I'm not getting into this whole discussion because its rather farfetched that people are using the definitions of broken/centralized and shit to the point, when they are created upon the needs of level 100 tiers, and this is a much different case clearly as rayjay put it. (not pro ban mienfoo though ew) Max attack mienfoo is a shitty set that basically ruins your already average bulk, in return for hitting resists for a little more damage with your stabs and poison jab only beats spritzee and cottonee, snubbull and all its other checks still win easily.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
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I beg to differ. Max attack mienfoo has a particularity that it's more stable with and without eviolite, so it's more consistent in the endgame. Sure it doesn't resist some things (like fletch acro for instance), but it can keep it's offensive use even without eviolite, and also as i said before, even bluffing it is successful because people don't risk things until they know for sure. People run drilbur with eviolite with less than 12 defense, and mienfoo on the other hand, has recovery. Might not be FoTM mienfoo for the current meta, but it's good, nonetheless, and can surprise you.
Unless you run several checks for mienfoo at the same time? Obviously if spritzee is your mienfoo counter, you'll use it the second time he switches in. And you'll just know he has poison jab until you checked it, which requires either running protect on things like pawniard, or you'll just know it when spritzee eats it.
so basically what you just said was sacrifice a pretty much crucial moveslot on pawniard, or slow magnemite etc to determine whether or not your check can beat it or not. seems kind of redundant. i doubt anyone in the right mind would stay in mienfoo v spritzee regardless because mienfoo doesnt want to get raped for damage @_@
I brought Grimer up because it hard counters Mienfoo. If the graph and you were accurate, it should be rising in usage with Mienfoo. Since Mienfoo doesn't draw up otherwise not viable Pokemon, the causal connection you're asserting to specific usage of Pokemon is made on a false premise.
So we are to measure every Pokemon by a set with all potential moves and EVs, abilities, and items? That's bullshit and you know it. There are countless Pokemon who are MORE threatening than that in this delusional metagame with FAR less viability than Mienfoo in the real metagame. Take Cranidos for example. It can run LO or Scarf or Sash and probably 1-2HKO the entire Metagame with a set of 4 moves. Lol even like Riolu is more threatening than Mienfoo when you consider all of the coverage moves it has along with SD, Sub, Protect and its Speed + bulk possible.
While it's fun to think about, is an absurd concept and has no place in this discussion.
Not only that, but you ignored what I said. You need to argue that those moves don't have negative enough drawbacks that take away from the brokenness that Mienfoo gives otherwise your argument will remain unreasonable (and frankly, if we're being honest, quite absurd.)
For example, take what I said. Slow bulkyfoo takes attacks like Acrobatics and Psychic better than fast foo, but it's drawbacks stop it from being broken because it can't Taunt stuff and is outsped by Pawniard. You can't ignore the setbacks of viability that each lack of EV, move, and item give Mienfoo.
Furthermore, it's not Gligar where the mistake ends the game. If you mistake the fast one for the slow one, you get Taunted or you scout to check because Mienfoo is really easy to switch into and out of. However, with Gligar if you scout and it Substitutes you lose.
That's completely contradictory to your claim above, but I'll address it anyway.
236 Atk Mienfoo is not a real thing unless it's an offensive variant which is not able to do any of other of the Mienfoo things. However, in order for it to work and since you will lack bulk or speed, you have severe limitations on what you can switch into and force out. Then, you need to Knock Off. Once you Knock Off Spritzee or tank an attack, your opponent will know your Attack EVs. Then you need to switch out, and Spritzee can Wish pass to something. Then you also don't even KO it and it can switch out and recover on something else while taking a non STAB weak Poison Jab.
You are fighting an uphill battle at best and you haven't gained any ground.
I'm really gonna (re)second this look at knock off. I posted about it earlier and nobody really replied, so i'll repost it again in the hide. I feel like maybe I was ignored a little (new user, no blame) but the way LC works just makes Knock Off worthy of a suspect.
This might seem a bit far fetched, but I really think we should discuss Knock Off. Keep in mind that atm I am slightly inclined to ban, so I'll list reasons to and reasons not to, and please, please be sure to add pros and cons I might miss:
Reasons to ban
Thoughts?
Reasons to ban
- Knock Off is an incredibly versatile move, finding its way onto offensive mons such as Pawn and basically any Fighting-type as STAB or coverage and also onto such defensive mons as Ferro and Lickitung (not that good atm but whatevs).
- The widespread presence of Knock Off's Dark coverage severely hurts the viablity of several mons, mainly most Psychic types not named Abra and any non-offensive Ghost types. One large reason for Trubbish's drop (not the only one, mind you) was the introduction of Pancham's Mold Breaker Knock Off.
- In many situations, it may be smarter to go for a Knock Off on an obvious switch in than to go for an appropriate switch. For example (and this may be a bad play, blame me) I run ScarfPawn and Fletchling on a Ziggy team. Pawniard makes its way in against something it can beat (Spritzee or somethin) and the other player has a clear switch to their Fighting type, generally Foo. Rather than switch to Fletchling, I would Knock Off the incoming Foo, possibly even sack Pawn if I could, and then bring in Fletch, either killing Foo, getting a SD, or U-turning for momentum. In this case, hitting Foo with a not effective coverage move is, perhaps, the better play.
