simply an after thought in a majority of team-builds. You could say that it breaks M-Sableye stall, but this I feel is a poor argument when you consider that there are plenty of legitimate wall-breakers to break down these builds amongst the fact as previously stated M-Sableyes best use I feel is on Balance, where an answer or check to M-Hera such as Volcarona or Talonflame for example will be naturally found on these teams. It's one of those things that maintained an A- position based off of a tool that could still be accomplished by others, breaking stall and defensive builds with M-Sableye in them, however I think we can look past the hype now and realize the practicality that this shouldn't be considered an A ranked threat.

M-Tyranitar: Up to B Ok so I guess my logic here is I'm seeing M-Houndoom in B rank right now with this behemoth Mega Tyranitar in the B- ranks riding off of what we considered an obscure Pokemon to justify its current rank yet people forgot how ridiculously hard this thing can actually hit, me being one of them. I seriously don't think M-Houndoom is more effective as a threat than Mega Tyranitar is and I definitely 100% do not think M-Sharpedo should be a subrank higher than Mega Tyranitar. Sure they handle and function a bit differently but the bulk that Mega Tyranitar has along with its coverage option I feel makes it much more of a dangerous threat, slightly more consistent, and a bit more versatile than M-Sharpedo and M-Houndoom. There was a post earlier defending a promo for it to drop but I think that post within itself along with Mega Tyranitars actual capabilities provided a certain amount of support makes me feel like B- is not doing it justice at all.

Probably some spelling issues as I'm pretty tired so excuse those.
 
Changed my mind on some stuff:

Lando-I to S: Agree I was being daft at first, and was only thinking about how it affected my current team. It was pretty easy to sack my lead and revenge it, or predict what move it would use. But that doesn't make a difference to the fact it has:
1. Amazing coverage (although relying on focus miss sucks)
2. The power to beat most of Balance/Stall, and can just be plopped on a team that struggles with one of those to lift that problem a bit.

I had forgotten Keldeo has gone to S when I posted originally, and Lando-I is definately on the level of Keldeo, even if I personally have way more Keld trouble than Lando-I trouble.

Mienshao to D: I remembered a battle I had, albiet low ladder, against a competant player who beat me mostly due to it's use of Fake Out + U-Turn + Regenerator. It's actually a very underated mon who can put alot of work in against offensive and balanced teams, and also has another viable set in it's rekless sets. While far from good, it is definately viable, so deserves a mention on the viability thread.

Before you bring up stuff like Flygon, who jusr got removed, I don't think a frail offensive defogger that has an attack of 100 is viable. Even with 115 speed, wait it has 100! Why was it ever here?
 
As a pretty avid user of Raikou, I agree with it going up from B+ to A-. Raikou sits at a nice Base 115 speed in a tier where Base 110 speed is the ideal benchmark for speed. Electric is a very good offensive typing in this meta as it deals with threats like Keldeo, Azumarill, (Mega) Slowbro, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, (Mega) Gyarados, etc. Raikou faces competition from Mega Manectric who is faster, has Intimidate, and has Overheat to deal with Ferrothorn, but Raikou doesn't use up your Mega slot and the specs set (which is its best set in my opinion although Raikou is forced to be using one move) hits harder than Mega Manectric can stock.

252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 488-576 (123.8 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 366-432 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Raikou also packs Shadow Ball which hits the Lati twins, Gengar, Mega Gallade, Mega Gardevoir, and Celebi (although it won't nail it as hard) for super effective damage. For these reasons, I feel that Raikou should be moved up from B+ to A-.

Hippowdon faces stiff competition with Landorus-Therian for a spot. Aside from packing Stealth Rocks & being a physically bulky Ground type like Hippowdon (Bulky when it needs to be) Landorus-T has Intimidate, U-Turn, Knock Off, and a strong base 145 Attack stat which makes it pretty much a universal utility mon for some teams. These make Landorus seem more favorable, but Hippowdon has a few things that Landorus-T doesn't. Hippowdon can set up sand for Excadrill to wreak havoc (if the team has an Excadrill on it), has access to reliable recovery in Slack Off, can disrupt set up sweepers like Mega Pinsir with Whirlwind, lacks a x4 weakness to Ice, and it avoids giving Bisharp the Defiant boost which can be very important in some cases. Hippowdon is very passive compared to Landorus-T, but that's not to say that it doesn't have its perks. The ability to avoid giving Bisharp the Defiant boost coupled with reliable recovery and meaty 108/118/72 defenses should merit Hippowdon a rise from A- to A.
 
