Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[leremyju]

90/105/105 bulk is nothing to laugh at although it's typing defensively sucks. 100% accurate Blizzards from 132 base special attack is nothing to laugh at either. It has an extremely powerful ice shard which is really useful but it finds difficulty switching in when it needs to take rocks and other hits. It's definitely worth D seeing it has a niche of Grass Ice typing which helps it get past bulky waters. It does do a specific task of beating things like Lando, dragons, etc..

I know MegaMogwai has used it in his videos, and to some success.

 

[Dark G]

I know this has been touched on already but Magneton needs to go down...like way down. It's only niche over magnezone was being able to check Greninja back when that was in the meta. I can't see a reason why you'd want to run that over Magnezone now except to maybe outspeed Starmie which isn't enough of a reason it should be ranked that high. I think it should be demoted to D rank

 

[Eraxxer]

it's not laughable by any means, but it doesn't mean it's good, especially considering the opponent will usually be getting the first hit off due to its trash speed.
i can't say i particularly agree with the reasoning of "getting past bulky waters", because so do kyube (fusion bolt), mamo (freeze dry) and glalie (freeze dry). while it does have an easier time with waters due to resistance, but that doesnt change that its TERRIBLE typing overall due to the presence of fire, flying, fighting, and steel type moves paired with its cripplingly low speed. outclassed as an ice type, outclassed as a water type, and uses up the mega slot. honestly just use kyube

252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Abomasnow hits harder on the special side with Blizzard (ignoring residual Hail damage) and we're talking about Trick Room here, which turns its speed into a strength. Obviously as I said it's not going to be in TR all the time, but when it is it outslows everything and whacks them all super hard. Someone also asked for a set, I like 140 Attack, 252 Special attack, rest in HP and Quiet. It is guaranteed to OHKO Specially Defensive Heatran from full and then hits as hard as possible with Blizzard. It's not as good as Kyubes but I wouldn't say they're directly comparable.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

About Abomasnow, Shaymin and Magneton:

Abomasnow should stay unranked. First of all, the only possible viable set would be with heavy Trick Room support because right now, with Hail not being permanent anymorem, is the only niche that Mega Abomasnow could only have. Second, Trick Room teams are barely viable in OU; actually is like a gimmick that works in certain teams because Trick Room made teams based on speed in a big disadvantage. Third, Mega Abomasnow is a Mega: this means that you can't use another better Mega if you use Mega Abomasnow. There's M Sableye, with his excellent (for TR) 20 Base Speed, Mega Slowbro with 30 Base Speed, CM, insanely high Defense and being inmune to crit hax, Heracross, whose is a wallbrekaer that in Trick Room can underspeed a lot fo walls that he destroy, Camerupt who has better typing and Sheer Force Flamethrower and Earth Power and Ampharos who has insane Special Attack , great typing and momentum.

The majority of those TR Megas (basically all except Camerupt) are able to fucntion outside Trick Room. Some of them have little issues (M Heracross being outspeed to certain walls at minimum speed) but they work.

About Shaymin, IIRC (from memory) Shaymin got unranked when Celebi (and Jirachi) was unviable when Aegislash was in OU. Actually, celebi is in A rank.

I think that Shaymin is outclassed by Celebi, who has better typing (it hasn 2 more weakness, but Celebi has 2 key resistances), a way better movepool (Thunder Wave, Recover, Hela Bell, Calm Mind, ...) and a better offensive movepool with 2 STABS. But I think this set could be viable
Shaymin @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
EV: 252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Spd
Ability: Natural Cure Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)/Modest (+SpA, -Atk)
-Seed Flare
-Psychic/HP Fire
-Earth Power
-Hp Fire/Psychic/Rest/Air Slash

The reason it could be viable is because Seed Flare causes that, if they hit with a drop (there's a decent chance) causes that for example, it has high chances of 2HKO Mega Metagross, the most potent Pokemon of the metagame. (Guarantee with Choice Specs or by simply hit Metagross with SR once).
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 195-230 (64.7 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I nominate it for D rank.

And about Magneton, it was ranked B- solely for Greninja, who was centralizing the OU metagame since they got Gunk Shot and Low Kick, who broke Greninja. Right now, greninja is gone. It has the niche of outspeed Starmie, Tornadus-T and Raikou, but Magnezone can win agaisnt Tornadus-T and specially Starmie, and Magneton has already a bad match up with Raikou.