- This one isn't such a concrete point, but the fact that so much of LC revolves around Fighting types may be because of the super good coverage that Fighting/Dark has. Banning Knock Off could lead to a dip in Fighting usage (not by much because fighting is still good in this meta) and a rise in Psychic/Ghost types like Slowbro, Solosis, or even Pumpkaboo, who already sees solid usage.
- Knock Off is only a 97.5 BP move on the first hit, and becomes a mere 65 BP move after. This leads such things as ScarfPawn to have somewhat underwhelming power attacking a mon that's already been Knocked Off.
- It isn't too hard to fit a Knock Off absorber like Fletch, Fighting types, Fairies, Sticky Holders, etc etc etc onto a team. These mons often synergize well and are very effective members of a team, so you'll probably already have one on your team anyways.
- In reality, predicting a Knock Off isn't too hard. Sometimes it's even blatantly obvious.
- Removing Knock Off would remove valuable coverage for several very good mons, such as most Fighting types, Vullaby, and especially Pawniard.
- Does the presence of Knock Off harm the meta more than banning it would? If so, we would ban.
- Does the distribution of Knock Off contribute too much to the prevalence of such powerful mons as Foo and Pawn, or are other traits more significant? If Knock Off isn't a significant factor in the power of those mons, we would not ban
- LC mons are, on average, more dependent on items than their upper tier counterparts, especially to add bulk. Would that reliance on items lead to a power shift if Knock Off were to be banned? If so, we would not ban.
Thoughts?
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I'm about to link you a thread, but keep this in mind:
1) the metas are slightly different (missy was not yet banned)
2) po users ban policy is different ("for fun")
3) they eventually changed completely to follow Smogon's LC.
With that in mind I think many arguments are made in this thread and lots of them are by me.
In a nutshell, Knock Off gives us a tool to keep certain Pokemon in check. It makes Gen 6 not the shitfest Gen 5 was (I know some people like that metagame but its undeniably annoying to deal with Eviolite w/e powerful + new users of Knock Off). It forces us to make smarter switch-ins and use more creative Pokemon like Trubbish.
My problem with this is: nothing is stopping you from looking at it right now. Nominating is saying "we want council to potentially ban this" not "let's take a closer look". There is no closer look to be taken than the months of use and in-depth discussion that it's had already.
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Alright I'm not coming through with the GOAT post but after about 70 battles for Reqs and a few more afterwards (got to about 2200) I can safely say nothing deserves a ban. Foo does everything pretty freaking well but that's about it. Pawn got that powerful KOff and priority but literally pack a fighting type (which if your team doesn't have one I hiiiiiiiighly reccommend rebuilding) iirc whoever brought up Sprout was jk but I guess I'll addreess the fact it needs a good amount of support and that SD set has to go mixed so lmao. BP is pretty matchup based (you got tauntfoo, strong as heck attacks, prankster encore, Phazing you should be good. Apparently VoltTurn does a good job against it but idk.) Chou switching on chou is clearly dumb BC you gotta make the crisp double to Diglett if real. Speaking of the mole, trappers are probably the "most likely to be suspected" if anything is, but you just gotta play around it (Diglett dies if you throw your Pokeball too hard upon sending it out, and Goth usually ends up being setup) uhm... Items I guess. Eviolite is obviously a mainstay and literally if you ban it you destroy any aspect of bulk in LC. Berry Juice is also a mainstay. that insta recovery isn't all that when the biggest move in the game removed it completely. I guess complexes now. Sash + Magic Guard gets infuriating but what can you do. Just whittle away or trap Abra with pursuit. Sturdy + Berry Juice isn't hard to beat if you come with common sense.
TL;DR- nothing should be suspected, should it happen it might be trappers. If it comes down to it, odds are nothing will be banned.
TL;DR- nothing should be suspected, should it happen it might be trappers. If it comes down to it, odds are nothing will be banned.
just wanna say real quick, I've been taking a look at Mienfoo about once every three games. To be a bit less sarcastic, I'm well aware of what Mienfoo does and how it functions in the tier. I was referring to the generally more specific, intense evaluation a suspect test provides. I also believe from those evaluations that Foo warrants a suspect.
The majority of the arguments I read on that thread seemed to deal with Berry Juice's overt brokenness in a Knock Off-less tier, which might highlight Berry Juice as opposed to Knock Off. If there are some arguments I missed (it was pretty quick, I'm doing ap euro) I really would like to see them.
Cheek Pouch said something above that I thought was interesting:
whether that's the biggest move in LC or even in the game, idk. But doesn't KO Abra being at least semiviable kinda set off some lights? Once again, the incredible utility is a bit of an alarm bell.Cheek Pouch said:
I really would like to see the specific arguments you were probably thinking of, though
Could you elaborate on what that is and what's stopping us from doing it here, now? Because it's pretty clear to me that it's an illusion.
