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So, pulling out from the Pidgeot discussion, I would like to make my own nomination :)
A --> A+
Garchomp is a really effective Pokemon in this metagame, possessing great offensive stats and decent bulk, as well as great utility options such as Dragon Tail and Stealth Rock. In the transition from XY to ORAS it gained two incredibly stellar sets: the bulky chomp set and the offensive SD SR set. The former allows it to pseudo-spinblock as well as check Mega Metagross, Talonflame, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade etc. because of Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin, phazing things with Dragon Tail, crippling stuff with Toxic and setting up rocks, and the latter turns Garchomp into arguably the best Stealth Rock setter in the game as it can get past Magic Bouncers such as Sableye with Swords Dance. That's not all actually, Garchomp performs viable Choice Scarf, SD+Sub, SD+3 attacks, Mega wallbreaker sets.
Personally I think that Garchomp's ability to perform such many sets so effectively, and its ability to check many prominent threats, warrants it a rise to A+ imo.
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 241-285 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 163-193 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 159-187 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Also I nominated Reuniclus to C+ a little while ago and it would be nice if I could have criticism/support since it's been kinda quiet lol
Seriously; why are you guys trying to drop Magneton? Starmie is now OU. Talonflame now runs more speed. Raikou (which means little to Magne) is now OU. Pidgeot/Torn-T are around/more prominent. The birds have heat wave, Talonflame has Flare Blitz, Starmie can spin so they beat scarf Magnezone, while Starmie can beat weakened Magnezones and spin. Magneton however, beats these threats before they can touch it. Yes, it lacks power, but considering all it does it kill steels + these threats all game, and possibly hit weakened threats in KO range, that doesn't warrant it dropping further. BeeZone exists, which loses to T-Flame and has a hard time V the others I mentioned bar Starmie. BeeTon doesn't. If it drops to C+, I'd say Magnezone should be B at highest. They should never go an entire rank (B+/C+) apart, when they are so similar and have large important niches over each other.
Seriously; why are you guys trying to drop Magneton? Starmie is now OU. Talonflame now runs more speed. Raikou (which means little to Magne) is now OU. Pidgeot/Torn-T are around/more prominent. The birds have heat wave, Talonflame has Flare Blitz, Starmie can spin so they beat scarf Magnezone, while Starmie can beat weakened Magnezones and spin. Magneton however, beats these threats before they can touch it. Yes, it lacks power, but considering all it does it kill steels + these threats all game, and possibly hit weakened threats in KO range, that doesn't warrant it dropping further. BeeZone exists, which loses to T-Flame and has a hard time V the others I mentioned bar Starmie. BeeTon doesn't. If it drops to C+, I'd say Magnezone should be B at highest. They should never go an entire rank (B+/C+) apart, when they are so similar and have large important niches over each other.
It should drop largely because it's an inferior Magnezone, and Magnezone itself isn't as good as it used to be. If Magnezone is to drop - which it did; from A- to B+ - then I find the idea of not dropping Magneton which has one tiny thing over it and only one viable set utterly ridiculous.
Seriously; why are you guys trying to drop Magneton? Starmie is now OU. Talonflame now runs more speed. Raikou (which means little to Magne) is now OU. Pidgeot/Torn-T are around/more prominent. The birds have heat wave, Talonflame has Flare Blitz, Starmie can spin so they beat scarf Magnezone, while Starmie can beat weakened Magnezones and spin. Magneton however, beats these threats before they can touch it. Yes, it lacks power, but considering all it does it kill steels + these threats all game, and possibly hit weakened threats in KO range, that doesn't warrant it dropping further. BeeZone exists, which loses to T-Flame and has a hard time V the others I mentioned bar Starmie. BeeTon doesn't. If it drops to C+, I'd say Magnezone should be B at highest. They should never go an entire rank (B+/C+) apart, when they are so similar and have large important niches over each other.
The main reason people want magneton to drop is greninja got banned and magneton's niche over zone is it could outrun greninja. Magneton can outrun base 115s unlike zone but if you ask me that's a small niche and it's alot less bulky as shown:
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 151-178 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 123-145 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
Magneton honestly should only be used if you have a problem with Talonflame and/or the hurricane spammers because starmie can't really do much to it anyways aside from a lure set with HP fire.
Nominating Thundurus-Therian for C+. Thundurus-Therian is often overlooked by it's brother Thundurus-I. However, Thundurus-T does have much better special attack, and volt absorb, giving it an immunity and a form of pseudo recovery, as well as allowing it to check Pokemon such as HP Flying Thundy-I and Magnezone. Base 101 speed also isn't that bad, as it still allows it to outspeed the plethora of base 100 speed mons, as well as speed tying with Landorus-I, a top tier threat currently. Access to two great boosting moves, nasty plot and agility, allow it to become a fearsome late game sweeper as well as being able to break apart many walls at +2, even Chansey, the best special wall in OU is 2HKOed by Focus Blast, and many other common walls are destroyed by Thundurus-T.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 370-437 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 374-442 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thundurus-T also does well against common metagame trends. It destroys many common mons, such as Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Mega Venu if running HP Flying, Clefable, bulky SD Mega Scizor, etc. Thundy-T basically pairs well with anything that enjoys bulky water types removed, such as SubCM Keldeo, as Thundy-T can remove Slowbro, Rotom-W, and weaken the Lati twins.
Double dancer Thundurus-T is a set that I've been experimenting with recently. It's certainly not too shabby, as against balanced and stall teams, it can set up a few nasty plots and nuke everything, while against more offensive teams, it can set up an agility and go to town. That being said, Thundurus-T still has some problems. It has severe 4MSS, as it can't fit nasty plot / agility / hp flying / hp ice / focus blast / thunderbolt all on to one set, and it needs most if not all of those moves to be successful. Lack of coverage is also quite annoying. All Thundurus-T really has is hidden power and focus blast, which is rather "meh". It's bulk is also average at best, and factoring in an SR weakness, it can be quite hard to switch in safely.
In conclusion, Thundy-T's double dancer set, which is a fearsome late game sweeper and I guess wallbreaker(?), is capable of ripping holes in stall teams (not much can stop it as it sets up and proceeds to nuke everything), and destroying balanced builds such as Rotom-W + Heatran, VenuTran, CeleTran, FWG cores such as gyarados + chesnaught + heatran (thunder bolt + hp flying + focus blast, but you do miss out on agility), etc, so I think it should move up to C+.
