Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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Iron Caliber said:
Even if it loses Refrigerate STAB Hyper Voice, Auto-hit Blizzard still technically hits harder, so that's not an issue. Not to mention it already has good coverage with Earth Power and Thunderbolt. It'll be interesting to see what Amaura does, actually. It's already a decent Scarfer, and the ability to negate sun (which is apparently an issue) is actually going to be a big bonus.
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Technically, Hyper Voice does hit harder, although in most cases (where it's not already an OHKO either way) they have completely identical damage.

Against Fletchling, for example, it's easier to see.

220+ SpA Refrigerate Amaura Hyper Voice vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 38-48 (165.2 - 208.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

220+ SpA Amaura Blizzard vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 36-44 (156.5 - 191.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is because of an oddity in the damage calculation formula, which is such:

[(2*Level+10)/250*(Attack/Defense)*Base Power+2]*Modifier

The first two terms inside the brackets are unimportant, as they don't vary. The base power, however, does, as does the multiplier.

Because the modifier is outside the brackets, it also multiplies the +2, which does give a slight advantage to modifiers. This is compounded by the issue that 1.3*90 is 117, as opposed to Blizzard's 110.

This is similar to how Murkrow's Hidden Power Grass could 2HKO chinchou while Dark Pulse could not, back in the KrowTite era.

While Snow Warning will probably see some use, especially against teams weak to weather, Hyper Voice's ability to go through substitute is very valuable as well.

EDIT: Since it was brought up in the smogcast, I thought I'd demonstrate some of the effects of a higher level on damage (isolating all else). For this, I used two Celebi, one at level 100 and the other at level 50. I gave both Tackle, and then customized the level 100 to have an identical HP, attack, and defense stat, by making it have base 17 HP (175 HP) and base 57 with 1 IV attack and defense (120 Atk/Def). I then pitted their tackles against each other (note that level is the only different quantity).

Level 100 on 50:

0 Atk Celebi Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 37-44 (21.1 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

Level 50 on 100:

0 Atk Celebi Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 20-24 (11.4 - 13.7%) -- possible 8HKO

That's almost doubled damage, as you would expect from the formula. This is probably for later, as opposition for increasing the level cap of LC as discussed in the Smogcast.
 
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I don't think that Snover will become irrelevant with Amaura getting Snow Warning. Snover still has its Grass-typing, which lets it switch in on and force out Water-types, which Amaura can only revenge kill, and even then I'm not sure Amaura can OHKO most of them.
 
Sub is extremely uncommon and the extra hail damage tacked onto blizzard helps itself and its teammates. Specifically focus sash abra as it can now 2hko spritzee and porygon with Sr up.
 
That clarification was very interesting to read, thank you Merritt . I still feel like the added utility of residual hail damage helps out a lot, especially with the right support. I agree with kingmidas too about Substitute's usage. I only see it very rarely, and the pokemon I see it on have bad matchups against Amaura anyways, like Cottonee.
 
I finished laddering and the only things that really got my attention are Mienfoo, Pawniard and Berry Juice.

Mienfoo: This pokemon is usually around for the bulk of the game and can pretty much be added to any team. Access to Knock Off is great as this pokemon usually draws in bulkier pokemon to be switched in. Once Eviolites are knocked off, the pokemon can begin to High Jump Kick/Drain Punch spam and really lay some heavy damage. If a Fighting resist pokemon is on the enemy team, this can be predicted and Mienfoo can Knock Off and/or U-Turn out, whilst maintaining momentum and gaining HP due to its ability Regenerator. Other sets carry Fake Out which are very useful against Sash Abra and SturdySmash pokemon, making them susceptible to Priority (namely by Pawniard). However, as the game draws out, Mienfoo usually begins to become a pokemon that is just waiting to be sacked (dependent on set), meaning it isn't as threatening throughout the entire bulk of the game, but still an annoyance. This is mainly because Mienfoo would have lost its Eviolite by then and have suffered damage already. Overall, it's still highly threatening and pretty troublesome to cripple/kill.

Pawniard: After laying down some hazards, Pawniard has a field day with Sucker Punch shenanigans. This pokemon alone can clutch so many wins when reserved late game after hazards and your other five pokemon have been laying damage into the enemy team. I believe the ease to sweep with this pokemon is a potential problem, as it's hard to maintain your checks to survive a +2 Sucker Punch (assuming Pawniard has SD'd, and in reality, is really easy to do). With that said, checks/counters are of course existing, such as Timburr and Ponyta, though this does not mean Pawniard still isn't a major threat.