I outlined them for you in my edit, but I'll just put it here:
In a nutshell, Knock Off gives us a tool to keep certain Pokemon in check. It makes Gen 6 not the shitfest Gen 5 was (I know some people like that metagame but its undeniably annoying to deal with Eviolite w/e powerful + new users of Knock Off). It forces us to make smarter switch-ins and use more creative Pokemon like Trubbish.
To say it's too powerful is an exaggeration - versus many Pokemon an item doesn't stop its primary jobs and its easy to just keep a Pokemon to tank Knock Offs for you.
I don't see anything in this metagame that is blatantly broken. Mienfoo is a Pokemon that is REALLY good and very splashable onto many teams, but it has many, many solid checks that are very viable in this metagame (Spritzee, Croagunk, Berry Juice Archen, Cottonee, Trubbish, Scarf Gothita after a bit of prior damage, Fletch / Abra / Taillow can revenge). Yes, Mienfoo can cripple most of these checks with Knock Off and has U-turn to gain momentum, but most really good Pokemon have tools to wear down their own checks and counters. Poison Jab Timburr / Drilbur are great examples of this, as is HP Fire Omanyte the Ferroseed slayer. Mienfoo is really good and has several viable sets and spreads, but in my experience playing SPLC it's never been excruciating to play against. It gets the usage it does IMO because it's a great glue Pokemon as opposed to something that gets slapped onto every team because "OMG it's overpowered xD."
Berry Juice is a cool item, but unless the Berry Juice user has Sticky Hold or Thief (gl arguing Snubbull is broken), the item is completely useless if your opponent uses Knock Off. It's also useless if your Berry Juice Chinchou or Archen tries to break an Abra's Focus Sash, only to get OHKOed by a surprise LO Abra. There are other examples of Berry Juice being somewhat unreliable, though there are many more examples of it putting in work. Excellent item, but it has too many inherent flaws to be considered broken in my opinion.
The meta is fine and fairly enjoyable. Then again, maybe I'm jaded by my negative experience so far playing ORAS Ubers AKA Primal Groudon: the Metagame. Regardless, I wouldn't vote to ban anything right now but there's no harm in suspecting stuff I suppose.
Berry Juice is a cool item, but unless the Berry Juice user has Sticky Hold or Thief (gl arguing Snubbull is broken), the item is completely useless if your opponent uses Knock Off. It's also useless if your Berry Juice Chinchou or Archen tries to break an Abra's Focus Sash, only to get OHKOed by a surprise LO Abra. There are other examples of Berry Juice being somewhat unreliable, though there are many more examples of it putting in work. Excellent item, but it has too many inherent flaws to be considered broken in my opinion.
The meta is fine and fairly enjoyable. Then again, maybe I'm jaded by my negative experience so far playing ORAS Ubers AKA Primal Groudon: the Metagame. Regardless, I wouldn't vote to ban anything right now but there's no harm in suspecting stuff I suppose.
Why are people arguing to ban Knock Off solely because it's a common move? As had been stated numerous times, it's a balancing force in the metagame that does little to hurt the viability of defensive mons. Like, I don't even see the point in talking about fucking KOff Abra when it rarely gets to use the move, since it typically detracts from Abra's primary role. Moreover, how the flying fuck does Abra learning KOff stand as a valid argument?
I've been very quiet in this conversation so far. I made my point earlier, and I am still opposed to us banning anything, as we have the most stable metagame right now, and banning something could further damage the stability in my opinion. But I'm confident good sense will prevail here. Even if something accumulates enough votes to be eligible for a ban (an unlikely scenario given the attitude of many posters), I certainly cannot think of any twelve users knowledgable enough about the metagame to make council that would result in a ban of anything.
I disagree with banning Knock Off. We have had nearly eighteen months to adapt to a severely buffed Knock Off, and I believe the move is vital in a metagame where items hold more importance than in any other. One could argue that defensive playstyles are hindered by the move, but any good player or stall team builder has ways to manage the move. GlassGlaceon's XY team, possibly the finest example of a stall team this generation, outlined how he dealt with the move. I believe nothing good could come from this move being banned, as walls such as Spritzee, Porygon, and Ferroseed are nigh unbreakable without it.
I hope I communicated my opinion well; I'm not the most eloquent or descriptive person, but I truly believe we have the best metagame on the entire website right now, and banning something would compromise that, I believe. However, our prominent players are very informed and intelligent, and I believe that whoever is chosen for the council will make the decision that benefits is most.
I disagree with banning Knock Off. We have had nearly eighteen months to adapt to a severely buffed Knock Off, and I believe the move is vital in a metagame where items hold more importance than in any other. One could argue that defensive playstyles are hindered by the move, but any good player or stall team builder has ways to manage the move. GlassGlaceon's XY team, possibly the finest example of a stall team this generation, outlined how he dealt with the move. I believe nothing good could come from this move being banned, as walls such as Spritzee, Porygon, and Ferroseed are nigh unbreakable without it.
I hope I communicated my opinion well; I'm not the most eloquent or descriptive person, but I truly believe we have the best metagame on the entire website right now, and banning something would compromise that, I believe. However, our prominent players are very informed and intelligent, and I believe that whoever is chosen for the council will make the decision that benefits is most.
