np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

[baddummy]

Alright, so I'd like to elaborate on some of arguments, because I realised I sounded pretty anti-stall, anti-defence, and after actually playing this style of team on the ladder, one that benefitted from Landorus I being gone, this hasn't changed. What I aim to do here is to briefly go over some arguments that I don't agree with.

1) Lack of "true" counters
This is actually true, Landorus I can run over usual switch ins with unusual moves, but I don't agree that this is unhealthy at all. In theory, you can't switch in anything other than Mega Latias or Cress, but this isn't true in practice. Different sets have different switch-ins, but they all have some, so basically if you want to totally null a powerful breaker, you have to dedicate more than 1 teamslot to it. A lack of switch ins is just a breaker doing its job well, and it is balanced provided it isn't constantly getting free switch-in opportunities, and it has an abundance of things that can revenge kill it, these are both true of Landorus I. You can compare it to Hydreigon last gen, with a lack of switch-ins, but an abundance of checks, it was perfectly fine. As speed stats keep increasing, now 101 base is not that good.

2) This fact means that it heavily pressures defensive teams, and heavily limits their building options. Without this pokemon, new cores become available.
Yeah, I'm not actually going to argue with this point, but say that it is the job of a breaker to heavily limit the building options of a team that tries to have switch-ins for everything. If it didn't, it wouldn't be a very good breaker.

3) It differentiates itself from other breakers by having several advantages. It doesn't take up a mega slot, take life orb recoil, or spike damage. It is also very effective against offence.
Well, I agree that Landorus I is a highly splashable, very cost effective mon, but that's just the meta we're dealing with here, it isn't the only one. It's not like it can just run through entire teams by itself, or if it can, then the team isn't built very well. Fine, it isn't weak to rocks, and it doesn't wear itself down with a life orb, but you could also point out that other breakers in the tier have advantages over it that may cause you to pick them over it. RD Manaphy has an immunity to status, Charizard Y has recovery and hits harder, Gengar, while it might not hit as hard as the others, it does have few switch-ins, and is faster.

As for it being effective against offence too, that's correct, it is decent. I'm not going to buy the idea that it should be banned because it wrecks a variety of playstyles though. It doesn't limit the building of an offence team that much at all when compared to other threats in the tier, like Lopunny, Zard X, or Altaria. There is a specific type of passive team for which Landorus exerts one of the greatest pressure out of any pokemon in the tier, it's not stagnating the meta at all by forcing a certain style of building, there are plenty of other options besides a passive team.

4) You can still break through defence with certain mons, even without full stall having to prepare for Landorus I
I can, now it requires more specialisation because now they can prepare for more stuff, but this isn't even an argument as to why it should be banned. Fat balance and stall cores were already pretty common on the ladder, even if they did become more common in the suspect ladder. If it invalidated an entire play style, that would be different, and I would be pro-ban. I mentioned in the last paragraph how there are other options than passive teams, you don't have to use them, but even with Landorus I, you can use them. In a metagame with Landorus I, there can still be offensive, balanced, and bulkier teams, so it doesn't hurt variety more than any other prominent pokemon.

5) It can sweep once you remove its checks
Yes, it can.

I'll say a little bit more. If Latias is your one check to Landorus, and you are aware that it gets pursuit trapped by a very common team mate, then that's not very good building. Not to say Latias doesn't work, but that you should also have something like a Band Azumarill, a Talonflame, or a Rotom-Wash. It isn't alone in being a pokemon that requires more than one check, either.


Essentially, I'm not denying that Landorus is a very good pokemon. It can be put on to a lot of teams, though not without a complete lack of thought like Aegislash, and varies from decent to very effective against different play styles. However, it does not polarise the meta by completely eliminating a certain team model, it does not sweep through teams with one turn of set up, and it is not unique in being a pokemon with very few switch-ins that can punish free turns. Landorus has a strong impact on the meta, it does not define it, so really, I think it belongs in S rank and not on the banlist.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

""But that you should also have something like a Band Azumarill, a Talonflame, or a Rotom-Wash. It isn't alone in being a pokemon that requires more than one check, either."

