The problem off serperior is the limited movepool, if you have a hidden power ground you can defeat heatran, but scizor, ferrothorn,bisharp and other pokemons going to defeat serperior easily, if you have hidden power fire you can defeat ferrothorn,scizor,etc but heatran and other pokemons going to defeat serperior easily.Other pokemons that stop serperior are chansey with her high HP and SP.def and other especial walls, such as cresselia. Conkeldurr with assault best can easily defeat serperior with ice punch + mach punch. There is various things that doesn't bring serperior to a high rank.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
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The problem off serperior is the limited movepool, if you have a hidden power ground you can defeat heatran, but scizor, ferrothorn,bisharp and other pokemons going to defeat serperior easily, if you have hidden power fire you can defeat ferrothorn,scizor,etc but heatran and other pokemons going to defeat serperior easily.Other pokemons that stop serperior are chansey with her high HP and SP.def and other especial walls, such as cresselia. Conkeldurr with assault best can easily defeat serperior with ice punch + mach punch. There is various things that doesn't bring serperior to a high rank.
Clef actually has access to Focus Blast as well if it wants to be able to ping Heatran. I've seen it used before on MG CM Clef instead of Flamethrower as an interesting way to fool Heatran into a false sense of security while still being ok against other steels. I'd back Reuniculus to get a bump to C+ because Magic Guard, decent bulk, reasonable set flexibility and being no slouch offensively is a good package deal which, in theory at least, seems better than a lot of the other stuff in the C ranks. B- is too high for now though, it would need to actually prove itself more to get to to that rank.
I feel that mega blastoise should move down to D rank...
with no recovery besides rest and it making up a mega slot its almost useless getting outclassed by the other spinners and water types... its not a ou poke and even worse for a spinner it gets a joke 78 speed.... and with more grass being used mega blastoise goes from being bad to terrible
"Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame."
^this describes M blsatoise perfectly
with no recovery besides rest and it making up a mega slot its almost useless getting outclassed by the other spinners and water types... its not a ou poke and even worse for a spinner it gets a joke 78 speed.... and with more grass being used mega blastoise goes from being bad to terrible
"Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame."
^this describes M blsatoise perfectly
I don't think i can agree with this nomination, unfortunately.
I can't deny that char-y+pursuit is extremely effective, and I can't deny its consistency or power. Those are why its A in the first place.
What I have problems with are twofold:
1) Inability to muscle past its own counters
Shit like chansey, sdef talon, bulky dnite, mega altaria, char-x, reflect type latias, and kinda victini are stuff that will just plain wall it. Some are handled by pursuit trappers, some need to be kept healthy, but i find that firing off a fire blast or two isn't enough for char-y to beat its own shit.
If you look at a pokemon such as mega gardevoir, however, with taunt and repeated focus hits it will eventually muscle through chansey, and with will-o-wisp it can shut down scizor/rachi. Char-y simply doesn't have the options to touch most of its checks/counters outside of spamming STABs and hoping to get somewhere.
So on top of mandatory pursuit support, you need even more support to break through some dragons and fires and pink blobs, and this is all just for a wallbreaker, not even a win condition. Its consistent, but not independent, which can't be said for stuff like mega garde or mega hera (not as consistent but yah)
2) Its switch-in opportunities
Fire/flying is a pretty sweet defensive typing, people usually forget that stressing over the SR weakness. But its stats imo don't really cut it. If you factor in rocks, its just not switching into anything, but even then it can't really switch into much safely, especially vs offense. Lookin A/B ranked mons, the ones with decent offensive presence char-y can "safely" switch into (not factoring in innovation :P):
scizor-mega
celebi
mega venu
jirachi
volcorona
togekiss?
conk
mscept has a 34% chance to 2hko :/
houndoom
sylveon
celebi
mega venu
jirachi
volcorona
togekiss?
conk
mscept has a 34% chance to 2hko :/
houndoom
sylveon
Ofc you can quite easily switch into clefable, mega sableye, etc, but a lot of other stuff can do that pretty easily too, its not something too special when considering the bulkyness of a wallbreaker.
On the other hand you got bitches like mega heracross living LO psyshocks from latias 100% of the time, that's ridiculous.
