Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

[skies]

Hey friends! So sorry for the hold up, we were trying to put together a slate. Please, in the future, do not rush us! We're trying very hard to make a slate, and we all have lives outside of Smogon, too (besides Mysteria). We apologize for holding you guys up for about a week or so, but we're here now. Without further ado, our next Theorymon!

Dragon | Intimidate | Contrary | Raichu
45 | 13 | 13 | 4

Our new winner is Mega Aggron + Dragon-typing.

Now, for a brand new exciting slate!

Water / Steel Carracosta

• STAB Iron Head
• Better defensive typing
• Thus allows more set up opportunities
• Improved over Rock
• Solid Rock is great with this

Dragon Dance Glalie

• After one DD, Good Luck Charlie
• Improves somewhat lacking Speed
• Explosion / Return will be hard to stop
• Ice Shard is no longer needed
• Gives it a niche as a sweeper

Belly Drum Floatzel

• High Speed makes it a good sweeper
• Waterfall will hurt like hell
• !learn Floatzel, Baton Pass
• Can't be Burned
• Appropriate coverage all around

Dark Aura Spiritomb creds to Pipotchi

• Pursuit / Sucker Punch are a lot more powerful
• Great check to Latios / Latias
• Unique typing, bar Sableye
• Gives it a respectable niche
• More offensive presence than before

Get to discussing!

 

[Red Cat]

Spiritomb is still slow and not that powerful and it has no reliable recovery. Carracosta is basically Empoleon 2.0. So that leaves us with Mega Glalie and Floatzel. Floatzel has no bulk, so it is going to be hard to set up a BD and it will be extremely vulnerable to revenge killing. Mega Glalie can hit hard with its Ice STAB after a DD, but I don't know if it is really worth using over Zard-X or Mega Altaria since it has a hard time setting up DD with its sub-par bulk and terrible defensive typing. I don't know what I'd vote for at this point.

Edit: IAmNumberWan is right. Carracosta isn't Empoleon 2.0; it's Empoleon 0.5.

 

[skies]

Spiritomb is still slow and not that powerful and it has no reliable recovery. Carracosta is basically Empoleon 2.0. So that leaves us with Mega Glalie and Floatzel. Floatzel has no bulk, so it is going to be hard to set up a BD and it will be extremely vulnerable to revenge killing. Mega Glalie can hit hard with its Ice STAB after a DD, but I don't know if it is really worth using over Zard-X or Mega Altaria since it has a hard time setting up DD with its sub-par bulk and terrible defensive typing. I don't know what I'd vote for at this point.

Empoleon and Carracosta are not comparable in any way. Carracosta is a Shell Smash sweeper, Empoleon is a defensive wall with Defog. The only comparable thing is their typings. Don't just discount it for this reason.

 

[Red Cat]

Empoleon and Carracosta are not comparable in any way. Carracosta is a Shell Smash sweeper, Empoleon is a defensive wall with Defog. The only comparable thing is their typings. Don't just discount it for this reason.

Shell Smash? With 36 base speed? Have fun getting revenge killed by Keldeo and Thundurus. Losing STAB Stone Edge is actually a bad thing for the set.

Edit: I guess Jolly actually outspeeds them at +2, but it isn't going to be hitting very hard and is still checked by Keldeo.

 

[skies]

Shell Smash? With 36 base speed? Have fun getting revenge killed by Keldeo and Thundurus. Losing STAB Stone Edge is actually a bad thing for the set.

Carracosta reaches 358 Speed, Thundurus reaches 353.

 

[heritage]

Still pretty sick at the moment, but I'm going to say how fantastic Steel / Water Carracosta is. It may loose STAB on Stone Edge, but in return, it gains not only a fantastic defensive typing, but STAB Iron Head and a great way to deal with Fairy types. This typing resists a lot of common attacking types, such as Flying, Rock, and so on, not to mention it has Solid Rock, giving it plenty of free opportunities to come in and Shell Smash. It is really slow for a sweeper, but a fantastic 133 base Defense means most physical attackers won't leave a dent. Some of these calcs at +2 are pretty terrifying too.

calcs

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 367-434 (104.2 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 289-343 (73.3 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 187-220 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 259-305 (64.1 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 434-512 (107.4 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 270-320 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 335-395 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Belly Drum Floatzel is pretty neat as well, being able to Baton Pass a Belly Drum into things such as Talonflame, M-Altaria, M-Metagross, like holy crap, I'm not going to lie, that's flat out terrifying. Not to mention, Floatzel on its own is nice since its Ability means it can't get Burned, unlike Azumarill. It also has a pretty nice Speed tier, which is nice for a sweeper.

