Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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Lol you're acting like the only counters to Volcarona are the Lati twins, and that's not true. Talonflame, Mega Aerodactyl, Zard Y, Dragonite, Chansey, Gyarados, are all decently popular mons that can take a hit or two from Volcarona.
Volcarona is not used to beat those mons thou
if anyone uses volcarona without checks already bulit in for those mons then they're high lol.... unless u wanna be a lord and stay in ona talonflame with volcarona, latias and latios are just the most relevant things that can come in on at however Volcarona will always be checked by heatran without running hp ground, and most of those mons it walls anyway with bug buzz...
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Volcarona is not used to beat those mons thou
if anyone uses volcarona without checks already bulit in for those mons then they're high lol.... unless u wanna be a lord and stay in ona talonflame with volcarona, latias and latios are just the most relevant things that can come in on at however Volcarona will always be checked by heatran without running hp ground, and most of those mons it walls anyway with bug buzz...
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Just wanna pitch in that coba berry+hp rock is a legit option on volc. Not a great one but it can work on specific teams.
 
Just wanna pitch in that coba berry+hp rock is a legit option on volc. Not a great one but it can work on specific teams.
Im not a fan on the set but it def can work on some teams its just preference
whats great about volc is that it can run so many dif things really just depends on the team
 
I briefly wrote about this before, but I wanted to make a more official nomination of Slowking for B.

slowking.gif

B- to B

When equipped with an Assault Vest (King's best set by quite a bit imo), Slowking can check/counter a number of top tier special attackers and even some physical attackers. Max investment in HP is pretty much a must, but the rest of the EVs are extremely versatile. Some defensive investment can be run to better handle the likes of Mega-Meta and Scarftar. Special defensive investment helps with pokemon like Char-Y and M-Gardy. Special attack investment is also an option to let Slowking hit harder with its good STABs and coverage options.

Slowking has a fantastic offensive movepool that pairs well with AV and Regenerator, which alleviates its susceptibility to status and entry hazards somewhat. Scald is a great STAB move with an even better 30% burn chance. Psyshock is Slowking's best psychic STAB in most cases because it can hit CM users like Keldeo. Fire Blast can be used to surprise Ferrothorn who would otherwise wall Slowking. Ice Beam can be used for the 4x weaknesses that are everywhere. Dragon Tail phazes out opponents. Energy Ball hits bulky waters like Starmie, Manaphy, and Rotom-W. Power Gem hits Zard-Y.

Really, I would say that Slowking is able to choose what it checks/counters very effectively because it has so many options at its disposal. Also, the fact that Slowking can counter two S-ranked mons (Keldeo and M-Metagross, though the latter may be a little shaky) and check the other two depending on their set is really helpful (non-Knock Lando-I, and specially based Alt).

Slowking does have some problems with Knock Off being everywhere, but it pairs really well with a lot of prominent fairies, like Clefable and M-Diancie, so this can be dealt with in teambuilding a lot of the time. Slowking's speed is also a problem, but its bulk is really fantastic so it can usually take a few neutral hits or a single powerful super-effective one. In return, it can do some heavy damage with STABs or coverage moves. Ultimately, I would say that Slowking's ability to act as a blanket check to lots of special attackers and M-Meta warrants a rise to B.

252+ SpA Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.7%) -- 22.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 41-49 (10.4 - 12.4%) -- possible 9HKO

252+ SpA Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 118-139 (30 - 35.3%) -- 24.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 105-124 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Slowbro can't do much back to M-Alt though.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 124-147 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 129-152 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 265-312 (67.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 448-528 (140.4 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 142-168 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 152-180 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 188-222 (62.4 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 195-229 (49.6 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 336-396 (129.7 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 211-250 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 202-238 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 172-204 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 264-312 (88.8 - 105%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 85-102 (30.6 - 36.8%) -- 63.9% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 102-121 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 196-232 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 228-270 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Edit: Screwed up Mega-Altaria calcs. Fixed. Thanks Kamikaze Gallade.
 