This is ironic because you are arguing in favor of what the pro ban side says if you dont have offensive checks (rofl when we talk about defensive checks ) u succumb to landorus I also ur checks cant kill landorus I at full even choice band huge power aqua jet from adamant azumarill doesnt kill.

 

[ginganinja]

In response to Shurtugal, I think you would be living in a dreamworld if you asked people to ignore teammates in a suspect discussion. Yeah, Pursuit trapping is a thing but if there is a large majority of Pursuit Trapping teams specifically designed to abuse the fact that they can remove two of Landorus-I's biggest counters in the metagame, well then you have a problem, specifically because Landorus-I is obviously so offensively threatening that the potential disadvantage of running a pursuit trapper is offset by the large advantage the Landorus-I user gets against the opponent's team when Latias is gone.

Don't tell me that we haven't (indirectly) looked at teammates before during past suspects. Waaaay back in BW we assumed people would (shock horror), use Sandstorm with Excadrill. Imagine that! We assumed that Genesect would often have Dugtrio support which allowed it to bypass Heatran, and we assumed that Deoxys-S would run counterspin measures. Sure, we still banned the individual pokemon, and yes, it would be nice to look at the individual pokemon itself, but sticking you fingers in your ear's yelling "lalala I'm not listening" isn't really a proper solution. To use your example, yes, if DragSpam or FlightSpam suddenly became an all encompassing issue, then obviously, there would be an main instigator that would need to be removed. We have done this previously.

So really, you can disagree if you like, I'm sure as hell not going to put a gun to your head and convince you otherwise. That said, I'm not impressed at intentionally ignoring evidence that may or may not point to Landorus-I being unhealthy for the metagame. Now thats your choice , fine, but don't go around telling people that its not relevant in the slightest, because its been proven to be important in the past.

Not to say Latias doesn't work, but that you should also have something like a Band Azumarill, a Talonflame, or a Rotom-Wash. It isn't alone in being a pokemon that requires more than one check, either.

If you need multiple Landorus-I checks then its unhealthy for teambuilding and the metagame, period. Sure, there might be other pokemon out there that require the same, but again, on a case by case basis, that doesn't make them any less unhealthy EITHER. The fact of the matter is that you have 6 slots, and if you have to dedicate 1/3 of your team to handling one threat in the metagame, then I'd relook your team...and if thats not an option, then I'd take a hard look at the pokemon you are attempting to check.

 

[Invok3r]

Ok guys I just got my reqs with a pretty decent win loss ratio, and i'd like to post my thoughts here before I vote. Lando-i is arguably the best pokemon in the ou tier, with nice bulk for a fast attacker, good speed, and amazing coverage and power.

Because of this, it can crush many balance and semi-stall teams with the right sets. Balance oftentimes runs things like latios and spdef skarm to beat lando-i, but it can even beat those with knock off and focus blast respectively. Although ho teams do pretty well vs it, it can usually get kills, and can prevent mons like scarf lando-t and scarf keld from locking into earthquake and secret sword respectively, because it can threaten to sweep with rock polish. Lando-i only has 2 true counters in mega latias and cresselia, but those are only really used in stall and semi-stall teams, so balance still doesne't have a reliable way to beat lando-i. Torn-t is a pretty good lando-i check, but it can get its AV knocked off, which allows it to be 2hkod by sludge wave / HP Ice.

I have found the suspect ladder to be much more enjoyable than the original ladder for a couple reasons. Primarily, teambuilding was much easier for obvious reasons, and bulkier teams were much more viable. Also, a wider variety of wallbreakers were being seen, such as kyurem-b, victini, sd lando-t, hydreigon, and more.

Overall, lando-i is a behemoth in the ou metagame, and it restricts teambuilding a ton due to the fact that there are few true counters. The suspect ladder was much more fun than the ladder with lando-i, so this is an easy BAN for me. Thanks so much guys, have a good day! ^_^

 

[Anttya]

This ladder was the death of me, Quick Claw dittos so high up in the ladder ._.