After seeing some of the calcs for Dark Aura Spritomb, having Foul Play boosted by that means no physical attacker is going to get away unscathed. It OHKOs Excadrill, Mega Charizard X after Rocks, Mega Metagross, and Talonflame, while cleanly 2HKOing defensive Mega Scizor, Bisharp and Latias. Not to mention that it also boosts Dark Pulse, meaning Spritomb can run a pretty neat Nasty Plot / Calm Mind set similarly to Mega Sableye. Its typing is also fantastic, being weak to only Fairy types, giving it a pretty solid niche over other Nasty Plot users such as Thundurus.

Fuck Glalie.

 

[Red Cat]

Those Carracosta calcs look sexy, but what is not so sexy is getting walled by nearly every Water type in OU. The problems with Carracosta as a Shell Smash sweeper are that is has terrible coverage and low base power STABs, it is revenge killed by most scarfers and fast megas because it is still not that fast at +2 (and its defenses are at -1 because it really needs that Life Orb), and it has a hard time finding opportunities to set up due to low base speed and terrible special defense (Solid Rock helps, but it isn't going to save Carracosta from a powerful special attack). Carracosta has zero viability in OU as a Shell Smash sweeper and I don't think a shift in its typing is going to bring it up very far if at all.

 

[IAmNumberWan]

Carracosta is basically Empoleon 2.0.

LOL no.
I will protect thy penguin from this naive fool.

Carrocosta is burdened with worse stats. The 2 things it has over empoleon are shell smash, and a higher defence. The higher defence doesn't really help much when your typing is weak to both ground and fighting types aka 2 of the most common physical attackers (kinda why empoleon is a common special wall in uu). Shell smash leaves it prone to being revenge killed by common mach punch users. Not only that shell smash weakens your high defence

Otherwise everything it does empoleon does better. Empoleon has a offensive presence while remaining specially bulky. Empoleon sets up rocks more reliably and can defog. It's special attack is higher than it's attack. Empoleon CAN go on the offensive and outspeed everything after a agility (plus it's naturally faster) and rip things apart with torrent boosted hydro pumps. Empoleon has better coverage (ice beam/surf/grass knot hits LITERALLY hits everything for neutral damage except shedinja) Empoleon can even check some physical threats with scald. There are even some niche sets which allow it to counter some threats (Air Balloon Empoleon one shots dragons like salamence which is common in it's tier) Overall, Empo has the option of being supportive and offensive. Carrcosta is really frickin slow (alot of walls FRICKING outspeed it) Most times rather than not, you'll find empoleon will live alot longer than carracosta

Steel Penguin>>>>>>>>Steel Turtle

 

[Celticpride]

Shell Smash Carracosta is kinda meh. The typing helps but the speed still isn't great. When I'm looking to use something as a speed booster I wanna pass most common Scarfers. Steel > Rock defensively, but Rock is overall more spammable than Steel as an offensive STAB. Ya can always use SE as coverage, but Carracosta also has to deal with 4mss between various coverage moves. Not a terrible idea but seems a little underwelming overall the more I think about it.

Dragon Dance Mega Glalie has no flavor whatsoever could be a really well rounded addition. Beats Scarf Lando-T handily, which is always good I guess. Good mixed DD potential with Freeze-Dry and EQ, and can run Mega Gyarados-esque Taunt|Sub-DD sets. My personal favorite right now.

Belly Drum Floatzel will has some trouble passing that boost imo. It doesn't had the bulk to talk a priority hit unlike Azu, and Drum can only realistically be set up once, unlike NastyPass Celebi who can potentially pass multiple times. I don't think BP is a huge selling point here. However, Drum at its speed is scary. Drum Azu's biggest downfall is an over reliance on Aqua Jet to make up for the less than great speed, Floatzel has no such issue. It actually has pretty barren coverage but enough to get by I think.

Dark Aura Spiritomb could be really nice. Bulky, priority STAB, and trapping make it a great utility piece. Max attack also hits harder than LO Bisharp unboosted while having better typing and bulk, so there's that. Really solid nom here and probably the other place my vote might go atm. CM RestTalk could also be pretty good, because:

+6 0 SpA Dread Plate Dark Aura Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 327-385 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO

Where's the answer defensively? Unaware Clefable I guess.