Berry Juice: I find this item very cheap because it can be used for SmashSturdy/Belly Drum pokemon with ease, and in all honesty, should probably be looked at. This can ruin teams cleanly in late game and essentially gives the pokemon two focus sashes. You could argue some pokemon have legit use for it such as Archen, though they can enjoy the Oran Berry if this ever gets banned. Another argument could be that "it's bound to get Knock Off'd", but that isn't good enough. However, priority moves/focus sashes against these things can help (focus sash is dependent if multi hitting move), as well as hazards being a thing to break the sturdy ability, though it still is pretty dangerous.

Overall, I think Mienfoo, Pawniard and Berry Juice are deserving of a discussion so more people can comment and offer their thoughts in a concise manner.
 
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Yeah agreeing with the tanned one above on Berry Juice and Pawniard, not sure about Mienfoo as I feel it's simply a very good and meta defining pokemon, much like Landorus-Therian in OU, but not broken.

Pawniard is ridiculously easy to abuse alongside something like a Dwebble lead, stacking early hazards and then preventing their removal via Pawniard, paired with a spinblocker this puts tremendous pressure on any team or playstyle. It doesn't help that(in my limited knowledge of the tier) I'm yet to find a Defog user that can sufficiently dissuade Pawniard from switching in and be viable in other matchups too meaning esentially you get overwhelmed by the playstyle.

Berry Juice is ridiculously catch all outside of Sturdy mons, who obviously make the best use of it but it's just so easy to put this item on anything with recognisable bulk and say, oh this has essentially got 2 lives now. This doesn't even cover the multitude of Sturdy pokemon that get access to it, such as hazard stacking or Shell Smash Dwebble, DD Tyrunt, Magnemite, Onix. It just becomes ridiculously easy to abuse, and is just too much for the metagame as it forces you to carry checks for all of these threats at +2 or whatever, or at least to have a way of preventing them getting to +2, which in my eyes, is unreasonable for a lot of teams.

On a positive note though, first time I've played LC in a while, had a lot of fun, speed ties are irksome as always but laddering was enjoyable and will definitely play more in future. :D
 
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Freeroamer said:
Berry Juice is ridiculously catch all outside of Sturdy mons, who obviously make the best use of it but it's just so easy to put this item on anything with recognisable bulk and say, oh this has essentially got 2 lives now. This doesn't even cover the multitude of Sturdy pokemon that get access to it, such as hazard stacking or Shell Smash Dwebble, DD Tyrunt, Magnemite, Onix. It just becomes ridiculously easy to abuse, and is uncompetitive for the metagame as it forces you to carry checks for all of these threats at +2 or whatever, or at least to have a way of preventing them getting to +2, which in my eyes, is unreasonable for a lot of teams.
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Berry Juice is not uncompetitive. Something that is uncompetitive is defined as "factors or methods that cause the result of the match to be determined on factors independent of either players' choices." Berry Juice can be forcibly activated by the player using it, and SturdyJuice can easily be prepared for in teambuilding, through the use of hazards, or simply played around by using a weak attack and then a stronger attack, so it is not uncompetitive. If Berry Juice were to be suspected, it would not be a question of uncompetitiveness, it would merely be a question of brokenness. In this metagame, I would say that Berry Juice is not broken. In order to ban an item, it would have to be broken on (usually) all users of it, which is simply not the case. Pokemon such as Chinchou and Archen utilize Berry Juice, and they are perfectly healthy in the metagame, and can easily run other items viably.
 
Kavatika said:
Berry Juice is not uncompetitive. Something that is uncompetitive is defined as "factors or methods that cause the result of the match to be determined on factors independent of either players' choices." Berry Juice can be forcibly activated by the player using it, and SturdyJuice can easily be prepared for in teambuilding, through the use of hazards, or simply played around by using a weak attack and then a stronger attack, so it is not uncompetitive. If Berry Juice were to be suspected, it would not be a question of uncompetitiveness, it would merely be a question of brokenness. In this metagame, I would say that Berry Juice is not broken. In order to ban an item, it would have to be broken on (usually) all users of it, which is simply not the case. Pokemon such as Chinchou and Archen utilize Berry Juice, and they are perfectly healthy in the metagame, and can easily run other items viably.
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Yeah a very valid point, bad wording on my part, will edit it to better reflect my argument.
 