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I think this was brought up recently, but Jellicent probably should be added to D rank at least. I think it could definitely be worth consideration on some teams right now, being a nice utility check to several top tier mons (keld, most latis, starmie, slowbro, lando-T, azu etc) and probably the most reliable spinblocker in the tier. Wisp/taunt/recover/scald or hex beats a lot of defensive mons 1v1 (kinda obvious but I could give specific examples if needed) and completely shuts down pretty much every common spinner not named SD excadrill. Also isn't -quite- as weak to pursuiters as some other Keldeo counters since it can threaten them with wisp. All in all a pretty useful mon with a unique, defined niche and decent amount of favorable matchups right now.
 
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Nomming Garchomp A ----> A+

Its role as a tank is extremely difficult to deal with for offensive teams, and nows finds itself being the most common set in the metagame. Its speed seemed almost not as valuable as the new 110 megas arrived but tank chomp now switches on many usually willfully seeking that gorgeous chip damage on a plethora of other weak to moderate neutral moves, especially the weaker priority moves such as lopunnies fake out, ect

Even some of the stronger powerhouses struggle to 2hko garchomp successfully, where as a 2hko and a 3hko can determine a rather large chunk of hp in the long run. For example Metagross's stabs fail to 2hko as well with considering the standard spread (252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garchomp: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO .) I actually use 252hp/240def/16 spe because i'm a greedy bastard for bulk, and just like scouting for the scarf tar, but if you find jolly breloom and jolly sharp so noteworthy, then feel free to go standard.That's without mentioning what a reliable rock setter it is, that can phase successfully with d-tail bar the fairy swaps (and thats why we have teammates).

That's without considering its offensive potential, its quite a versatile mon in theory, although in practice i do find its strongest niche performing as a tank. Not sure why I haven't seen this brought up, i find it so relevant and common to where it deserves that promo
 
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Nomming Garchomp A ----> A+

Its role as a tank is extremely difficult to deal with for offensive teams, and nows finds itself being the most common set in the metagame. Its speed seemed almost not as valuable as the new 110 megas arrived but tank chomp now switches on many usually willfully seeking that gorgeous chip damage on a plethora of other weak to moderate neutral moves, especially the weaker priority moves such as lopunnies fake out, ect

Even some of the stronger powerhouses struggle to 2hko garchomp successfully, where as a 2hko and a 3hko can determine a rather large chunk of hp in the long run. For example Metagross's stabs fail to 2hko as well with considering the standard spread (252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garchomp: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO .) I actually use 252hp/240def/16 spe because i'm a greedy bastard for bulk, and just like scouting for the scarf tar, but if you find jolly breloom and jolly sharp so noteworthy, then feel free to go standard.That's without mentioning what a reliable rock setter it is, that can phase successfully with d-tail bar the fairy swaps (and thats why we have teammates).

That's without considering its offensive potential, its quite a versatile mon in theory, although in practice i do find its strongest niche performing as a tank. Not sure why I haven't seen this brought up, i find it so relevant and common to where it deserves that promo

It was brought up a few rankings ago from what I remember reading. (I was still just lurking.) It was around the time that tank set first started to gain popularity after use in tournaments and SPL. If I remember correctly, the ranking team decided that the tank set was Chomp adapting to an unfriendly metagame where some of its former sets had lost some viability. The SD/Lum set was another adaptation too, I believe - in response to M-Sableye. It was really quite a controversial topic though.