 

[GnralLao]

Alright! Congrats to Dialga's slower brother (hehehe)! Now, my thoughts on Carracosta (this is taking longer than I thought and I'm busy watching a hockey game [insert canadian stereotype], but I'll post on the others later on):

Water/Steel Carracosta: By replacing its Rock-type by a Steel-type, Carracosta gains numerous resistances (or is less weak to certain types) such as to Water, Ice, Poison (it's something...), Psychic, Bug, Rock, Dragon, Fairy and most notably Steel (from neutral to quad resist) and Grass (from quad weak to neutral). That's got to be pretty good! Unfortunately, I think there's still many things holding it back from being effective at... whatever it can do.

Firstly, its Atk stat (base 108), while not so bad, is somewhat lackluster to OU standards making boosting its Atk via Shell Smash or Curse mandatory (is Choice Band a thing to consider though?) for the steel-shelled tortoise to be threatening at some point.

Secondly, if Carracosta needs to setup in a way or another, it'll be vulnerable to a large number of threats due to its subpar HP and SpDef stats (base 74 and 65 respectively). Having Solid Rock is pretty neat to help its case, but let's look at another mon with certain similarities ability- and stat-wise (I'm not comparing their roles at all): Rhyperior. Both have Solid Rock, a nice Def stat and a puny SpDef stat. However, there's a major difference between Rhyperior and Carracosta in the HP stat (base 115 and base 74 respectively). Having Solid Rock is neat, but when it isn't backed by a nice HP stat, I don't think it would make a big difference in the capacity of tanking SE hits for Carracosta as to what Rhyperior can actually tank.

Lastly, it is my duty to point out its most obvious flaw of them all: its Speed (at this point, it's more like its walkingness). Like the tortoise it is, Carracosta is slow af (base 32) and if it wants to sweep at the best of its ability, it must be Jolly with 252 Speed EVs to achieve a Speed stat of 358 after a Shell Smash, which makes it outspeed everything up to Serperior (and speed-tie witn ScarfZone). But even after a Shell Smash, there's still many threats that outspeeds it, which means Carracosta will often be overly reliant on Aqua Jet to deal with those faster threats. One situation that comes to my mind (even though it might seem like an absolute worst case scenario, il will happen in a way or another) is a fast threat (say MegaMan) coming in on a predicted Shell Smash:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 134-160 (47.6 - 56.9%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 324-382 (111.7 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, let's not forget that Carracosta will be hard walled by bulky waters (Volcanion says hi):

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 101-121 (25.6 - 30.7%) -- 2.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 97-116 (24 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 109-129 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 30.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 121-142 (30.7 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (unfair calc, but oh well)

That's all I have to say about Blastoise's cousin for now.

For the other mons:
I kinda like Spiritomb with super strong Pursuits, Sucker Punches, Dark Pulses and Foul Plays (against physical attackers of course), but I'm not sure that's enough for Spiritomb to be legitimately used in OU.

Even though Floatzel has paper thin defenses, I think that thing is way too strong: being able to pass up to two Bell Drums in a game is just plain unfair and unhealthy for the metagame.

Finally, I think DD is the buff Glalie needed to be legitimately considered as your Mega slot. I like this thing. Hard hitting, great speed, priority and a fast BOOM. Will vote for that (unless I'm converted AoE style LOLOLOLOL).

 

[Red Cat]

I did a quick little bashing of the theorymons before (especially Carracosta which I'm happy to see most other people think it isn't good either). I'll go in to more detail about why I'm not really thrilled with any of these. When judging a theorymon, I think it is important to focus on what they can't do as much as what they can do. All of these Pokemon have serious flaws which make them shit in OU, so they need significant buffs to become viable.

Water / Steel Carracosta: I've already talked a lot about this and others have, so you can just read previous posts about why Carracosta cannot be salvaged as a Shell Smash sweeper.

Dark Aura Spiritomb: First of all, why did the council choose Dark Aura when it is completely outclassed by Adaptability? I know it makes more sense flavorwise, but it doesn't help Spiritomb much. Spiritomb has no reliable STAB to abuse Dark Aura with. Sucker Punch relies on your opponent attacking, so it is an excellent opportunity for your opponent to get a free switch or use a boosting or status move. Pursuit only does good damage to psychic and ghost types and even then only if they switch: 0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 162-192 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Yeah really, Gengar can just stay in there and WoW Spiritomb. Its best reliable physical STAB is Faint Attack. It does have Dark Pulse, but are you going to give up Sucker Punch, Pursuit, or Foul Play to use it unless you are using CM RestTalk? Foul Play depends on your opponent's attack, so obviously they are going to bring in a special attacker or wall that doesn't care much about it. Oh btw, did I mention Spiritomb is basically dead weight against stall outside of CM RestTalk? Speaking of CM RestTalk, Spiritomb is not Suicune. It doesn't have the bulk to survive the sleeping turns. The calcs Celticpride did against Chansey have two flaws. First, Chansey has an inferior spread in his calc. 4HP / 252 SpD is much better than 252HP / 4 SpD. Second, it has Dread Plate, and trust me, Spiritomb is really going to miss those lefties while it's sleeping. +6 0 SpA Dark Aura Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 219-258 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. You are probably going to run out of Dark Pulse PP before you kill it. Offensive teams can just overwhelm CM RestTalk Spiritomb with physical attackers and uninvested Dark Pulse isn't going to threaten them too much. Really, just stick to using Mega Sableye because it outclasses Spiritomb in every way except for having to use your mega slot.

