Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

[Jack Dalton]

You're right in that Hyper Offense teams don't care whether they're at 100% hp or 4% hp, but here's the thing. Banded GW users like Lando-T and Mence have priority that can take almost any mon found on hyper offense straight from 100% hp to 0% hp before they can do anything about it. Suddenly you care, because a majority of your team is invalidated if that Lando/Mence gets in and anything that does survive a hit will not appreciate taking another. If you want to get your Lando check in, you basically have to sac a Pokemon or carry a dedicated counter to it like Unaware Rhyperior. That's a team slot you are dedicating to beating something so overcentralizing and strong that it 6-0's your team and demands a counter, and you're forced to give up running another offensive threat in that slot.

Pinsir and Altaria do similar things, but only if they're given the chance to set up a Swords Dance. They don't have as much immediate power and you can pressure them to where they don't get a chance to set up. There are mons on Hyper Offense teams that can still check these threats by taking an unboosted E-speed and then KO'ing.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 348-411 (107.7 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gale Wings gives you far less options to offensively check the users of it because the priority is so much stronger.

 

[Ghoul King]

Gale Wings gives you a lot more options to offensively check the users because you can respond with priority other than Fake Out and Extreme Speed, not to mention responding with Extreme Speed yourself more consistently. If Mega Pinsir gets off a Swords Dance or a Dragon Dance -and it's really easy for it to find an opportunity to do so- then you are basically dead if you don't have Fake Out, a Focus Sash, Sturdy, or a faster Extreme Speeder (Which is essentially impossible if it used Dragon Dance) to respond with, and potentially even if you have one or more of these things. And, again, Brave Bird is killing the user -if it eats a team member outright it's weakened and more susceptible to revenge killing, and since we're talked Banded here it cannot Roost off the damage. Extreme Speed Mega Pinsir has no such concern, and can sweep right through everything without ever fainting or switching to avoid fainting or, when talking non-Banded Gale Wings, Roosting to heal off recoil to continue the sweep, giving the enemy a turn free.

And, again, Gale Wings comes with a single moveset that has consistent limitations. Extreme Speed is found on multiple donors whom collectively have a ridiculous array of things they can do, and in fact individual movepools can be absolutely ludicrous. Flashfire Doublade is a hard stop to all Gale Wings Pokemon, the end, but Rayquaza provides Earthquake, Lucario provides Earthquake and Crunch, Dragonite provides Earthquake, Deoxys and Raichu both provide Knock Off, etc. There's no reliable, universal hard stops to Extreme Speed Mega Pinsir like there are for Gale Wings.

And Hyper Offense tends to have to sacrifice Pokemon for strategic advantage against any non-Stall team anyway. That a threat can drive a Hyper Offense team into sacrificial plays is not a meaningful commentary on the threat -pretty much any offensive threat can do that.

And here's a question: how did you get Terrakion in front of unboosted Mega Pinsir? If you switched in on Extreme Speed, it kills you next turn. If you switched in on Swords Dance (Or Dragon Dance is also 100% reliable if it's running Adamant, which it probably is if it's Dragon Dance), it kills you next turn. If you revenge-switched in, well obviously it's already killed something, and can switch out and wait for its next opportunity to get in and setup or kill something. How does Terrakion act as a real check to it, even if I generously assume you didn't switch in on Close Combat or Earthquake?

 

[xJownage]

Okay, no.

Gale Wings is not even close to the most broken thing in this tier, and tbh I think the metagame NEEDS it. This would be like banning fakespeed and talonflame in stabmons.

Suspecting mega alt, mega pinsir, and mega glalie, FIRST, is needed right now before we can verdict gale wings. There must be limitations on offense by virtue of priority or we will find ourselves with a strictly HO metagame. Its just the nature of inheritance. Fuck, I spam high powered attacks on my hyper offensive teams now and beat stall teams, and this is while I'm specifically teambuilding to handle offensive priority that is limiting to begin with. I'm overpowering stall and balanced teams with 4 mons on my team with priority. And only 1 of my mons is possibly broken for that, being gale wings.

If we ban gale wings and ban all 3 primary -ate megas (which needs to happen; all of them are much worse than gale wings for offense), what will be stopping SS and BD spam? I mean fuck, nobody has talked about using Belly/mach punch Terrakion from magmortar because gale wings/ate megas basically invalidate its niche. Ursa maybe can stop things, but what happens when people spam SS megagross? People won't want to let it set up anymore. They'll run more offensive teams. Once a meta becomes offensive, HO becomes a dominant playstyle to overpower bulky offensive teams.

Not only this, but Gale Wings isn't broken. It is easily countered on stall teams and easily checked on offense. Let me list you the ways for HO to handle landorus-t, just off the top of my head: Weavile, Excadrill, Heatran, Thundurus, Salamence, Manectric, Raikou, Zapdos, Diancie, Glalie-mega, Altaria-Mega, Ditto (really is viable atm), Metagross, Megagross, Tyranitar.....

For stall/balance counters: Tyranitar, Diancie, FF Aegislash, FF Doublade, Suicune, Rhypherior........

The list of viable mons able to check it for offense, and counter it for stall/balance, is literally ridiculous. Its up to people to use them. In no way is this unhealthy or overcentralizing, its not that hard to check/counter in this metagame and if you can't beat it you aren't teambuilding well. Each team I make -- and god knows how many I've made (Over 400) -- has at least 2 checks to GW if I am running HO, and that's without trying.

Gale wings, for starters, isn't broken. Second, we need to suspect the more broken things first before we ban all of them and turn inheritance into metagamiate on steroids.

 

[Lcass4919]

Okay, no.

Gale Wings is not even close to the most broken thing in this tier, and tbh I think the metagame NEEDS it. This would be like banning fakespeed and talonflame in stabmons.