Okay well this is going to be my first formal nomination so without further ado...
Excadrill for A+
This has been something that has been long overdue. The main reason for this nom is its Sand Rush set which is very threatening against offensive teams. Sand offense is very threatening playstyle right now and Excadrill is the cornerstone of it due to being the only good sand rush mon in OU. Unlike other weather sweepers like Kingdra and Kabutops, Excadrill has to advantage of being immune to Thunder Wave (which is godsend for sweeper) and Toxic. It's attack stat is already absurd and can be boosted even further with Swords Dance making offense really cry.
Here's some calcs to demonstrate its power after a boost:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 305-360 (95.6 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 274-324 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 321-380 (91.1 - 107.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 338-400 (112.2 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Resisting Talonflame's Brave Bird, Scizor's Bullet Punch, and taking LO Mamo's Ice Shard well is also a great boon. The only things that can revenge it under sand are Breloom and Azumarill making it very hard to stop for good majority of teams. It's actually bulkier than most think due to its high HP stat and its typing gives is plenty of valuable resistances making easily switch in on Fairys, Lati@s, and Electric-types. With an Air Balloon it has even more opportunities to set up or switch into prominent mons such as Scarf Landorus-T and Gliscor. Add the fact it's x4 resistant to Stealth Rock as well as immune to TSpikes and it makes bringing it in for sweep incredibly easy. Even if Excadrill doesn't sweep under sand, it still will cause major dent in the opponents team opening up the doors for something else to clean up.
Even outside of sand it is very useful as it has access to Rapid Spin making it a valuable team supporter for mons like Zard-X/Y, Talonflame, etc. A Mold Breaker SpDef set is also interesting by the fact that Excadrill can set up Rocks without fear of anything bouncing it back as well as Toxic Mega Sableye which can be great boon for stall and semistall alike.
Excadrill has so much going for him in the metagame right now and while it does have it shortcomings, like being walled by Skarmory, Chestnaught, Hippowdon, and other common physical walls as well as sub par speed outside of sand, its ability to late game clean very nicely, provide spin support, as well as other traits previously mentioned is enough to push it to A+.
iirc SD Sand Rush sets are generally Jolly since the speed helps outside of sand and SD can boost attack so Adamant is less important. Nice argument otherwise though, I'm actually gonna use that as a segway for my own selfish agenda. <.<
The proliferation of Sand offense with Excadrill and threatening sweepers such as Landorus-I and Mega Diancie is the main reason I think Azumarill shouldn't drop like some people have been saying it should. Yes Mega Metagross is a reliable counter to the Belly Drum set, AV has gotten less useful and Choice Band is still prediction reliant. However its powerful Aqua Jet is such a valuable check to several offensive threats. With decent bulk and a nice defensive typing in general, Azumarill is a nice momentum changing check against many pokemon found on offense and can still be very threatening to more defensively oriented teams because of its power.
iirc SD Sand Rush sets are generally Jolly since the speed helps outside of sand and SD can boost attack so Adamant is less important. Nice argument otherwise though, I'm actually gonna use that as a segway for my own selfish agenda. <.<
The proliferation of Sand offense with Excadrill and threatening sweepers such as Landorus-I and Mega Diancie is the main reason I think Azumarill shouldn't drop like some people have been saying it should. Yes Mega Metagross is a reliable counter to the Belly Drum set, AV has gotten less useful and Choice Band is still prediction reliant. However its powerful Aqua Jet is such a valuable check to several offensive threats. With decent bulk and a nice defensive typing in general, Azumarill is a nice momentum changing check against many pokemon found on offense and can still be very threatening to more defensively oriented teams because of its power.
To be honest, Adamant Mega Charizard X is really uncommon right now, as most sets run Jolly 184 or something to outspeed Jolly 232 speed Lando-T, and KO after SR with Flare Blitz. Jolly Excadrill in Sand does outspeed Adamant Excadrill though, lol :P
Anyways, I think I'll share my thoughts on some recent nominations:
Mega Scizor A to A+: Agreeing on this one. Mega Scizor is a great check to the plethora of fairies right now, such as Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria. Countering Mega Metagross is also pretty huge, as it's one of the most commonly used Pokemon currently. Bulky SD sets are also fantastic win conditions.
Porygon2 C to C+: Agree. P2 has boltbeam coverage, reliable recovery, and a decent defensive typing with only 1 weakness and 1 immunity. Its mixed bulk is excellent thanks to Eviolite. Knock Off is quite common though, but I still think it should move up.
Garchomp A to A+: Also agree. Garchomp is just great in this meta. It can run many sets, such as SD + Lum, or Bulky Helmet, which just lols at physical attackers and makes them take heavy recoil damage thanks to rocky helmet + rough skin (TOUCHING IT WILL KILL YOU). Physically defensive is a great check to mons such as Mega Lopunny and non Ice Punch mega metagross, as well as being able to set up SR and phaze stuff with dragon tail. Deserves to move up imo.
Excadrill A to A+: Agree. Sand Rush Excadrill is a very efficient and powerful cleaner with sand up, and pairs beautifully with Mega Altaria. Offering spin support is also nice, probably tying with starmie for the best rapid spinner in OU. Defensive moldbreaker sets are also quite cool, allowing it to toxic stuff like Clefable and Sableye, as well as being able to set up SR and spin them away.
Pachirisu Unranked to D: I actually agree on this one. AV makes it quite bulky on the special side, being able to take hits from some of the strongest wallbreakers in the tier such as mega gardevoir and zard y. Nuzzle is nice for paralyzing stuff, and it can't get blocked by taunt, while u-turn allows it to be an effective pivot. Super Fang is actually quite cool too, being able to instantly take out a chunk of health from the opposing Pokemon, u-turn out, maybe get a paralyze off with nuzzle, and then bring in something that can set up on it or check / counter it. Pachirisu is also an amazing electric type counter thanks to it's electric-typing and volt absorb, it just hard walls stuff like raikou and NP thund, as well as stopping mons like Rotom-W and other volt switch users from spamming volt switch. If you ask me, this is pretty niche but I think D is fine. Props to draconinja for thinking of this, this is actually quite ingenious imo :]
Agree with pretty much everything atm besides for Pachirisu to D. IDK why you would actually want to use it over any other Electric. All it has is super fang, which tbh is nothing worthy of even D rank. There are plenty of other decent Electric-type stops to Thund like AV Raikou, and if you want to block volt switch Volt Absorb Lanturn exists...not to mention Lanturn's typing gives it helpful resists to Water and Ice. It is also extremely passive, so basically any Ground-type can come in on it and do whatever it wants. And while it can take a few hits, it can't do anything back and has no recovery. Its trash physical bulk doesn't help it either...