So in conclusion char-y is very consistent and powerful but its still ultimately dependent on other mons to do its job. It struggles to find adequate switch-ins and needs even more support to break past its counters, further limiting the flexibility of a team. Keep it A
You kind of need a better reason to move Mega Stoise down...like those along are too brief of reasons to be able to drop Mega Blastoise.
Anyways, I think Mega Blastoise is fine where it's at tbh. It's not really a bad Pokemon and beyond spinning, it's a fine choice as a bulky attacker. it hits hard and its bulk is pretty neat. Rapid Spin is mostly just a perk when using Mega Blastoise, but mainly it's a bulky Water-type tank that can hit pretty damn hard. It has nice coverage with Aura Sphere to hit Ferrothorn (really nice advantage over Starmie), Dark Pulse, and of course a strong Water Pulse/Scald/Hydro Pump which coming from Blastoise is pretty powerful. It can remove hazards and the cool thing about it is that it's bulky and it's not too prone to Knock Off like Starmie is. It's not a great mon but it's not bad, it's fine in C. No higher, no less. It has a lot of opportunity cost and is kind of outclassed but then again, that's why it's ranked low, C is low enough imo.
Anyways, I think Mega Blastoise is fine where it's at tbh. It's not really a bad Pokemon and beyond spinning, it's a fine choice as a bulky attacker. it hits hard and its bulk is pretty neat. Rapid Spin is mostly just a perk when using Mega Blastoise, but mainly it's a bulky Water-type tank that can hit pretty damn hard. It has nice coverage with Aura Sphere to hit Ferrothorn (really nice advantage over Starmie), Dark Pulse, and of course a strong Water Pulse/Scald/Hydro Pump which coming from Blastoise is pretty powerful. It can remove hazards and the cool thing about it is that it's bulky and it's not too prone to Knock Off like Starmie is. It's not a great mon but it's not bad, it's fine in C. No higher, no less. It has a lot of opportunity cost and is kind of outclassed but then again, that's why it's ranked low, C is low enough imo.
I've used Reuniclus a bit, and I can definitely vouch for its effectiveness. Its defensive typing may be bland, and its bulk only appears average, but it's still able to switch in on a large amount of Pokemon in OU. Thanks to its superb ability, which negates Stealth Rock, it's able to act as as a counter or check to a lot of hyper offensive Pokemon, including Timid Altaria, Mega Diancie, Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Air Balloon Excadrill, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Medicham. However, Reuniclus's strength isn't against offense; it's against stall. That's what makes Reuniclus such a good addition to a stall team; most stall teams are aptly prepared to face offensive teams, but they struggle against other stall teams. Defensive Heatran, Ferrothorn, Defensive Altaria, Landorus-T, Celebi, Defensive Excadrill, Defensive Garchomp, Hippowdon, Defensive Manaphy, CM Magic Guard Clefable, Rotom-W, Slowbro, Mega Venusaur, Chansey, and Skarmory all are Pokemon Reuniclus can easily switch in on and beat. Additionally, while Mega Slowbro isn't easily 2HKOed, it only beats Reuniclus if it crits it, whereas Reuniclus wins if it gets a Shadow Ball SpD drop (basically a 1/16 chance vs. a 1/5 chance). Once in against an offensive or defensive threat, Reuniclus is capable of setting up Calm Minds easily, which lets it act as a win-condition for stall teams that's hard to stop.
Now, I know what you're thinking: why use this over Magic Guard Clefable? I obviously see the comparison; they're both Magic Guard Calm Mind users capable of beating offensive and defensive teams. However, Reuniclus has certain unique traits that set it apart. First, the most obvious difference, is that Reuniclus is a Psychic-type while Clefable is a Fairy-type. This may seem to give Clefable a complete advantage, but Reuniclus actually is a beneficiary too, as it is is much more capable of handling Steel-types, Poison-types, and Psychic-types like Excadrill, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Medicham than Clefable. Additionally, Psyshock is actually a really helpful move for Reuniclus, as it lets Reuniclus reliably beat specially defensive Pokemon like Chansey as well as win Calm Mind wars with Pokemon like Magic Guard Clefable and Suicune.