Dragon Dance Mega Glalie: This is another Pokemon where I wish the council would have picked a better buff for. Both flavor wise and competitively, Shell Smash would have been a better choice. Glalie can still be checked by most of the same stuff as before even with Dragon Dance.
0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 120-144 (39.6 - 47.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 138-164 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Glalie Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I hate PS damage calculator.
Keldeo and Rotom-W still check though and Mega Metagross can check if either it isn't running a -defense nature, Mega Glalie is not running Adamant nature, or SR isn't on the field. Ferrothorn counters with Gyro Ball. Assault Vest Azumarill counters. Mega Scizor counters. Mega Sableye can check and burn it. Priority and fast scarfers can also kill it pretty easily.
At least with Shell Smash, Mega Glalie would have the possibility to sweep once all priority users are gone. Sigh...

Belly Drum Floatzel: This should win by default. I still think it will be hard to find an opportunity to BD, but at least it is somewhat threatening if it succeeds.
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Return vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 271-319 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Finally we found something which kills Rotom-W!!!
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 255-301 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's at least something we can work with. It can still be revenge killed, but some revenge killers like Scarf Landorus-T and Adamant Talonflame have to watch out for Aqua Jet. The ability to Baton Pass to a bulky threat like Dragonite or Mega Metagross certainly sounds scary.

So basically, vote for BD Floatzel. It is the only viable threat here.

 

[Celticpride]

Dragon Dance Mega Glalie: This is another Pokemon where I wish the council would have picked a better buff for. Both flavor wise and competitively, Shell Smash would have been a better choice. Glalie can still be checked by most of the same stuff as before even with Dragon Dance.
0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 120-144 (39.6 - 47.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 138-164 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Glalie Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
At least with Shell Smash, Mega Glalie would have the possibility to sweep once all priority users are gone. Sigh...

Your calcs should run Mega Glalie, not regular Glalie...

 

[pika pal]

So far I'm probably most torn between Spiritomb and Glalie.

Yveltal in Ubers has already shown that many very useful moves for either a defensive or offensive mon get that Dark Aura Boost, and Spirtomb's bulk is already at least as good as Rotom-W. STAB Dark Aura Foul Play does a number on a lot of OU, since many of its neutral targets, investing or not, have decently high attack stats naturally, not to mention the abundance of physical attackers already.
0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 186-219 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 162-192 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 318-374 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 264-312 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 201-237 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 224-266 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 272-324 (67.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There's at least a few good targets for those. Not sure he'll find too much to use Sucker Punch or Pursuit against, but they're options.

My one issue with Glalie is that, while potent offensively, Ice is still a horrendous defensive typing, and his overall coverage is mediocre. Unlike, say, Zard-X or Altaria, Glalie isn't going to find itself able to possibly tank a hit to get up more than one boost, especially since its bulk isn't any better either. Refrigerate boosted moves do give it decent coverage with STABs and EQ, but while it makes it easier for Glalie to sweep, many of the things that walled him before still Wall him now.

Dragon Dance Mega Glalie: This is another Pokemon where I wish the council would have picked a better buff for. Both flavor wise and competitively, Shell Smash would have been a better choice. Glalie can still be checked by most of the same stuff as before even with Dragon Dance.
0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 120-144 (39.6 - 47.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 138-164 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Glalie Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
At least with Shell Smash, Mega Glalie would have the possibility to sweep once all priority users are gone. Sigh...

Should look more like this
0 SpA Mega Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Glalie Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 238-282 (79 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


As for Floatzel, my big issue with it is that I can't think fo any real chance it would get to set up that BD. Its bulk is pathetic, even with a good speed tier, and unlike Azumarill, its offenses unboosted are not high enough to threaten anything but a SE target out, especially lacking a secondary STAB. People also note the ability to pass that boost, but unless Floatzel passes that relatively quickly, it's not always going to pan out. Odds are if something is out that can cripple a +6 Floatzel with that speed, even if he BP's, the switch-in could be just as vulnerable to the crippling attempt, be it a Phazer, TW (no one would try a burn on him, so switch doesn't have that to fear), some bulky resisting wall, or just a faster Scarfer.