There are a lot of good mons out there if you want to stop electric-types from spamming volt switch, but Pachirisu is not one of them.
Nominating Thundurus-Therian for C+. Thundurus-Therian is often overlooked by it's brother Thundurus-I. However, Thundurus-T does have much better special attack, and volt absorb, giving it an immunity and a form of pseudo recovery, as well as allowing it to check Pokemon such as HP Flying Thundy-I and Magnezone. Base 101 speed also isn't that bad, as it still allows it to outspeed the plethora of base 100 speed mons, as well as speed tying with Landorus-I, a top tier threat currently. Access to two great boosting moves, nasty plot and agility, allow it to become a fearsome late game sweeper as well as being able to break apart many walls at +2, even Chansey, the best special wall in OU is 2HKOed by Focus Blast, and many other common walls are destroyed by Thundurus-T.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 370-437 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 374-442 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thundurus-T also does well against common metagame trends. It destroys many common mons, such as Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Mega Venu if running HP Flying, Clefable, bulky SD Mega Scizor, etc. Thundy-T basically pairs well with anything that enjoys bulky water types removed, such as SubCM Keldeo, as Thundy-T can remove Slowbro, Rotom-W, and weaken the Lati twins.
Double dancer Thundurus-T is a set that I've been experimenting with recently. It's certainly not too shabby, as against balanced and stall teams, it can set up a few nasty plots and nuke everything, while against more offensive teams, it can set up an agility and go to town. That being said, Thundurus-T still has some problems. It has severe 4MSS, as it can't fit nasty plot / agility / hp flying / hp ice / focus blast / thunderbolt all on to one set, and it needs most if not all of those moves to be successful. Lack of coverage is also quite annoying. All Thundurus-T really has is hidden power and focus blast, which is rather "meh". It's bulk is also average at best, and factoring in an SR weakness, it can be quite hard to switch in safely.
In conclusion, Thundy-T's double dancer set, which is a fearsome late game sweeper and I guess wallbreaker(?), is capable of ripping holes in stall teams (not much can stop it as it sets up and proceeds to nuke everything), and destroying balanced builds such as Rotom-W + Heatran, VenuTran, CeleTran, FWG cores such as gyarados + chesnaught + heatran (thunder bolt + hp flying + focus blast, but you do miss out on agility), etc, so I think it should move up to C+.
Yeah no offense but that's really just grasping at straws. magnezone is practically irrelevant atm and hp flying thundy has little to no use now that mvenu usage is back down, and that mmeta covers fightings so easily anyway. not like +2 thundy can even OHKO av conk without a life orb with hp flying anyway u_u
Base 101 speed is pretty relevant, but the part where you talk about chansey getting destroyed by +2 focus blast? Well no shit. Its nasty plot, life orb, super effective, 120 base power, 145 base special attack; chansey's pretty ridiculous for taking less than 70% from all of that crap jesus. Not to mention that there's a clean 49% chance you even land two in a row. You're seriously blowing thundy-t's power out of proportion here. If you wanted to break through chansey and were willing to use focus blast, Knock off+Focus blast lando-i works fine.
So lets talk about its different sets: first you mentioned double dance. Well first off, this set sucks. It simply doesn't have enough power to blast through the walls that threaten it, not enough bulk to set up both, and not enough base power on its moves to kill. It has more than enough speed to outpace shit at +2, but it simply cannot dent the shit it needs to, even with extensive support.
What makes it different from something like lando-t?
Lando-t has the bulk, the power on its base moves, raw power from the start (shit almost 2hko's max defense clefable with leftovers, not even earth plate, much less life orb) and the utility to actually check prominent threats like talonflame, excadrill, mmeta, mlop, not some never seen horsecrap like zone or hp flying thundy. Honestly the only mons that can pull off double dance well in Ou are lando-t and terrakion.
Ok lets talk about the next tidbit that bothers me
Thundurus-T also does well against common metagame trends. It destroys many common mons, such as Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Mega Venu if running HP Flying, Clefable, bulky SD Mega Scizor, etc. Thundy-T basically pairs well with anything that enjoys bulky water types removed, such as SubCM Keldeo, as Thundy-T can remove Slowbro, Rotom-W, and weaken the Lati twins.
"Thundy-T can remove slowbro, rotom-w, and weaken the lati twins"
Remove slowbro? Who the fuck is actually gonna let you just kill slowbro knowing you're carrying a keldeo? Pokemon don't "remove" shit like that, half the mons you stated doesn't really get killed like you think they do (cept fable/venu) because those aren't staying in! If I wanted to "weaken" the lati's i'd use a ttar and call it a fucking day. This is basic knowledge, you don't just throw on a lati to get rid of venu for your keld or something silly like that. I hate to be giving a lesson here, but it seems that its necessary:
There are two ways to remove a mon
You pressure that shit
Or you lure that shit
OOOR you trap that shit (not recommended)
Pressuring involves forcing one mon, and preferably only one common mon, (usually acts as a blanket check) and forcing them to keep switching in to take damage. Your example of focus blast with chansey was pretty good; chansey is typically going to come in on thundy-t, only to find out that its eating +2 focus blasts.
Another easy example is simply stuff like birdspam; talonflame is weakening or killing the lando-t so that mega pinsir can get past it without a problem. Lando-t is a blanket check to mega pinsir and talonflame, but can't handle both.
Thundy-T ISN'T pressuring slowbro because that's not fucking switching in regardless.
Luring is catching a pokemon that usually counters you off guard with an uncommon move, such as hp bug on keldeo to lure celebi, power herb+solarbeam heatran to lure rotom-w, slowbro, keldeo (something that ACTUALLY removes waters), and grass knot thundurus to remove hippowdon. These are relevant and valid examples of great lures that work very well at both luring in their target, making them feel safe, and then destroying them. And actually being useful for other things afterwards.