Obviously Clefable has its advantages too, enough advantages for me to consider it A+ and Reuniclus B-, but I still think Reuniclus's overall effectiveness as a win condition in both stall v. stall matches and stall v. offense matches, as well as its advantages over its top competitor, Clefable, warrant Reun moving up to B-. There aren't actually any stall win conditions in B-, so it's hard to come up with a direct comparison. However, just looking at a stall comparison, Alomomola is a unique bulky water. It lacks an offensive presence and the ability to act as a win condition, so you may ask: why should I use this over Mega Slowbro or Suicune? However, its unique combination of being a bulky water, a wish passer, and having regenerator gives it a niche. Reuniclus is similar to Clefable, but packs a worse typing, so why would anyone use it? Well, the assortment of Pokemon it can switch in on is different, as is the amount of Pokemon it can set up on and beat. In my opinion, it far surpasses anything in C and C+, bar Slowking (who should move up as well), and deserves a rise to B-.
Now, I know what you're thinking: why use this over Magic Guard Clefable? I obviously see the comparison; they're both Magic Guard Calm Mind users capable of beating offensive and defensive teams. However, Reuniclus has certain unique traits that set it apart. First, the most obvious difference, is that Reuniclus is a Psychic-type while Clefable is a Fairy-type. This may seem to give Clefable a complete advantage, but Reuniclus actually is a beneficiary too, as it is is much more capable of handling Steel-types, Poison-types, and Psychic-types like Excadrill, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Medicham than Clefable. Additionally, Psyshock is actually a really helpful move for Reuniclus, as it lets Reuniclus reliably beat specially defensive Pokemon like Chansey as well as win Calm Mind wars with Pokemon like Magic Guard Clefable and Suicune.
Obviously Clefable has its advantages too, enough advantages for me to consider it A+ and Reuniclus B-, but I still think Reuniclus's overall effectiveness as a win condition in both stall v. stall matches and stall v. offense matches, as well as its advantages over its top competitor, Clefable, warrant Reun moving up to B-. There aren't actually any stall win conditions in B-, so it's hard to come up with a direct comparison. However, just looking at a stall comparison, Alomomola is a unique bulky water. It lacks an offensive presence and the ability to act as a win condition, so you may ask: why should I use this over Mega Slowbro or Suicune? However, its unique combination of being a bulky water, a wish passer, and having regenerator gives it a niche. Reuniclus is similar to Clefable, but packs a worse typing, so why would anyone use it? Well, the assortment of Pokemon it can switch in on is different, as is the amount of Pokemon it can set up on and beat. In my opinion, it far surpasses anything in C and C+, bar Slowking (who should move up as well), and deserves a rise to B-.
Um, the B- rank looks pretty decent currently. I'll just talk about a few nominations.
Hydreigon should rise to B
Hydreigon is one of the most underrated pokemon in the tier. It has near perfect coverage, hitting virtually every pokemon (bar azumarill) for hard damage. It is a complete nightmare for stall, depending on the build and its moveset. Which brings me to my next point. Hydreigon is extremely versatile. It's movepool is absolutely amazing for a wallbreaker, having access to moves that hit OU's bulkiest walls and pivots (fire blast for ferrothorn, earth power for heatran, flash cannon for fairys). Hydreigon also has some interesting utility options, such as taunt, u-turn and tailwind, and can even provide itself with a self-sociphiant recovery option in roost. Hydreigon is also backed up a an incredibly interesting typing defensively, which provides it with handy resistances to dark, fire, water, electric, ghost and grass as well as to excellent immunities to two very common attacking types (ground and psychic). This makes hydreigon a relatively effective pokemon that can easily dismantle popular balance and stall cores, and I find it to be more comparable to victini, mega beedrill and omaster and is certainly more effective then pokemon like mega garchomp, alomomola and sylveon.
Lucario should stay B-
Lucario is actually much more effective and threatening then some may believe. Its 4MSS is not necessarily existent, when all it needs is 3 moves (swords dance, cc and espeed) and the fourth slot is completely three for the move that best fits the team (bullet punch if diancie weak, ice punch if gliscor weak etc). It's 4x resistant to stealth rock and immune to toxic spikes (and poisoning in general), and its typing allows it force switches against mons such as clefable and bulky heatran, giving it more opportunities to set up with swords dance then many people are making out, and if it sets up, (were assuming that stuff like quagsire has been eliminated) it can easily blast its way through weakened teams.