I agree with The Avalanches about Knock Off. Metagame is calibrated on Knock Off, everybody knows that can use an item but he can lose it. Now we have a enough variety of item to choose from because there's Knock Off and take out opposing items or keep them on our pokemon is a strategic game in every match.
I think that without Knock Off, we lost BJ immediately after and Eviolite would become prevailing again. And I think the latest thing we want is a flat tier.
I think that without Knock Off, we lost BJ immediately after and Eviolite would become prevailing again. And I think the latest thing we want is a flat tier.
[11:53:25] #QuoteCS: At this point...I'm probably voting nothing.
[11:53:43] Based Infamy: Quote, why don't you vote for retests?
[11:54:01] Based Infamy: it makes more sense than just wasting an entire round of suspecting imo
[11:54:11] #QuoteCS: Because I don't want anything to be restested
[11:54:13] #QuoteCS: lol
[11:54:16] #QuoteCS: retested*
[11:55:00] Based Infamy: doesnt it make sense to at least see if mons are broken now due to the power creep for oras though?
[11:55:12] #QuoteCS: There was no power creep in LC though
[11:55:21] Based Infamy: skrelp, pancham, goth
[11:55:39] #QuoteCS: Getting a few A/A- Pokemon isn't really a pwoer creep
[11:56:29] Based Infamy: granted, but you can't deny the meta has shifted a lot since missy's ban and some mons may not be broken now imo
[11:56:49] #QuoteCS: Is this your way of saying #freeyanma?
[11:56:54] Based Infamy: yes
[11:56:56] #QuoteCS: Because if so you shouldn't dance around it
[11:57:02] Based Infamy: #freeyanma
[11:57:03] %Aerow: missy wasn't even that broken, meditite suspect thread was a joke
[11:57:12] #QuoteCS: Missy was stupid and I'm glad it's gone
[11:57:15] %Aerow: yanma is 100% fine with compound eyes + hypno ban
[11:57:42] #QuoteCS: The issue with complex bans is that we can do that with every banned Poke to bring them back
[11:57:45] %Aerow: hell, i don't even feel the compound eyes set is that bad
[11:58:04] #QuoteCS: The Compoundeyes set was borderline uncompetitive and that's why it's gone
[11:58:29] #QuoteCS: If Compoundeyes didn't exist on Yanma I'd be fine with it
[11:58:57] #QuoteCS: It would probably just be another A+ poke
[11:59:49] %Aerow: well, I still play Tangma a lot, and I still can't really see it being a big deal
[12:00:13] %Aerow: its way better retesting Pokemon instead of just nominating dumb things
[12:00:21] Based Infamy: ^
[12:00:37] Madness20: retest would be cool
[12:00:51] Madness20: many things on the meta have changed and people l2p better
[12:01:48] %Aerow: people need to realize retests doesnt mean unban. most of the things we would potentially retest probably wont get unbanned, and thats fine
[12:01:50] Based Infamy: There's nothing remotely broken in LC at the moment and it doesn't make any sense to waste an entire suspect period. The metagame has changed a lot since the bans and it seems we should give banned mons the benefit of the doubt if we're not going to suspect anything in the current meta.
[11:53:43] Based Infamy: Quote, why don't you vote for retests?
[11:54:01] Based Infamy: it makes more sense than just wasting an entire round of suspecting imo
[11:54:11] #QuoteCS: Because I don't want anything to be restested
[11:54:13] #QuoteCS: lol
[11:54:16] #QuoteCS: retested*
[11:55:00] Based Infamy: doesnt it make sense to at least see if mons are broken now due to the power creep for oras though?
[11:55:12] #QuoteCS: There was no power creep in LC though
[11:55:21] Based Infamy: skrelp, pancham, goth
[11:55:39] #QuoteCS: Getting a few A/A- Pokemon isn't really a pwoer creep
[11:56:29] Based Infamy: granted, but you can't deny the meta has shifted a lot since missy's ban and some mons may not be broken now imo
[11:56:49] #QuoteCS: Is this your way of saying #freeyanma?
[11:56:54] Based Infamy: yes
[11:56:56] #QuoteCS: Because if so you shouldn't dance around it
[11:57:02] Based Infamy: #freeyanma
[11:57:03] %Aerow: missy wasn't even that broken, meditite suspect thread was a joke
[11:57:12] #QuoteCS: Missy was stupid and I'm glad it's gone
[11:57:15] %Aerow: yanma is 100% fine with compound eyes + hypno ban
[11:57:42] #QuoteCS: The issue with complex bans is that we can do that with every banned Poke to bring them back
[11:57:45] %Aerow: hell, i don't even feel the compound eyes set is that bad
[11:58:04] #QuoteCS: The Compoundeyes set was borderline uncompetitive and that's why it's gone
[11:58:29] #QuoteCS: If Compoundeyes didn't exist on Yanma I'd be fine with it
[11:58:57] #QuoteCS: It would probably just be another A+ poke
[11:59:49] %Aerow: well, I still play Tangma a lot, and I still can't really see it being a big deal
[12:00:13] %Aerow: its way better retesting Pokemon instead of just nominating dumb things
[12:00:21] Based Infamy: ^
[12:00:37] Madness20: retest would be cool
[12:00:51] Madness20: many things on the meta have changed and people l2p better
[12:01:48] %Aerow: people need to realize retests doesnt mean unban. most of the things we would potentially retest probably wont get unbanned, and thats fine
[12:01:50] Based Infamy: There's nothing remotely broken in LC at the moment and it doesn't make any sense to waste an entire suspect period. The metagame has changed a lot since the bans and it seems we should give banned mons the benefit of the doubt if we're not going to suspect anything in the current meta.