Thundy-T ISN'T luring in slowbro because slowbro isn't particularly fucking inclined to switch in anyways.
Trapping i'd honestly just limit to ttar shitting on lati because i believe any other form of trapping involves using subpar mons and generally limits your team's potential. Its dirt-fucking obvious that dugtrio needs to remove heatran, better off running something cool like focus blast clefable or eq latios. Dugtrio does nothing else, but clefable and lati? Boy they do put in quite a bit of work almost every game.
With that out of the way, lets refer to the other set you were hinting at: The NP wallbreaker set.
Well it kinda blows.
There are far better options for you to look for when considering breaking apart special cores and fwg cores. I mean breaking those kinds of cores is no big fucking wake-up call, anything as simple as earthquake latios can do that much easily, without a boost.
Every defensive core you named is also just crumbling to lando-i, unboosted. Whats the point of even bothering to use thundy-t as a wallbreaker (god forbid you expect to "rip holes in stall teams" with double dance thundy-t) when i can just slap sludge wave, or even better, calm mind, and do the same if not FAR more work into stall teams? Not to mention lando-i has insane coverage options like sludge wave, hp ice, knock off, and focus blast? Not to mention it can actually clean offense with just ONE boost.
That replay you coughed up? you're gonna have to come up with something better than a lando-t staying in on HP ice. "destroys sylveon and lando-t" my ass, if all I needed was hp ice to do that raikou, thundurus, and megaman do just fine.
As if sylveon is holding a fucking candle to char-x anyway:
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 381-448 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
You didn't even touch upon the one actual decent use it DOES have, a scarfer on offense that doesn't gift-wrap momentum to your opponent (like scarftran does), outspeed fast megas such as mscept, mlop, maero, mzam, burd, and mbee, but ALSO can actually check SD talon. Of course, it can kinda preserve momentum with volt switch and hits naturally hard with 145 base sp. att so it does its role as a scarfer pretty darn well. THIS is the one good niche thundy-t should be used for, not some ass wallbreaker or double dancer set.
TL; DR There's really just not a lot too special about a strong electric type; if you wanted a faster one you got megaman and if you wanted a wallbreaker there are countless better options. The specific mons it "lures" can be done better by thundy anyway as that has better speed to actually threaten offense and if you still really wanted a strong electric thing just use specs raikou :P
Basically thundy-t is pretty shit and its one great niche it has as a scarfer lets it stay in C, raikou is too weak for scarf
Sorry wall of text :I And don't take my harsh tone personally, that's just how I correct everybody ;]
Thundy-T doesn't need to set up both Agility and Nasty Plot. Against offensive teams, it can set up agility. Against defensive teams, it sets up nasty plots. And how does Thundy-T not have the power to break through walls that threaten it? At +2, nothing can really take a hit from it. The part where you talk about how Thundy-T can't remove slowbro because it just switches out doesn't make any sense. The same can be said for any type of mon. Why is mega metagross + keldeo a good core? Because mega gross walls the lati twins and can beat them 1v1. Did I ever say Sylveon was stopping a mega charizard x sweep? No, I said that lando-t was stopping it. Sure Thundy faces lots of competition from lando-i as a wallbreaker, but if you need a secondary special wallbreaker, thundy-t is still a nice choice. NP Thundy-T boosts much faster than CM lando-i, and it's typing also makes it harder to revenge kill. Both are weak to ice shard, but with an agility up, it's pretty hard to revenge kill thundy-t, due to being neutral to Aqua Jet, resisting bullet punch, and resisting brave bird. Raikou and Mega Man don't beat sylveon either. 90 BP on a STAB move and 120 BP on a coverage move isn't called "not enough base power on it's moves to kill". Lando-I also has a 90 BP STAB move and runs Focus Blast (120 BP) as a coverage move. There's nothing wrong with the baser power of thundy's moves.
You talked about a scarf set, I've never really used it before, but it sounds pretty cool. That's only more of a reason for it to move up as a double dancer set and scarfer set make it much harder to deal with and prepare for.
Thundy-T doesn't need to set up both Agility and Nasty Plot. Against offensive teams, it can set up agility. Against defensive teams, it sets up nasty plots. And how does Thundy-T not have the power to break through walls that threaten it? At +2, nothing can really take a hit from it. The part where you talk about how Thundy-T can't remove slowbro because it just switches out doesn't make any sense. The same can be said for any type of mon. Why is mega metagross + keldeo a good core? Because mega gross walls the lati twins and can beat them 1v1. Did I ever say Sylveon was stopping a mega charizard x sweep? No, I said that lando-t was stopping it. Sure Thundy faces lots of competition from lando-i as a wallbreaker, but if you need a secondary special wallbreaker, thundy-t is still a nice choice. NP Thundy-T boosts much faster than CM lando-i, and it's typing also makes it harder to revenge kill. Both are weak to ice shard, but with an agility up, it's pretty hard to revenge kill thundy-t, due to being neutral to Aqua Jet, resisting bullet punch, and resisting brave bird. Raikou and Mega Man don't beat sylveon either. NP Thundy-T boosts much faster than CM lando-i, 90 BP on a STAB move and 120 BP on a coverage move isn't called "not enough base power on it's moves to kill". Lando-I also has a 90 BP STAB move and runs Focus Blast (120 BP) as a coverage move. There's nothing wrong with the baser power of thundy's moves.
Yeah, and thundy-t doesn't have the raw power to do either beat offense or beat stall with the respective boost under its belt; that's the point i'm trying to make here lol. At +2, sdef hippo stands out as an extremely prominent answer to it, and after rocks, sand, and Lo damage it loses to rock slide. mega Altaria is also a great answer, taking non LO hp ices and killing back with return or hyper voice. To be honest, those barely live, but the big momma herself chansey can easily tank anything double dance has to deal out
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 211-250 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
"nothing can really take a hit from it."