Since then, the rocky helmet/rough skin set has soared in usage because it is really good at punishing physical attackers, making Garchomp one of the premiere mons of bulky offense. It's SR/SD/Lum Berry set can be really effective as a hazard setter/attacker as well. It can even run a decent focus sash or choice scarf set. However, I don't think I agree with Garchomp rising at the moment. The tank set is really troubled by special attackers because Garchomp is not nearly as threatening without speed or attack investment. Fairies, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Gengar, Latis, Thundurus, Manaphy, MegaMan, Venusaur, Kyu-B, and Raikou all give it problems. It wishes it could run five moves: EQ for SE coverage and STAB, Dragon Tail for phazing, Fire Blast for Ferro/Scizor/Skarm, Toxic for Hippo/Rotom-W, and the ever important Stealth Rock. The tank set wishes it had reliable recovery like Hippo, who performs a fairly similar role to tankchomp overall. Offensive sets are troubled by Garchomp's 102 base speed, which is not nearly as threatening as it once was with all the base 110+'s. The speed tier loses out to Keldeo too, which is something that really works against Chomp. Offensive sets are sometimes troubled by lack of coverage options, which can leave it walled by some defensive mons.

Overall, I think Garchomp is a really good mon at the moment, but it does have some issues in a metagame where speedier attackers are everywhere and specially based attackers often carry a super effective move - ice, fairy, and dragon all being really common attacking types. Because of this, I don't see it on the level of other A-ranked mons like Clefable, Gliscor, and Zard-X.
 
I briefly wrote about this before, but I wanted to make a more official nomination of Slowking for B.

slowking.gif

B- to B

When equipped with an Assault Vest (King's best set by quite a bit imo), Slowking can check/counter a number of top tier special attackers and even some physical attackers. Max investment in HP is pretty much a must, but the rest of the EVs are extremely versatile. Some defensive investment can be run to better handle the likes of Mega-Meta and Scarftar. Special defensive investment helps with pokemon like Char-Y and M-Gardy. Special attack investment is also an option to let Slowking hit harder with its good STABs and coverage options.

Slowking has a fantastic offensive movepool that pairs well with AV and Regenerator, which alleviates its susceptibility to status and entry hazards somewhat. Scald is a great STAB move with an even better 30% burn chance. Psyshock is Slowking's best psychic STAB in most cases because it can hit CM users like Keldeo. Fire Blast can be used to surprise Ferrothorn who would otherwise wall Slowking. Ice Beam can be used for the 4x weaknesses that are everywhere. Dragon Tail phazes out opponents. Energy Ball hits bulky waters like Starmie, Manaphy, and Rotom-W. Power Gem hits Zard-Y.

Really, I would say that Slowking is able to choose what it checks/counters very effectively because it has so many options at its disposal. Also, the fact that Slowking can counter two S-ranked mons (Keldeo and M-Metagross, though the latter may be a little shaky) and check the other two depending on their set is really helpful (non-Knock Lando-I, and specially based Alt).

Slowking does have some problems with Knock Off being everywhere, but it pairs really well with a lot of prominent fairies, like Clefable and M-Diancie, so this can be dealt with in teambuilding a lot of the time. Slowking's speed is also a problem, but its bulk is really fantastic so it can usually take a few neutral hits or a single powerful super-effective one. In return, it can do some heavy damage with STABs or coverage moves. Ultimately, I would say that Slowking's ability to act as a blanket check to lots of special attackers and M-Meta warrants a rise to B.

252+ SpA Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.7%) -- 22.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 41-49 (10.4 - 12.4%) -- possible 9HKO
Slowbro can't do much back to M-Alt though.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 124-147 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 129-152 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 265-312 (67.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 448-528 (140.4 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 142-168 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 152-180 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 188-222 (62.4 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 195-229 (49.6 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 336-396 (129.7 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 211-250 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 202-238 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 172-204 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 264-312 (88.8 - 105%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 85-102 (30.6 - 36.8%) -- 63.9% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 102-121 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 196-232 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 228-270 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Nitpick: Your Altaria isn't a mega.
 