For me, I drop it to C-rank.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Abomasnow hits harder on the special side with Blizzard (ignoring residual Hail damage) and we're talking about Trick Room here, which turns its speed into a strength. Obviously as I said it's not going to be in TR all the time, but when it is it outslows everything and whacks them all super hard. Someone also asked for a set, I like 140 Attack, 252 Special attack, rest in HP and Quiet. It is guaranteed to OHKO Specially Defensive Heatran from full and then hits as hard as possible with Blizzard. It's not as good as Kyubes but I wouldn't say they're directly comparable.

The power difference between the two is negligible for the most part though, also I would much rather use my mega slot on things like Mega Slowbro, Mega Ampharos, or Mega Camerupt for my trick room team

 

[firehusky]

Pairing Hawlucha with 1-2 wallbreakers and predicting accordingly alleviates Hawlucha's inability to sweep in certain matchups. Landorus-I and Taunt +3 atks Gar are two examples of potent wallbreakers that have proved to be incredibly difficult to switch into and can easily remove passive mons like Hippowdon and Slowbro that can stomach Hawlucha's STABS. Landorus-T is also by no means an answer to Hawlucha and is actually often used as set-up fodder for luchador which is another reason why it should rise being how prevalent Lando-T is in the current meta (Gliscor which has been rising in usage, is also a liability for your opponent when you run Hawlucha).

And why would anybody attempt to set up SD's on Thundy-I with Lucha? Simply get up rocks and either remove it with teammates or get behind a sub, weaken it with HJK's and then proceed to switch Lucha out for a later sweep. The former is the easiest approach to deal with Thundy-I tho.

Hawlucha is best used either in the late-game when you've removed or weakened said counters/checks or when you have a favorable team matchup and your opponent doesn't come prepared (which happens often due to this mon being soo slept on!!). I'd like to see Hawlucha to be promoted to atleast B+, although I personally feel it's good enough for A-.

Landorus-I kinda pairs well with anything tbh, the thing just rips through so many cores like nothing. Lando-T set up fodder for Hawlucha?

+3 252 Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 162-192 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 126-149 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 276-325 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and if we're talking about scarfed variants, that's a solid 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 150-177 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hawlucha needs to set up two swords dances, activate it's sitrus berry, and only 2HKO Lando-T with a 110 BP move with STAB. That's pretty weak tbh. I'll agree that specially defensive gliscor is set up fodder for hawlucha, but being able to set up on one common mon isn't a reason for it to move up at all. I'm not talking about trying to set up on Thundy, that's just retarded. I probably phrased it wrong, but what I meant to say is that thundy checks hawlucha, so the fact that hawlucha can beat offense doesn't really matter when thundy is so common on it. Getting behind a sub, weakening it with HJK, and then switching out lucha for a later sweep may sound like a good idea, but that may often force hawlucha to lose it's unburden boost, or otherwise get paralyzed by prankster t-wave. All thundy really has to do is break it's sub with t bolt, and then go thunder wave, forcing it out. Removing or weakening said checks or counters, or having a favorable team matchup isn't really special to hawlucha, if something like mega sharpedo has it's checks and counters weakened, and has a favorable team match up, it can sweep teams too. Hawlucha to A-? Uh no. There's no way something like hawlucha is up in A- with metagame influencing pokemon such as kyu-b and mega gallade. The recent update by the council dropped Hawlucha to B, and it doesn't really make much sense to nominate it higher than it's former ranking of B+, to A-, considering it was literally dropped like 4 days ago.

I'll tag AM as he can explain it much better than me and knows much more about hawlucha and the metagame, and can probably tell you something about why it dropped, and why it should definitely not rise.

 

[MrAldo]

I dont see how Magneton only niche was being able to check Greninja. Of course it was the main reason (a really good reason) but considering is one of the few mons that can check every talonflame variant consistently (magnezone and raikou down right loses to SD) and outspeed pretty amazing pokemon in the metagame atm like starmie, tornadus-t and M-Altaria at +1 if adamant. And less relevant ones but lets not add them cause they are not so prevalent. Ofc Magneton it shouldnt the main choice for checking this mons but it can work as an emergency call.

Magneton should certainly drop cause Magnezone dropped, they suffer from the exact same problems but saying it should drop all the way down to D is pretty unrealistic. Down to C+ or C at most if you pressure me.

Mega Abomasnow stays unranked: I play trick room, and I would never consider Mega Abomasnow for a trick room team due to its nasty SR weakness and when I have to support a mon with hazard removal in a style I need to make the most of my TR turns, it is certainly not worth it. Being weak to most priority except for Aqua Jet is worse for its case. Sorry, but there is no reason of using Mega Abomasnow in this time and age.

Shaymin... sincerely I would use offensive shaymin over offensive celebi any day of my life, running offensive celebi with that pursuit weakness and no baton pass sucks, but I dont good level replays to back this nomination so I will stay out of this for now. But I feel it deserves to be ranked.