Magneton should drop to C
Pretty self-explanatory, why not use magnezone? Is being able to outspeed talonflame really that important? Only use this if your team is extremely talonflame weak, otherwise, don't just use magnezone. Seriously. Just use magnezone. Do it. Now.
Now here are a nomination of my own
Starmie to A+
Starmie is an incredibly effective pokemon in the current metagame. It hits an incredible speed tier, allowing it to outspeed base 110's, including mega diancie, mega gallade, latios, latias and gengar. Its one of the most reliable keldeo checks in the tier, pivoting in and being able to easily kill keldeo with psyshock. Bulky can reflect type important stuff like bisharp, making it an excellent glue on teams that need something that can check a variety of pokemon. Offensive sets make for excellent cleaners, and it has coverage to easily deal with common switchins. Starmie also has two excellent ability, anaytic making a pain to switch into, while natural cure means it can make for a decent status absorber. Lets not forget the most notable thing about starmie, rapid spin. Starmie is the easily the most reliable spinner in the tier, as excadrill is often to slow to spin unless in the sand, which starmie outspeeds 85% of the tier already and requires no support what so ever. I feel like starmie is an incredibly effective pokemon right now and it should be A+.
Hydreigon should rise to B
Hydreigon is one of the most underrated pokemon in the tier. It has near perfect coverage, hitting virtually every pokemon (bar azumarill) for hard damage. It is a complete nightmare for stall, depending on the build and its moveset. Which brings me to my next point. Hydreigon is extremely versatile. It's movepool is absolutely amazing for a wallbreaker, having access to moves that hit OU's bulkiest walls and pivots (fire blast for ferrothorn, earth power for heatran, flash cannon for fairys). Hydreigon also has some interesting utility options, such as taunt, u-turn and tailwind, and can even provide itself with a self-sociphiant recovery option in roost. Hydreigon is also backed up a an incredibly interesting typing defensively, which provides it with handy resistances to dark, fire, water, electric, ghost and grass as well as to excellent immunities to two very common attacking types (ground and psychic). This makes hydreigon a relatively effective pokemon that can easily dismantle popular balance and stall cores, and I find it to be more comparable to victini, mega beedrill and omaster and is certainly more effective then pokemon like mega garchomp, alomomola and sylveon.
Lucario should stay B-
Lucario is actually much more effective and threatening then some may believe. Its 4MSS is not necessarily existent, when all it needs is 3 moves (swords dance, cc and espeed) and the fourth slot is completely three for the move that best fits the team (bullet punch if diancie weak, ice punch if gliscor weak etc). It's 4x resistant to stealth rock and immune to toxic spikes (and poisoning in general), and its typing allows it force switches against mons such as clefable and bulky heatran, giving it more opportunities to set up with swords dance then many people are making out, and if it sets up, (were assuming that stuff like quagsire has been eliminated) it can easily blast its way through weakened teams.
Magneton should drop to C
Pretty self-explanatory, why not use magnezone? Is being able to outspeed talonflame really that important? Only use this if your team is extremely talonflame weak, otherwise, don't just use magnezone. Seriously. Just use magnezone. Do it. Now.
Now here are a nomination of my own
Starmie is an incredibly effective pokemon in the current metagame. It hits an incredible speed tier, allowing it to outspeed base 110's, including mega diancie, mega gallade, latios, latias and gengar. Its one of the most reliable keldeo checks in the tier, pivoting in and being able to easily kill keldeo with psyshock. Bulky can reflect type important stuff like bisharp, making it an excellent glue on teams that need something that can check a variety of pokemon. Offensive sets make for excellent cleaners, and it has coverage to easily deal with common switchins. Starmie also has two excellent ability, anaytic making a pain to switch into, while natural cure means it can make for a decent status absorber. Lets not forget the most notable thing about starmie, rapid spin. Starmie is the easily the most reliable spinner in the tier, as excadrill is often to slow to spin unless in the sand, which starmie outspeeds 85% of the tier already and requires no support what so ever. I feel like starmie is an incredibly effective pokemon right now and it should be A+.
