Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Baharoth]

Aside from fishing for scalds or simply pivoting into something else (especially against Mega Meta thats what you usually do), it can roar/toxic. You can even run ice beam or Knock off if the latis are of greater concern. CB Azu is a prediction issue most of the time but the same is true for Ferro as he cant take CB superpower either and honestly there aren't many absolute safe switch ins to CB Azu if it always predicts right.

And lets be frank, fishing for burns is what spd Heatran does most of time. If he isnt running EP he cant even hurt Zard X aside from Toxic, he cant touch Talonflame either aside from Toxic. He is still considered to be a check to them. And for Gyarados i was mainly thinking about Roar which works fine as long as Gyara isnt the last mon. If he gets a sub up, roar him out and he lost 25% for nothing. He cant switch back in for fear of toxic/scald burns. Pretty solid check in my eyes. I'll give you Gengar but with a bit more spd investment even that problem can be solved.

Empoleon certainly lost alot of its value since the end of XY where it was the perfect Greninja check, but he's still far better than your giving him credit for.

Fun fact: Since Oras you can run Defiant + Knock off ohkoing Latios if he is using Defog on you.

 

[craing ;_;]

just wanted to point out that empoleon should run chople as one of its main items so that it can check threats such as keldeo gardevoir azu lop gengar metagross scizor ttar zam and that it is the best bulky water that has the most utility options(outside of reliable recovery)

heres a good replay displaying its effectiveness:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-214639593

too lazy to write anymore, bop have a nice day p:

 

[dramadrama]

starmie totally deserves a+, it has two really good sets beeing offensive spinner and defensive reflect type. the offensive starmie is one of the best or rather the best ways of removing hazards, while having only a few switch ins, there is not much that can take on all 3 sets (rapid spin, hydro pump, ice beam, tbolt/psyshock/hp fire). the defensive starmie is one of the few mons that can absorb all lava plums and scalds (due to typing and ability). reflect type makes it not only pursuit immune but also gives you a lot of free turns. its probably the fastest defensive mon. it keeps the momentum with scald i think its solid A+.

 

[Clone]

all i really wanna say rn is that if medicham is seriously being considered for a rise, then gallade should as well. we all know gallade is objectively better than medicham so if (the worse) one is being considered for a raise, than the other (better) one should be as well.

 

[shartruce]

Well I've been using Skarmory a ton so I'll discuss that.

Skarmory definitely deserves a bump to A-. I've been using the Custap Lead a lot on the ladder and it's been very reliable at getting at least 2 hazards up and maybe some damage with Brave Bird and Iron Head. Speaking of those 2 moves, they're very useful on the custap set as Iron Head beats Mega Diancie which wouldn't let you get hazards up otherwise and Brave Bird is useful for getting yourself into Custap range or killing yourself to get momentum/block spin/defog/ get some good damage. You can also use taunt instead of brave bird to taunt slower leads to not set up hazards but in my experience brave bird has been more valuable, but taunt's still an option.

Anyways, it's a great lead for HO and even though it's job is hampered by Mega Sableye and fast taunt leads, you can easily lead with your fairy/hard hitter against Mega Sableye and faster taunt leads are usually easy to identify on the opposing team (Terrakion, Azelf, Heatran). Also even if you don't lead with it/ don't get up hazards somehow, it's pretty easy to switch in because of it's good defensive typing even uninvested, so you'll at least get SR up at worst.

But that's not all that Skarm does! It's physical defensive set is still great, still a great spikes stacker/ defogger for defensive teams, can beat threatening mons like Excadrill, Lando-T, Mega Pinsir. Haven't tried the Special Defensive set yet, but it sounds pretty good as it takes on Torn-T w/o Heat Wave much better which is good bc Torn-T is everywhere right now, and can switch in to Fairies/Psychics/ weaker Special attackers a lot better.