 

[Eraxxer]

The power difference between the two is negligible for the most part though, also I would much rather use my mega slot on things like Mega Slowbro, Mega Ampharos, or Mega Camerupt for my trick room team

The power difference is pretty big considering the Hail damage every turn plus the initial power difference. Plus, Abomasnow isn't losing Life Orb HP each turn which isn't a big deal but it's still pretty helpful. Also, Mega Abomasnow is completely different to those Pokemon you said, who says you can't use Abomasnow instead of those Pokemon? I'm not arguing that it's better than them, but them being better than it in some or even a lot of situations doesn't mean it has no viability. See: Mega Latios.

 

[AM]

M-Medicham: C+ to B-

For the sake of putting getting this on the next slate we would also like some discussion on M-Medicham if it warrants a raise. Originally when ORAS arrived M-Gallade was introduced and as such the hype of M-Gallade in the idea that it completely outclasses M-Medicham was established. Fast forward to now and we would like to think that this is false due to M-Medichams much more immediate power, access to two moves of priority, and the ability to break down balanced and defensive builds much more quickly without the necessity to set up. The question more or less the ranking team is wondering is if the idea that M-Medicham is outclassed in certain aspects enough to keep it as low as it is on the ranking slate, or does it have enough redeeming qualities where its placement should be evaluated for a higher rank when looking at what else occupies said ranks.

In regards to Hawlucha it dropped because over time it has become more difficult to pull off sweeps in a consistent manner where general Balance builds can stomach hits and incorporate various tools to deter a Hawlucha sweep such as bulkier Fairies, offenses use of powerful priority users, and the necessity of Hawlucha getting most times one shot to sweep puts a noticeable amount of pressure on it. However.....

I'll tag AM as he can explain it much better than me and knows much more about hawlucha and the metagame, and can probably tell you something about why it dropped, and why it should definitely not rise.

This last statement isn't true at all because many of the rankings we come to a conclusion is based on comparisons between others who occupy the same, lower, or higher rank. We look at the offensive and defensive capabilities along with aspect of centralization and efficiency not only in just one set but its efficiency to accomplish multiple sets and roles in correlation to the meta-game and the burden it places on team-building. Anything is subject to change in the long run and falls under the discussion slate that has been set forth anyways. Depending on who you ask there will always be a should, should not rise or drop for certain Pokemon but I think it's unfair to say that there is going to be a definite simply cause we changed its ranking. Feel free to discuss Hawlucha's placement as well.

Edit: A- for Hawlucha is really high though for whoever nommed that. I definitely wouldn't agree with that.

 

[Anduril]

The power difference is pretty big considering the Hail damage every turn plus the initial power difference. Plus, Abomasnow isn't losing Life Orb HP each turn which isn't a big deal but it's still pretty helpful. Also, Mega Abomasnow is completely different to those Pokemon you said, who says you can't use Abomasnow instead of those Pokemon? I'm not arguing that it's better than them, but them being better than it in some or even a lot of situations doesn't mean it has no viability. See: Mega Latios.

Abomasnow honestly takes way too much support to be used and has a defensive typing that sucks. Kyu-B is better in every regard save power, but that is negligible when you consider that while Kyu-B is slow, it at least has notable resistances and decent speed. 132 Attack and Special attack seem good, but when you take into account that Abomasnow can't hold damage-boosting item it's power is lacking. Like MrAldo said, there are many better TR abusers out there, and Kyu-B is a better ice type than Abomasnow. Hail damage isn't that relevant is it is only 6% and hurts teammates more than it helps them. For instance, Tyranitar isn't ranked for Sandstorm damage, it is ranked for being a strong special tank and scarfer. Abomasnow has no niche in OU and should not be ranked.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

The power difference is pretty big considering the Hail damage every turn plus the initial power difference. Plus, Abomasnow isn't losing Life Orb HP each turn which isn't a big deal but it's still pretty helpful. Also, Mega Abomasnow is completely different to those Pokemon you said, who says you can't use Abomasnow instead of those Pokemon? I'm not arguing that it's better than them, but them being better than it in some or even a lot of situations doesn't mean it has no viability. See: Mega Latios.