Mega Blastoise is actually better than anyone gives it credit for and I seriously think people should try it more often, it's better in practice than on paper in my experience. I'm not saying it should move up, but it sure as hell shouldn't move down and certainly not to D. As a Spinner, it's not completely outclassed because it can beat all of the common spinblockers easily. As a Water Type it's not outclassed because it strikes an almost unique balance of offence and defence and uses it to great effect. "It's not OU" is not a great argument: usage doesn't equal viability, as things like Tangrowth and previously Hippowdon prove. Grass isn't as huge as you're making it out to be. It's increasing (and granted Electric is pretty big), but then so are Types Blastoise fares more strongly against. It's very much a two-sided argument.
It can sponge a lot of powerful resisted AND neutral hits, which combined with it's Typing and the power it commands lends itself to checking a lot of stuff you may be surprised it can check - and surprisingly, it doesn't even have to MEvolve to tank some significant ones (though it's obviously coming highly recommended).
I was going to post some calcs, but the calculator's not registering MEvos for some bizarre reason and I haven't got time to go through it and change all their stats/Abilities, so I'll post a brief list of S through to A+ instead and try and post the correct calcs later if anyone still wants them. You can always double-check if you like.
the entirety of S-Rank
Bisharp
Mega Zard X
Mega Diancie
Gengar
M-Lop
Lati@s
M-Sableye(I'm reasonably sure, you might want to double-check this one though)
M-Scizor
Banded Talonflame
Bisharp
Mega Zard X
Mega Diancie
Gengar
M-Lop
Lati@s
M-Sableye(I'm reasonably sure, you might want to double-check this one though)
M-Scizor
Banded Talonflame
Yeah, I'm seconding Hydregion to B
Despite its fairy weakness, it has good special atk and an expansive move pool to abuse it with! plus, it gets the coveted u-turn to keep momentum going. It makes an excellent partner for pokemon like megagross and Scizor.
I better start doing hw now!
Despite its fairy weakness, it has good special atk and an expansive move pool to abuse it with! plus, it gets the coveted u-turn to keep momentum going. It makes an excellent partner for pokemon like megagross and Scizor.
I better start doing hw now!
My issue with Starmie going to A+ is the comparison and contrasting elements that is being established as both an offensive and defensive threat. Offensively I think Gengar and Azumarill pose more of a threat than Starmie does simply for the fact that Starmies coverage options in regards to its success are based a lot on matchup and the necessity to utilize Analytic if we're talking about the Life Orb variant. Clearly this isn't that bad but then what I see is that threats such as Gengar and Azumarill have so few little switch ins on just about every team you see and lack fewer counter play to combat these effectively unless you're using something particularly defensive or through the aspects of revenge killing. Checking Starmie in my eyes doesn't require the amount of effort and playing that threats such as these and the other offensive A+ ranked mons that reside in that rank require.
Then let's take into consideration the fact that Reflect Type has become a very big liability at times in the meta for Starmies necessity to be one of two Keldeo switch ins on the team, which now leaves it prone to Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Tyranitar just to name a few things that are used for Reflect Type purposes. Starmie is pretty pursuit prone when it comes to the defensive set and in the case of Scarf Tar is even more so on its offensive variants. Excadrill can be pretty much assumed to be a Sand Rush sweeper most of the time and the difference with that and Starmie if we're talking about the role as an offensive spinner is that Excadrill is making a lot of offensive builds have a huge burden on their shoulder in regards to checking Excadrill, normally using very shaky checks to combat it while checking Starmie isn't actually as hard on the level Excadrill exemplifies considering their similar traits.