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Floatzel: 332-392 (106.7 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 240-283 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 150-177 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


Yeah, maybe there's not much that can switch in, but this is something that needs 50% of its health to Boost relying on 85/55/50 bulk or 105 offense to threaten something out. With how the metagame is shifting into bulky offense, not to mention powerful tanks and resistors like our own recently added Mega Agrron (if other Theorymons are to consider with the ladder now), finding something to beat him before he boosts, or even just tank a hit and revenge after the boost isn't as tall an order as it would seem.

+6 252 Atk Floatzel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 121-143 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Steel/Dragon)
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 195-229 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Steel)

 

[Kabuu]

Going to be brief because I'm sick and it's difficult to do a well-thought out analysis of everything. Many of this stuff might have been said already but I'm saying it again for posterity's sake.

Water/Steel Carracosta is too slow even after a Shell Smash and its coverage isn't too bad but it isn't good either. Also, you need LO to kill things so White Herb isn't a option, so you're going to be very frail, especially on the special side. It's good in theory, but kind of falls short.

Dragon Dance Mega Glalie also seems quite good, but you still get walled by Water-types, even with Freeze Dry and while its bulk is decent, it isn't the best. Also flavor isn't too strong here (Shell Smash might be better, which in that case RIP everything because a +2 Freeze Dry kills most Water-types and does a sizable chunk to bulkier ones).

Belly Drum Floatzel is hella frail (even walls with decent attacking stats, i.e. Power Whip Ferrothorn, will be able to kill it) and it can't force stuff out unboosted unless they're weak to Water. Even boosted it can still be crippled or forced out.

Dark Aura Spiritomb seems like the strongest thing on the slate, but even that isn't too solid. It has good bulk and a good typing, and it isn't exactly a sitting duck with 92/92 offenses. Any Dark-type move, whether it be Pursuit or Sucker Punch or any other Dark-type move, it will hurt. A lot. But, it's completely outclassed by Mega Sableye, as that has recovery, Magic Bounce and better stats all around. I could see Dark Aura Spiritomb being a strong UU 'mon, but OU is a bit of a stretch as long as Mega Sableye exists.

0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 162-192 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Don't think Showdown's damage calc supports Pursuit damage for switching-out 'mons.

0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 324-384 (125 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (80 BP)
0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 162-192 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (40 BP[80 BP if switching out])

 

[Mood4food77]

if sucker punch OHKOs, then pursuit will OHKO if gengar switches

 

[Red Cat]

Don't think Showdown's damage calc supports Pursuit damage for switching-out 'mons.

0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 324-384 (125 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (80 BP)
0 Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 162-192 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (40 BP[80 BP if switching out])

The point I was trying to make in my post is that Gengar wouldn't even have to switch out against Spiritomb because Pursuit doesn't get the power boost if Gengar does not switch out. Furthermore, if Gengar decides to use Will-O-Wisp on Spiritomb, then Pursuit does only 31-37% damage to Gengar which sets up a 50/50 with Spiritomb. If Gengar decides the switch the next turn, then Gengar dies to Pursuit, but Spiritomb is crippled by the burn. If Gengar decides to stay in and use Hex, then Spiritomb gets down the the point where the burn has a chance to kill it while the second Pursuit still doesn't kill Gengar. You could click Sucker Punch, but then that gives Gengar a chance to get away by switching if your opponent predicts it. For a trapper to have a 50/50 chance of letting its target get away while also possibly dying in the process is really bad.

There's also other stuff that Spiritomb cannot Pursuit trap that Bisharp can. Bisharp can Pursuit trap Chansey because Chansey has to gtfo to avoid Knock Off, but Chansey will actually switch in to Spiritomb because Foul Play doesn't do shit and Chansey will never attack Spiritomb for Sucker Punch while Chansey can Toxic Spiritomb or just use it for free turns to heal itself or its teammates. Spiritomb is also an open invitation for Mega Slowbro to come on in and start boosting with Calm Mind, and you know it's bad when a Psychic type is using a Dark type with Dark Aura as setup bait.