Of course, if you wanted to go full wallbreaker, you are pretty much correct, but it just does its job so much worse than it other stuff can. between, rocks and life orb recoil, it kills itself way too fast, and pokemon like lando-i don't suffer life orb recoil and are neutral to rocks :I
As i was afraid, you still didn't really understand basic shit, but i'll try to explain.
mmeta+keld is a gud core because yes, mmeta switches into lati, but its more because its also switching into grasses that pressure it and luring the waters that wall it. If all I cared about was getting rid of lati, then ttar does that fine, but that can't switch into grasses or beat waters as well as mmeta does.
Besides, even if mmeta is beating lati 1v1, IS LATI STAYING IN? No, unless a pokemon dies either way, then no, a lati is not fucking staying in on mmeta. The offense/balance team will then sacrifice a pokemon, threaten you out, and continue to limit your switch-ins.
DID YOU ACCOMPLISH YOUR JOB OF "REMOVING LATI"?
NO
LATI SWITCHED OUT AND ITS FUCKING FINE.
see what i mean?
yes, you can come in again when lati does, but the team should have SOME kind of response to mmeta (AV slowking, cores like ferro+lando-t, ferro+slowbro, etc), or atleast be able to prevent safe switch-ins if its offense (use hpfire/eq frequently on latios).
Cool replay where thundy-t destroys sylveon and lando-t which was stopping my zard x from sweeping.
"secondary special wallbreaker" lol how many slots do you think a team has. teams don' got room for some mon that doesn't pull its weight vs offense, balance, or stall as well as its better counterpart(s) do(es). We rank pokemon because they have a valuable NICHE, because they DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, not because they're a nice secondary choice. Still just grasping for straws lol.
90 BP on a STAB move and 120 BP on a coverage move isn't called "not enough base power on it's moves to kill". Lando-I also has a 90 BP STAB move and runs Focus Blast (120 BP) as a coverage move. There's nothing wrong with the baser power of thundy's moves.
earth power factoring in sheer force is 117 base power lol.
Base power of your moves is a real problem, its the reason why keldeo's scalds are ridiculously weak without specs, despite having a solid 129 base special attack.
Both are weak to ice shard, but with an agility up, it's pretty hard to revenge kill thundy-t, due to being neutral to Aqua Jet, resisting bullet punch, and resisting brave bird.
It's also pretty hard to kill anything with just an agility up on thundy-t, so being resistant to priority is pretty pointless. and you're not getting two free turns vs offense from any competent player.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 172-203 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric: 139-165 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 191-226 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 138-164 (40.4 - 48%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (big one, big big big one)
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
When did i say they did lol. and fyi neither is thundy-t lmao
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 161-191 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 166-196 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 339-399 (113.3 - 133.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This has already been brought up, but Garchomp really needs to go back up to A+.
Anyone who's been keeping up with SPL. And ladder trends for the past few weeks know that Garchomp has seen a surge in usage. And this surge in usage is completely justified. Most known for its bulky Rocky Helmet set, Garchomp is an excellent stealth rocker on balance and bulky offense teams by nature of its typing, bulk, and movepool. It's typing gives it key resistances to fire and rock type attack, which gives it switch in opportunities into mons such as Heatran, while not fearing stealth rocks wearing it down. Furthermore, it's bulk is simply amazing; its able to avoid a 2HKO from Mega Metagross's meteor mash, a move that is well-known for striking fear into anything that doesn't resist it. This bulk also helps with numerous other physical attackers, and these include top tier threats such as mega Lopunny, Bisharp, Landorus t, Excadrill, and Tyranitar. It's movepool is nothing to scoff at, either. It has access to all the moves it needs: STAB. EQ for steels, toxic to wear down the bulky fat mons that switch into it, fire blast for the other steels that don't care about EQ, and dragon tail for phasing. All of these traits combined make chomp a solid a rank mon, but what pushes it to a+ imo is its ability, and it's ability to run effective offensive sets.
I'm only gonna briefly talk about rough skin, but basically when combined with a Rocky helmet, physical attackers are punished for 30% of their health. This includes things like TTar, Metagross, Lopunny, mega Gallade, and Bisharp. Even if knocked off it still checks the latter quite consistently, having the speed to outspeed it and kill with EQ. Rough skin also allows chomp to punish VoltTurn teams, as u turn is met my a hefty 30% + sr damage every time it makes contact with the shark, and chomp can pivot into a volt switch and block it, then double to a teammate to steal momentum back. All these things are still related to the defensive set I referred to above, and these combined traits make it an easy candidate for A+ rank.
As for its other sets, Garchomp has a very effective suicide lead set that can be found on numerous hyper offense builds. Top players such as CBB have used it to great effectiveness, and many other have as well, including myself. The SD. Lum set in particular is the most effective variant, because it is able to sr on many leads due to its great matchup vs most of them, and proceed to sd and apply immediate pressure to fat teams. Lum helps it set up vs Sab, while it also allows it to stay in on bulky waters and not fear a scald burn. Furthermore, Garchomp has a great speed tier, which, while not at the "baseline" of OU, it is still faster than a good portion if the metagame, and this enables it to potentially sweep late game should chomp be saved. It outspeeds key mons such as Zard x before a dd, mega Gardevoir, Landorus I, Excadrill, Bisharp, and mega Scizor. I bring these up because chomp is able to beat all of these 1v1. Chomp needs an SD for some of these, but by nature of its typing and bulk, it's not hard to set one up. This is especially important against fat teams, as Garchomp's ability to outspeed many mons found on these team archetypes allows it to nab a free sd on a predicted switch, and significantly cripple the switch in with a powerful EQ or d claw. Hippo is 2hkoed by +2 EQ, and the best it can do is whirlwind it out. Hell, mg Clefable actually loses 1v1 to a full health +2 chomp (it boosts when clef switches in btw) because it is easily 2HKOed by EQ and cannot OHKO back with Moonblast. Other fat mons like ferro, Gliscor, Rotom w, and Lando t are 2hkoed after an SD, and this makes Garchomp a potent wallbreaker that must be accounted for when teambuilding.
Given all of these postives, and very few actual flaws, Garchomp is more than deserving of A+ rank once again. No matter how hard you try, it will always adapt to the meta and secure its rightful place at the top of the rankings. This has been shown time and time again in gen 6. Stop trying to move it down lol; it'll only go back up.
This has already been brought up, but Garchomp really needs to go back up to A+.