Should Sceptile-Mega go back to B+? I think it should because it beats Keldeo and hard walls Rotom-W (Especially the Substitute set) and can revenge kill all the dragons in this tier except mega altaria (Yes, I know Mega-Altaria is S rank, but so is Keldeo and Sceptile beats that pretty easily.) It can even beat the steels types without too much trouble (Except things like Bulky Mega-Scizor, etc.) with Focus blast or you can go HP fire to beat those pesky scizors all day. Lightningrod also absorbs t-waves from the disgustingly overused Rotom-W and blocks volt switches better than almost any mon in the OU tier. Sceptile to B+ pls
 
I don't really agree with a Mega Sceptile raise. Sure, Mega Sceptile is hell to offensive teams, but it doesn't have very good damage output. The inability to hold an item really hurts it, as balance and stall can take all of its hits pretty well. It's forced to run Leaf Storm to so any sort of damage to Pokemon such as Clefable, which can really hurt its time on the field. Sceptile really doesn't hit hard at all, hell, it can't even KO full health Ferrothorn with HP Fire / Focus Blast or full health Latias with Dragon Pulse. Not to mention, Sceptile's extremely bad defensive typing leaves it weak to many common priority moves, especially Ice Shard from the growing popularity or Weavile and Talonflame's Brave Bird. Not to mention, Serperior pretty much does everything Sceptile can without taking up a Mega Slot with just a slight decrease in Speed. There are many common threats, such as Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor can put huge pressure on it through out the battle. Since Sceptile can't run dual STABs, Earthquake, Focus Blast and HP Fire all on one set, there are plenty of things that can give it hell. It's not even a reliable Keldeo "counter", as it actually fails to KO a full health Keldeo with Giga Drain about 70% of the time, and Specs Secret Sword / Icy Wind easily KOs back. Sceptile does have a nice niche in not being able to be Thunder Waved, but it honestly isn't as good in practice as it looks on practice and requires massive amount of team support to be effective. Keep Mega Sceptile at B.
 
Scolipede -> B/B+

dont have the time to make a long post, but basically:
  • great HO lead that gets up layers and gets them up fast, including t spikes which are great for wearing down fat teams
  • also has great offensive presence for a lead with megahorn, p jab, and possibly aqua tail / eq
  • endeavor + sash
  • can quickpass a speed boost to a teammate to turn something like kyubes into a gg
  • has a good sd set thats rly hard to stop late game
  • gr8 starting speed tier that outspeeds the all important base 110s
  • talonflame usage has gone waaay down since scoli was first demoted. pinsir is nowhere to be seen
dont believe me? look up xtra$hine's oras ou week 1 day one smogtour replays and youll see what i mean.
 
Scolipede -> B/B+

dont have the time to make a long post, but basically:
  • great HO lead that gets up layers and gets them up fast, including t spikes which are great for wearing down fat teams
  • also has great offensive presence for a lead with megahorn, p jab, and possibly aqua tail / eq
  • can quickpass a speed boost to a teammate to turn something like kyubes into a gg
  • has a good sd set thats rly hard to stop late game
  • gr8 starting speed tier that outspeeds the all important base 110s
  • talonflame usage has gone waaay down since scoli was first demoted. pinsir is nowhere to be seen
dont believe me? look up xtra$hine's oras ou week 1 day one smogtour replays and youll see what i mean.

Seconding. Scoli is great. Don't forget Endeavor!
 