Therefore, with 3 sets (custap, p def, and spdef) that are pretty reliable at what they do, with leading HO or walling what you want it to, defogging and spikes stacking, skarm can fit on almost any kind of team and will do work. I think we can bump this thing up to A-

Skarmory for A-

rest of the mons I don't have much experience with. Also thanks for not dropping quag :)

 

[dramadrama]

all i really wanna say rn is that if medicham is seriously being considered for a rise, then gallade should as well. we all know gallade is objectively better than medicham so if (the worse) one is being considered for a raise, than the other (better) one should be as well.

o dont think thats exacly true. medicham had been underrated and its not only about how it got much better its just we start to realize that it isnt outclassed, mega gallade isnt that good and mega medicham might be decent. there is a huge diffrence between them since medi is a wallbreaker, doesnt get stopped by common walls like clefable or hippowdon. i would say gallade is that good right now, while medicham has some things that make it outstanding in this metagame. mega gallade is more or a sweeper and teams are really prepared for sweepers, i wouldnt say mega medicham is great but at this moment it is pretty antimeta. Balance beeing so common, stall almost never seen gives it many good match-ups. C+ is too low for one for the best wallbreakers in ou. i think B rank would suit it good still it has a few drawbacks but it can fullfill certain roll really good.

 

[Srn]

just wanted to point out that empoleon should run chople as one of its main items so that it can check threats such as keldeo gardevoir azu lop gengar metagross scizor ttar zam and that it is the best bulky water that has the most utility options(outside of reliable recovery)

heres a good replay displaying its effectiveness:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-214639593

too lazy to write anymore, bop have a nice day p:

Wait sry to make you post in this thread again bengy but it doesn't beat any of those 1v1 with chople (outside or garde with flash cannon) so how does it check them :< Best it can do to them is scald burn/toxic/roar which doesn't feel like doing its job to me.

 

[dramadrama]

i know its a little bit off the topic but id like to nominate volcarona for A rank. its a prefect balance breaker, destroyes offense, the sr weakness is the only thing holdong it back. the 3 atks (quiver, fire blast, giga drain, hp ground/big buzz). Depending on the set its only good anwers are heatran or latios. With pursuit support (with is sooo good rn anyway) the hp ground set is the most feared thing to balance. If you want you can go with duggy(or just weakenn heatran) and have bug buzz for second strong stab. It still gets to hold lum berry to prevent thundurus or klefki from stopping you. i do not see any reason why it should be A- only.
ps. offense has zardx and talon but they are easy breakable. again the main point is about how it shits on balance

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Starmie is definetly good for A+.
Being a hard hitting offensive spinner to a scald passing RT'er, this guy is hella expendable. With its ability, it can shrug off status like a champ, being a good status wall. Pursuit Trappers cant do crap to his RT set, and HO fears its LO set.
Also, 115 base speed? For a hazard remover, thats fast. The fastest in the game besides +2 exca and the rare aero.
Seriously, BoltBeam+Hydro is nearly perfect coverage (although you might wanna run Recover/Psyshock instead of Thunderbolt/ice beam) hitting nearly any switchin hard. Scald is yet another great feature on this thing because it does SE damage to Fire types and burns every other type. It also counters non HP Electric Keldeo, Heatran, and stops many switchins. This thing is also pretty hard to wear down; Toxic stalling is nearly useless, so you must kill it with brute force, and even then it has Recover, giving stall a pretty hard time.

Not only is it good on HO, but Balance and BO, too. Just a nearly flawless mon with great spA and Speed to be a phenomenal Offensive Spinner.
A+

 

[craing ;_;]

Wait sry to make you post in this thread again bengy but it doesn't beat any of those 1v1 with chople (outside or garde with flash cannon) so how does it check them :< Best it can do to them is scald burn/toxic/roar which doesn't feel like doing its job to me.

keldeo gardevoir azu lop gengar metagross scizor ttar zam

its not meant to beat those aformentioned mons, more so it allows it to do its job more effectively which would be to get a defog off, phaze or get off damage. lefties recovery isn't that significant since it finds more use on bulky/heavy offense which is in need of its defensive capabilities. it is just a check, not a counter so make sure you have additional ways to deal with em

 

[MrAldo]

Re-quoting some previous nominations

mmm, so B and B- ranks, ok
Tyrantrum to B- rank: This guy can certainly move up. Banded and rock polish sets are pretty amazing thanks to the raw power of a STAB 150 bp move with a pretty nice offensive type with no recoil thanks to rock head is certainly effective enough to guarantee a rise among the B- ranks at least imo. This mon is certainly nice to punch holes with a choice band making plenty of resists fearing to switch and being a decent mid to late-game cleaner with powerful STAB moves (you would pressing head smash most of the time). B- seems fair.