A difference of 7% is really not that much, and Mega Abomasnow isn't really all that different from all of the pokemon I listed (Well maybe Mega Slowbro), they are all Slow as balls special wallbreakers, and can preform sweeping roles in Trick Room, problem is that these two do the job better, and while this one isn't as big of a concern, but these megas also don't hurt your Trick Room setter when you want to put it back up, and they aren't weak to Stealth Rock

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

so uh haha b and b- ranks! cool

this may be kinda controversial, but i'd like to nomiate mega-garchomp from b- to c+. chomp is a really good mixed wallbreaker with great offensive and defensive typing, great bulk, and still kinda good speed. as vanilla garchomp has gotten mega-chomp due to the increased viability of the rockyhelmet rocksetter set, which increases its already large opportunity cost combined with being a mega. m-chomp is let down by its super underwhelming speed with no boosting moves, very situational ability, inability to hold an item to boost its attacks, and having very common weaknesses in fairy/ice/dragon.
it faces huge competition from kyurem-b, who doesn't take up a mega slot (and being able to hold an item, by that extent), a great ability that allows it to get past things like m-venu, rotom-w, or mamoswine, while also having reliable recover in the form of roost. garchomp has a notable niche over kyube, though, as it has a far easier time beating (mega) scizor and ferrothorn, while also being stronger on sand-teams.
i personally can't see chomp on b-, due to being generally overshadowed as a mixed attacker by kyube, taking up a mega slot, and vanilla chomp being better.

also, why hasn't base garchomp moved up what...

The bolded is false actually. Vanilla garchomp has swords dance so mega learns it as well. Also while I do agree vanilla chomp is better vanilla and mega chomp have totally different roles so they aren't actually too comparable aside from both being named garchomp. The large opportunity cost thing you said can be said about mega latios as well and every dragon is weak to fairy/dragon/ice not just mega chomp. It has a ton of niches over kyu-b as well such as a resistance to SR instead of a weakness to it,access to fire blast and stab earthquake. Besides the meta is kinder to it as bulkier teams and balanced have started popping up and neither can stop mega chomp's sheer strength through cracking them open.

Edit: Can someone explain why magneton hasn't dropped? It outpaces 115s and torn-t but if you ask me that's one small niche and as I mentioned before magneton is a lot less bulky then zone but there power difference isn't that big

 

[Eraxxer]

A difference of 7% is really not that much, and Mega Abomasnow isn't really all that different from all of the pokemon I listed (Well maybe Mega Slowbro), they are all Slow as balls special wallbreakers, and can preform sweeping roles in Trick Room, problem is that these two do the job better, and while this one isn't as big of a concern, but these megas also don't hurt your Trick Room setter when you want to put it back up, and they aren't weak to Stealth Rock

Difference is that Mega Abomasnow has STAB priority and goes mixed very well. It also hits a lot harder than Mega Ampharos. Being weak to Stealth Rock is definitely annoying with no real recovery, not going to lie, but that doesn't stop Thundurus, Entei, Houndoom etc. from being ranked. Obviously it's not really comparable to these in many other ways but in this respect being weak to stealth rock doesn't instantly mean it's unviable. Ice STAB is so good in this meta and having Grass STAB to hit waters makes it better. Having this STAB combination and still being able to OHKO Heatran is really handy. Mega Aboma's Blizzard pretty much the strongest Ice attack in the game (barring mega Glalie and probably some specs/band users), and in this meta that's amazing.

 

[Vxy]

I think Mega Medicham should rise to B- honestly. In early ORAS Mega Gallade was hyped (a lot) and as such people thought Medicham was almost completely outclassed aside from more immediate power and Fake Out to Mega evolve safely. Now that the hype has died down significantly (which is true as nobody seems to disagree with Gallade dropping to A-), I think we can now realize that the extra immediate power Mega Medicham has over Mega Gallade is really noticeable. I think people just exaggerated how outclassed it is when in actuality the difference between having to set up and not having to set up is pretty big, as stupid as that sounds.

Mega Medicham greatly benefits from the decline of Mega Sableye's usage, who is nowhere near as common as it used to be before the Metagross suspect test (probably because of more hype but w/e). With Mega Sableye being pretty rare on the types of teams Mega Medicham destroys (stall) it can go back to doing its job, which is just clicking High Jump Kick and watching stuff die. While the rise of Landorus-I doesn't really help it (lol what a trolly speed tier...), Mega Medicham is first and foremost a wallbreaker and with its best counter nowhere to be seen Medicham can actually demolish stall teams. Even though offense is probably the playstyle it struggles with the most it's not complete deadweight against that either as it can safely Mega evolve like how Lopunny does with Fake Out and can use Bullet Punch to revenge kill weakened things as well as things weak to it like Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria once it's weakened a bit. Also in my usage Scarf Landorus-T has went down in usage due to the rise of Landorus-I (who is actually a pretty good wallbreaking/sweeping partner).