Anyone who's been keeping up with SPL. And ladder trends for the past few weeks know that Garchomp has seen a surge in usage. And this surge in usage is completely justified. Most known for its bulky Rocky Helmet set, Garchomp is an excellent stealth rocker on balance and bulky offense teams by nature of its typing, bulk, and movepool. It's typing gives it key resistances to fire and rock type attack, which gives it switch in opportunities into mons such as Heatran, while not fearing stealth rocks wearing it down. Furthermore, it's bulk is simply amazing; its able to avoid a 2HKO from Mega Metagross's meteor mash, a move that is well-known for striking fear into anything that doesn't resist it. This bulk also helps with numerous other physical attackers, and these include top tier threats such as mega Lopunny, Bisharp, Landorus t, Excadrill, and Tyranitar. It's movepool is nothing to scoff at, either. It has access to all the moves it needs: STAB. EQ for steels, toxic to wear down the bulky fat mons that switch into it, fire blast for the other steels that don't care about EQ, and dragon tail for phasing. All of these traits combined make chomp a solid a rank mon, but what pushes it to a+ imo is its ability, and it's ability to run effective offensive sets.
I'm only gonna briefly talk about rough skin, but basically when combined with a Rocky helmet, physical attackers are punished for 30% of their health. This includes things like TTar, Metagross, Lopunny, mega Gallade, and Bisharp. Even if knocked off it still checks the latter quite consistently, having the speed to outspeed it and kill with EQ. Rough skin also allows chomp to punish VoltTurn teams, as u turn is met my a hefty 30% + sr damage every time it makes contact with the shark, and chomp can pivot into a volt switch and block it, then double to a teammate to steal momentum back. All these things are still related to the defensive set I referred to above, and these combined traits make it an easy candidate for A+ rank.
As for its other sets, Garchomp has a very effective suicide lead set that can be found on numerous hyper offense builds. Top players such as CBB have used it to great effectiveness, and many other have as well, including myself. The SD. Lum set in particular is the most effective variant, because it is able to sr on many leads due to its great matchup vs most of them, and proceed to sd and apply immediate pressure to fat teams. Lum helps it set up vs Sab, while it also allows it to stay in on bulky waters and not fear a scald burn. Furthermore, Garchomp has a great speed tier, which, while not at the "baseline" of OU, it is still faster than a good portion if the metagame, and this enables it to potentially sweep late game should chomp be saved. It outspeeds key mons such as Zard x before a dd, mega Gardevoir, Landorus I, Excadrill, Bisharp, and mega Scizor. I bring these up because chomp is able to beat all of these 1v1. Chomp needs an SD for some of these, but by nature of its typing and bulk, it's not hard to set one up. This is especially important against fat teams, as Garchomp's ability to outspeed many mons found on these team archetypes allows it to nab a free sd on a predicted switch, and significantly cripple the switch in with a powerful EQ or d claw. Hippo is 2hkoed by +2 EQ, and the best it can do is whirlwind it out. Hell, mg Clefable actually loses 1v1 to a full health +2 chomp (it boosts when clef switches in btw) because it is easily 2HKOed by EQ and cannot OHKO back with Moonblast. Other fat mons like ferro, Gliscor, Rotom w, and Lando t are 2hkoed after an SD, and this makes Garchomp a potent wallbreaker that must be accounted for when teambuilding.
Given all of these postives, and very few actual flaws, Garchomp is more than deserving of A+ rank once again. No matter how hard you try, it will always adapt to the meta and secure its rightful place at the top of the rankings. This has been shown time and time again in gen 6. Stop trying to move it down lol; it'll only go back up.
clone has p much hit the nail on the head with his paragraph regarding chomp. I agree on the movement to A+. Chomp provides an excellent defensive pivot for HO teams without making it balance. Access to Stealth Rock + Dragon Tail and Fire Blast breaks alot and opens many options for offense in OU. being able to switch in and wear down with Rough Skin + Helmet makes a somewhat soft check for Talon bar the willo / bulkup set. This set has been very prevalent in the ladder for the past 2 weeks and I think its for a legit reason.
Supporting Altaria to S for reasons probably already stated but most notably it's astounding versatility that I've seen in tournaments, it's possible sets ranging from offensive DD to bulky special, giving it very few hard checks/counters, combine that with a really solid typing, access to reliable recovery and room to pretty much always use it on its sets, just the right amount of movepool, and decent all around stats with a broken ass ability and you have a Pokemon that is pretty much guaranteed to be effective on most teams.
I think it deserves S.
I honestly dont understand mega-altaria to S. It's the jack of all trades, master of none, but in comparison to the other mons in S rank, it's not on the same level offensively, and I dont think that the unpredictability in its sets is enough to compensate the fact that, for a mega, it's fairly weak. Base 110 attack and special attack, while definitely not bad, is not all that great with all the power creep that has been happening lately. Having 75/110/105 bulk is pretty good, but it isn't overwhelmingly bulky. Common cores (ala slowbro + heatran/ferrothorn) will often be able to deal with it, base 80 speed is not very good and leaves it vulnerable to various mons that are more powerful than it.
Metagross is the only other mega currently in S-rank, so drawing on it for comparison, the only thing that altaria has over it is heal bell, recovery and the ability to go special. Frankly, the only reason I dont see this being an A-rank mon instead of an A+ rank mon is that all of it's sets are about A rank, and it's variety of options make it a bit better. As a dragon dancer, I find it underwhelming, and I feel both megas gyarados and charizard-x do it better, with better attack, and in charizards case a better ability, and in gyarados's case, the ability to break unaware mons, it's special set doesn't hit very hard on things like heatran (which requires investment in attack to OHKO with earthquake, taking evs out of bulk/speed/special attack). Going back to that Metagross point, Metagross can put in work in almost every game, whereas whatever set altaria is running doesn't work well vs 1 archtype at least. Dragon Dance sets wont do much to stall/balance, mixed/special sets wont be doing much to offense, the bulkier set will dislike stall, ext.
As for pixilate being a broken ability (the post above mine)... if it got a free life orb on all of it's moves, maybe, although I still think not, but it only gets that boost on its stabs, which will do little to all of it's checks.