M-Pidgeot to B- rank: I certainly agree with this moving up. The 3 attacks + U-turn set is certainly nice but there is nothing particularly special about it but the stallbreaker set with sub/refresh, work up, roost, hurricane is a pretty fantastic set and extremely effective with support like spikestacking for example. M-Pidgeot pressures teams with an impressive 110 bp flying STAB move that it wont miss no matter what with a remarkably annoying 30% confuse rate. Combine that with spikestacking and the pressure many hazards can provide to even the stuff that can stomach M-Pidgeot and you got a fantastic win condition. Certainly the most effective mon in C+ rank and I feel it needs to rise at least to B- thanks to this particular set (with a wonky boosting move but hey, it works). B- seems fair as well.

I feel M-Pidgeot and Tyrantrum are way better than any mon in the C+ rank (alongside Mega Medicham, but I will analyze the possibility of a rise for this guy later on) so... yeah, those deserve B-

Slowking to B: I feel this mon deserve to move up another rank and perhaps sit in that comfortably (it could keep moving up, who knows). This mon is really good, acting as a glue to handle pretty dangerous mons like mega metagross, keldeo, landorus-I lacking knock off, latis, starmie, mega charizard Y and a couple more. Having regenerator let this mon keep checking this mons a good couple of times through the match. I certainly believe this mon should rise a rank again, it is really good.

 

[North Gate]

all i really wanna say rn is that if medicham is seriously being considered for a rise, then gallade should as well. we all know gallade is objectively better than medicham so if (the worse) one is being considered for a raise, than the other (better) one should be as well.

Sadly, that is completely false. MMedi has a couple of things over Gallade. and while Gallade is one of my favorite Pokemon, this is from a competitive perspective.

• Mega Medicham has much higher attack before Mega Gallade has to use Swords Dance, allowing Mega Medi to nuke a wall with HJK, Zen Headbutt, or the appropiate coverage move.
• Mega Medicham has a lower speed tier, but access to better priority like Fake Out and Bullet Punch, over Gallade's shitty Shadow Sneak that doesn't even OHKO Gengar.
• To be frank, Mega Medicham's speed tier even with a neutral nature as a wallbreaker is excellent since it outspeeds most relevant walls, since they don't run any speed.
• Mega Medicham's nuking power is quite insane, nothing and I mean nothing wants to switch in on it besides super fat walls that are passive as shit. ((And are probably nailed with a coverage move.))

Now lets take a glance at Mega Gallade.

• Better speed tier (albeit packed with speed ties) in 110.
• Access to Swords Dance.
• Hits like a truck at +2 and can late game clean if needed.
• Access to Close Combat, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, and Knock off. About all it needs.
• YOu can pull off a Bulk Up set if it's really stressed, but it's pretty meh.
• Manageable special bulk.
• +2 CC is a nuke, nuking everything that is neutral by it, and things you need to hit are nailed by your other STAB or a coverage move.

They each have their perks, and Mega Gallade isn't outright better than Mega Medicham. Lets look at some traits they share.

• Both of them are somwhat weak to Fairies, but MMedi can just nuke them.
• Both are weak to Talonflame.
• Both have quite some meh bulk, not surviving much.
• Psychic/Fighting is a cool offensive type, but they are weak to Flying|Fairy|Ghost; they also boast resistances to Rock|Fighting, all of them common offensive types.

Quick edit: I might expand later, but I probably won't.

 

[skies]