So now let's take Garchomp for example who was decided to stay in A. I don't think Starmie's capabilities are better than Garchomp in the general sense of how effective they both are. They primarily are considered to have two primary sets that generally are taken into account for viability with slight variations depending on team builder and the team composition themselves. No one can argue that these sets aren't effective but both sets in particular no matter the team around it will always have a bit of match-up issues with certain elements that can hinder their effectiveness. Garchomp's issue with the increased usage of Ice coverage to combat Landos and Gliscors, the surge of Icy Wind Gengar, HP Ice Lando, Specs Keldeo, teams exploiting the lack of specially defensive checks on a plethora of teams utilizing specially offensive wall-breakers that make Rocky Helmet Garchomp lose effectiveness against various bulky offensive cores and as such can make grabbing momentum difficult at times for Garchomp. Starmie with its failure to have consistent counter measures for certain set up sweepers, the wall-breaking capabilities that is only possible through the use of Analytic taking effect, pursuit weak and playing gambles with these pursuit users on the opposing side of the field.
What I'm trying to say, although seems sort of poorly, is that the difference between the A and A+ ranked sub category that I feel doesn't push Starmie close to A+ is that these A+ ranked threats have a much higher quality of gaining and delivering momentum to those who use them in comparison to Starmie. Many of the A+ ranked mons you see are known and sub-consciously considered to be huge thorns in the side of team-builders either as an offensive or defensive threat with capabilities and consistency that borderline puts them in the S rank position at any given moment with only a bit effort but not enough consistency to push them to S. Starmie I feel doesn't qualify as an A+ ranked threat because it doesn't expel that same amount of centralization and effectiveness that I would expect from the A+ ranked category. That's just my take on this nom personally.
I'm just going to throw out there that your comparisons seem unfair. In regards to comparing Starmie to Gengar, Starmie sits at a much better speed tier than Genger (110 is way too crowded) making it so Starmie doesn't care about speed ties against mons like Lati@s. Providing team support (which Gengar has none of) via Rapid Spin makes it push its versatility further making it a revenge killer, cleaner, and team player all in one slot; something Gengar can't really boast about. Starmie can also run Recover if spin is not needed to punish players that think Starmie is about to knock itself out with LO. It still hits harder with Analytic and it's not exactly hard to pressure your opponent into switching. Basically what I'm trying to say is that Starmie matches up well against offense, while Gengar matches up well against balance and they are honestly just as easy to check. Don't even compare Azu with Starmie from an offensive stand point just because we are talking about A+. Azu provides its offensive presence with just sheer pressure alone while Starmie has great revenge killing and late-game cleaning potential thanks to out speeding most of the unboosted meta and having great coverage while Azu can only revenge mons weak to water. I don't think A+ is as much of stretch as you're making it out to be though I'm not completely sold on A+ either, but I can see it being very possible as the meta develops more.
Edit @ below: I'm saying it's an unfair comparison because your post was implying that Gengar and Azu are better offensively which is not the case.
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How exactly is it unfair to evaluate the comparison of one ranked Pokemon to another if you're measuring both its defensive and offensive capabilities when trying to warrant a raise or drop? If you want to establish that the team building constraint is on par to those of the rank you're trying to justify placing it for you most certainly have to compare what resides in those ranks, regardless of how unfair or fair you deem those comparisons to be. Gengars team support is literally right there in its presence alone amongst the utility options both from an offensive and defensive position with Will-O-Wisp, Icy Wind, Destiny Bond, Pain Split. The premise of a team player is not only through the use of its utility aspects it can most certainly be from an offensive position as well. So yes if we're talking about A+ we are perfectly at liberty to discuss why Starmie warrants A+ in regards to the presence of other A+ ranked Pokemon by comparison and contrasting in correlation to the metagame right now.
Your argument appears to be that starmie is not on the level of the vast majority of the A+ mons. While this may be true when comparing starmie to pokemon such as clefable and bisharp, which are the pokemon on the higher level of A+, I don't see how starmie is much worse then pokemon such as mega scizor. What starmie offers that I feel you have overlooked is sheer utility. Rapid spin is extremely crucial, as it gives starmie a method of removing hazards from its side of the field, while maintaining its own hazards, which defog flat out removes. The other spinners in the tier are escadrill, tentacruel and too an extent, mega blastoise, which all have their issues (excadrill needs sand, tentacruel's incredibly weak to common pokemon, blastoise takes up your mega slot). One thing you appear to have overlooked when talking about starmie's life orb set is once again, utility. While comparing things like starmie and azumarill, for example, sure azumarill is more offensively viable, however, starmie has access to rapid spin, which allows it to support the team, while the closest thing to support azumarill has is knock off and assault vest (which isn't even that great). When comparing to gengar, which also offers a ton of utility, it's speed tier is quite a hinderance compared to starmie's. Gengar risk's losing a speed tie to multiple pokemon such as mega diancie, mega gallade, latios, latias and mega metagross, which can all kill it if it looses, while starmie can either revenge kill or one shot these pokemon with little to no fear what so-ever. Gengar also fails to KO landorus-I (no icy wind) and keldeo in one hit, while they can both KO in return, while starmie on the other hand can cleanly beat both of these pokemon. Starmie can also KO 252/96 mega sableye with two hydro pumps if it tries to switch in, something genera cannot achieve with shadow ball. While I would say gengar is undeniably the better pokemon, its not that much better, so I'm still pushing starmie to A+.