Anyways, I'd like to start of by saying that Lando's broken. Sheer Force, A decent speed, and a ton of viable sets make it near impossible to counter. Any "checks" it has are ruined by Knock Off, and Rock Slide. Rock Polish beats revenge killers such as Keldeo (Just RP on something like Tran or one of the hundred things it scares out), making priority one of the only reliable ways to kill it. But lets be honest here, you're going to have an insanely hard time bringing it in unless if you sack something.

However, the suspect ladder was really fun (except when a Ditto's quick claw activates 3 times in a row). Teambuilding became a lot easier and much more enjoyable since I can use things that'd otherwise be ruined by Lando.

So yeah, ban it. It's not fun when you have to trash teams because it gets ruined by Lando

 

[Shaka Brah]

If you need multiple Landorus-I checks then its unhealthy for teambuilding and the metagame, period. Sure, there might be other pokemon out there that require the same, but again, on a case by case basis, that doesn't make them any less unhealthy EITHER. The fact of the matter is that you have 6 slots, and if you have to dedicate 1/3 of your team to handling one threat in the metagame, then I'd relook your team...and if thats not an option, then I'd take a hard look at the pokemon you are attempting to check.

sure, but lando has tons of "versatile" splashable checks that are capable of keeping more than one pokemon at bay, you aren't dedicating two team slots of your team solely to lando and the only team type that has to do that is MAYBE stall (which can afford to do so) although cresselia still does have utility outside walling lando. having to do this when teambuilding is, well, a consequence of playing a metagame as diverse and powerful as ORAS OU. when you're teambuilding with lando in mind, there are so many ways to both offensively and defensively check it that making sure your team doesn't crumble to lando isn't as hyperbolically restrictive as people are making it out to be in this thread because it gets checked by mons that outspeed its meager (for ORAS) speed stat as well as relevant priority that stays relevant even when it isn't in the tier. not having to consider lando when teambuilding doesn't make the tier better, it makes it worse. we're left with way too many diverse styles of building, tons of shit that suddenly becomes way more viable and easy to use because lando isn't there holding together the floodgates, and a handful of wallbreakers that do different things -- except that they have less survivability and not nearly as much utility across all 3 matchups (offense, balance, stall). this is way worse for the matchup issue (which, yeah, is a legit reason to keep lando in OU) than "running into the perfect cteam landorus coverage set". just something that everyone should consider before sending their votes in.

 

[ginganinja]

not having to consider lando when teambuilding doesn't make the tier better, it makes it worse. we're left with way too many diverse styles of building, tons of shit that suddenly becomes way more viable and easy to use because lando isn't there holding together the floodgates...

1. We don't keep unhealthy stuff in OU because it balances other pokemon. You should know this by now, there isn't really an acceptable excuse anymore to pretend otherwise.

2. Can you take the time to explain how one major threat leaving the metagame makes teambuilding easier?

 

[Shaka Brah]

1. We don't keep unhealthy stuff in OU because it balances other pokemon. You should know this by now, there isn't really an acceptable excuse anymore to pretend otherwise.

Not arguing that, so don't put words into my mouth. Never admitted that Lando-I was unhealthy for OU because it isn't IMO.

The second point's been glazed over several times in antiban posts throughout the thread. Lando's existence definitely centralizes the way in which teams are built in a healthy manner and eases matchup problems. Just because he does that doesn't make him unhealthy for the metagame, especially in one that's so desperate for stability that the council actually retested aegis because the tier is "heavily influenced by the match up component of the game."

Stable metagames NEED strong Pokemon to centralize them. Not "lol win button" ones like mence or luke, surely, ones that are powerful enough tons of teams to consider running them & force people to prepare for them. If you ban S-rank mons because they're S-rank and centralize teambuilding then you're letting the less powerful stuff "rise up" and become more powerful within the space of the metagame, which means lots more shit is even more viable and get used more -- Too much diversity, too many matchup issues.