Mega Aggron: C- Rank ---> C+ Rank

Mega Aggron is severely underrated right now, and it is most definitely not C- Rank. Lately, I've been using it a bunch on an offensive team with a spread of 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe and an Adamant nature. "But unfixable! What kind of spread is that?" Well, dear friend, it's a Rock Polish set! You may be thinking: has he gone mad? Rock Polish Mega Aggron? Why yes! I've been using Rock Polish Mega Aggron lately and I'm so impressed. People are overlooking how it has an Attack stat of 140. That's very big, and is only 5 less than Landorus-Therian. Now you're looking at its base 50 Speed. What does that outspeed? Everything up to Adamant Mega Aerodactyl! A set of Rock Polish | Heavy Slam | Ice Punch | Earthquake is able to effectively hit everything at least for neutral damage in OU, bar the incredibly common Surskit. Heavy Slam is insanely powerful, and Mega Aggron is very very heavy, so many things will be hit for a large sum of damage. It's best left for late game, after the opposing team is weakened. Without investment, Mega Aggron isn't even going to be bopped by physical attacks. Choice Band Terrakion doesn't even KO after a layer of Spikes, for example! The icing on the cake, in my opinion, is its excellent synergy with Celebi. Celebi is so powerful to combine with because it passes a Swords Dance onto Mega Aggron. This is just so amazing, and the strategy has been performing very well. I think Mega Aggron's so powerful and has excellent opportunities to set up. However, Mega Aggron faces competition from Mega Metagross because it, too, has Rock Polish. Using Mew as an example, it takes 66.8-78.5% while Mega Metagross does 62.4 - 73.9%. Against a lot of foes, Mega Aggron will be more powerful because it can run an Adamant nature. In comparison, Meteor Mash does 117 and Heavy Slam does 120 (to most foes). Is this big enough? Not really. But, it does have perfect accuracy which is probably a niche enough. Mega Aggron's synergy with Celebi and ability to set up Rock Polish on a variety of foes, unlike Mega Metagross gives it a respectable niche and I think it definitely deserves the raise. I really don't feel you can compare Mega Aggron to Noivern, Zygarde, and Espeon, who all receive much larger competition and opportunity cost than Mega Aggron. Mega Aggron's possibly not a C+ Rank threat, that could be an over exaggeration, but I do feel C- is not doing Mega Aggron justice. Instead, a high placement is in order for it.

Here's a replay of Mega Aggron in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-221602450.

 

[North Gate]

Mega Aggron: C- Rank ---> C+ Rank

Mega Aggron is severely underrated right now, and it is most definitely not C- Rank. Lately, I've been using it a bunch on an offensive team with a spread of 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe and an Adamant nature. "But unfixable! What kind of spread is that?" Well, dear friend, it's a Rock Polish set! You may be thinking: has he gone mad? Rock Polish Mega Aggron? Why yes! I've been using Rock Polish Mega Aggron lately and I'm so impressed. People are overlooking how it has an Attack stat of 140. That's very big, and is only 5 less than Landorus-Therian. Now you're looking at its base 50 Speed. What does that outspeed? Everything up to Adamant Mega Aerodactyl! A set of Rock Polish | Heavy Slam | Ice Punch | Earthquake is able to effectively hit everything super effectively in OU, bar the incredibly common Surskit. Heavy Slam is insanely powerful, and Mega Aggron is very very heavy, so many things will be hit for a large sum of damage. It's best left for late game, after the opposing team is weakened. Without investment, Mega Aggron isn't even going to be bopped by physical attacks. Choice Band Terrakion doesn't even KO after a layer of Spikes, for example! The icing on the cake, in my opinion, is its excellent synergy with Celebi. Celebi is so powerful to combine with because it passes a Swords Dance onto Mega Aggron. This is just so amazing, and the strategy has been performing very well. I think Mega Aggron's so powerful and has excellent opportunities to set up. However, Mega Aggron faces competition from Mega Metagross because it, too, has Rock Polish. Using Mew as an example, it takes 66.8-78.5% while Mega Metagross does 62.4 - 73.9%. Against a lot of foes, Mega Aggron will be more powerful because it can run an Adamant nature. In comparison, Meteor Mash does 117 and Heavy Slam does 120 (to most foes). Is this big enough? Not really. But, it does have perfect accuracy which is probably a niche enough. Mega Aggron's synergy with Celebi and ability to set up Rock Polish on a variety of foes, unlike Mega Metagross gives it a respectable niche and I think it definitely deserves the raise. I really don't feel you can compare Mega Aggron to Noivern, Zygarde, and Espeon, who all receive much larger competition and opportunity cost than Mega Aggron. Mega Aggron's possibly not a C+ Rank threat, that could be an over exaggeration, but I do feel C- is not doing Mega Aggron justice. Instead, a high placement is in order for it.

Here's a replay of Mega Aggron in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-221602450.

Shitty one liner, but Automotize with Iron Head is viable as well to reduce Low Kick damage, while it does get rid of Heavy Slam, Iron Head is more consistent and all that flinch hax while providing Aggron a little more of a cushion for Low Kicks.

Edit: Does make it overall weaker than Mega Metagross though n_n. It is much bulkier though.

 

[astroboy]

Shitty one liner, but Automotize with Iron Head is viable as well to reduce Low Kick damage, while it does get rid of Heavy Slam, Iron Head is more consistent and all that flinch hax while providing Aggron a little more of a cushion for Low Kicks.

Edit: Does make it overall weaker than Mega Metagross though n_n. It is much bulkier though.

except literally nothing runs low kick except like. bisharp? but thats very uncommon, so id rather have heavy slam for the big jump in power than...taking more from a really rare varient of bisharp, i guess haha.