Should Sceptile-Mega go back to B+? I think it should because it beats Keldeo and hard walls Rotom-W (Especially the Substitute set) and can revenge kill all the dragons in this tier except mega altaria (Yes, I know Mega-Altaria is S rank, but so is Keldeo and Sceptile beats that pretty easily.) It can even beat the steels types without too much trouble (Except things like Bulky Mega-Scizor, etc.) with Focus blast or you can go HP fire to beat those pesky scizors all day. Lightningrod also absorbs t-waves from the disgustingly overused Rotom-W and blocks volt switches better than almost any mon in the OU tier. Sceptile to B+ pls
Sceptile may have a decent matchup to some of the OU metagame, but it is also shut out by many as well. Heatran walls it bar Earthquake, and any fast scarfer that carries a Dragon/Ice type move will eliminate it completely. This means that scarfed Latios destroys Sceptile, along with the Ice Shard users Mamoswine and Weavile, both of which OHKO w/LO. Sceptile has poor bulk and mediocre SpA. The only thing that it has is a very good speed tier. Due to this, however, trading it in on almost any Pokemon will be difficult, as even the Water types that it resists so hard may predict this and go for their standard Ice coverage, such as Keldeo using Icy Wind. Multiple Volt Turn users are the only reliable way to bring Sceptile in, and that is far too much team support in addition to the weaknesses that Sceptile has. The team must revolve so closely around Sceptile that it severely limits team building or its effectiveness on more diverse teams. Its niche is very small and it does not hit hard enough to use its speed tier well. Also, when it comes to checks and counters I have not even mentioned its Flying type weakness, which is arguably its most destructive quality. It is completely worthless as long as Talonflame is still in the game, and the SpD set of Skarm still walls Sceptile. Even with HP Fire it will still get a Brave Bird off and chunk a very large portion of its health. I would post calcs but I am on my High School's wifi, which blocks the Calc and Showdown. I may be overstating its frailty because of this, but I am largely sure about what I have stated. This said Sceptile has 4MSS, requiring more moves than it can carry to break all of its counters and checks. This said it is weak 4MSS, because many of these coverage moves still do not OHKO the mons that they are meant to beat. Sceptile is too frail and unreliable to be moved past B in my opinion.
 
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Conkeldurr B -> B-
Not too much to say other than it's lost a lot of popularity and for good reason. It gets worn down quickly and doesn't reliably get a kill / weaken the opposing team enough. A big problem is 4MSS since it wants to run Drain Punch / Knock Off / Ice Punch / Poison Jab / Mach Punch. This makes it pretty easy to take care of once you figure out what it's missing. LO lure sets are still decent but it just isn't on the level of other stuff in B right now. I don't think it's bad and I could see it come back up to B but right now it isn't better than B- IMO.
 
Conkeldurr B -> B-
Not too much to say other than it's lost a lot of popularity and for good reason. It gets worn down quickly and doesn't reliably get a kill / weaken the opposing team enough. A big problem is 4MSS since it wants to run Drain Punch / Knock Off / Ice Punch / Poison Jab / Mach Punch. This makes it pretty easy to take care of once you figure out what it's missing. LO lure sets are still decent but it just isn't on the level of other stuff in B right now. I don't think it's bad and I could see it come back up to B but right now it isn't better than B- IMO.

Even though I don't necessarily disagree with the drop of Conk, I do disagree with your reasoning. If played right, AV combined with Drain punch becomes pretty hard to wear down and it does not have 4MSS. It does not need all of thise moves to function, Conk still works without ice punch or poison jab. With your reasoning every pokemon has 4MSS, because every poke would like a fifth move to hit more opponents.

The main problem with Conkeldurr is that it is beaten 1 on 1 by all s rank pokemon under certain conditions. Furthermore A+ pokes like Talonflame and Sableye don't have to many problems with Conkeldurr. all and all I do agree with dropping Conkeldurr to B-
 
Any mon that resists drain punch can pretty much wear it down since it can't recover. Think Clefable if no Poison Jab, Landorus-T / Gliscor if no Ice Punch, etc. That is why I mention the 4MSS - coverage is more important for this mon than say Mega Lopunny which has all it needs in 2 slots and the other moves are just for utility. Granted it's an issue to some degree I guess for most offensive mons but given that Conk is dependent on Drain Punch for recovery to be a better tank, its coverage moves are super necessary to bop whatever resists it. Maybe my reasoning wasn't perfect but perhaps I cleared up my basic premise here.