I'd say this definitely is the case.
I think the strongest possible case for Starmie to move up would focus on its utility combined with its other qualities. You don't want to compare its offense to Gengar and other A+ mons in a vacuum because that's just not gonna work out. The obvious comparison here is to Latios, which is the best hazard remover in the tier based on ranking. Alright so Starmie is faster and doesn't give Bisharp +2 as well as checking several hazard setters better than Latios does. However it isn't nearly as powerful and is also worn down more easily because it isn't immune to spikes and can take Iron Barbs / Rough Skin / Life Orb recoil upon using Rapid Spin. Of course there are the ups and downs of Rapid Spin vs Defog to consider as well and granted Starmie can run a couple different sets but the bulky spinner set really offers very little offensive pressure. Overall I think Starmie should stay in A rank.
I don't see how Latios is an obvious comparison at all. LO Starmie is much more consistent offensively since unlike Latios it doesn't lower its own damage output by using its most powerful STAB. They are both suited for different roles and offer there own set of pros and cons. Also bulky spinner is not meant to have some amazing offensive presence so I'm not quite sure what you are getting at...
Except that Latios has a significantly higher SAtk, which means Draco Meteor will take a huge chunk of HP off of, or even KO, pretty much any Pokemon other than Fairies, Steels, and Chansey. Meanwhile, Starmie's most powerful STAB attack is resisted by three types, which is still pretty good, except that Starmie's SAtk is lower, meaning it does less damage overall. Now, you're probably gonna give me the Life Orb argument, so I'll point out that Latios has it too. Starmie's only offensive advantage comes from a better range of coverage moves, and from Analytic, which is only relevant on switches. Even with that, however, Latios is still going to be doing more damage overall. Also, the SAtk drop isn't as huge of a deal as you make it out to be, since most Latios these days are carrying Earthquake, which is unaffected, and Psyshock, which can offset it against specially defensive Pokemon. Meanwhile, the argument about Bulky Hazard Removers not being meant to have a good offensive presence isn't true either, as Latias also has a Bulky Reflect Type set, and also has more offensive presence than Starmie. Don't get me wrong Starmie's a great all-around Pokemon , and I've been using it a lot lately, but while it can do several things very well, it can't do them better than the Pokemon that actively specialize in them. A is fine for it.
Hootie Latios and Starmie is an obvious comparison because they are both hazard removers. A stronger comparison can be made when mons have similar roles. As for the bulky spinner comment, it was just to emphasize that while it has its own perks (natural cure, checking keldeo better), I personally believe it loses more than it gains. If Starmie were to move up it would be on the merit of the Offensive LO set IMO.
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Fair enough.
I do like how he forces switches, which basically limits them to switch or sack a Pokémon, which is really fun to mess around with behind a Substitute. It's pretty good considering its 145 Sp.Atk misses out on an OHKO on a lot of things, so having a Sub to exploit its frailty to get 2HKOs is nice.
But then again, requiring a Substitute to take advantage of how pathetically weak it is considering very often it finds itself unboosted says a lot about Mega Sceptile, NastyPass being mostly unviable on Sceptile teams because the most relevant NastyPasser is Celebi which makes similar weaknesses due to their Grass-typing, and plethora of things that wall Sceptile, make you really consider your options before using something like Mega Aerodactyl.