I suggest we seriously consider retesting one or more of: Misdreavus, Meditite, and Yanma.
I understand that these Pokemon were all banned with good reason. However, the metagame has shifted a great deal since their bannings. It is important to realize that, while these Pokemon were at one time deemed overcentralizing, their brokenness at one point in time does not necessarily mean that they are broken in the current metagame. One ought to remember that ORAS brought a good deal of power creep with it- while only a few Pokemon visibly benefited from the creep, i.e. Pumpkaboo, Pancham, Skrelp, and Gothita, the metagame has still shifted around these threats, and, for example, trapping teams have become significantly more common due to Gothita's buff-and while I do not intend to make the argument that "broken checks broken," the fact of the matter is that a Pokemons brokenness is inherently comparative to the metagame in which they resided prior to their banning, and that when a metagame contains more powerful Pokemon then a formerly broken Pokemon might not be broken in such a metagame.
For some reason, there is a great deal of stigma towards retesting Pokemon, and while some of it may be due to the view that retesting is the same as unbanning I've referenced above, for the most part I'm not entirely sure why. It seems to me that people forget that the purpose of Smogon is to create and maintain a metagame that is both not overcentralized and as inclusive as possible in order to allow for a greater place of skill in competitive battling. Thus, especially in a metagame where nothing can reasonably be considered broken, it ought to be a much larger priority to retest Pokemon than it currently is. I don't see why people fail to realize this; let me put it this way: if our only priority were to create a metagame that is not overcentralized, we would ban anything remotely broken. In OU, this would mean Metagrossite, Sablenite, Lopunnite, both Charizardites, Altarianite, Keldeo, both Landorus formes, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. We have to accept that a certain amount of centralization must be in place if we wish to create an inclusive metagame- this is why we continue to make tiers below OU, because instead of being ridiculously ban-happy and sending half of OU to a metagame where they will rarely see the light of day, we create new tiers to allow for optimal metagames throughout.
Furthermore, it is essential to realize that there would be no such thing as a metagame were it not for centralization. Allow me to explain: a metagame is a series of "trends," so to speak, where each trend is a strategy or Pokemon of some sort, and trends rise and fall in relation to other trends. Centralization is simply a trend that rises and thus causes other trends to rise. Were it not for centralization, there would be nothing to begin the rising and falling of trends- imagine centralization as that little spark that turns on the engine in your car when you turn the key. When the engine is off, the pistons don't rise and fall, but when a little bit of centralization enters the metagame, it starts everything moving. However, as in the engine, if the spark had nothing to burn- no gas- then the engine would only work for a little while and if there was no centralization then a metagame would never evolve beyond a certain point. That is to say, the pistons would only rise and fall for a brief moment before stopping again. While a metagame failing to evolve does not seem to necessarily be a bad thing, and many people refer to such a metagame as "balanced," this is in fact quite a bad thing. This is due to the necessity of variety. An important characteristic of a desirable metagame is variety, which is closely related to balance, and once a metagame has stopped evolving then it fails to provide variety; everyone uses the same things for the rest of the metagame's existence, perhaps using something new here or there from boredom, but in short the metagame fails to provide variety due to failing to continue to evolve.
It is thus clear that removing centralization of any sort can only result in a micrometagame- a good example of this is RBY LC UU, where a grand total of seven Pokemon are viable. This means that every team lacks exactly one viable Pokemon, which completely negates the skill of teambuilding and also means that a match will be far more likely to be decided by luck than by skill- in short, due to the amount of bans from the tier (and the low initial pool of Pokemon) this micrometagame requires less skill to play. Funnily enough, harken bark to the above paragraph and you shall see that we ban things for removing skill from the metagame, be it due to being luck-based or because it puts players who do not use it at an immediate disadvantage (also known as overcentralization).