I wouldn't really move a mon up or down solely based on matchups with the S ranks as its also important to note metagame trends. The rise of Alakazam and Tornadus-Therian both hurt Conkeldurr as it can't OHKO either (if Sash Zam) and both can 2HKO it. Probably shoulda mentioned stuff like that before as well as an increase in hazard stacking and use of Sandstorm teams which make it much easier to wear down.
 
this is me, but conk isn't even that good a special tank as it can't even switchin to some of the most common ou special attackers. also like bludz said, it has a bit of 4MSS which hinders it

Keldeo:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 187-222 (53.2 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 217-256 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 354-421 (100.8 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Latias:
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 299-354 (85.1 - 100.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Mega Diancie:
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 254-302 (72.3 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Gardevoir:
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 354-416 (100.8 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

there are probably some more shit but im stretched for time so that's all i could add
 
Pretty controversial nomination, but here we go.

manaphy.gif

Nominating Manaphy for A+

Manaphy is a very good pokemon atm. A mono water typing isn't bad defensively, while offensively it isn't too shabby either. 100 / 100 / 100 bulk is also decent. However, the true reason why manaphy is such a monster is because of its access to one of the best boosting moves in the game, tail glow. After one tail glow boost, manaphy's power reaches insane levels and this can be further boosted by a potential rain dance. TG + RD is a very effective set that easily demolishes stall teams alone and can even put in work against balanced teams if given the chance. Manaphy's ability hydration also allows it to run rest very effectively; if manaphy is in rain, rest instantly heals manaphy and it does not even fall asleep thanks to hydration. This allows manaphy to even run a mono attacking set with CM, rest, and rain dance, as it can slowly boost up with calm mind and heal itself with rest. Scald is also great as it allows manaphy to fish for burns against pokemon such as ferrothorn or chansey, weakening them so manaphy can break past them. Another cool thing about manaphy is its coverage. Ice beam can be nice to break past ferrothorn if not running rain dance, psychic allows manaphy to destroy mega venusaur, and energy ball can bop water-types such as rotom-w and slowbro. HP Fire is even an option to lure in ferrothorn and take it out quickly, and it was used by style in OST. Manaphy can easily tailor its coverage to match its teams needs. For example, if you have a metagross you can run energy ball to lure in bulky water types. Another reason why manaphy is so good is because of how well it pairs up with some very common pokemon. Pokemon such as mega metagross and mega gallade really appreciate manaphy's ability to lure in and remove bulky water-types, defeat bulky ground-types such as hippowdon and gliscor, and most importantly, beat mega sableye.

Manaphy can singlehandedly tear down stall teams thanks to its access to tail glow, allowing it to put in tons of work against stall teams and even balanced teams. CM sets are also hard to beat as it is hard to wear down thanks to rest and hydration. Manaphy's coverage is also really good and can easily be changed up to match the needs of the team. Finally, manaphy pairs up very well with some pretty common pokemon, making it a good choice on lots of teams. Manaphy is just a really solid pokemon at the moment due to the fact of how much work it can put in against stall teams making it a great partner for pokemon that have trouble with pokemon such as hippowdon, gliscor, sableye, and the like. For all these reasons, I really think manaphy deserves a rise.
 
I'd like to forward the nomination for Starmie from A to A+ .

I've been using bulky reflect type Starmie lately for the first time and I've been finding it puts in work. It can actually safely switch into threats, reflect type is ridiculously handy, it can spin things away, it has recovery. I have no idea what more you want from an A+ mon. And this is just one set. It's unbelievably versatile. Forgive me for the short, terrible reasoning. It's nearly 4am but I just wanted to get some notes down.

I'd also like to nominate (if I'm able) Raikou to A.

I'll type my justification in the morning as I'll probably do a crap job of it now. But I love me some Raikou.
 
Pretty controversial nomination, but here we go.