 

[eden]

Not arguing that, so don't put words into my mouth. Never admitted that Lando-I was unhealthy for OU because it isn't IMO.

So you're saying Lando-I isn't an instawin button versus balance and AT LEAST one other playstyle(tbh its solid against all three major playstyles at least imo) if paired with like Tyranitar?Are you trying to say we NEED broken shit in OU? Good luck getting anyone to believe that man. Diversity is bad right? The funny thing is that you're operating under the assumption that Lando-I keeps some mons in check? Which mons are those exactly? It fulfills an offensive role and iirc doesn't really check anything. Unless of course you meant "check" as in force out some stuff than yeah. Actually you're operating under the same fallacy that led to Mega Metagross staying unbanned. Because people thought that MGross kept fairies in "check" and hence it was on the whole "positive" for the metagame. What "positive" force in the meta is Lando-I? Other than making balance and a play style of its choice invalid with the correct set of moves :/. Just like MGross I've seen games that are entirely decided by the set of four moves, that the Lando-I user happened to be using at the time. I'm not advocating that every mon with no counters should be banned,but they should at least have a reasonable number of hard checks. Problem is with this mon its most consistent checks in the Latis are Pursuit bait, so it often just a simple case of a double made,and a game won. Only way to beat it,is to be both faster,and have the power to OHKO it,which I feel would make the meta full of offensive teams. But the problem is if versus offense it gets that one Rock Polish off,that's usually all it needs, so how is this not broken? Tech plz ;;

"not having to consider lando when teambuilding doesn't make the tier better, it makes it worse. we're left with way too many diverse styles of building, tons of shit that suddenly becomes way more viable and easy to use because lando isn't there holding together the floodgates..."

AHAHAAH this is an example of ill informed reasoning itt. Also why is diversity a bad thing? And tbh I don't think Lando-I even affects the viability of that many things so lol. Especially seeing as how most of OU can't even tank 2 hits from this beast N_N

 

[Clair]

Not arguing that, so don't put words into my mouth. Never admitted that Lando-I was unhealthy for OU because it isn't IMO.

The second point's been glazed over several times in antiban posts throughout the thread. Lando's existence definitely centralizes the way in which teams are built in a healthy manner and eases matchup problems. Just because he does that doesn't make him unhealthy for the metagame, especially in one that's so desperate for stability that the council actually retested aegis because the tier is "heavily influenced by the match up component of the game."

Stable metagames NEED strong Pokemon to centralize them. Not "lol win button" ones like mence or luke, surely, ones that are powerful enough tons of teams to consider running them & force people to prepare for them. If you ban S-rank mons because they're S-rank and centralize teambuilding then you're letting the less powerful stuff "rise up" and become more powerful within the space of the metagame, which means lots more shit is even more viable and get used more -- Too much diversity, too many matchup issues.

Your point is that the metagame needs a handful of broken Pokemon, with a high opportunity cost for not using them. You think versatility is the enemy of a good metagame, and that keeping stuff like Lando in the tier is the way to achieve that end.

I have another possibility. How about we start with the premise that versatility is a positive thing. Sure, this makes it harder for defensive strategies to prepare for everything (although one could argue this is compensated for by not having to deal with one of the tier's best wallbreakers). So if necessary, we make defensive teams stronger, by removing threats that destroy them easily and have a low opportunity cost (i.e. like Lando they perform adequately against all playstyles).

Ideally, this results in a metagame in which defensive play is just as, or slightly more, viable than it is now, but rather than having to go to extreme lengths to defend against a few centralising threats, it's kept in check partly by the versatility of threats it has to deal with (leading, I would imagine, to the use of more multi-purpose walls). At the same time, breaking through defensive cores would be less about slapping a "stallbreaker" in your team, and more about using a number of Pokemon to keep pressure up and eventually overload a particular wall.

Doesn't this sound like a much better metagame than the one you envisage?