Suspecting mega alt, mega pinsir, and mega glalie, FIRST, is needed right now before we can verdict gale wings. There must be limitations on offense by virtue of priority or we will find ourselves with a strictly HO metagame. Its just the nature of inheritance. Fuck, I spam high powered attacks on my hyper offensive teams now and beat stall teams, and this is while I'm specifically teambuilding to handle offensive priority that is limiting to begin with. I'm overpowering stall and balanced teams with 4 mons on my team with priority. And only 1 of my mons is possibly broken for that, being gale wings.

If we ban gale wings and ban all 3 primary -ate megas (which needs to happen; all of them are much worse than gale wings for offense), what will be stopping SS and BD spam? I mean fuck, nobody has talked about using Belly/mach punch Terrakion from magmortar because gale wings/ate megas basically invalidate its niche. Ursa maybe can stop things, but what happens when people spam SS megagross? People won't want to let it set up anymore. They'll run more offensive teams. Once a meta becomes offensive, HO becomes a dominant playstyle to overpower bulky offensive teams.

Not only this, but Gale Wings isn't broken. It is easily countered on stall teams and easily checked on offense. Let me list you the ways for HO to handle landorus-t, just off the top of my head: Weavile, Excadrill, Heatran, Thundurus, Salamence, Manectric, Raikou, Zapdos, Diancie, Glalie-mega, Altaria-Mega, Ditto (really is viable atm), Metagross, Megagross, Tyranitar.....

For stall/balance counters: Tyranitar, Diancie, FF Aegislash, FF Doublade, Suicune, Rhypherior........

The list of viable mons able to check it for offense, and counter it for stall/balance, is literally ridiculous. Its up to people to use them. In no way is this unhealthy or overcentralizing, its not that hard to check/counter in this metagame and if you can't beat it you aren't teambuilding well. Each team I make -- and god knows how many I've made (Over 400) -- has at least 2 checks to GW if I am running HO, and that's without trying.

Gale wings, for starters, isn't broken. Second, we need to suspect the more broken things first before we ban all of them and turn inheritance into metagamiate on steroids.

one could teambuild around mega gengar pretty easily by packing 5 shed shells...and people can gear their team with kyurem white in mind to be able to beat it by running chansey...whats your point? since when was "having counters and checks that are used" suddenly a deciding factor for determining what is or is not banworthy? do you not know what centralization is(rhetorical question, i know you know, and im not calling you an idiot lmao, i'm just saying)? also...can i ask why you are listing a gale wings user(salamence) as a gale wings user check? what will stop setup spam? the unaware users possibly...or for offense...offensive pressure? okay you got a point with "Ursa maybe can stop things, but what happens when people spam SS megagross?" but its not like theres anything right NOW that can beat it via priority so i don't get your point...ursa IS the strongest priority user after all...and obviously we are having no issues with it atm so...

otherwise yeah, i do agree certain things are more problematic in the tier. but seriously, lets not pretend like gale wings doesn't centralize itself unhealthily even IF pinsir/altaria/glalie outshadow it. look at the meta, half your team is FORCED to be steel/rock type. and anything that isnt, gets 2hkoed by it. it requires you to sacrifice a pokemon... i mean..okay, you have lots of checks..still wont stop it from breaking through half your team, enless your entire team is geared around stopping it. obviously the espeeders suffer from a similar case, and i agree with ghoul they should've been suspected first. but nobody in the council seemed to agree with me. so...

And here's a question: how did you get Terrakion in front of unboosted Mega Pinsir? If you switched in on Extreme Speed, it kills you next turn. If you switched in on Swords Dance (Or Dragon Dance is also 100% reliable if it's running Adamant, which it probably is if it's Dragon Dance), it kills you next turn. If you revenge-switched in, well obviously it's already killed something, and can switch out and wait for its next opportunity to get in and setup or kill something. How does Terrakion act as a real check to it, even if I generously assume you didn't switch in on Close Combat or Earthquake?

just a quick nitpick, he clearly said "check" for terraks case. and in order for A to check B it has a safe switchin in assumption.

 

[Throbulator36]

one could teambuild around mega gengar pretty easily by packing 5 shed shells...and people can gear their team with kyurem white in mind to be able to beat it by running chansey...whats your point? since when was "having counters and checks that are used" suddenly a deciding factor for determining what is or is not banworthy? do you not know what centralization is(rhetorical question, i know you know, and im not calling you an idiot lmao, i'm just saying)? also...can i ask why you are listing a gale wings user(salamence) as a gale wings user check? what will stop setup spam? the unaware users possibly...or for offense...offensive pressure? okay you got a point with "Ursa maybe can stop things, but what happens when people spam SS megagross?" but its not like theres anything right NOW that can beat it via priority so i don't get your point...ursa IS the strongest priority user after all...and obviously we are having no issues with it atm so...

otherwise yeah, i do agree certain things are more problematic in the tier. but seriously, lets not pretend like gale wings doesn't centralize itself unhealthily even IF pinsir/altaria/glalie outshadow it. look at the meta, half your team is FORCED to be steel/rock type. and anything that isnt, gets 2hkoed by it. it requires you to sacrifice a pokemon... i mean..okay, you have lots of checks..still wont stop it from breaking through half your team, enless your entire team is geared around stopping it. obviously the espeeders suffer from a similar case, and i agree with ghoul they should've been suspected first. but nobody in the council seemed to agree with me. so...


just a quick nitpick, he clearly said "check" for terraks case. and in order for A to check B it has a safe switchin in assumption.

but the only ways for it to have that is if they switchin at the same time or pinsir is immobilized which means it isn't a check that you should be using.

 

[Funbot28]

Who is with me to make this a permanent ladder!

 

[I like donkeys]

Who is with me to make this a permanent ladder!

Pretty sure this is a decision to be left up to the council members or even just The Immortal, but otherwise i am in favour of Inheritance becoming a permaladder.