Also AM touched a bit on how Mega Medicham can destroy balanced and stall cores quicker than Mega Gallade which is true. While Mega Gallade can set up and has the bulk to do so, it really doesn't want to be taking hits because I've used it before and I find against balanced teams you can set up on something, kill something, only to be forced out by the next thing that comes in which is just a waste of a turn for Swords Dance. Mega Medicham does have a similar problem of killing something and being forced out but imo it doesn't seem as big of a problem because it doesn't have to set up to demolish balanced cores. Against stall however this is kind of a moot point for both as only Mega Sableye and maybe Mega Slowbro can actually force them out but balanced especially (where Unaware Clefable is really common) Mega Medicham has the upperhand imo. Also if you're worried about Slowbro use Thunder Punch over Ice Punch and pair it up with something that can handle Gliscor and Landorus (-T), such as HP Ice Landorus-I who can lure them both.

Also another thing people tend to overlook is that Mega Medicham has Baton Pass and it can use that really well because of the switches it forces as more often than not your opponent won't expect Baton Pass and....well, you know the drill. It gains momentum blah blah blah.

 

[leremyju]

AM I nomitaed Hawlucha for B+ not A-, It was Neil. I just think that with more sand offense being used and Hawlucha having the ability to set up and then dent a team is really good ri

it's not laughable by any means, but it doesn't mean it's good, especially considering the opponent will usually be getting the first hit off due to its trash speed.
i can't say i particularly agree with the reasoning of "getting past bulky waters", because so do kyube (fusion bolt), mamo (freeze dry) and glalie (freeze dry). while it does have an easier time with waters due to resistance, but that doesnt change that its TERRIBLE typing overall due to the presence of fire, flying, fighting, and steel type moves paired with its cripplingly low speed. outclassed as an ice type, outclassed as a water type, and uses up the mega slot. honestly just use kyube

Against bulkier mons in balance (Slowbro, Hippo, etc..) Mega Abomasnow does not need the speed and offensive mons don't like switching in. Abomasnow is able to stay in on some weaker attackers and is able to fire off moves versus bulkier mons. The only problem is that it needs to switch out versus things that can actually hit it. It has speed and is worn down by rocks, but it can switch in on bulky mons and once it is in on a bulky mon that can't quite touch it, the opponent either has a severely dented pokemon or sacs something. Also, Abomasnow is not a Water type.

I can agree with Medicham at B- but the reasons above are false, Sabeleye is on many stall teams

 

[Kurona]

The problem I have with Mega Medicham rising is that this discussion is taking place right after Mega Gallade dropped -- from what I can gather, Mega Gallade dropped due to it's ineffectiveness against stall 'mon like Mega Sableye and it's ultimate reliance on team support to get rid of Burns, Talonflame etc. Mega Medicham to me suffers from the exact same problems; and this is why I'm starting to really not like the "outclassed by mega gallade" argument regardless of the side you take -- even if Galladite was not introduced to the metagame, Medichamite still took a really big hit from ORAS. Mega Sableye, the increased opportunity cost of a mega slot, the increased opportunity cost of being a wallbreaker at all - OU has a ridiculous amount of those rn - Burns being commonplace and it's inability to switch in are all points against Medicham which took place in ORAS (yes I know Burns were here before; but they seemed to become commonplace with Sablenite's Will-o and Slowbronite's scald). The most prominent of these however is indeed the buffs Stall got. Sableye as I've stated like nine million times lol just ruins Medicham's day while it also doesn't appreciate Slowbronite and Altarianite. Hell, fairies getting more members and more common in general really hurts it's effectiveness, not to mention the slight speed creep.
Is this reason enough to keep it from going to B-? I dunno. I just wanted to make sure people don't just come from the angle of "Outclassed by Mega Gallade" or "being outclassed by Mega Gallade is not a good reason/it's not outclassed". I would however like to note that I find it ironic it's being promoted for a raise when Galladite just dropped for the reason of having problems Medichamite also suffers from, and that it's difficult for me to see it on the level of effectiveness of other 'mon in B-. I do think this will make for an interesting discussion though.

 

[leremyju]

it's outclassed as an ice type, outclassed as a water type

This is wat u said sir

With Mega Sableye being pretty rare on the types of teams Mega Medicham destroys (stall) it can go back to doing its job, which is just clicking High Jump Kick and watching stuff die.

This is false. Medicham is better against balance and bulkier teams; Sableye is on most stall teams.

Reading is essential kids

And for the above, Medicham is rising because it has more immediate power than Gallade and smack balance teams faster.