 

[AM]

Lol Spritomb gets Imprison, Psych Up, Spite, Nasty Plot, Taunt and Curse. M-Slowbro isn't setting up on it unless you're using old sets that pretty much go out the window when it comes to theorymonning cause they change the sets based on the meta with that particular slate. So I have no idea where you're getting this illusion of M-Slowbro setting up on Spiritomb. Also wth is that calc with 0 atk Spiritomb above rofl. If you're gonna pursuit something actually take the effort to bump the attack up.

 

[Teeny Victory]

Looks really cool! Here's my thoughts on this slate:

Carracosta + Steel Typing
Certainly an interesting buff (though it goes against the thing of all fossil mons being rock type, but who cares n_n). As we know from Empoleon, Steel + water is a great typing, boasting an immpressive 10 weaknesses and 1 immunity, albeit with 3 weaknesses to common types (ground fighting and electric), but the ground and fighting weakness are mostly physical, which is offset nicely by 'Costas immpressive 74/133 physical bulk. This gives 'Costa lots of chances to set up a shell smash, and then wreck havoc and clean up weakened teams.
Heres a set that I think would be comonly seen if this was a thing...

Smashing shells for days

Costaconcordia (Carracosta) @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Waterfall
- Return / knock off
- Iron Head
Pretty simple set, Shell Smash is the highlight here, with waterfall and iron head chosen as stab moves with decent neural coverage, and either return or knock off for the great coverage they net with both of 'Costas STAB's. Life orb is needed to actually dent walls, as 108 attack is only decent at best, and jolly max/max is chosen to outspeed Serperior at +2.

Floatzel + Belly Drum
Ooooh very interesting, Floatzel was always one of my fave mons, and this is a nice little buff. as we all know from azumarill, belly drum + aqua jet = profit, and Floatzel, albeit weaker, has its definitive niches over azumarill. The first thing that stands out is the much higher speed stat, 115 reaches that sexy speed tier and hits the OU benchmark, meaning it doesnt have to rely on aqua jet at +6 and can actually use waterfall every once in a while. The second niche is water veil, which means Floatzel cant be burned, this enables you to set up on heatran and bulky waters without fearing burns from lava plume/scald, which is something Azumarill wishes it could do safely.
Here are some calcs and a possible set...

Live by the life of the drum

I'm a boat (Floatzel) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Return
Again, pretty simple set, belly drum is the focus of the set, while waterfall and aqua jet are the Stabs of choice that hit very hard, return is chosen in the last slot for the fantastic coverage it nets with Water type move.

calcs at +6

+6 252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 316-373 (104.9 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 418-492 (129.4 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+5 252 Atk Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 237-279 (84.3 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Return vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 271-319 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 261-308 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 300-354 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 277-327 (91.1 - 107.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 255-301 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Return vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 317-374 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Floatzel Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 240-283 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So as you can see, Floatzel destroys offense at +6, and smashes weakened balance/stall teams once there bulky grass types/skarmorys have been weakened.

Glalie + Dragon Dance
>Glalie >dragon. All jokes aside, this one is pretty damn cool. I really like mega glalie, however I've always felt it was missing just one little something to send it skyrocketing in viability, I feel dragon dance is that thing.Return/Double edge are OHKOing pretty mich everything on offense bar keldeo and mega-meta, who are easy enough to wear down. This thing doesnt really need to boost against slower playstyes, you can just click double edge and watch things die, and use earthquake and freeze dry to get rid of those pesky ice resists such as heatran and slowbro. A very threatening mon, especially against offense, probably my favourite behind Floatzel so far.
Here are some calcs and a set.

watch me go boom

Glalie-Mega @ Glalitite
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 236 Atk / 88 SpA / 184 Spe
Naive Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Freeze-Dry
- Dragon Dance
EV's are to outspeed scarf lando at +1, 2HKO tail glow manaphy with freeze dry, and the rest dumped into attack to demolish everything

calcs

+1 236 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 236 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 238-282 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 236 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 195-229 (60.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 236 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 469-553 (157.9 - 186.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88 SpA Mega Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
88 SpA Mega Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 182-216 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
88 SpA Mega Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 192-228 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 236 Atk Mega Glalie Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 214-254 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 236 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 379-447 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 236 Atk Mega Glalie Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 306-360 (112.5 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pretty impressive IMO

Dark Aura Spiritomb
This one is also really cool, meet the flat out stop to all physical attackers everywhere everyone. I've played quite a bit of Ubers, and anyone who has even touched the surface of the Ubers meta will know how much of a threat Yveltal is, from defensive to offensive, and spiritomb is like a mini Yveltal! The only set i really see being viable is a defensive one and a CM Rest-Talk set, as offensive sets are outclassed by bisharp, as although spiritomb hits slightly harder, bisharp has access to knock of and a better STAB combo, as well as being much faster.
Here is a set I came up with and some calcs, I'll focus on the defensive set as I like it better and it has a more defined niche IMO

death to all ye physical attackers

DARKNESS (Spiritomb) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
This set focuses on pure utility, Foul play + will-o-wisp stops all physical attackers from setting up on it and makes it a very nice blanket check mon, and rest talk is for reliable recovery to heal off the damage once you burn something.