 

[xJownage]

one could teambuild around mega gengar pretty easily by packing 5 shed shells...and people can gear their team with kyurem white in mind to be able to beat it by running chansey...whats your point? since when was "having counters and checks that are used" suddenly a deciding factor for determining what is or is not banworthy? do you not know what centralization is(rhetorical question, i know you know, and im not calling you an idiot lmao, i'm just saying)? also...can i ask why you are listing a gale wings user(salamence) as a gale wings user check? what will stop setup spam? the unaware users possibly...or for offense...offensive pressure? okay you got a point with "Ursa maybe can stop things, but what happens when people spam SS megagross?" but its not like theres anything right NOW that can beat it via priority so i don't get your point...ursa IS the strongest priority user after all...and obviously we are having no issues with it atm so...

otherwise yeah, i do agree certain things are more problematic in the tier. but seriously, lets not pretend like gale wings doesn't centralize itself unhealthily even IF pinsir/altaria/glalie outshadow it. look at the meta, half your team is FORCED to be steel/rock type. and anything that isnt, gets 2hkoed by it. it requires you to sacrifice a pokemon... i mean..okay, you have lots of checks..still wont stop it from breaking through half your team, enless your entire team is geared around stopping it. obviously the espeeders suffer from a similar case, and i agree with ghoul they should've been suspected first. but nobody in the council seemed to agree with me. so...


just a quick nitpick, he clearly said "check" for terraks case. and in order for A to check B it has a safe switchin in assumption.

If shed shell was already used on 5/6 teams in ubers, it wouldn't have been a problem. The mons I listed CERTAINLY aren't uncommon or unviable, and they are easy to fit on teams. They actually fit on teams to begin with.
For salamence, I said "checks for gale wings lant", i.e. just landorus-t.

SS meta was an obscure example off the top of my head, just like the list of checks and counters. Many mons stopped by gale wings aren't by -atespeed and vice-versa, but taking away both prevents us from revenging ANYTHING consistently without chip damage or a major weakness. The limits on HO atm are what makes balance viable, the problem is its unhealthy. Banning one and not the other would prevent some restriction, but keep enough that balance remains viable. If we ban both, we will have a lot of fun banning half of the offensive tier (maybe an exaggeration but still). I know this is a slippery slope, but I'm stating facts; this is way worse than diggersby in stabmons. This is the equivalent of banning extremespeed in stabmons. This could be baaad.

But no, while gale wings centralizes the meta, it does not OVERcentralize it to the point of unhealthiness. We aren't required to make offense with 80% of the mons being gale wings proof; I and several others have been doing this for months well before OMOTM (when Lant was even more cancer). Sure, it might get a free kill, but it will get forced out, which surrenders huge momentum. I play a lot of HO. Look at the sample team I posted a few pages back. I have never had a big time problem with gale wings using that team (55-14), and its really efficient. I was hardly teambuilding with only lant in mind, yet the team has no issues with most gale wings.

having "checks and counters that are used" is relevant when there are...like...20 of them. If kyu-w in OU forced everybody to run chansey, sure.

Overcentralization due to checking/countering a mon is when it forces excessive redundancy in teambuilding, i.e. running the same mons on every team. But thats not a problem with gale wings. The abundance of checks/counters means the metagame retains both diversity and limiting factors.

I'm saying right now that when the -ate megas get suspected, they WILL be banned. If Gale wings is already banned as well, this meta will be in trouble. Additionally, gale wings isn't broken.

 

[Ghoul King]

otherwise yeah, i do agree certain things are more problematic in the tier. but seriously, lets not pretend like gale wings doesn't centralize itself unhealthily even IF pinsir/altaria/glalie outshadow it. look at the meta, half your team is FORCED to be steel/rock type. and anything that isnt, gets 2hkoed by it. it requires you to sacrifice a pokemon... i mean..okay, you have lots of checks..still wont stop it from breaking through half your team, enless your entire team is geared around stopping it. obviously the espeeders suffer from a similar case, and i agree with ghoul they should've been suspected first. but nobody in the council seemed to agree with me. so...

I have never had more than one check or counter to Gale Wings on any team. I have never had more than two Rock and/or Steel types on any team. My Protean Spam team had one weak check to Gale Wings in the form of Raikou, and pushed right through teams carrying two Gale Wings Pokemon.

I have never seen Gale Wings as being any kind of problem, and with it being impossible to stack them the one thing I could see being an issue -sacrificing one to weaken a counter and then bringing in the other and sweeping- is gone, so I don't see how it's overcentralizing or even particularly amazing. It's an excellent revenge-killer, and Landorus-Therian's power just expands its utility a bit beyond that.

just a quick nitpick, he clearly said "check" for terraks case. and in order for A to check B it has a safe switchin in assumption.

To expand on what Throbulator already said: how do you get that safe switch-in? The only ways for Terrakion to come in safely on Mega Pinsir are to revenge-switch with Mega Pinsir having not setup before landing its KO, or to switch in at the same time as Mega Pinsir. If you switch in on any move it makes at all, you die having accomplished nothing.

 

[Lcass4919]

but the only ways for it to have that is if they switchin at the same time or pinsir is immobilized which means it isn't a check that you should be using.

To expand on what Throbulator already said: how do you get that safe switch-in? The only ways for Terrakion to come in safely on Mega Pinsir are to revenge-switch with Mega Pinsir having not setup before landing its KO, or to switch in at the same time as Mega Pinsir. If you switch in on any move it makes at all, you die having accomplished nothing.

pivoting, forcing pinsir to attack directly, and whatnot. it doesnt matter if it can potentially set up, or w.e. a check requires you to have to have a safe switchin to it, this is how smogon DEFINES A CHECK. theres no discussion around it.