 

[firehusky]

Besides Slowbro, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Sableye, most teams actually forget about this thing and rarely lack switch ins to it. Dual priority (fake out + bullet punch) is also nice for finishing threats off at ~30%, while also being able to revenge kill rp diancie and offensive dd mega altaria after taking like 25% prior damage. Bulkier teams really lack an answer to this, and the extra immediate power is actually very important in cases where mega gallade cannot set up, as mega medicham can be more of a nuke / hit and run attacker. Not being walled by unaware clefable is also pretty cool, and mega medicham is just a really cool physical wallbreaker mega that is pretty underrated atm. Mega Sableye has been decreasing in usage because of pokemon such as mega diancie, mega altaria, and lando-i getting very common, and this is in the advantage of mega medicham as mega sableye just walls it. I guess mega gallade also enjoys the decreased usage in mega sableye, but it has much more switch ins than mega medicham at +0 due to it's worse immediate power.

Having fake out to mega evolve safely, the ability to revenge kill threats with the combination of bullet punch + fake out, and having much more immediate power are some advantages mega medicham has over mega gallade, while mega gallade has access to SD, knock off to hit bulky psychics, and a better speed tier. Just trying to point out that mega medicham isn't as sucky as some people think, and isn't straight up outclassed by mega gallade. I guess being able to run adamant on mega medicham is also pretty nice; it's more of a wallbreaker so it doesn't really need that extra speed and adamant hits like nuke, while still outspeeding all relevant walls.

So yeah, supporting mega medicham to rise.

nuke em ghandi

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 220-261 (65.8 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 271-321 (90 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 169-199 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 212-249 (66.4 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 297-351 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 264-312 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 274-324 (90.4 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 288-340 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 170-201 (43.1 - 51%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

^ pretty impressive if you ask me.

 

[Kurona]

Oh, and in reference to Mega Abomasnow, I'm sorry but I simply don't see it going on the list. It's one possible niche is Trick Room, and the problem I have with that is that for a Mega, it's mixed attacking stats are... decent, but nothing to write home about, especially with no item or ability to boost them, and as noted Ampharos and Camerupt generally perform better on Trick Room due to their superior Offensive and/or Defensive typing with much better offensive stats and abilities, not to mention they perform well outside of Trick Room. Yes, I realize that of those Abomasnow has different STAB and mixed offensive prowess, but... is that really appreciated that much? Especially when the slot for Trick Room is much pricier in ORAS. I would like to see a realistic scenario in which Abomasnow is chosen over Camerupt or Ampharos. In addition, it is weak to all common forms of priority aside from Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch. The amount of support it requires compared to it's peers - especially for a trick room mon - the amount of competition it faces, what little it has to offer to the team and it's general mediocrity means I cannot see it anywhere near the rankings any time soon.
But hey, I'm probably being an idiot and missing something -- however, the burden of truth is on you, the one nominating it to provide high-quality replays and reasons as to what makes it effective.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

astroboy the reason mega latios gets hated on so much is it's gigantic opportunity cost and it's bulk is barely better then vanilla latias. The reason mega latias is more viable is that the bulk difference between regular and mega latias is pretty noticable and it's one of the only counters to lando-I

 

[Dark G]

Landorus-I kinda pairs well with anything tbh, the thing just rips through so many cores like nothing. Also Taunt + 3 attacks Gatr is ass. Lando-T set up fodder for Hawlucha?

+3 252 Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 162-192 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 126-149 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 276-325 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and if we're talking about scarfed variants, that's a solid 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 150-177 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hawlucha needs to set up two swords dances, activate it's sitrus berry, and only 2HKO Lando-T with a 110 BP move with STAB. That's pretty weak tbh. I'll agree that specially defensive gliscor is set up fodder for hawlucha, but being able to set up on one common mon isn't a reason for it to move up at all. I'm not talking about trying to set up on Thundy, that's just retarded. I probably phrased it wrong, but what I meant to say is that thundy checks hawlucha, so the fact that hawlucha can beat offense doesn't really matter when thundy is so common on it. Getting behind a sub, weakening it with HJK, and then switching out lucha for a later sweep may sound like a good idea, but that may often force hawlucha to lose it's unburden boost, or otherwise get paralyzed by prankster t-wave. All thundy really has to do is break it's sub with t bolt, and then go thunder wave, forcing it out. Removing or weakening said checks or counters, or having a favorable team matchup isn't really special to hawlucha, if something like mega sharpedo has it's checks and counters weakened, and has a favorable team match up, it can sweep teams too. Hawlucha to A-? Uh no. There's no way something like hawlucha is up in A- with metagame influencing pokemon such as kyu-b and mega gallade. The recent update by the council dropped Hawlucha to B, and it doesn't really make much sense to nominate it higher than it's former ranking of B+, to A-, considering it was literally dropped like 4 days ago.

I'll tag AM as he can explain it much better than me and knows much more about hawlucha and the metagame, and can probably tell you something about why it dropped, and why it should definitely not rise.