calcs

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 318-374 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Checks M-Meta very nicely
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 267-315 (87.8 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 0- Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 283-334 (95.2 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
A handy Back-up Zard-X check
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 246-289 (80.9 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0- Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 378-445 (134.5 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Stops M-Scizor Setting up on it
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0- Atk Dark Aura Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 399-471 (122 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Check SD Talon Very nicely
Obviuosly its not the bulkiest thing every, but dark aura foul play + will o wisp is extremely handy to blanket check allot of physical mons, and its quite a nice tank with rest-talk as well

Overall a very interesting slate, and I just spent 90 minutes analyzing it and making sets ;_;

 

[Red Cat]

Lol Spritomb gets Imprison, Psych Up, Spite, Nasty Plot, Taunt and Curse. M-Slowbro isn't setting up on it unless you're using old sets that pretty much go out the window when it comes to theorymonning cause they change the sets based on the meta with that particular slate. So I have no idea where you're getting this illusion of M-Slowbro setting up on Spiritomb. Also wth is that calc with 0 atk Spiritomb above rofl. If you're gonna pursuit something actually take the effort to bump the attack up.

Imprison? Psych Up? Spite? Nasty Plot on something with no speed and no good coverage moves? Taunt on something with 35 base speed? Curse on a Ghost type? As soon as you start investing in Spiritomb's attack, its bulk goes out the window. The truth is Spiritomb's movepool is missing the two moves it wishes it had most: Recover and Knock Off.

Edit: Look, Spiritomb is RU for a reason. It has a shitload of flaws. Its offenses are not good and even with Dark Aura, it is still not hitting very hard due to the fact that all of its moves are low base power moves. I mean, its Dark Aura Dark Pulse hits just marginally harder than Clefable's Moonblast. 50 / 108 / 108 defenses are okay, but not great especially when Spiritomb has no reliable recovery. Spiritomb has only 1 weakness, but it doesn't have many resistances either, so it is limited in the hits it can tank. In the end, what can Spiritomb do? It can threaten some stuff with Foul Play, but your opponent can just switch to Keldeo or a Fairy type and not give a shit. It can use WoW, but there are many other Pokemon that can do that. It can Pursuit trap a very small number of Pokemon, but Bisharp can do the same and a lot more effectively. It can revenge kill with Sucker Punch, but the target has to be either weak to the move or significantly weakened to be killed, and again you can just switch out because there is no consequence to the Pokemon that comes in. Spiritomb's movepool is very barren and it has a severe case of 508 EV syndrome since it needs to invest in offense to hit very hard at all and it also needs EVs in defense to be able to tank hits. Then you have to choose between Lefties and Dread Plate which further compromises either its offense or defenses. In the end, it is not going very far up from its current unviable status just because of a 20% boost to only its Dark type attacks. At best it would rise to D rank, at worst it is still an F and a complete waste of time.

 

[AM]

Lol you used the failed logic of assuming Slowbro just sets up on Spirtomb I was only addressing that. If you're gonna call out the negatives at least make a point that's relevant than trying to downplay a flaw that realistically doesn't exist lol. Not particularly fond of the slate but let's not just make up these biased battle scenarios to totally shit on an idea and act like the next coming of jesus in battling and assume it's gonna run the same old stuff it does in lower tiers.

 

[Isa Simple]

Floatzel @ Flame Orb
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe or 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Switcheroo
- Belly Drum
- Baton Pass
- Waterfall / Aqua Jet

This would be a fun supportive set for Floatzel. Switcheroo + Flame Orb with Water Veil will make for a nasty surprise to cripple any physical attackers for the rest of the game, unless they too are immune to Burn or have Switcheroo / Trick. Then you've got the Belly Pass combo to put one of your allied physical attackers on steroids, and a choice of STAB so that you yourself aren't just dead weight.
So basically you can hyper nerf an opposing physical attacker, or hyper buff an allied physical attacker.

But its like everyone says Floatzel is just so flimsy it would be so hard to set up. That's why I think Switcheroo Flame Orb would be its best option because the threat of the perma burn may force switches and allow for set up. Or they assume you'll set up and get perma burned. So you are at least forcing 50/50s to give yourself a better chance.