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

take note of the definition of a check: "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

(and no, swords dance is NOT considered a "free switch" since with priority, it handles its checks differently pinsir has less checks then say, non espeed pinsir due to such.)

and just so i make this point clear:
free: not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded
switch: An exchange or a swap

so a free switch means a swap that does not restrain the user at ALL in the slightest. a scenario of which you get in freely without ANY REPERCUSSIONS BEING FACTORED IN THAT WOULD RESTRAIN THEM. a +2 espeed next turn upon being sent in is obviously NOT a free switch in terms of this definition. and dont even argue "worst case scenario" implications with me, because thats NOT what they meant by it. otherwise talonflame isnt checked by ttar because +6 brave bird(worst case scenario) will do it in. it simply means, all four of its moves, on a SAFE SWITCHIN, wont cause said pokemon to faint. espeed doesnt ohko, and it outspeeds so the other moves will do it in. without hax being affected in ANY way. (stone edge missing for example).

this isnt some "opinionated" thing, this is how smogon accepts checking and countering in terms of a definition. and clearly, OMs still follow this philosophy.

im sorry for the bold and harsh tones, but do i really need to explain this in so much detail? i figured my first post would've prevented me from doing all this by saying safe switchin. but nope.

otherwise yeah, i feel like we should retract suspecting gale wings, and pick on pinsir, altaria, and glalie first...or at least add them into this suspect or something.

 

[Ghoul King]

pivoting, forcing pinsir to attack directly, and whatnot. it doesnt matter if it can potentially set up, or w.e. a check requires you to have to have a safe switchin to it, this is how smogon DEFINES A CHECK. theres no discussion around it.

http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

take note of the definition of a check: "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

(and no, swords dance is NOT considered a "free switch" since with priority, it handles its checks differently pinsir has less checks then say, non espeed pinsir due to such.)

and just so i make this point clear:
free: not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded
switch: An exchange or a swap

so a free switch means a swap that does not restrain the user at ALL in the slightest. a scenario of which you get in freely without ANY REPERCUSSIONS BEING FACTORED IN THAT WOULD RESTRAIN THEM. a +2 espeed next turn upon being sent in is obviously NOT a free switch in terms of this definition. and dont even argue "worst case scenario" implications with me, because thats NOT what they meant by it. otherwise talonflame isnt checked by ttar because +6 brave bird(worst case scenario) will do it in. it simply means, all four of its moves, on a SAFE SWITCHIN, wont cause said pokemon to faint. espeed doesnt ohko, and it outspeeds so the other moves will do it in. without hax being affected in ANY way. (stone edge missing for example).

this isnt some "opinionated" thing, this is how smogon accepts checking and countering in terms of a definition. and clearly, OMs still follow this philosophy.

im sorry for the bold and harsh tones, but do i really need to explain this in so much detail? i figured my first post would've prevented me from doing all this by saying safe switchin. but nope.

One more time: how does it get the free switch-in that allows it to be a check? It's all well and good to say it is a check if you assume a safe switch-in, but most checks are capable of assuming it's possible to get that safe switch-in.

You're essentially arguing semantics and ignoring the point here that describing Terrakion as a "check" to Extreme Speed Mega Pinsir is a non-functional statement because it requires completely unrealistic scenarios to accomplish anything.

Sure, +6 Talonflame can smash right through Tyranitar (A lie: see below), but unless you're playing STABmons it doesn't get Belly Drum and the point is thus moot because a player will switch in Tyranitar well before that point -Talonflame can't force a scenario of having three completely free turns to Swords Dance in. Terrakion "checking" Mega Pinsir is at the opposite end of this concept -it only qualifies as a check if you play word games and ignore the reality that the scenario in which it checks Mega Pinsir is extremely difficult to arrange.

(Oh by the way: +6 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 263-310 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. So even in the completely unrealistic scenario you brought up, Tyranitar can still check Talonflame!)

Again: normally when people talk about checks and counters, there's an assumption that arranging the free switch is very possible. With Mega Pinsir, if it's at any point in front of a Pokemon that can't OHKO it right there, your checks aren't really checks anymore unless they have Unaware. The only thing I can think of as equivalent to this is trappers ("You had a non-check out on the field for one whole turn, so you're screwed"), and we've banned everything but Magnet Pull for a reason.

 

[Lcass4919]

One more time: how does it get the free switch-in that allows it to be a check? It's all well and good to say it is a check if you assume a safe switch-in, but most checks are capable of assuming it's possible to get that safe switch-in.

You're essentially arguing semantics and ignoring the point here that describing Terrakion as a "check" to Extreme Speed Mega Pinsir is a non-functional statement because it requires completely unrealistic scenarios to accomplish anything.

Sure, +6 Talonflame can smash right through Tyranitar (A lie: see below), but unless you're playing STABmons it doesn't get Belly Drum and the point is thus moot because a player will switch in Tyranitar well before that point -Talonflame can't force a scenario of having three completely free turns to Swords Dance in. Terrakion "checking" Mega Pinsir is at the opposite end of this concept -it only qualifies as a check if you play word games and ignore the reality that the scenario in which it checks Mega Pinsir is extremely difficult to arrange.

(Oh by the way: +6 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 263-310 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. So even in the completely unrealistic scenario you brought up, Tyranitar can still check Talonflame!)

Again: normally when people talk about checks and counters, there's an assumption that arranging the free switch is very possible. With Mega Pinsir, if it's at any point in front of a Pokemon that can't OHKO it right there, your checks aren't really checks anymore unless they have Unaware. The only thing I can think of as equivalent to this is trappers ("You had a non-check out on the field for one whole turn, so you're screwed"), and we've banned everything but Magnet Pull for a reason.

okay...no...are you not even reading. fine. let me AGAIN, point to something in the article that solves this question:

If a Pokémon gets a "free switch" in, that means it gets to enter the field without the opponent being able to immediately make a move on it. For example, a common way that you get a free switch is after one of your Pokémon faints; your next Pokémon is allowed to enter the field without immediately being attacked. If one of your Pokémon is "manually switched" in, then your Pokémon allows the opponent to make a move without your Pokémon being able to respond in that turn. Your opponent's move doesn't have to be damaging. If your opponent uses Swords Dance as you manually switch in, your opponent still has an advantage as opposed to if you had gotten a free switch. A manual switch is exactly what it sounds like; the most common way is literally switching out during your turn instead of attacking. There is one subtlety. For example, a Ground-type switching into an Electric-type move will not be affected at all, so this counts as a free switch because the Ground-type incurred no punishment upon switching in.

see, im not ignoring semantics, YOU are ignoring what the definition of a check is.

like seriously.