I was referring to Gengar when I said Gar...not Feraligatr. Taunt +3Atks Gar is far from ass and can cause alot of problems for common defensive cores that involve members that give Hawlucha problems such as Slowbro. A solid Wallbreaker is vital when using Hawlucha to its full potential and Gengar/Lando-I fit that role perfectly.

Defensive Lando-T really doesn't play out like that in practice. It is used to check a plethora of offensive threats and will typically be weakened enough by the mid-late game where Hawlucha thrives. Something as simple as knocking off Lando-T's item and setting up rocks makes those calcs irrelevant.

The mere presence of Hawlucha causes problems for Scarf Lando-T as it can't safely check things with earthquake due to fearing Hawlucha coming in after and either setting up an SD or subbing in its face. Stone Edge is also not a solid 2HKO when we factor in Sitrus berry and even then Hawlucha can SD on the turn it goes for Stone-Edge, aswell as activating unburden from the damage it caused. From there you can either opt to to sub fishing for Stone Miss to do what it does best or just go for the acrobatics kill if it is in kill range.

+1 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 226-267 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That calc is relevant in my experience due to how many times Scarf-Lando likes to come in on stealth rocks and spams u-turn. Getting it into that range is quite easy.

Hawlucha always wins the matchup if Lando-T comes in on it on the turn it either SD's or subs. If it SD's then Hawlucha can kill it with two acrobatics and if it subs then hawlucha is guaranteed +3 granted no crits occur. Scarf-Lando-T isn't an answer to Hawlucha

Gliscor isn't the only thing Lucha has the possibility of setting up on. Lando-T (both variants), M-Sableye, and Hippowdon (If it's last mon'd or if it doesn't carry whirlwind) can all be threatened by Lucha.

In regards to Hawlucha it dropped because over time it has become more difficult to pull off sweeps in a consistent manner where general Balance builds can stomach hits and incorporate various tools to deter a Hawlucha sweep such as bulkier Fairies, offenses use of powerful priority users, and the necessity of Hawlucha getting most times one shot to sweep puts a noticeable amount of pressure on it.

By bulkier fairies were you referring solely to M-Altaria because Clefable has been extremely common since XY. Shouldn't Hawlucha have been demoted to B rank in XY then? And from my experience with Lucha, it has generally always has gotten only one chance of sweeping due to how weak its attacks are unboosted, and its one-time-use item and ability.

 

[Celticpride]

When it comes to Medicham being more of an instant starter than Gallade, the difference is noticable when you consider neither has fantastic bulk or typing. Take bulky Mega Altaria for example:

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 160-190 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 106-126 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Gallade has to eat a turn to set up an SD on the turn Alt switches in, and has to take a Hyper Voice on the following turn that has a decent chance to OHKO. That calc is probably cherry picked and very convenient, but it does show the advantage that Medi has in that it applies more instant pressure due to immediate power. Another minor point is that Medi has a two free moveslots outside of STABs where Gallade only has one. Medi also has a pretty wide movepool to make use of that extra moveslot. Even PuP actually closes the gap to a degree, as +1 Mega Medi outdamages +2 Mega Gallade iirc. Sure Sableye blocks PuP but Gallade sure as heck isn't SDing on Sableye either. Medicham rising isn't as crazy as it sounds, especially because Gallade would still be a whole sub rank higher.

 

[firehusky]

yeah sorry, I know I misread and thought you said 3 attacks + taunt gatr, lol.
A solid wallbreaker is vital for using hawlucha, but it requires lots of team support. Other late game set up sweepers such as BD azu don't require that much support, while also being able to do stuff besides belly drum. Obviously if your opponent's only answer to hawlucha is lando-t, he won't let it get weakened. The fact that lando-t could get weakened by the lategame doesn't change the fact that it can still check hawlucha. That's like saying in practice heatran isn't a zard x counter because it's used to check many pokemon such as talonflame and latios, so it'll get worn down to the point that +1 zard x can break past it. Being able to set up on gliscor, lando-t + non hp ice lando-i, sableye and non whirlwind hippowdon also isn't really that special considering other pokemon such as SD gliscor can also do it.

 

[Roxachronic]

Shaymin has Earth Power, something Serperior would kill for, as well as being a status absorber thanks to Natural Cure, and the ability to heal off LO damage (which I personally think is better than Specs) with either Rest or Synthesis. I could see Shaymin getting at least C rank. I know I've seen a few people using it in the past.