Although it has its valid points, I don't really agree with the Pawniard nomination. The notion that Pawniard + hazard stacking is significantly more potent than other playstyles is something I feel is blatantly false, as I consider it no better than other high quality archetypes like Sun or various forms of bulky offense. Suicide hazard setters die off very early in the match given their role, leaving them open to be spun or defogged; it's important to note that Pawniard doesn't block Defog, meaning that after taking out the suicide lead, you can go ahead and sack the defogger for what is essentially a one for one if you wish. There's also the fact that on top of not only being unable to block but often outright losing to Rapid Spinners, switching Pawniard in on the Defogger is very risky; Pawniard always loses to Archen if Pawniard comes in on Earthquake, as Eviolite variants are unable to OHKO Archen with Sucker Punch and other variants are OHKOed by Earthquake, and even Vullaby is absolutely capable of running HP Fighting or Heat Wave if necessary, which also hits very important threats in Ferroseed and Magnemite (usually over Flying-type STAB for Defog Vullaby). Bulky hazard setters aren't any more notable in this case because the most prominent of these tend to have less than impressive synergy with Pawniard. There are many ways to get around hazard stacking strategies, and Pawniard doesn't do all that much to prevent this.
As a win condition, Pawniard definitely ranks among the best, but probably not the very best, and almost certainly not banworthy solely for its sweeping capabilities. Against offensive teams, it relies on the shaky Sucker Punch to beat the very many faster threats; this is quite problematic due to how many of these Pokemon carry Substitute or other non-attacking moves like Sleep Powder, including but not limited to Gastly, Abra, and Bellsprout. There is also the issue of a lack of set-up opportunities for Pawniard against offensive teams due to its easily exploitable double Fighting-type weakness for random coverage moves, as well as the ubiquity of Fighting-types. Pawniard is often deemed one of the most effective wall-breakers around, but it's incredibly easy to fit multiple checks to Pawniard with little to no drawbacks on defensive teams; almost every team should have a Fighting-type and defensive teams are no exception, and the likes of Ponyta and Larvesta can deter Pawniard from even attacking. Pawniard is of course still a top threat, but I wouldn't consider it any scarier as a sweeper than Fletchling or Omanyte, and probably even less than Timburr.

I am much more strongly opposed to a Berry Juice ban. Simply put, it doesn't come anywhere close to giving a second life to anything that it's stuck on; in part, this is because there are some extremely powerful attackers available and very viable in LC, and running Berry Juice over Eviolite drastically increases the risk of a Pokemon just outright getting KOed before it can accomplish anything. Pokemon that have recognizable bulk are usually (not always; there are some exceptions) better off running Eviolite, which is much, much more catch-all than Berry Juice, especially if they have access to reliable recovery, because now they are able to survive key OHKOes and hit back hard, as well as more easily withstand Knock Off and better take advantage of healing moves, be it from their own use or from Wish support. Think of it this way: if you have a team with six Berry Juice users, it's probably a niche Hyper Offense team that's based around spamming a specific strategy that will probably be viewed as a gimmick because you need to drastically outplay any opponent that carries a more "standard" team if you are to have a chance of winning; if you have a team with six Eviolite users, you have just another bulky team. (If you have a team with six Life Orb or Choice Scarf users, you have a gen four team.)
Belly Drum and Sturdyjuice users are ridiculously easy to play around. The sheer amount of external support they need to even come close to pulling their weight against a half-decent team means that often, entire teams have to be dedicated to supporting them, rendering them no better than other prominent set-up sweepers. To be able to sweep with Zigzagoon, for example, you need a pursuit trapper that is able to take on Gastly and Abra, hazard setters for Zigzagoon to obtain key KOs, something to lure in and take out the various Steel-types that are able to stop Zigzagoon's sweep, and often a Memento user, on top of numerous slots dedicated to prevent you from simply being swept by the opposing team's sweeper while you're setting up the Zigzagoon sweep. That's hardly a case of Berry Juice being broken.
For the record, I'm not calling for an Eviolite ban because even though the reasoning that object A keeping object B in check as a reason to not ban object A is generally frowned upon, I feel that it is relevant in this case because Eviolite is probably the only thing keeping the tier from devolving into the all-out sweeper spam we have in DPP, thus allowing the metagame to be significantly more versatile and competitive than it otherwise would be.
 