 

[FaZeBoo]

Mega Aggron: C- Rank ---> C+ Rank

A set of Rock Polish | Heavy Slam | Ice Punch | Earthquake is able to effectively hit everything super effectively in OU

dont wanna be that guy, but forretress and ferrothorn, and other dual steel types and stuff have neutral hits and can take it and stall it out.
however, i do agree that mega aggron is powerfull and it is great with Curse Sleep Talk, and it is overall one of my fav megas behind manectric and drill. hope this doesnt count as a one liner

 

[skies]

dont wanna be that guy, but forretress and ferrothorn, and other dual steel types and stuff have neutral hits and can take it and stall it out.
however, i do agree that mega aggron is powerfull and it is great with Curse Sleep Talk.

I didn't mean to say super effectively, lol, my mistake. I meant everything at least neutrally. Fixed.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Mega Aggron: C- Rank ---> C+ Rank

Mega Aggron is severely underrated right now, and it is most definitely not C- Rank. Lately, I've been using it a bunch on an offensive team with a spread of 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe and an Adamant nature. "But unfixable! What kind of spread is that?" Well, dear friend, it's a Rock Polish set! You may be thinking: has he gone mad? Rock Polish Mega Aggron? Why yes! I've been using Rock Polish Mega Aggron lately and I'm so impressed. People are overlooking how it has an Attack stat of 140. That's very big, and is only 5 less than Landorus-Therian. Now you're looking at its base 50 Speed. What does that outspeed? Everything up to Adamant Mega Aerodactyl! A set of Rock Polish | Heavy Slam | Ice Punch | Earthquake is able to effectively hit everything at least for neutral damage in OU, bar the incredibly common Surskit. Heavy Slam is insanely powerful, and Mega Aggron is very very heavy, so many things will be hit for a large sum of damage. It's best left for late game, after the opposing team is weakened. Without investment, Mega Aggron isn't even going to be bopped by physical attacks. Choice Band Terrakion doesn't even KO after a layer of Spikes, for example! The icing on the cake, in my opinion, is its excellent synergy with Celebi. Celebi is so powerful to combine with because it passes a Swords Dance onto Mega Aggron. This is just so amazing, and the strategy has been performing very well. I think Mega Aggron's so powerful and has excellent opportunities to set up. However, Mega Aggron faces competition from Mega Metagross because it, too, has Rock Polish. Using Mew as an example, it takes 66.8-78.5% while Mega Metagross does 62.4 - 73.9%. Against a lot of foes, Mega Aggron will be more powerful because it can run an Adamant nature. In comparison, Meteor Mash does 117 and Heavy Slam does 120 (to most foes). Is this big enough? Not really. But, it does have perfect accuracy which is probably a niche enough. Mega Aggron's synergy with Celebi and ability to set up Rock Polish on a variety of foes, unlike Mega Metagross gives it a respectable niche and I think it definitely deserves the raise. I really don't feel you can compare Mega Aggron to Noivern, Zygarde, and Espeon, who all receive much larger competition and opportunity cost than Mega Aggron. Mega Aggron's possibly not a C+ Rank threat, that could be an over exaggeration, but I do feel C- is not doing Mega Aggron justice. Instead, a high placement is in order for it.

Here's a replay of Mega Aggron in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-221602450.

I actually agree with it rising but not because your rock polish set but the tank set. It's spdef set even with barely any physical bulk investment(only 16 and impish) it has the ability to wall mega metagross which is one very impressive feat and it also walls other stuff like bisharp,ttar, among others. However I will agree C- isn't doing it justice.

Edit: I was gonna nom mega latias to A+ just because it is one of the only landorus-i counters and that alone merits an A+,and it can handle keldeo better then regular latias which is also nice.

 

[AM]

Yeah if M-Aggron rises you got to sell us on something more than its SpDef Tank set which in reality is actually extremely mediocre in a lot of games for the fact that even with SpDef investment plenty of specially offensive wall-breakers and attackers can still take advantage of it. I mean Rock Polish is cool and all unfixable but the replay only showed an M-Aggron supplemented by SD Pass Celebi which only makes the case it needs some actual support to get it going against a team that had a Thundurus to mitigate speed control in the back. Maybe it was Defiant and perhaps that was the reason why they didn't bring it out but the fact Thundurus was found on a rain team primarily usually indicates Rain supporter which normally runs Prankster with the possiblity of Thunder Wave anyways. I guess I'm confused as to how the replay can actually suffice when it was a team in the way it was played gave you the win on a silver platter.