I dont want this to come off as being just overly negative, but I dont see what it is that makes this mon above the megas of Charizard-x, Sableye, Diancie, Lopunny, and Slowbro. Because I feel that, while decent in theory, it's not that good in practice. Still a very good mon, but not better than all of the megas I just listed. Can someone explain to me why this is wrong, and altaria should move up? If you're running a mixed set (which most seem to be so that ferrothorn or heatran dont wall it), it's lost some bulk to one of them, has a decent number of checks, and has a mediocre speed tier, and each set is effected by matchup.
Concerning Thundurus-T, if it should move up an Agility set is probably the reason it should. It is closely comparable to RP Lando-I in the fact that they share the same speed tier. The Agili set has enough coverage and power to put in work against some defensive builds. Once it gets an Agility up, it can be hard for offense to check or revenge. Why you use it over Landorus-I, and to Srn's point, why would I use this over other Electric types? Well other Electrics types can't boost speed. Raikou can be revenge by Scarf Lando-T once set up, so can Mega Mane. Thundy-T isn't bothered by it once set up. Why use it over Thundurus-I? Well, as an Agility sweeper 145/101 is a just a better split 125/111. You'd rather have the extra 20 points of Special Attack and don't really care about the extra ten points of speed (what falls in between them at +2? I guess max speed AgiliCross and RP Diancie but most of those choose to run less speed). Finally, why use it over Lando-I? Well, Thundy-T has a better typing when at +2. It resists Bullet Punch and Brave Bird, allowing it to care about common users of those moves less as a result. When you consider those are two of the more common priority revenge killers these days it makes sense why you would use Thundy-T, especially if you are somewhat Talon-weak. So that is in my view the case for Thundy-T moving up. Nasty Plot really has trouble standing out over its counterpart and most other wallbreakers (the Therian form should almost always run Lefties btw. LO is ok but not great). Double Dance is an ok set but isn't much better than anything else in the nuetral-C ranks, and the restriction in coverage moves is actually does not bode well for it. You more often find yourself wanting that extra coverage than the extra boosting move. So yeah Thundurus-T could move up based on its Agility set but not the others. Just wanted to get that out there.
The fact that Slowbro can switch out does not change the fact that Thundy-T kills it, if we go that way then Megagross is not a counter to fairies because they will switch out.
Of course in a battle you will try to avoid something like letting your fairies out against a Megagross or your Slowbro against an electric type, we all know that, but a cheack is meant to do that anyways, pressuring your opponent because you can kill his mon or threaten it, the thing is that swiching out of some mons like Megagross or Thundy-T is not always easy because they pack a lot of power, switches don't come always free.
Not that I want Thundy-T to raise because Lando-I has more power than it, Thundy-I can run NP better because the difference in speed which lets it have an extra coverage move, and there are better electric types for pivoting, I agree that Scarf should be one of the best sets it has available tough.
My point is that saying that ''It does not counter/kill it because it will switch out'' can be applied to any mon, and if we go that way is like saying no pokemon can be checked or countered because they will switch out, not always the opponent will be able to switch out reliably, and as long as you are forcing it to switch or sometimes to sack the mon you are doing correctly the job of being a counter/check because most of the times this helps you to gain momentum.
The element of surprise should not be an argument for nominating something to D.... at all. Also I know we all love making nominations to cheese out 30+ likes but lets not state the obvious. We know what rough skin does lol that is a pretty obvious trait that isnt going to exactly tell us anything we aren't aware of. Granted we appreciate the nominations but let's ease up on the hype, bandwagon, and surprise factor. It's kind of a bit much at this point.
Tauros @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Zen Headbutt / Thunderbolt
- Earthquake / Rock Climb
While it seems really unorthodox and just plain bad, specially based mixed Tauros is viable in OU for two reasons: 1) It's a great lure to common physical walls such as Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, Skarmory, Chesnaught, Slowbro, and tank Garchomp who love to switch in to standard Tauros and 2) It has a great 110 speed tier. While on the surface, 40 base Spatk might not seem impressive, when you add together 240 Spatk EVs, Life Orb, Sheer Force, and high base power moves, the damage starts to add up. Take a look at these calcs:
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 307-364 (87.2 - 103.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 390-463 (102 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 265-315 (79.3 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 252-299 (66.3 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 374-442 (89 - 105.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So as you can see, Tauros actually hits its targets pretty hard. Being able to 1HKO/2HKO a lot of common walls or physical switchins is no problem for it. In my experience, people often switch in their physical walls to Tauros, which is why Tauros is such an effective lure. Almost no one expects it to pack Fire Blast and/or Ice Beam. Not only this, but his 110 speed tier allows Tauros to preform well vs offensive teams as well as balance teams with physical tanks. Tauros nets a lot of 1HKOs or 2HKOs on common offensive Pokemon such as Lati twins, Mega Metagross, Keldeo, Landorus, DD Mega Altaria, Bisharp, Gengar, Thundurus, and Mega Scizor for example. However, I would be lying if I said Tauros didn't have its significant shortcomings. Let's start with 4MSS - Fire Blast and Ice Beam are pretty mandatory, while Zen Headbutt is nice for Keldeo and Mega Venu, Tbolt is nice for Slowbro and birds, EQ is nice for Heatran, etc. If Tauros lacks EQ, its walled by Heatran. If no Zen Headbutt, Mega Venu walls it. If no Tbolt, Slowbro walls it. Not only this, but Tauros is rather frail and easy to revenge kill using strong priority, scarfers, or really anything faster than it. Finally, Tauros struggles to put a dent in a lot of stall teams. It can still lure Skarm or Slowbro, common Pokemon on stall, but thats about it. Chansey and Mega Sableye pretty much completely wall it, which can render Tauros almost useless if the stall player expects the set - but almost no one does, so Tauros being able to lure a few common stall Pokemon means it is not deadweight against stall. However, these flaws are relevant, and the reason why Im nominating Tauros for only D rank and not something higher. Tauros's success feeds off the element of surprise. Tauros removes physical walls through luring them like almost nothing else. It is not simply outclassed by something else, like how Pachirisu is directly outclassed by other Pokemon like Lanturn or Thundy-T - nothing lures physical walls and performs well vs balance and offense quite like Tauros does, meaning he has a useful niche and should be ranked. If you look at the definition of D rank, Tauros fits it pretty well.