(also yeah. ttar was a bad example on my part...except i was reffering to plain ttar and not mega(scarftar for example). but i think it still tanks one.

 

[Jack Dalton]

What is this argument even about? Ghoul King offensive pressure is how Terrakion gets in safely. Pokemon A is about to go on a rampage and needs to be dealt with. The opponent send in Pinsir to revenge kill. If Pinsir does not click "Mega Evolution" and then "Extreme Speed" there is a high chance he will lose Pinsir and then the game. Pinsir does just that and kills your mon, and you send in Terrakion. Terrakion is not OHKO'd by an unboosted Extreme Speed, but any Rock-type move thrown at Pinsir will obliterate it. Terrakion now forces a switch and has kept Pinsir in check.

If it was Landorus, Mence, or generally any viable Gale Wings abuser, both Pokemon A and Terrakion are killed before they can do anything and checking the GW user is much harder because of just how much more damage it does. Does this help you understand how a theoretical Terrakion theoretically gets in vs a Mega Pinsir? This situation actually comes up a lot, I don't know why it took 2 pages of arguing to get this point across.

The whole "if it's band it can't roost so it will just die" argument doesn't work when it dies after killing half of your team. It nearly always nabs a free kill vs offense when it comes in, and when it doesn't nab that free kill it comes in later to do it after your answer is worn down.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Okay, no.

Gale Wings is not even close to the most broken thing in this tier, and tbh I think the metagame NEEDS it. This would be like banning fakespeed and talonflame in stabmons.

Suspecting mega alt, mega pinsir, and mega glalie, FIRST, is needed right now before we can verdict gale wings. There must be limitations on offense by virtue of priority or we will find ourselves with a strictly HO metagame. Its just the nature of inheritance. Fuck, I spam high powered attacks on my hyper offensive teams now and beat stall teams, and this is while I'm specifically teambuilding to handle offensive priority that is limiting to begin with. I'm overpowering stall and balanced teams with 4 mons on my team with priority. And only 1 of my mons is possibly broken for that, being gale wings.

If we ban gale wings and ban all 3 primary -ate megas (which needs to happen; all of them are much worse than gale wings for offense), what will be stopping SS and BD spam? I mean fuck, nobody has talked about using Belly/mach punch Terrakion from magmortar because gale wings/ate megas basically invalidate its niche. Ursa maybe can stop things, but what happens when people spam SS megagross? People won't want to let it set up anymore. They'll run more offensive teams. Once a meta becomes offensive, HO becomes a dominant playstyle to overpower bulky offensive teams.

Not only this, but Gale Wings isn't broken. It is easily countered on stall teams and easily checked on offense. Let me list you the ways for HO to handle landorus-t, just off the top of my head: Weavile, Excadrill, Heatran, Thundurus, Salamence, Manectric, Raikou, Zapdos, Diancie, Glalie-mega, Altaria-Mega, Ditto (really is viable atm), Metagross, Megagross, Tyranitar.....

For stall/balance counters: Tyranitar, Diancie, FF Aegislash, FF Doublade, Suicune, Rhypherior........

The list of viable mons able to check it for offense, and counter it for stall/balance, is literally ridiculous. Its up to people to use them. In no way is this unhealthy or overcentralizing, its not that hard to check/counter in this metagame and if you can't beat it you aren't teambuilding well. Each team I make -- and god knows how many I've made (Over 400) -- has at least 2 checks to GW if I am running HO, and that's without trying.

Gale wings, for starters, isn't broken. Second, we need to suspect the more broken things first before we ban all of them and turn inheritance into metagamiate on steroids.

Several of these "checks" you listed aren't actually checks. Calc first, claim second.

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 233-274 (77.9 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adaptability Excadrill Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 52 Def Landorus-T: 186-220 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 700-824 (193.9 - 228.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Extreme Speed vs. 200 HP / 52 Def Landorus-T: 171-202 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 322-381 (104.8 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 184-218 (45.6 - 54%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(basically cripples ttar, grabs momentum, and moves to something that beats ttar)

4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 192-228 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 372-438 (102.1 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Please do not post without doing actual research to back up your claims first. Sure some of these pokemon can check Lando with ideal conditions, but add a Choice Band and and Rocks and everything goes to hell.

 

[Ghoul King]

(also yeah. ttar was a bad example on my part...except i was reffering to plain ttar and not mega(scarftar for example). but i think it still tanks one.

If Talonflame is not Adamant, it's a 50% chance of a OHKO, but if it's Adamant it's a for-sure OHKO. So basically it depends on luck and whether we're assuming Adamant or Jolly Talonflame. I'd guess a Scarfed example would be Jolly, so luck at that point.

okay...no...are you not even reading. fine. let me AGAIN, point to something in the article that solves this question:

If a Pokémon gets a "free switch" in, that means it gets to enter the field without the opponent being able to immediately make a move on it. For example, a common way that you get a free switch is after one of your Pokémon faints; your next Pokémon is allowed to enter the field without immediately being attacked. If one of your Pokémon is "manually switched" in, then your Pokémon allows the opponent to make a move without your Pokémon being able to respond in that turn. Your opponent's move doesn't have to be damaging. If your opponent uses Swords Dance as you manually switch in, your opponent still has an advantage as opposed to if you had gotten a free switch. A manual switch is exactly what it sounds like; the most common way is literally switching out during your turn instead of attacking. There is one subtlety. For example, a Ground-type switching into an Electric-type move will not be affected at all, so this counts as a free switch because the Ground-type incurred no punishment upon switching in.

see, im not ignoring semantics, YOU are ignoring what the definition of a check is.

like seriously.