manaphy.gif

Nominating Manaphy for A+

Manaphy is a very good pokemon atm. A mono water typing isn't bad defensively, while offensively it isn't too shabby either. 100 / 100 / 100 bulk is also decent. However, the true reason why manaphy is such a monster is because of its access to one of the best boosting moves in the game, tail glow. After one tail glow boost, manaphy's power reaches insane levels and this can be further boosted by a potential rain dance. TG + RD is a very effective set that easily demolishes stall teams alone and can even put in work against balanced teams if given the chance. Manaphy's ability hydration also allows it to run rest very effectively; if manaphy is in rain, rest instantly heals manaphy and it does not even fall asleep thanks to hydration. This allows manaphy to even run a mono attacking set with CM, rest, and rain dance, as it can slowly boost up with calm mind and heal itself with rest. Scald is also great as it allows manaphy to fish for burns against pokemon such as ferrothorn or chansey, weakening them so manaphy can break past them. Another cool thing about manaphy is its coverage. Ice beam can be nice to break past ferrothorn if not running rain dance, psychic allows manaphy to destroy mega venusaur, and energy ball can bop water-types such as rotom-w and slowbro. HP Fire is even an option to lure in ferrothorn and take it out quickly, and it was used by style in OST. Manaphy can easily tailor its coverage to match its teams needs. For example, if you have a metagross you can run energy ball to lure in bulky water types. Another reason why manaphy is so good is because of how well it pairs up with some very common pokemon. Pokemon such as mega metagross and mega gallade really appreciate manaphy's ability to lure in and remove bulky water-types, defeat bulky ground-types such as hippowdon and gliscor, and most importantly, beat mega sableye.

Manaphy can singlehandedly tear down stall teams thanks to its access to tail glow, allowing it to put in tons of work against stall teams and even balanced teams. CM sets are also hard to beat as it is hard to wear down thanks to rest and hydration. Manaphy's coverage is also really good and can easily be changed up to match the needs of the team. Finally, manaphy pairs up very well with some pretty common pokemon, making it a good choice on lots of teams. Manaphy is just a really solid pokemon at the moment due to the fact of how much work it can put in against stall teams making it a great partner for pokemon that have trouble with pokemon such as hippowdon, gliscor, sableye, and the like. For all these reasons, I really think manaphy deserves a rise.

I think this nom has been shot down before but i'll reiterate the reasoning:
While this thing is cool against balanced and stall, it's absolutely crap vs offense and extremely prone to being revenge killed by just about anything.
(btw mmeta 2hko's mega sableye with mash (with sr) but anyways lol) mmeta has both thunderpunch and gknot to help it get past waters anyway, it doesn't need manaphy for that. If anything, manaphy needs mmeta to remove ferro and mvenu for it. Aka it does not singlehandedly defeat stall teams.

Now as you mentioned, it has a few coverage moves to let it deal with multiple different things. I'm going to use the term in the correct context unlike how it has been thrown around quite a bit recently and say that manaphy has 4mss.
It needs psychic to hit mvenu, which is otherwise a solid hard af counter.
Energy ball is needed to hit rotom-w, slowbro, and other waters in general
scald is scald
Ice beam is wanted to hit dragons and grasses.
and hp fire is nice to hit ferro, which none of the other options do.
note that none of these moves go past 90 base power either :< your moves are pretty weak too

Of course, you need to run tail glow alongside all of this, so ultimately there will be SOMETHING that manaphy cannot get past, even when running tail glow + 3 attacks. Of course, one mon to bring down every balanced/stall team would be pretty broken but you can begin to see that manaphy cannot do its job on its own. It's fairly independent, i won't exaggerate its cons, but it ultimately DOES still need some lure support, and ultimately DOES need a free turn to set up tail glow in the first place.

That's another whole dimension imo. You see breakers like mega diancie, mega gardevoir, mega heracross, mega medi, char-y, etc pretty much just clicking a move and watching things perish, all they need is a free switch-in. Mana requires a lot more maintenance in that you need to both get it in safely and get a turn to set up, during which stall users could be laying down the toxic necessary to come out on top in the end, the turn that other mega wallbreakers never really give. That's a huge difference.