I think the extra speed, and a much better STAB that you can spam that lets you go at +2 is more useful, Earth Power is useful for Heatran, but Serperior has a

About Abomasnow, Shaymin and Magneton:

Abomasnow should stay unranked. First of all, the only possible viable set would be with heavy Trick Room support because right now, with Hail not being permanent anymorem, is the only niche that Mega Abomasnow could only have. Second, Trick Room teams are barely viable in OU; actually is like a gimmick that works in certain teams because Trick Room made teams based on speed in a big disadvantage. Third, Mega Abomasnow is a Mega: this means that you can't use another better Mega if you use Mega Abomasnow. There's M Sableye, with his excellent (for TR) 20 Base Speed, Mega Slowbro with 30 Base Speed, CM, insanely high Defense and being inmune to crit hax, Heracross, whose is a wallbrekaer that in Trick Room can underspeed a lot fo walls that he destroy, Camerupt who has better typing and Sheer Force Flamethrower and Earth Power and Ampharos who has insane Special Attack , great typing and momentum.

The majority of those TR Megas (basically all except Camerupt) are able to fucntion outside Trick Room. Some of them have little issues (M Heracross being outspeed to certain walls at minimum speed) but they work.

About Shaymin, IIRC (from memory) Shaymin got unranked when Celebi (and Jirachi) was unviable when Aegislash was in OU. Actually, celebi is in A rank.

I think that Shaymin is outclassed by Celebi, who has better typing (it hasn 2 more weakness, but Celebi has 2 key resistances), a way better movepool (Thunder Wave, Recover, Hela Bell, Calm Mind, ...) and a better offensive movepool with 2 STABS. But I think this set could be viable
Shaymin @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
EV: 252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Spd
Ability: Natural Cure Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)/Modest (+SpA, -Atk)
-Seed Flare
-Psychic/HP Fire
-Earth Power
-Hp Fire/Psychic/Rest/Air Slash

The reason it could be viable is because Seed Flare causes that, if they hit with a drop (there's a decent chance) causes that for example, it has high chances of 2HKO Mega Metagross, the most potent Pokemon of the metagame. (Guarantee with Choice Specs or by simply hit Metagross with SR once).
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 195-230 (64.7 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I nominate it for D rank.

And about Magneton, it was ranked B- solely for Greninja, who was centralizing the OU metagame since they got Gunk Shot and Low Kick, who broke Greninja. Right now, greninja is gone. It has the niche of outspeed Starmie, Tornadus-T and Raikou, but Magnezone can win agaisnt Tornadus-T and specially Starmie, and Magneton has already a bad match up with Raikou.

For me, I drop it to C-rank.

The thing is that you can also kill Megagross on incoming with Serperior, and unlike Shaymin it does not rely on luck, and even after killing Megagross you still have a good momentum because you are at +2 mininum, and that is in the case Megagross stays, the difference between Serperior is that even in Megagross leaves you still are at a +2, and is more difficult to come into a Serperior because the ability to outrun base 110.

Shaymin has Earth Power, something Serperior would kill for, as well as being a status absorber thanks to Natural Cure, and the ability to heal off LO damage (which I personally think is better than Specs) with either Rest or Synthesis. I could see Shaymin getting at least C rank. I know I've seen a few people using it in the past.

Serperior also has Knock Off, something that also shaymin would kill for(not necessarily but we know how good is to cripple a Raikou or an Scarf mon on incoming), Eart power is cool and useful, but aside from Heatran what Shaymin is handling better than Serperior in practice, or supporting the team like Celebi?

Rest is giving an opponent a free turn, and if they predict you it becomes bad, that is why Rest is kind of difficult to use as a reliable recovery, and synthesis is kinda reliant on weather, and rain and sand are somewhat common now.

I mean handling just a mon better(Heatran) at the cost of having much less offensive presence and relying on luck is not enough for me.

Shaymin is kinda too easy to switch in, and if your luck based move does not trigger even more.

 

[jbtc10]

Mega Medicham is in fact arguably as good (or even better) than Mega Gallade at the moment because it wall-breaks and hence dismantles defensive cores much better and has incredible immediate power, which are very valuable attributes in the meta right now. Sure, Gallade has Swords Dance, but I can honestly say I've never seen a Gallade sweep, because there are just too many things which can counter and/or revenge it. Although Gallade has Knock Off to get past pretty much all bulky psychics (which are still pretty common at the moment) only pure Psychics truly bother Medicham because it has coverage moves like Thunder Punch and Ice Punch for getting past things like Slowbro, Bulky Starmie, Latias, Celebi, etc.

The meta is very favorable towards things with immediate hit-and-run power right now, like Banded Victini and Lando-I, both because set-up opportunities have seemingly become harder to come by and profit from and that the meta is quite bulky. Medicham does of course face competition in the wall-breaking role, but it's pretty damn good at it and is under prepared for now. Deserves a raise.