So my question is that how does it match up with the rest of the subrank you're trying to advocate it for when you take into the practicality, team support required if any, and competition of the mega slot as a whole? Perhaps your right in that you can't compare it to Espeon, Noivern, and Zygarde but now you need to compare it to the other higher rank in a similar vein to any promotion we're reviewing.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Ok, my thoughts on some of the current nominations.


Empoleon from B- to B: Agree
It's walling capabilities are quite good, and it's utility options aren't too shabby either. Furthermore, Scald is a decently damaging move and not just "fishing for burns." It's also a pretty efficient fairy killer, making it good with Mega Sableye. It's a shame it doesn't get roost, though.

Skarmory from B+ to A-: Agree
The suicide lead set is the balls, probably the best one for hazard stacking atm. I don't really know much about defensive set, but seems to have been used to great effect by other members that have been posting. Also, I run whirlwind over an attacking move on the suicide lead set to keep it from being setup bait by Megazard X and the like.

Starmie from A to A+: Disagree
Okay, this I have plenty of expiriance with, and I can tell you that it is not A+ rank. The defensive set has merit, which is why it's in A rank. The offensive set fits onto HO builds better than any other spinner, and it also has good coverage and power. However, there is a profound reason to why I disagree. It's due to the fact that I use it because I have to, not because I want to. I put it in a spot where I would much rather have one of the latis, usually because I want to keep my hazards on the field. It's overall inferior to many offensive and defensive pokemon, and sees all of its usage due to rapid spin. The reflect type defensive set is nice, but is still beat by anything that can muscle past (which is quite a few pokemon) due to it's low defenses for a defensive pokemon. Most of the reason that I say that it should stay A rank is because it's used because of rapid spin, and wouldn't be used otherwise if it didn't have it, unlike other hazard removers. Lati@s would still be the potent special attackers they always were, and excadrill would still be a potent sand sweeper.

Megacham from C+ to B/B-: Agree
Something with as much immediate power as Megacham is unheard of. It can send Most stall mons running for cover with a nuclear Hi Jump Kick, and a few more with zen headbutt. Overall I'm pretty indifferent about this one, but his power is just extreme. Opportunity cost is pretty high, tho.

Ah, man. I'll post more later (mostly on MAggron) but this post is already dragged out sooooo... Ciao.

Also, I don't think Giritina-O will ever be ou, it's just too strong.

Edit: Someone posted something on giritina-O: the posts were hidden by AM.

 

[FaZeBoo]

Lol i find it ironic that mandibuzz went down when giratina suspect happened- But again, that's pokemon.
Anyways, im here to Agree with Starmie to A+
Starmie is in my opinion the best spinner for the reason that drill needs sand. Starmie shows more flexibility on teambuilding, especially with reflect type and the versatility it receives. it fits in to HO, bulky o, balance, and has a nice defensive set, not to mention its amazing movepool. It has one of the most covering moveset with utility, recovery, (hehe pun) and sheer offense.

 

[ChinChinLives]

Mandi still went down? Come on guys :[

Well that aside, i don't think empoleon as a water type heatran is a very valid assesment for one main reason: its not stopping clefable.
heatran has taunt and lava plume to slowly wear it down while still being able to take boosted moonblasts with a 4x resist.
Perhaps empoleon has yawn and roar and all that crap but its really not forcing Cm clefable to lose, if anything clefable is setting up vs it. Empoleon ultimately isn't even a check to Cm clefable, and that's one of the biggest reasons people would even want a steel.

To expand upon its steel typing, another reason people want steels is to stop dragons, char-x and garchomp mostly. Well heatran does a pretty ok job of stopping char-x, and skarm does a mostly good job of stopping garchomp and altaria (without fire blast ofc), ferro and zor can kinda stop kyu-b. But what dragons does empoleon stop? Its getting nuked by flare blitz from char-x, decimated from eq from garchomp and altaria, and fusion bolt/earth power from kyu-b.

So while its water/steel typing may look attractive, it can't stop either dragons or fairies. And that's pretty much the reason people even use steels...