In short, we ought to give these Pokemon the benefit of the doubt and retest them, since we do not know if they will be broken in the current metagame. There is absolutely no reason not to retest them, since nothing is remotely broken right now and it's simply inefficient if we waste our time on a suspect all to suspect nothing at all. Failing to retest Pokemon when obviously nothing is broken in the LC metagame right now is a travesty, and if we fail to retest them when we have the opportunity but later realize that some LC Ubers are not in fact broken then we will have failed to do our duty to a desirable metagame. Literally the only plausible reason I can think of not to vote to suspect them is if a player personally dislikes playing against, say, Misdreavus, which was banned and thus does not vote to retest it. However, it is important to maintain objectivity when voting; just because one does not find one metagame more enjoyable than the other does not mean that they ought to vote for the more fun option. For example, I have a great deal of fun using Scyther, so let's unban that! Now that I have that out of the way, let me move on to the reasoning behind a retest for the aforementioned Pokemon:
Misdreavus was quite broken at the time of its banning- it merited an 11-1 council vote to ban. Since then, however, the metagame has changed a good bit, and it is entirely plausible that it would not be broken in the current metagame. It is weak to Knock Off, which is nigh ubiquitous at the moment, meaning that it would often have difficulty switching in. It also lacks a very useful ability, since the primary Ground-type in the tier has Mold Breaker anyway. Furthermore, its offensive movepool is barren, and while Shadow Ball + Hidden Power Fighting gives it perfect neutral coverage, Hidden Power is quite weak at only 60 base power and thus fails to get many KOs even when boosted. For these reasons, I believe Misdreavus ought to be retested in order to establish whether or not it is still broken.
Meditite was a very hard Pokemon to check when it was banned due to its combination of an excellent attacking movepool and an absurd Attack stat when its ability is taken into consideration. However, the metagame has gotten significantly bulkier since it left, and while it might be able to still beat some Pokemon, I do not think it would be nearly as difficult to deal with nowadays. The argument that it can beat all of its so-called counters is certainly true, but it certainly cannot beat all of them at once. It usually carries two STABs, Bullet Punch, and a coverage move. This isn't a case like Greninja, which due to Protean could afford to run any combination of four moves, because it only has one slot to beat its checks and counters. Its strength is also often overstated, as it actually fails to consistently KO standard Eviolite Larvesta with the combination of Rock Slide + Bullet Punch, only having a 1/16 chance to do so. It also has mediocre bulk at best, which in combination with its low Speed typically results in it being KOed fairly quickly. Thus, I think Meditite should be retested in order for the community to see whether or not it is still broken.
Yanma was banned due to its versatility and its ability to cripple almost any team with Compound Eyes Hypnosis. However, it only has passable bulk and a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock means that it cannot switch in often unless it has Roost, in which case it gives the opponent a free turn to switch in their check. While it still can cripple most any team by putting a Pokemon to sleep, so can Foongus. Foongus also has much better bulk and it can hit the Pokemon immune to its ability for STAB super-effective damage. Foongus isn't banworthy, I think you'll all agree, so really the argument against Compound Eyes doesn't make a lot of sense. Yanma is also walled by Steel- and Rock-types such as Magnemite and Archen, both quite viable Pokemon at the moment. Would teams possibly begin preparing for sleep inducers better were Yanma retested? Of course, but only in the same way that all well-built teams in LC have a check to Fletchling. Yanma should be retested due to the already high viability of its checks as well as its general frailty.
I hope this wasn't too long of a read, but I had a lot of things to say. In summary: 1) if nothing is broken in a metagame, we ought to retest banned Pokemon, 2) retesting is not the same thing as unbanning, 3) the metagame has shifted significantly since the last ban, and thus the suggested Ubers may not now be broken, 4) the brokenness of a Pokemon is inherently comparative to the metagame they were banned from, 5) we aim not just to create a metagame free from overcentralization, but also one as inclusive as possible and thus we must endure a certain amount of centralization, 6) centralization is essential to a metagame because it causes trends and trends cause variety and an evolving metagame, 7) removing centralization results in a metagame (or micrometagame) that fails to prioritize skill, 8) we ought to give Ubers the benefit of the doubt and retest them in order to be sure that they are broken in the current metagame, 9) Misdreavus, Meditite, and Yanma may not be broken.
Finally, I'd like to request that anyone who plans to vote "suspect nothing" vote for suspecting Misdreavus, Yanma, and Meditite instead for the simple reason that we have no idea if they're still broken and instead of wasting the suspect test we ought to instead use it, if nothing else, to verify that Pokemon are broken. For those who already plan to vote to suspect something in the current metagame, I would appreciate it if you at the very least gave the idea of retesting something instead a thought. Thanks! :)
If anything is to be tested, it would be Yanma. Misdreavus and Meditite are undoubtably unhealthy for the metagame, and that hasn't changed much even with ORAS coming up. Misdreavus still has the bulk to take any attack that isn't Doduo's LO Brave Bird or Pawniard's Knock Off, with no defensive investment at all, and survive from full health, which would be fine if Misdreavus didn't also have 19 Speed and 18 Special Attack to back that up. It can boost, it can be a status platform, it blocks Rapid Spin, it has Destiny Bond, it can be Scarfed with Trick, it can run Berry Juice, and has many coverage moves to get past most of its checks. Infamy, you mention that the metagame has somehow changed to be hostile to it, while mentioning only Knock Off and MB Drilbur, both of which existed when it was unbanned. What is new in the metagame that can hope to switch in or beat Misdreavus? Pancham certainly can't if Misdreavus has Will-o-Wisp or Dazzling Gleam, Pumpkaboo obviously can't stop it since it's weak to Ghost, it can't be trapped by Gothita or Diglett, leaving Skrelp as the only ORAS newcomer that can beat Misdreavus, but only if it lacks Thunderbolt. Everything else in the current meta existed when Misdreavus was unbanned, and was not enough to stop it from receiving the banhammer.