This nom, especially with that set, makes this look good:
Smeargle @ power herb
EVs: 4 HP, 252 S.Atk, 252 Spe
Ability: Own Tempo
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Ice Beam
- Blue Flare
- Geomancy
It can't even 2HKO Keldeo at +2, and is OHKOed at +2 S.Def by specs Hydro Pump, not to mention Secret Sword.
Honestly, AM will you please make D-Rank's definition stricter to cut down on these pointless noms, and delete the posts if they keep happening? It doesn't help anyone, and hinders new players, as they might see these and think they're viable when that couldn't be further from the truth.
This nom, especially with that set, makes this look good:
Smeargle @ power herb
EVs: 4 HP, 252 S.Atk, 252 Spe
Ability: Own Tempo
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Ice Beam
- Blue Flare
- Geomancy
It can't even 2HKO Keldeo at +2, and is OHKOed at +2 S.Def by specs Hydro Pump, not to mention Secret Sword.
Honestly, AM will you please make D-Rank's definition stricter to cut down on these pointless noms, and delete the posts if they keep happening? It doesn't help anyone, and hinders new players, as they might see these and think they're viable when that couldn't be further from the truth.
I'll work something out and see if I can't implement it next update, which will be soon for those wondering. Working out a couple of reasonings and then you should expect that.
I honestly dont understand mega-altaria to S. It's the jack of all trades, master of none, but in comparison to the other mons in S rank, it's not on the same level offensively, and I dont think that the unpredictability in its sets is enough to compensate the fact that, for a mega, it's fairly weak. Base 110 attack and special attack, while definitely not bad, is not all that great with all the power creep that has been happening lately.
Altaria's offenses are very comparable to Keldeo, which is in S rank.
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 178-211 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 169-201 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I know most Altarias run Modest or Adamant but I wanted to show the power comparison without the + nature. Granted this is actually a flawed comparison since Keldeo's only viable sets run Timid while it's viable for Altaria to do otherwise, but I think these calcs get the point across. You can say that Keldeo's Specs set hits harder off the bat I suppose, but Altaria does have the ability to boost its attack in the form of Dragon Dance as well.
Having 75/110/105 bulk is pretty good, but it isn't overwhelmingly bulky. Common cores (ala slowbro + heatran/ferrothorn) will often be able to deal with it, base 80 speed is not very good and leaves it vulnerable to various mons that are more powerful than it.
I went over this before but fairy typing makes decent bulk pretty good. I don't think Clefable with 95/73/90 defenses actually has good bulk simply by statistical standards, but because it has such a great typing defensively, it is considered bulky or difficult to take down. Altaria shares this with Clefable because of an excellent defensive typing.
The speed I will definitely grant you and I think that is one of the stronger arguments for keeping Altaria out of S rank. It absolutely can boost with Dragon Dance but it does require a turn of setup, and can't set up in the face of something like Landorus or Metagross.
Metagross is the only other mega currently in S-rank, so drawing on it for comparison, the only thing that altaria has over it is heal bell, recovery and the ability to go special. Frankly, the only reason I dont see this being an A-rank mon instead of an A+ rank mon is that all of it's sets are about A rank, and it's variety of options make it a bit better. As a dragon dancer, I find it underwhelming, and I feel both megas gyarados and charizard-x do it better, with better attack, and in charizards case a better ability, and in gyarados's case, the ability to break unaware mons, it's special set doesn't hit very hard on things like heatran (which requires investment in attack to OHKO with earthquake, taking evs out of bulk/speed/special attack). Going back to that Metagross point, Metagross can put in work in almost every game, whereas whatever set altaria is running doesn't work well vs 1 archtype at least. Dragon Dance sets wont do much to stall/balance, mixed/special sets wont be doing much to offense, the bulkier set will dislike stall, ext.
I'd just like to point out that two pokemon that share the same rank don't have to be equally good, one can be a bit better than the other.
Also Altaria has Dragon Dance which is better than any boosting move Metagross has. I don't think Gyarados and Charizard outclass it as a DDer at all. Because of its typing it can set up on more things, and it can heal up mid sweep more easily as well. Gyarados definitely destroys stall a lot better but has no reliable recovery and Charizard is stronger but takes a ton of recoil and can't set up on quite as many things (i.e. Altaria sets up on Keldeo locked into Hydro Pump).
No need to run Atk to OHKO Heatrans: the majority of the fat ones don't run Flash Cannon so a 2HKO on bulky variants is fine. I suppose you run the risk of being toxic'd if you didn't catch it on the switch but yeah.
I think while its sets do have preferences in the playstyles they face, none are completely ineffective against something. Bulky won't be able to BREAK stall but it will allow you to combat stall thanks to stuff like Heal Bell. Dragon Dance sets (definitely a threat vs balance, lol what?) can actually beat Unaware mons like Quagsire with a bit of prior damage and Clefable after rocks, so its matchup against Stall isn't the worst although Skarm does wall it without Fire Blast. Mixed and special sets can still do work against offense. I will concede the general point as Metagross functions very well against all playstyles and Altaria's sets are a bit more matchup dependent, but I think you are exaggerating the dependence.
As for pixilate being a broken ability (the post above mine)... if it got a free life orb on all of it's moves, maybe, although I still think not, but it only gets that boost on its stabs, which will do little to all of it's checks.
I dont want this to come off as being just overly negative, but I dont see what it is that makes this mon above the megas of Charizard-x, Sableye, Diancie, Lopunny, and Slowbro. Because I feel that, while decent in theory, it's not that good in practice. Still a very good mon, but not better than all of the megas I just listed. Can someone explain to me why this is wrong, and altaria should move up? If you're running a mixed set (which most seem to be so that ferrothorn or heatran dont wall it), it's lost some bulk to one of them, has a decent number of checks, and has a mediocre speed tier, and each set is effected by matchup.
I'll admit I've started to lean toward Altaria staying in A+, but this post just bothered me because I didn't agree with a lot of the arguments.
If I had to outline the basic arguments for both sides it would look like this:
Rise to S:
Versatility in sets - offensive, defensive, special, physical, mixed, support, sweeper
Great/unique typing means it has certain advantages over pokemon that play similar roles so it isn't outclassed in them
Stay in A+:
While versatile, none of its sets individually are as difficult to counter as Metagross or Landorus
Mediocre speed without a boost means it's threatened by a lot of things naturally