Properties that you'd expect of a bulky water, such as being able to stop other fires and waters, aren't really there with empoleon either. Its obviously neutral to fire and the two most common water attackers, keldeo and azu, can blow past it pretty easily with secret sword or superpower, respectively. It can't check any of the new megas either, despite resisting mmetas stab's it just dies to hammer arm.

The somewhat useful grass neutrality is once again kinda destroyed when you realize the relevant grass type mons in the tier (breloom, chesnaught, mvenu, amoong, celebi, ferrothorn) are either too bulky for anything you do to matter or just destroy you with their secondary stab.
If i had to use emopoleon i'd rather go with some weird ass specs set of hydro/ib/flas cannon/hp grass or some shit.

So while it has utility and all that, it doesn't use its typing well. I don't think it should raise.

Empoleon can just switch in on a calm mind and roar, it's not like +1 Moonblast 2hko's on the switch.

 

[firehusky]

Nominating Starmie for A+

A ---> A+

I agree with Starmie moving up to A+. It has a solid defensive typing, making it a great answer to Pokemon such as Keldeo and Mega Metagross lacking Grass Knot. It makes for a solid rapid spinner thanks to its nice base 115 speed and it's ability to defeat gengar, the most common spinblocker. Its great speed tier also allows it to outspeed the plethora of base 110s out there, making it a nice revenge killer to Pokemon such as Protect + 3 attacks mega diancie. It has many nice options such as reflect type to block leech seed and pursuit from the likes of Ferrothorn and Bisharp, respectively, and also has reliable recovery in the form of recover which makes it hard to wear down. Natural Cure is also great for getting rid of status, making it much harder to wear down. Offensive Analytic sets hit really hard and it has many cool coverage options such as thunderbolt, ice beam, and grass knot (nails seismitoad and mega gyarados). Offensive starmie can grab many opportunities to spin away hazards thanks to its solid coverage and decent power which allows it to force many switches, and switching also gives Starmie an analytic boost making it harder to check.

To sum it up, Starmie offers solid defensive utility by checking some top tier threats such as keldeo and mega metagross, while also having reliable recovery and reflect type to mess with Pokemon such as ferrothorn and bisharp. Natural Cure also allows Starmie to get rid of status making it much harder to wear down. Starmie is also one of the best offensive rapid spinners at the moment due to how reliant excadrill is on sand, and powerful analytic boosted hydro pumps and solid coverage to boot. When looking for an offensive Pokemon that can effectively remove hazards and be a solid cleaner without much team support, while also offering some defensive utility, starmie is usually your #1 choice.

 

[MilkyWay]

Lol i find it ironic that mandibuzz went down when giratina suspect happened- But again, that's pokemon.
Anyways, im here to Agree with Starmie to A+
Starmie is in my opinion the best spinner for the reason that drill needs sand. Starmie shows more flexibility on teambuilding, especially with reflect type and the versatility it receives. it fits in to HO, bulky o, balance, and has a nice defensive set, not to mention its amazing movepool. It has one of the most covering moveset with utility, recovery, (hehe pun) and sheer offense.

This thread doesn't take suspect tests into account, only the current OU metagame. If Giratina does happen to get unbanned Madibuzz will probably go up, but for now we treat it as if the suspect test isn't happening.

 

[bludz]

Mega Medicham C+ to B-

I agree with this. The immediate power is quite hard to switch into especially for a lot of balance teams and I just don't really see it as being on the same level as stuff like Bronzong and Magneton, it fits more with stuff like Lucario and Mega Chomp IMO.

Starmie A to A+

I don't agree here. Starmie is awesome but it has some notable weaknesses that prevent it from being A+. First of all while its bulky set checks Keldeo amazingly and is a reliable spinner, it's really easy to take advantage of with bulky setup sweepers like SD Gliscor and it can be easily spinblocked by Mega Sableye. The offensive set packs a lot more power but its worn down more easily than the best hazard remover in the tier (Latios) and forgoes recovery usually. It's a really solid mon in the current metagame but I don't think things have gotten so good for it that it's A+.

Skarmory B+ to A-

Definitely agree with this. Custap lead set is awesome for HO and more conventional defensive sets still wall a ton of things while having multiple utility options. Sure Skarmory is hard countered by a lot of special attackers but it does its job really well and can do a variety of things like Defog, set up hazards or phaze setup sweepers. I think the Custap set is enough to push it up.

Not sure how I feel about Empoleon.

I haven't used or played against Tyrantrum or Alakazam very much so I have no comment on those for now.