I think that Floatzel will be mediocre in the meta, but it is just such a unique support pokemon that would be so fun to use, hence I can definitely see myself voting for this.

Spiritomb is also really cool. I remember using it in UU not too long ago as one of the best spin blockers as it could beat Mega Blastoise. Dark Aura boosted Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Foul Play and Dark Pulse would definitely give it some strong utility and niches, but I'm too tired to elaborate further atm.

 

[SparksBlade]

k short and simple views here

Carracosta-water/Steel-cool imo, but stabs are now held on by bulky waters so needs a way around(it gets grass knot iirc but then it's a toss up b/w awua jet and grass knot in last slot imo)
Floatzel+BD-it's very frail compared to azu so will have difficulty pulling it off, and passing it should be impossible against balance, tho ofc it kinda demolishes stall i guess if brick break is good on it
Glalie+DD-now this is very rude towards the meta, nice thing that it hates many priorities and every hazard
Spiritomb+Dark Aura- now this is unexpected cos i really expected recover here, tho i initially thought it's a long shot, AM's post has got me curious about this

k this is a nice slate cos im unsure about all of these, gj council/committee/lazy nerds/theorymoners

 

[TheBraveGallade]

Another thing about mega glalie is that it can ALWAYS THRETEN TO GO BOOM. Even without it it provides pressure. Ferro will NOT come out on an eq, or keldeo for fear of explosion. Not much can afford to stay IN on a mega glalie(just in case) so that is a free ddance

 

[Sacrificial Lambtias]

This slate is really boring to me. I have flavor issues with the two that get the best buffs, but I'm very underwhelmed by the two that have flavor-worthy buffs.
Water/Steel Carracosta is weird to me due to the fact that all fossil Pokemon are part rock type.
Belly Drum Floatzel is very frail, making Belly Drum gimmicky on it.
Dragon Dance Glalie sounds great, but it doesn't make any sense.
Dark Aura Spiritomb is kind of good, but it still falls short of OU standards. It'd probably be great in UU, though.

I don't support flavorless buffs, so Dark Aura Spiritomb is probably my pick for this slate.

 

[DylanTubularK]

Water/Steel Carracosta
Interesting...? I think a lot has been said already. 36 Base Speed sucks, even after a Shell Smash, and this thing is considerably outclassed by Cloyster. Cloyster can break through sashes, due to the fact that it has skill link, which is, needless to say, a lot more trouble than one would think for some people. Specifically me because I sash almost all my Pokemon. That being said, somebody said something earlier about how Carracosta can outspeed Thundy if Carracosta is Jolly, it still can't outspeed any priority, unless it's running Aqua Jet. And about Aqua Jet... +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 220-259 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Yikes. And that's IF you're running Life Orb. So, naturally, Pokemon have to be quite damaged in most scenarios before you start sweeping with Carracosta, unless you're using it as a wallbreaker. Which is... questionable, to say the least, but it's something. Water/Steel Carracosta doesn't seem like much of a buff to much, so much as it's different from how Carracosta already is and I really don't think this is what the doctor perscribed for Carracosta. As we all know from Kabutops, Rock/Water is a great offensive typing as is, where as Water/Steel is more of a defensive typing. Sure, it lets you Shell Smash without relying on a Focus Sash, but you still have to watch out for almost any Mach Punches, which, while not on absolutely every team, are still present in OU. I really don't like this buff, if I'm being honest.
Belly Drum Floatzel
This, on the other hand, is definitely neat. 115 base speed is a bit of a magic number in the current meta, outspeeding the vast amount of 110s in the OU tier, and if it wanted to, could run Aqua Jet could beat out any possible speed ties or faster Pokemon. Baton Passing to a Pokemon who can make use of the Belly Drum, makes many Pokemon hit incredibly hard, obviously, Baton Passing a Belly Drum to a Mega Metagross sounds absolutely terrifying. While obviously not metagame changing, I believe this would definitely be a Pokemon to think about while building a team.
Dragon Dance Glalie
This is something I've thought about before to try to fix Glalie, and for the most part, it's pretty scary, however it can't set up on a lot. I don't have a lot to say about this.
Dark Aura Spiritomb
Interesting, for sure. I always loved how Yveltal could hit hard and take hits well in Ubers, due to Dark Aura boosting the power of it's moves, and 50/108/108 bulk obviously isn't amazing, but it's something. Pain Split is obviously not the best form of recovery, but it's better than nothing. I could definitely see this becoming a niche Pokemon on stall teams that do not want to use MegaSable.