As for Meditite, it's in the same boat: nothing came with ORAS that can stop it, and with Murkrow and Misdreavus out of the way, it has even lost checks since it got banned. Pumpkaboo seems like a solid check, and would be if its standard set didn't run so much Special Defense, and as it is now, Jolly Zen Headbutt 2HKOs after SR, which means Meditite doesn't even need to use a special move to beat it. Pancham and Skrelp obviously lose, though it requires SR to OHKO either of them without Adamant. Gothita can beat it, but that relies on a low roll for Drain Punch since it can actually recover enough HP from Drain Punch to live through 2 Shadow Balls and then KO with 2 Drain Punches + Bullet Punch. No Shadow Ball? Even easier for Meditite. Also, I'd like to know where you got that Larvesta calc from, because this is what I get from it:
196 Atk Huge Power Meditite Rock Slide vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Larvesta: 24-32 (96 - 128%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(24, 24, 24, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 32)
Meditite is extremely powerful, while having enough bulk to live through things it shouldn't with Evilolite. But Hawkstar, what about Knock Off? To that I say, what Knock Off user in their right mind is staying in on Meditite? Pawniard, Mienfoo, Timburr, Pancham, Tentacool, Abra, Dwebble, Archen, Vullaby and whoever else all either lose to Meditite 1v1 or can outright KO it, so unless they are sacrificing themselves or are stupid, then Meditite should never be Knocked Off it if doesn't switch into it. Then of course, there are Scarfed and LO sets, with legendary High Jump Kicks that destroy anything that isn't a Ghost-type or very bulky Fighting-type resist. Meditite is not healthy for the metagame at all.
Yanma is the only banned Pokemon that I would consider retesting, because I'm not entirely convinced that it would be broken in this meta like I am Misdreavus or Meditite. In fact, I think it might fill a pretty cool niche in LC as a viable 20 Speeder that can go on any team as opposed to Diglett or Elekid. LO Yanma is powerful and fast, but it has low BP moves, and compared to Carvanha who also has that problem, it doesn't have a huge base 90 attacking stat to make up for it. Hypnosis is nonsense, and I could definitely see that re-breaking Yanma, but I think that we should give it a chance regardless. Just please don't spout any retardedness about banning Hypnosis + Compound Eyes.
Most of our illogical choices come from the weird need to change the metagame and I don't get it. I would group this in with it. Suspecting something "to take a closer look" doesn't make sense. Retesting something "because it doesn't mean unban". That is all bullshit - it's all there before your eyes. The only thing you're doing is second guessing the council's earlier decision.
It's fine to have an opinion about retests as a philosophy, but your entire argument is based on an assertion of a fact which is, at best not proven and at worst, actually disprovable. I'm talking about the false premise: the metagame has shifted. Look at the usage stats. Nothing has changed except for a few counters of Pokemon (like Munchlax for Yangela and Briyella's main mon, Elgyem) dropping pretty heavily and some different Pokemon were easier to include (Mienfoo).
Yanma, Meditite, and Misdreavus have not at all been negatively effected by ORAS. In fact, the metagame is practically the same save for Pumpkaboo and using Trick on Gothita. Pumkpaboo is one of the few Pokemon that gained viability and impacts any of the Pokemon, (Meditite) and it still gets 2HKOed 94% of the time with ZHB by non-LO Tite. Maybe Restalk Skrelp impacts Yanma, but Restalk Skrelp is balls.
EVERYTHING ELSE WAS HERE. Fletchling maybe wasn't used as much as it currently is because Yanma metagames were rampant with Flying-type checks and it didn't fit on Yanma team very well. That does NOT mean it wasn't available. Hell, it was still used to counter Yanma but the metagame was very anti-Fletchling. What has changed that would suggest retesting makes sense? That the metagame would not revert to what it was (without top 5 usage stats for Fletchling)?
Nothing. In the words of my fellow yid:
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
- Albert Einstein.
While I wouldn't say retesting those 3 mons are "insane", it fits into AE's definition. Well I wouldn't not say that, though maybe I'd prefer it to Mienfoo/BP.
What I meant was that the metagame was more hostile to Missy because of how common Knock Off is nowadays. From what I can tell, Knock Off is a great deal more common now than it was back when Missy was around. For example, Pancham has Knock Off now, which lets it beat Missy. Also, Missy really doesn't have good coverage- it has Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, and Hidden Power. Pumkaboo is capable of revenging with Shadow Sneak and while Skrelp can't switch into a Thunderbolt, it can tank everything else Missy runs barring Psychic. Basically, it's a lot easier to revenge now that ORAS has come around.