Lando-I: from A+ to S: While I am not too certain in my opinion, I would support Lando-I rising up to S. Firstly, it has plenty of diversity, variety, and move options. Yes, it may not be able to run them all at once, but it can choose which archetype to break through with a quick trip to the teambuilder. It has a numerous amount of sets, from Rock Polish, Calm Mind, Stealth Rock, and just an All-Out Attacker - each can be tailored for the needs of the team. It can run HP Ice to murder Gliscor and Dragonite, Sludge Wave can hit a few select bulky fairies and generally will hit hard on neutral targets in general, Knock Off is a generally spammable move that Lando-I can use to bop the Latis and cripple Chansey - even if it's a bit more obvious of a coverage move that Lando-I may be running. Focus Blast, while shaky, has massive power behind Sheer Force, capable of OHKO'ing Air Balloon Offensive Heatran, and having up to a 50% chance to nail Skarmory after rocks. While I find that I use Psychic less for nailing things weak to it compared to a safety net move against possible switch-ins while finishing pokemon off, it definitely qualifies as extra coverage. Furthermore, it can 2HKO MSableye once mega evolved even if it uses Calm Mind in a 1v1 scenario. Okay, yes, its speed sort of holds it back, but it's a trollish one regardless and is enough to get the job done.

Raikou: from B+ to A-: Raikou has been steadily rising in viability over time, and I believe that it should do so further. If it recall correctly, then Raikou was first considered as a replacement for an offensive bird check - to be used as a poor man's Mega Manectric. Not anymore, as it's superioir bulk barring Intimidate and the ability to hold an item implies otherwise. It can also run a variety of sets to the need of its team. One of the more common ones is AV as a check to quite a few notable special special attackers such as Thundurus, Mega Manectric, Gengar, Starmie, etc. Specs boosts its above average power significantly and can gain momentum while dishing out powerful Volt Switches. Calm Mind is also another option, capable of snowballing through teams. It has a combination of being able to outspeed all the 110 megas, enough power, and versality. Yes, it has its flaws, but that's why we're not nominating it for S.

Starmie: from A- to A: As an advocator of Starmie throughout XY, my opinion hasn't changed. OU is quite short on Rapid Spinners, and one of its Offensive Spinners has to double as a Sand Rush sweeper. As far as I'm concerned, Starmie is the best offensive spinner in the tier, especially with its impressive speed tier. It can outspeed Latis, Gengar, Thundurus, and hit them all back hard. Analytic boosted attacks are practically a Sheer Force boost, and Natural Cure can be used on defensive and offensive sets to absorb status and reliably check Thundy. Not only does it have an offensive spinner set, it can also utilize a defensive set on less offensively oriented teams - although you should not overestimate its bulk. Furthermore, Rapid Spin has quite a few benefits over Defog. It does not activate Defiant, it does not remove your own hazards, it cannot be taunted, can finish off sash pokemon, which I believe is enough to make up for taking Life Orb recoil and making contact.

Hippowdon: from A- to A: Hippowdon is a very viable choice. Yes, he is somewhat passive, and yes, he has competition with Landorus-T. However, Hippowdon does not have a 4x weakness to ice, does not activate Defiant, less susceptible to crits, has a Stealth Rock resistance, phazing, and very importantly, reliable recovery. One of the biggest flaws that defensive Lando-T's have is that they are worn down easily from repeated hits. It has plenty of utility, from setting up hazards, spreading status, and repeatedly walling physical attackers. Some of these are very notable attackers, such as Mega Metagross. Hippowdon definitely deserves a raise.
 