OK lemme rephrase my point here: the definition of a check hinges on the idea that it is realistically possible to get this free switch-in sufficiently reliably within an actual match that the final statement is meaningfully accurate. This is implicit rather than explicit to the definition of a check, as contrasted with the explicitly stated assumption that you did, in fact, get the free switch-in. If you take the implicit assumption as a given, then yes, Terrakion is a check.

My own claim is that this implicit assumption is baseless when it comes to Terrakion checking Mega Pinsir, and thus invalidates everything premised on it. It's sort of irrelevant to say "if Terrakion gets a free switch-in" when the possibility of a free switch-in is not a given, and meaningless to claim Terrakion is a check in an unrealistic or (Depending on what high-level play actually looks like) possibly impossible scenario. Like, nobody claims Trace can potentially provide Wonder Guard and thus any Tracer is a check or counter to other Pokemon on this basis -if it crops up in a match, cool, take advantage, but it's not realistic to premise "Wonder Guard through Trace as a check to blah" unless you're specifically talking about the Tracer acting as a check to Shedinja itself.

And repeating what the definition of a check is won't refute this claim because my entire point is that there's an implicit assumption that I think does not apply here, and the entire definition comes apart when you remove the implicit assumption.

What is this argument even about? Ghoul King offensive pressure is how Terrakion gets in safely. Pokemon A is about to go on a rampage and needs to be dealt with. The opponent send in Pinsir to revenge kill. If Pinsir does not click "Mega Evolution" and then "Extreme Speed" there is a high chance he will lose Pinsir and then the game. Pinsir does just that and kills your mon, and you send in Terrakion. Terrakion is not OHKO'd by an unboosted Extreme Speed, but any Rock-type move thrown at Pinsir will obliterate it. Terrakion now forces a switch and has kept Pinsir in check.

If it was Landorus, Mence, or generally any viable Gale Wings abuser, both Pokemon A and Terrakion are killed before they can do anything and checking the GW user is much harder because of just how much more damage it does. Does this help you understand how a theoretical Terrakion theoretically gets in vs a Mega Pinsir? This situation actually comes up a lot, I don't know why it took 2 pages of arguing to get this point across.

I'm not quite following the logic here. What I'm hearing is "the scenario in which Terrakion checks Mega Pinsir is the scenario in which Mega Pinsir has costlessly KOed an enemy Pokemon and then can leave to wait for a better opportunity to setup or another KO opportunity". That sounds like a really terrible check, seeing as how it scares out Mega Pinsir after it's already killed something. Isn't a check supposed to stop that kind of thing?

The whole "if it's band it can't roost so it will just die" argument doesn't work when it dies after killing half of your team. It nearly always nabs a free kill vs offense when it comes in, and when it doesn't nab that free kill it comes in later to do it after your answer is worn down.

So basically Mega Pinsir, only losing HP in the process, thus ensuring the Gale Wings Pokemon will eventually either faint or create an opening (By Roosting, in which case you're probably not Banded anyway) for the enemy to use? And unlike Mega Pinsir, you can actually implement a team member and be 100% confident it will check or even counter the Gale Wings Pokemon, thus preventing it from killing "half your team"?

 

[motherlove]

I'm not quite following the logic here. What I'm hearing is "the scenario in which Terrakion checks Mega Pinsir is the scenario in which Mega Pinsir has costlessly KOed an enemy Pokemon and then can leave to wait for a better opportunity to setup or another KO opportunity". That sounds like a really terrible check, seeing as how it scares out Mega Pinsir after it's already killed something. Isn't a check supposed to stop that kind of thing?

Lcass already gave you the definition of a check a couple of times so I don't feel like repeating it.
You say that Lcass' argument doesn't stand because "how did terrak get here" but that logic would apply to pinsir too, how did he get on the field safely?
I mean if pinsir can only come in after another mon has been defeated than that makes it a terrible check in your book (at least if I understand your logic correctly)
The point still remains that terrak can either kill or scare out the pinsir and fire off a choice banded head smash into something on your team. Something he could definitely not do against a landorus.
Terrak is one among many too. There are plenty of pokemons who can take an Espeed but not a brave burd. making the number of checks for pinsir much bigger than the one for bb.

Calcs

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 364-429 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 177-208 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 319-376 (107.4 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 204-240 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 364-430 (101.9 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 235-277 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 423-498 (127.7 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Azelf: 258-304 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Azelf: 466-549 (160.1 - 188.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 234-276 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 421-496 (117.2 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 130-153 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 234-276 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (nice resist nub)

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 202-238 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 364-429 (117 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 234-276 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 520-614 (173.9 - 205.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 349-412 (102.3 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 211-250 (71 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 382-450 (128.6 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 234-276 (75.9 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 421-496 (136.6 - 161%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 147-173 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 264-311 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 220-261 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 399-469 (107.5 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 234-276 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 421-496 (140.8 - 165.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 222-262 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 400-472 (152.6 - 180.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 178-211 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 322-379 (123.3 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dewgong: 234-276 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dewgong: 421-496 (131.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lando's attack + item makes a huge difference.
Another thing that annoys me with gw is how easy it is to just toss on any team with very few downside. Compared to atespeed where you need to give away a valuable place of your team being the mega slot.

My Protean Spam team had one weak check to Gale Wings in the form of Raikou, and pushed right through teams carrying two Gale Wings Pokemon.

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 221-261 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah... I'm just going to go ahead and not believe that.