I'm really not sure what happened with the Larv calc lol, sorry. Anyway, if Pumpkaboo runs a more physically defensive spread it can easily take a Zen Headbutt, and just because it runs a certain spread now doesn't mean it won't adapt to the metagame. Also, Cottonee can easily stay in and Knock Off or Dazzling Gleam Meditite, while Vullaby can switch in on anything not named High Jump Kick and Knock Off it as well. Gothita can, if not completely KO Tite by itself, at least wear Meditite down to the point that it can easily be revenged.
Retesting is not "second guessing the council's earlier decision," it's recognizing that changes have occurred and that we ought to give the banned Pokemon the benefit of the doubt. Claiming that the metagame hasn't shifted is just ridiculous, I don't see where you're getting these ideas. Skrelp, Gothita, Pancham, and Pumpkaboo have all become very viable Pokemon due to the release of ORAS. Yes, my argument is entirely based on the fact that the metagame has shifted, but you can't claim that it hasn't shifted. Also, the metagame shifted even before ORAS, after Misdreavus was banned, the metagame shifted a good deal. I recognize that Pokemon were around during the metagames, but nevertheless there is no reason to vote for anything other than this. You're failing to acknowledge the fact that there's no way you can just theorymon away all of these things; it is entirely possible that these Pokemon may not be broken, but there's no way to tell unless we retest them. Retests make a lot more sense than voting to suspect something dumb like Mienfoo, and nominating nothing just wastes everyone's time.
The problem with your rather insulting insanity argument is that things have, in fact, changed and you're simply failing to acknowledge it.
Also, if you could stop just blatantly misinterpreting me just to look smart, that'd be great. I have, in fact, used the banned mons and tested them with Aerow and I don't believe they're broken. You're also acting like a retest is an unban, which it clearly isn't and you're just saying because you don't want to actually argue my point since I'm obviously right.
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"benefit of the doubt"? That doesn't mean anything in this context.
Instead of engaging with rhetoric, can you actually make the arguments that there has been a substantial change? Because I've already asserted that ORAS actually don't change anything and aren't relevant or big enough to warrant a retest. I'll restate it for you:
Gothita getting Trick is irrelevant has hell - it does not substantially impact Yanma, Missy, or Meditite.
Pancham getting Knock Off (that's what it got right?) is irrelevant - it does not substantially impact the suspects first and foremost because it's not popular. Missy deals with Timburr and Mienfoo already, adding Pancham into the mix does nothing.
Skrelp getting Adaptability does not matter to anything except Yanma because it's a somewhat viable counter with Sleep Talk. However, Yanma already dealt with Chinchou. The addition of Skrelp has a minimal impact at best.
Pumpkaboo getting popular and has Synthesis. This is the only real argument that you could make, and only for Meditite. And it still can't switch into ZHB or Fire Punch.
I think it's safe to say, one check being added does not make a Pokemon all of the sudden not broken.
I hope you don't mean that you've only tested those Pokemon in challenges. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (see) and assume you mean that you played with all of Yanma, Meditite, and Misdreavus in their respective metagames.
Retests are not the same as unban, no, but the reasoning for doing either is the same. You aren't taking a closer look than the people who already took a closer look. Since you bring up being insulted, I apologize if I offend you. However, acting like there's a reason besides second guessing past decisions is insulting to the intelligence of every single person who reads your post.
If you can't even show that ORAS changes substantially have impacted the metagame, then how do you expect anyone else to?
I'm not going to respond to your ad hominem attacks as to not escalate the thread but they don't help you.
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From what I can tell, the most convincing argument of Infamy's is that not doing anything would be a massive waste of all our time. I know I didn't spend two weeks laddering that cancer for nothing.
Also, Heysup, if everything is still broken, then what the fuck is the downside of retesting? Especially if there is nothing else to test? We just figure out that "hey, those mons we banned earlier are indeed still broken, and maybe are more broken than we originally thought." Then the meta goes back to normal. There is literally 0 downside.
Unless, of course, you simply don't trust that those who have attained reqs can make a correct decision, or that whomever finds themselves on the council will have some personal agenda or something. I dunno. I just don't understand why you are so strongly opposed to doing anything with this test
Also, Heysup, if everything is still broken, then what the fuck is the downside of retesting? Especially if there is nothing else to test? We just figure out that "hey, those mons we banned earlier are indeed still broken, and maybe are more broken than we originally thought." Then the meta goes back to normal. There is literally 0 downside.
Unless, of course, you simply don't trust that those who have attained reqs can make a correct decision, or that whomever finds themselves on the council will have some personal agenda or something. I dunno. I just don't understand why you are so strongly opposed to doing anything with this test
Zero foresight....
The downside of retesting is that we reintroduce a broken Pokemon and the metagame becomes broken and we have to deal with it by going through this process which takes time and luck (nominations, decisions my council).
The real question you should be asking is: what the point of council decisions if they can just be undone by different council members (for no reason)?
IF IT IS STILL BROKEN WE WILL NOT REINTRODUCE IT
I am sorry for causing you to be angry. Hopefully properly informing you what happens when something is "retested" will make you less angry. If the council votes for the retest, and the Pokemon is broken, it will be reintroduced into the real metagame. There is no buffer. It will have to be rebanned.
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