One notable pro of the little prince is that its a wallbreaker of such quality but doesn't take up a mega slot, which is amazing for teambuilding flexibility; it lets you pick your mega to build around or to handle offense instead of using one to break stall/balance.

mana has its good points but its ultimately too weak vs offense, too easily revenged, and has zero immediate power. It should stay A.
 
this is me, but conk isn't even that good a special tank as it can't even switchin to some of the most common ou special attackers. also like bludz said, it has a bit of 4MSS which hinders it

Keldeo:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 187-222 (53.2 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 217-256 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 354-421 (100.8 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Latias:
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 299-354 (85.1 - 100.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Mega Diancie:
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 254-302 (72.3 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Gardevoir:
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 354-416 (100.8 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

there are probably some more shit but im stretched for time so that's all i could add

Psyshock hits on the physical side, why would you calc that? You also calculated Mega Gardevoir Hyper voice, there's not a single pokemon who lives Pixilated Hyper voices super effectively from Gardevoir. Calc something that's worth calcing.
 
I'll have to disagree with Conk dropping. He might be a bit out of fashion atm but from personal experience i can say that he is just as effective as ever. He is a pain for offensive teams to deal with because there are so few mons that can ohko him while he can severely hurt or even ohko anything on offense. He checks/beats Keldeo, Lando-I (even psychic does 70% max, EP might even miss the 2hko), Bisharp, Gengar, Diancie, Lando-T, Lopunny, Thundy, Excadrill, Garchomp, Mega Gyarados, Rotom-w, Ttar, Mega Manetric, Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Raikou etc and thats just the S to A ranks. He isnt too good against fat teams but even there he has some use as he beats common fatties like Heatran, Ferro, Gliscor and Celebi.

He also doesnt have 4MSS as stab, Poison Jab, Ice Punch hits everything he needs to hit. Knock off provides nice utility but its not needed for anything. If your team has specific needs things like Stone Edge, Thunderpunch or EQ can be run but most of the time they arent needed. The fact that his biggest Nightmare aka Pinsir sees little to no usage atm also helps alot, same for Megavenu who is among the few things that Conk can't touch at all. Talonflame is fairly common but thats easily dealt with by teammates/SR. Yes he gets worn down but if used correctly he will take at least one mon down against offense before he fallls himself. He also needs little to no support and deters status users from spamming their status moves helping the team that way. If you are looking for a blanket check to many common offensive threats that has a decent offensive presence itself Conk is a realy good option.
 
Jernmax I obviously know that Psyshock and Secret Sword hit on the physical side, but the point is, conk can't even do the role of special tank well if it can't switchin to the dominant special attackers in the tier. There's really not much use to it if it can't do its role well because it can't even switchin to these things.

this is why i support the drop to b-
 
Jernmax I obviously know that Psyshock and Secret Sword hit on the physical side, but the point is, conk can't even do the role of special tank well if it can't switchin to the dominant special attackers in the tier. There's really not much use to it if it can't do its role well because it can't even switchin to these things.

this is why i support the drop to b-
Conk wouldn't switch into any of those anyways so that's a moot point at best. I'm neutral on Conk but at the very least make accurate arguments. Strong Special attackers like Thundy, Raikou, Mega Mane, and Manaphy are beaten by Conk 1v1 so saying that he can't beat the dominant special attackers in the tier is false anyways because the ones I listed are everywhere (bar mane but w/e).
 
I don't completely agree with you Srn

The tgrd set is really really a huge pain for stall to face. You say that other wallbreaker such Mhera and Mzard y just need 1 free turn and fire off a powerful attack and watch something die, and this is most of the time true, but it's the same way easy for manaphy to get in against stall and set up. It cannot be taken down by status thanks to hydratation and rain dance and his bulk is enough against stall to set up cm and rain dance and start killing stuff. It also has the ability to beat the two unaware mons we usually find on stall because Quagsire is easily weared down and in rain Clefable can't win because scald burn and enough damage of scald in rain. The real thing is that it can be phazed thanks to whirlwind/roar and mons such as amoonguss easily click clear smog and stop the sweep. Amoonguss anyway isn't that common and the ability of manaphy to beat stall is very notable

Tg + 3attacks is a pain for balance to deal with and it can easily dismantle balance build with low team support. Yes it wishes it could have tg, scald, hp fire, energy ball and ice beam in just 1 set but if it lacks ice beam of hp fire is not a big issue because here the other team members come to play.

Sorry for some english mistakes and have a good day! :]
 
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