Also, my diancie got rekt way too many times by steel wing so pls stop listing it as a counter to gw.

 

[xJownage]

Several of these "checks" you listed aren't actually checks. Calc first, claim second.

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 233-274 (77.9 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adaptability Excadrill Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 52 Def Landorus-T: 186-220 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 700-824 (193.9 - 228.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Extreme Speed vs. 200 HP / 52 Def Landorus-T: 171-202 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 322-381 (104.8 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 184-218 (45.6 - 54%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(basically cripples ttar, grabs momentum, and moves to something that beats ttar)

4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 192-228 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 372-438 (102.1 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Please do not post without doing actual research to back up your claims first. Sure some of these pokemon can check Lando with ideal conditions, but add a Choice Band and and Rocks and everything goes to hell.

Research...don't use 200/52 lant because nobody uses that. If people use bulk they go for all HP.

Excadrill: First off, exca is adamant and life orb. ALWAYS. its +2 bullet punch can KO 0/0 lant after rocks. Not only that, but it run ice punch commonly to deal with zapdos, thundurus, mence, etc. Assuming Lant gets a free switch into excadrill, it can go for flare blitz...after taking an ice punch. No.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 530-624 (138.7 - 163.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I didn't mean to include mega alt, I meant to just write mega glalie and idk why I wrote alt.

Lets assume mon x thats choice banded uses the ideal move to beat x mon. No, thats not in a definition of a check. "given a free switch" implying that it choice-locks itself into a move. None of these are supposed to switch in.

Suicune was intimidate cune, the most common set on non-stall iirc.

Megagross is designed to check it after it RKs something.

Offense doesn't care for switching into Landorus-t. It cares for having things that force it out afterwards. All of those mons force it out or kill it outright (besides mega alt derp). Shouldn't offense go for being able to switch into it? Well t-tar can switch in to some extent, but w/e; when you force it out its a huge momentum boon for offense. I was actually talking to snaq about this earlier. When you force it out, the free turn is all you need in this metagame to do a ton of damage to the opponents team. Its like how the best way to answer old keldeo without using obscure counters (water absorb florges lolol) was to force it out with lando, u-turn out, and get a free turn and try to wreck face before it can get back in.

motherlove anybody who runs steel wing on lant isn't worth your time lol. if they aren't using wisp or tailwind in the last slot they basically suck.

I am actually finding a lot of landorus-t's without flare blitz, and its kind of interesting because it provides an extra moveslot. I honestly never found myself clicking flare blitz so I would use a set of BB / Wisp / U-turn / Roost or Tailwind. Tailwind is super dangerous for powerful threats such as mega garde and roost can give it quick recovery while it forces something out at the cost of momentum. Both are interesting, notable options.


On paper, Gale wings is broken af, but if you are worried about it limiting offense too much, several users in this thread of HO have denounced this claim. Most of the people arguing to ban it are those who play balance and stall; and they don't have a huge problem with it now.

Even if it is broken, the slippery slope argument can't be ignored; the 3 main -ate megas are going to go in my mind and without any means of consistent revenge killing offense may find itself even more centralized than before.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

motherlove anybody who runs steel wing on lant isn't worth your time lol. if they aren't using wisp or tailwind in the last slot they basically suck.

Yes, I've found Choice Band really boosts the power of Will-o-Wisp to amazingly high levels, I just LOVE getting locked into it. Steel Wing is actually decent coverage on Choice Band sets for actually hitting the Rock types that Talonflame inheritors hate so much for decent damage. It doesn't 2HKO Regirock or Rhyperior, but it does 30-40% ish (guaranteed 3HKO on both iirc, so get a bit of chip damage) to them while killing Diancie as well.

 

[Jajoken]

Yes, I've found Choice Band really boosts the power of Will-o-Wisp to amazingly high levels, I just LOVE getting locked into it. Steel Wing is actually decent coverage on Choice Band sets for actually hitting the Rock types that Talonflame inheritors hate so much for decent damage. It doesn't 2HKO Regirock or Rhyperior, but it does 30-40% ish (guaranteed 3HKO on both iirc, so get a bit of chip damage) to them while killing Diancie as well.

If you're running GW in the first place, you should probably have something to deal with Rock types in other mons anyway: 30-40% is kind of lackluster, especially if they have recovery (which Regenerator Regirock does -- switch out to a Steel resist and then restore all of the HP you lost to Steel Wing).

I've found that Sleep Talk is the most useful filler move on Band GW sets. Goons like Darkrai Gengar and Breloom Whatever can be a big pain if you aren't running Magic Bounce/Lum Berry. I once won a match when Gengar used Dark Void on my Salamence switch, proceeded to set up a Nasty Plot, and then died to Sleep Talk Brave Bird. It won't always be useful, but I think it has more utility than Steel Wing.

 

[xJownage]

Yes, I've found Choice Band really boosts the power of Will-o-Wisp to amazingly high levels, I just LOVE getting locked into it. Steel Wing is actually decent coverage on Choice Band sets for actually hitting the Rock types that Talonflame inheritors hate so much for decent damage. It doesn't 2HKO Regirock or Rhyperior, but it does 30-40% ish (guaranteed 3HKO on both iirc, so get a bit of chip damage) to them while killing Diancie as well.

If you don't acknowledge how good wisp is, you haven't used it. Wisp cripples about half of its counters. Rhypherior / diancie hate the chip damage, and rhyph loses its offensive presence as well. No, its actually huge.

 

[Lcass4919]

If you don't acknowledge how good wisp is, you haven't used it. Wisp cripples about half of its counters. Rhypherior / diancie hate the chip damage, and rhyph loses its offensive presence as well. No, its actually huge.

ive used wisp before, but usually im so paranoid of the random magic bounce switchin completely fucking it over. its happened to me so many times. lmao. but thats just personal opinion

 

[Kingslayer2779]

If you don't acknowledge how good wisp is, you haven't used it. Wisp cripples about half of its counters. Rhypherior / diancie hate the chip damage, and rhyph loses its offensive presence as well. No, its actually huge.