Meh. He's still fun tho. And that's really all that matters, right? ... No? 'Kay.
every landorus has either knock off or pursuit support lol. volcarona still destroyes slowking. slowbro can take on both keldeo and starmie. latios is the one of the few pokemon that slowking can wall that slowbro cant. plz dont try to compare these two since they fullfill completly diffrent roles.
This may seem controversial, but I'm going for it.
Mew B+ ---> A-
When i wrap my head around it, I can't really see why this is B+. I don't think its on the same level as Breloom and others.
It's supportive capabilities are amazing, with WoW, Roost, TWave, Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Baton Pass, Taunt, etc. and it poses as a decent threat to all playstyles with respective moveslots. Also, it has very little 4MSS.
Speaking of moveslots: its moveslot is probably one of the best in the meta. Learning every TM+ a few other moves is amazing.
Most Pursuit Trappers cant even reliably kill it. Bisharp, for example, cant Sucker Punch because of WoW, Knock Off is its best option, but at the risk of halving its Attack?
MMeta also has trouble against Defensive Mew. It just spams Roosts after it WoW's, and can occasionally Knock Off for extra damage.
Instead of talking about every mon it takes on, lets look at what it can cripple/kill.
S:
MMeta
A+:
Azu (Non BD)
Bisharp
Lando T (Shaky at best)
MLop
MZor (Switch out to magnezone or something)
A:
Non SD Excadrill
Garchomp
TTar
MDos (If running TWave, but Crunch does a lot, risk the DDance/Crunch.)
A-:
MAero
MGallade
Gyarados
MSir (Pre mega can be hit by wow)
Mamoswine
Thats a lot of mons.
And its not supposed to kill them either, its supposed to cripple them. IMO this is an easy A- supportive threat that can handle all playstyles with respective movesets.
I'm ready to be bombarded with quotes.
edit: i have this eerie feeling that someone is taking a long ass time to make a reply
Mew B+ ---> A-
When i wrap my head around it, I can't really see why this is B+. I don't think its on the same level as Breloom and others.
It's supportive capabilities are amazing, with WoW, Roost, TWave, Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Baton Pass, Taunt, etc. and it poses as a decent threat to all playstyles with respective moveslots. Also, it has very little 4MSS.
Speaking of moveslots: its moveslot is probably one of the best in the meta. Learning every TM+ a few other moves is amazing.
Most Pursuit Trappers cant even reliably kill it. Bisharp, for example, cant Sucker Punch because of WoW, Knock Off is its best option, but at the risk of halving its Attack?
MMeta also has trouble against Defensive Mew. It just spams Roosts after it WoW's, and can occasionally Knock Off for extra damage.
Instead of talking about every mon it takes on, lets look at what it can cripple/kill.
S:
MMeta
A+:
Azu (Non BD)
Bisharp
Lando T (Shaky at best)
MLop
MZor (Switch out to magnezone or something)
A:
Non SD Excadrill
Garchomp
TTar
MDos (If running TWave, but Crunch does a lot, risk the DDance/Crunch.)
A-:
MAero
MGallade
Gyarados
MSir (Pre mega can be hit by wow)
Mamoswine
Thats a lot of mons.
And its not supposed to kill them either, its supposed to cripple them. IMO this is an easy A- supportive threat that can handle all playstyles with respective movesets.
I'm ready to be bombarded with quotes.
edit: i have this eerie feeling that someone is taking a long ass time to make a reply
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Where are you getting those calcs from? They're waaaaay off.
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 188-222 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Slowking: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 106-126 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
He was using the VGC Zard Y at level 50. In order to not post one liners, I'll also add that I think Slowking should stay put, most things bout it have already been said, I just think it's not better than some of the C+ Pokemon atm like Mega Pidgeot and Mega Medicham. It's very predictable in that they almost exclusively run AV and get basically stopped in their tracks by Knock Off.
There was no need to delete your whole post man, you could have just edited those calculations or removed them. Slowking is a very good pokemon and could definitely rise in the rankings because of the reasons you gave. It's a fantastic switch in to a lot of the tiers most terrifying and powerful special attackers, namely Landorus-I. It also has a fantastic movepool and is pretty decent offensively. Your argument of Slowking taking on Zard Y was just a mistake, the rest of what you said was perfectly valid. :]
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