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As stated before any good player will keep hazards on the field and as for checks go every other team has mienfoo and after its gone its a field day for pawn
 
Senpai D.M said:
You implied it was simple to get hazards off the field
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It shouldn't be too hard for any good player. Either way, the point still stands that Pawniard is not broken. If it were broken, it would not be for sweeping capabilities. The biggest contributing factor would be its wallbreaking prowess. I think Levi's post sums up how I feel (and a lot of other users) about Pawniard.
 
Senpai D.M said:
You implied it was simple to get hazards off the field
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Watched the replay, he never even tried to defog, he just sacked vullaby, not to mention you crit the pawn. But,I digress, you yourself run no way of getting rid of hazards and spinners easily get off it so the bias is evident
 
With the few things I've seen discussed I'll just drop my 2 cents.

Pawn- yeah it's stupidly good, but it's not hard to tack on one of the things boo836 said to beat it. No need to ban it, regardless of how good it can be.

Foo- Mienfoo defines the meta. It can run a plethora of sets, with bulky foo, Scarf, Fast attacker, BP, SD, etc etc. However, despite the slappability of the pokemon, is it really broken? No. Mienfoo does his job incredibly well a large amount of the times, but this does not make it broken.

Sprout- The thing can abuse the sun like no one's business. Hits like a truck, really fast, but it relies so heavily on the sun. QuoteCS said it nicely in the smogcast for those talking about Sprout and Tangela. "It's like comparing a brick wall to a sheet of paper." Tangela hit harder, was faster, bulkier, better coverage. Bellsprout is very good, but it's not ban-worthy.

Baton Pass- long chains get shit on by tauntfoo, haze, clear smog, whirlwind, roar zzzzzz Oh I'm typing right sorry. Long ass chains are tedious if you're not prepared for them, but it's quite easy to if you come prepared. Also, for people who want it reduced to 3 or 1 pokemon, Torchic Quickpass is the most lethal version of baton pass and I highly doubt it's gonna be banned so.

Chou switching on Chou- ban it lmao.

Trappers- Theyre both good at doing what they do, which is eliminating one to two pokemon if needed to let your wincon sweep. Diglett has a lot of utility in priority (SPunch), Memento, Stealth Rock. The problem is that either A its not hitting hard enough BC sash aka no Band or Orb, or B its not living shit BC no sash. Gothita pretty much needs scarf and that's super easy to abuse with Agiligon or SD Pawn. They're both amazing, but not BanWorthy.

Fletch- it has way too many checks to be banned. Surprised it was suspected the first time but it can avoid the block again I believe.

Sturdy + Berry Juice- very good combination, but it is very easy to play around. Hazards, the ever present knock off, and I'm p sure LO Drilbur OHKOs everything that uses this combination so.

Magic Guard + Focus Sash- yes Abra is probably the best revenger in the tier but honestly it doesn't need a ban. Abra is frail as shit and hell just sac your gunk and use VWave and not its not as threatening.

Snivy- look all you fuckbois that said this thing is broken stop entoxicating the thread and room just bc you started playing the tier for these suspects lmao

Idk if I missed anything but TL;DR Our meta is crazy balanced right now. Boring? Yes. Broken? No.

Also yes I do think we should've looked into retesting shit but I doubt that's happening so.
 
I just wanted to clarify that in my post, I never meant ban both without hesitation, they're just things that I thought were worth a look at, sorry if I gave the wrong impression, I'd only just woken up when I wrote my initial post so probs wasn't working at 100%, my bad. :x
 
I haven't gotten reqs yet, but I plan to before the end of tonight.

I'm not a skilled LC veteran by any means, but I've been playing pretty much all through Gen 6 (except the Missy era). All of the suspects we've banned so far were incredibly obvious to ban, because they had an undeniably gigantic impact on the metagame, and were objectively broken. Nowadays, I'm not seeing that on any Pokemon. Someone asked me in the Showdown chatroom the other day if I saw any Pokemon in team preview and went "ugh, it's X." And I responded as any player should: of course I do. No matter how well-built your team is you will have weaknesses. Certain Pokemon will shit on you if you don't handle them correctly. But that doesn't make them broken, by any means. The S-rank mons--Pawn and Foo--never trigger that initial "ugh" in team preview, because the meta has adapted over all this time to give them more than enough checks and counters so that you can be prepared for them without limiting teambuilding.