So it can cripple half of its counters and its still not overcentralzing? I really don't think there is much of case left tbh. the utility of Talonflames other moves are pretty good. Wisp cripples counters, Roost heals, Swords Dance can quickly overpower its counters, and Sub is amazing against stall/balance, which typically likes to burn landos. IMO, ban inheriting from Gale Wings, but don't ban Gale Wings on Talonflame. Not 100% sure if thats possible, but it balances gw quite nicely if its only on Talonfalme, and gives HO their strong priority that Jownage insists it needs. IMO broken/overcentralzing things shouldn't be left in a meta to check broken/overcentralzing things. But its really up to the council. If they want to leave it in, fine, just know it seriously limits the metagame, and limited/stale metagames quickly lose popularity.

 

[Ghoul King]

Lcass already gave you the definition of a check a couple of times so I don't feel like repeating it.
You say that Lcass' argument doesn't stand because "how did terrak get here" but that logic would apply to pinsir too, how did he get on the field safely?
I mean if pinsir can only come in after another mon has been defeated than that makes it a terrible check in your book (at least if I understand your logic correctly)

... Mega Pinsir isn't here to check things, it's here to murder the entire enemy team. (And opportunistically kill things) It also finds it easy to switch in on something passive and setup, or in the case of fighting a Hyper Offense team you can let something incapable of OHKOing it take down one of your Pokemon, revenge-switch Pinsir, setup, and start killing things.

Mega Pinsir's ability to act as a check or fail to do so is irrelevant to the topic.

Terrak is one among many too. There are plenty of pokemons who can take an Espeed but not a brave burd. making the number of checks for pinsir much bigger than the one for bb.

And yet you can't produce a hard counter to Mega Pinsir like you can for Gale Wings, making it considerably easier to sweep the entire team with Mega Pinsir, not even getting into the lack of recoil damage.

Another thing that annoys me with gw is how easy it is to just toss on any team with very few downside. Compared to atespeed where you need to give away a valuable place of your team being the mega slot.

That cuts both ways. I already covered this earlier: Gale Wings provides Hyper Offense a powerful priority revenger that is reliable and places no major restraints on your team construction, while Gale Wings and Extreme Speed both place pressure on Hyper Offense teams to compensate, regardless of whether you ban Gale Wings or not. If Gale Wings is unhealthy, Mega Pinsir is even more unhealthy, since you still get the "oh this dies to Flying priority and therefore is automatically worse" aspect without the upside of every Hyper Offense team getting to have a strong revenger.

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 221-261 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah... I'm just going to go ahead and not believe that.

Oh look Raikou can arrive fresh off a KO and OHKO Landorus-Therian with an Ice Beam. It's a weak check, exactly as I said. What was the point of this calc?

Yes, I've found Choice Band really boosts the power of Will-o-Wisp to amazingly high levels, I just LOVE getting locked into it. Steel Wing is actually decent coverage on Choice Band sets for actually hitting the Rock types that Talonflame inheritors hate so much for decent damage. It doesn't 2HKO Regirock or Rhyperior, but it does 30-40% ish (guaranteed 3HKO on both iirc, so get a bit of chip damage) to them while killing Diancie as well.

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 118-140 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nope.

IMO broken/overcentralzing things shouldn't be left in a meta to check broken/overcentralzing things.

Every time I see this sentiment it annoys me because it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what qualifies as broken and even to an extent overcentralizing. Ubers are broken in OU, but are fair alongside each other. BL Pokemon are broken for UU, but often underwhelming in OU. Etc. If all the top threats are broken, none of them are.

I dunno maybe you mean something different but this is what it sounds like to me and this sentiment drives me up the wall.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

If you don't acknowledge how good wisp is, you haven't used it. Wisp cripples about half of its counters. Rhypherior / diancie hate the chip damage, and rhyph loses its offensive presence as well. No, its actually huge.

I have in fact used wisp and usually use a Wisp/Roost or Sub or SD (2)/BB or Acrobatics set on my GW mons, but when using a Choice Band set to wallbreak/Revenge kill bulky mons, I would rather have Steel Wing (I usually try to get the 30% or so necessary on Regirock/Rhyp, then kill em with Steel Wing). Wisp is bad on choice sets by locking you into a status move which really kills momentum, plus the odd bouncer entirely screws you over and makes you pretty much irrelevant if you don't run a Heal Beller (which many HO teams do not). So yes, I'm not an ignorant noob and I have used wisp and know how good it gets, but saying anybody who does not run it is shit is just plain rude imo--there are other options available, that all have their pros and cons.

 

[I like donkeys]

I have in fact used wisp and usually use a Wisp/Roost or Sub or SD (2)/BB or Acrobatics set on my GW mons, but when using a Choice Band set to wallbreak/Revenge kill bulky mons, I would rather have Steel Wing (I usually try to get the 30% or so necessary on Regirock/Rhyp, then kill em with Steel Wing). Wisp is bad on choice sets by locking you into a status move which really kills momentum, plus the odd bouncer entirely screws you over and makes you pretty much irrelevant if you don't run a Heal Beller (which many HO teams do not). So yes, I'm not an ignorant noob and I have used wisp and know how good it gets, but saying anybody who does not run it is shit is just plain rude imo--there are other options available, that all have their pros and cons.

Choiced wisp can be useful for bluffing a non-choiced set, and can screw your opponent over expecting not to be 2HKOd or OHKOd because you obviously lack a choice band, think of scarfchomp with stealth rock in OU. I actually used banded wisp lando on some of my teams and is a fairly decent choice and if you predict Rhyperior to come in or something then you feel like a legend ^w^ but otherwise wisp is pretty redundant on a choiced set and almost always forces you out :/