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Flygonial said:
Lando-I: from A+ to S: While I am not too certain in my opinion, I would support Lando-I rising up to S. Firstly, it has plenty of diversity, variety, and move options. Yes, it may not be able to run them all at once, but it can choose which archetype to break through with a quick trip to the teambuilder. It has a numerous amount of sets, from Rock Polish, Calm Mind, Stealth Rock, and just an All-Out Attacker - each can be tailored for the needs of the team. It can run HP Ice to murder Gliscor and Dragonite, Sludge Wave can hit a few select bulky fairies and generally will hit hard on neutral targets in general, Knock Off is a generally spammable move that Lando-I can use to bop the Latis and cripple Chansey - even if it's a bit more obvious of a coverage move that Lando-I may be running. Focus Blast, while shaky, has massive power behind Sheer Force, capable of OHKO'ing Air Balloon Offensive Heatran, and having up to a 50% chance to nail Skarmory after rocks. While I find that I use Psychic less for nailing things weak to it compared to a safety net move against possible switch-ins while finishing pokemon off, it definitely qualifies as extra coverage. Furthermore, it can 2HKO MSableye once mega evolved even if it uses Calm Mind in a 1v1 scenario. Okay, yes, its speed sort of holds it back, but it's a trollish one regardless and is enough to get the job done.
Raikou: from B+ to A-: Raikou has been steadily rising in viability over time, and I believe that it should do so further. If it recall correctly, then Raikou was first considered as a replacement for an offensive bird check - to be used as a poor man's Mega Manectric. Not anymore, as it's superioir bulk barring Intimidate and the ability to hold an item implies otherwise. It can also run a variety of sets to the need of its team. One of the more common ones is AV as a check to quite a few notable special special attackers such as Thundurus, Mega Manectric, Gengar, Starmie, etc. Specs boosts its above average power significantly and can gain momentum while dishing out powerful Volt Switches. Calm Mind is also another option, capable of snowballing through teams. It has a combination of being able to outspeed all the 110 megas, enough power, and versality. Yes, it has its flaws, but that's why we're not nominating it for S.
Starmie: from A- to A: As an advocator of Starmie throughout XY, my opinion hasn't changed. OU is quite short on Rapid Spinners, and one of its Offensive Spinners has to double as a Sand Rush sweeper. As far as I'm concerned, Starmie is the best offensive spinner in the tier, especially with its impressive speed tier. It can outspeed Latis, Gengar, Thundurus, and hit them all back hard. Analytic boosted attacks are practically a Sheer Force boost, and Natural Cure can be used on defensive and offensive sets to absorb status and reliably check Thundy. Not only does it have an offensive spinner set, it can also utilize a defensive set on less offensively oriented teams - although you should not overestimate its bulk. Furthermore, Rapid Spin has quite a few benefits over Defog. It does not activate Defiant, it does not remove your own hazards, it cannot be taunted, can finish off sash pokemon, which I believe is enough to make up for taking Life Orb recoil and making contact.

Hippowdon: from A- to A: Hippowdon is a very viable choice. Yes, he is somewhat passive, and yes, he has competition with Landorus-T. However, Hippowdon does not have a 4x weakness to ice, does not activate Defiant, less susceptible to crits, has a Stealth Rock resistance, phazing, and very importantly, reliable recovery. One of the biggest flaws that defensive Lando-T's have is that they are worn down easily from repeated hits. It has plenty of utility, from setting up hazards, spreading status, and repeatedly walling physical attackers. Some of these are very notable attackers, such as Mega Metagross. Just like Starmie, Hippowdon definitely deserves the rise.
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I agree with most to all of what you've said, except Starmie. I honestly do think he can hit hard and is very powerful, but he's one of the defencivley weakest Glass cannons. Though he has a very large moveset and versitility, he has no priority since special attackers never have good priority. He doesn't have that much capability with choice-lock items, and all around suffers from Bisharp or any good Sucker punch Pokemon. Choice Scarfed Pokemon will usually outspeed and kill it since, as I've said, doesn't have good or usable priority. Starmie is weak to a lot of the metagame and should stay where it is.
 
TrollinSableye said:
I agree with most to all of what you've said, except Starmie. I honestly do think he can hit hard and is very powerful, but he's one of the defencivley weakest Glass cannons. Though he has a very large moveset and versitility, he has no priority since special attackers never have good priority. He doesn't have that much capability with choice-lock items, and all around suffers from Bisharp or any good Sucker punch Pokemon. Choice Scarfed Pokemon will usually outspeed and kill it since, as I've said, doesn't have good or usable priority. Starmie is weak to a lot of the metagame and should stay where it is.
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I'll be honest, I was on the fence on my decision of Starmie, and I should have clarified that. In the end, bias just took over.
 
I was on the fence about Starmie too but no priority is kind of a weird reason when it's really fast. Yeah, choice scarfers revenge kill a lot of shit. Yes Bisharp is a problem, but at least you don't give it a defiant boost like the Latis, and Hydro Pump is actually capable of OHKOing it if it goes for a Knock Off (which many do, expecting a switch).

Ultimately I decided that I agree with Starmie's move up because it's the best spinner IMO since Exca is sorta slow outside of sand and its Choice Scarf set is sorta shitty in a lot of ways. Also LO Analytic hits pretty damn hard and Starmie has a nice movepool. Although it has a bit of 4MSS it's great on HO, bulky offense and balance alike, that speed tier is just really legit. Natural Cure makes the less offensive versions of Starmie one of the best Keldeo counters too
 
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