Foo is annoying throughout all stages of the game, and that's where its power comes from. It has an impact in the match if you let it have its way, but the key to beating it is to let it run out of options, or to put the opponent into a situation where they have to sack Foo early, or make it so that Foo is the last mon alive. Foo's influence is strictly around synergizing with the entirety of a person's team; if it dies early, that synergy is gone. If you make it hard to switch Foo in, that synergy is gone. Without Eviolite, it doesn't have a ton of bulk. In fact, it loses 1v1 to other Fighting-types such as Timburr and Pancham (with or without Eviolite) because it has inferior bulk. Everyone has Knock Off nowadays, and getting one extra Knock Off user isn't broken either. Just as how the meta and the players have become comfortable with having Eviolite bulk, we've also adjusted to what it's like to not have the Eviolite bulk, and how to gauge our team's limits with or without the item. Knocking off an item =/= crippling that Pokemon, in my opinion. When the Knock Off opportunities are gone, the move is honestly very weak, barring its SE damage on Ghost and Psychic types. Mienfoo has multiple sets it can run, with Taunt or Fake Out or HJK or whatever, but that doesn't make it so unpredictable that it's out of control. It can only be a dedicated physical attacker, so the checks for all of its sets are pretty standardized.

Pawn is a slightly different story, but it also isn't broken. Unlike Foo, whose checks are limited to a small group of Pokemon that can switch in reliably, I feel that Pawn has so many checks that it has a hard time switching in at all, despite having incredible power when it gets to set up. Sure, there's the Defog boosting your attack due to Defiant, but what if the other team doesn't have Defog? Where's your switch opportunity? Dark/Steel has a lot of weaknesses, and it has pseudo-weaknesses to anything that deals neutral damage (looking at you, Scald) or anything that resists its STABs (Other Steels, anyone?). Eviolite can only go so far. The only way you're reliably getting Pawn in without taking too much damage is via a slow VoltTurn or the aforementioned Defog/Intimidate dream (and most Intimidators beat Pawn anyways, except for like Snubbull). Hazard setting is definitely a threat when Pawn is around, but that doesn't make it broken either, whether it's due to the huge amount of hazard removers or Pokemon that can switch in that can take them all and not care as well as force Pawn out (see: any Fighting type). Pawn is a huge threat, but never on its own. Its power comes from the synergy it gets with other Pokemon, but all of that power is put into the late game rather than throughout the game, like Foo does.

Baton Pass is gimmicky and any random missed or misplayed turn, crit, Taunt, Haze, Roar, etc. instantly loses the game for them. It doesn't matter when it happens or which Pokemon it happens against, one broken link kills the whole chain, and when you've lost that much progress there's no way to get your precious boosts back up before you lose.

People have talked too much about SturdyJuice already. There's really nothing for me to add.
 
OK, I'm going to be covering Baton Pass. It's Baton PAss and does not warrant a clause.

In all seriousness, I implore all of you to actually ladder with Baton Pass. If you truly believe that it is broken and full pass needs a ban, then you need to play it yourself.

This might not be the most relevant idea, but I learn by experience. In other games, if I don't know how to beat something, I use it myself. I then try to find what people are doing to beat me, then I try to emulate that. Baton Pass should have the same basic principle. You should not be attempting to ban baton pass if you have never played it and have only played against it. As many as people have said before me, it is a hax reliant playstyle that can and will lose very hard things like Taunt, Roar, Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, Encore, and Cottonee in general.

While Baton Pass might have its set of weaknesses, it does have definitive characteristics; that when played correctly will dominate. There still is a way to play around things like Encore and Taunt. This is what makes the people that claim, Baton Pass is bad because it is easy to shut down, so incorrect on so many levels. There is still another person playing on the other side of the screen. They will most likely know if you are using a move that will stop the chain and will do everything in their power to stop you. While it might appear that you already won the game because your Hippopotas knows Whirlwind, the other teams Mienfoo might be carrying Taunt, eliminating your "counter" and putting a serious hole in your plan.

While Baton Pass does have counterplay, it is not always the most reliable counterplay. And that should be taken into consideration. That being said it's still not broken. When you see a Baton Pass team, even if you have no dedicated checks or ways to beat it, this does not mean you cannot win. Crits still exist, Knock Off is omnipresent, and misplays happen.
 
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