 

[Shaka Brah]

So you're saying Lando-I isn't an instawin button versus balance if paired with like Tyranitar? Good luck getting anyone to believe that man. Diversity is bad right? The funny thing is that you're operating under the assumption that Lando-I keeps some mons in check? Which mons are those exactly? It fulfills an offensive role and iirc doesn't really check anything. Unless of course you meant "check" as in force out some stuff than yeah. Actually you're operating under the same fallacy that led to Mega Metagross staying unbanned. Because people thought that MGross kept fairies in "check" and hence it was on the whole "positive" for the metagame. What "positive" force in the meta is Lando-I? Other than making balance and a play style of its choice invalid with the correct set of moves :/. Just like MGross I've seen games that are entirely decided by the set of four moves, that the Lando-I user happened to be using at the time. I'm not advocating that every mon with no counters should be banned,but they should at least have a reasonable number of hard checks. Problem is with this mon its most consistent checks in the Latis are Pursuit bait, so it often just a simple case of a double made,and a game won. Only way to beat it,is to be both faster,and have the power to OHKO it,which I feel would make the meta full of offensive teams. But the problem is if versus offense it gets that one Rock Polish off,that's usually all it needs, so how is this not broken? Tech plz ;;


AHAHAAH this is an example of ill informed reasoning itt. Also why is diversity a bad thing? And tbh I don't think Lando-I even affects the viability of that many things so lol. Especially seeing as how most of OU can't even tank 2 hits from this beast N_N

??? It's without a doubt the best stallbreaker in the tier because it isn't total shit deadweight vs. offense and can break through tons of fat shit without setup due to its sheer power and longevity in matchups vs. defensive teams. When I say that it keeps teambuilding in check I'm referring to the fact that teams are forced to prepare for it. You also very drastically overestimate its ability to cleansweep teams, especially offense, which is a matchup where not only is it normally unable to get a rock polish off and sweep clean because there's way too much pressure on it to do so in optimal circumstances 90% of the time, but where there's also priority waiting in the back, discouraging it from using up a valuable free turn to just RP. Lando ISN'T as threatening as you make it out to be; sure, it gets tons of 2hkos, but who really gives a shit? It doesn't have a lot of the OHKOs that it had last gen which is what really pushed it over the edge and it isn't super bulky or fast.

Anyway, your point is that the metagame needs a handful of broken Pokemon, with a high opportunity cost for not using them. You think versatility is the enemy of a good metagame, and that keeping stuff like Lando in the tier is the way to achieve that end.

I have another possibility. How about we start with the premise that versatility is a positive thing. Sure, this makes it harder for defensive strategies to prepare for everything (although one could argue this is compensated for by not having to deal with one of the tier's best wallbreakers). So if necessary, we make defensive teams stronger, by removing threats that destroy them easily and have a low opportunity cost (i.e. like Lando they perform adequately against all playstyles).

Ideally, this results in a metagame in which defensive play is just as, or slightly more, viable than it is now, but rather than having to go to extreme lengths to defend against a few centralising threats, it's kept in check partly by the versatility of threats it has to deal with (leading, I would imagine, to the use of more multi-purpose walls). At the same time, breaking through defensive cores would be less about slapping a "stallbreaker" in your team, and more about using a number of Pokemon to keep pressure up and eventually overload a particular wall.

Doesn't this sound like a much better metagame than the one you envisage?

I didn't say broken, I said S-rank. You people keep putting words in my mouth and it's extremely annoying. That's what lando is. S-rank. Broken mons are win buttons, not powerful offensive mons that force opposing teams to respect them in both their plays and building structure.

One thing you have to understand about ORAS is that versatility doesn't just effect defensive teams; in fact, most stall walls are so versatile in their walling that the matchup issue effects them less than, say, HO or bulky offense teams right now which can be swept by a certain mon with setup move X or coverage set Y. Stall and balance teams, owing to their ability to fantastically support and have room for unaware mons and dedicated walls with incredible defensive typing, don't lose to setup sweeper X or fast-and-hard-hitting offense raper Y that easily; breakers and aggressive hazards double-switching are their biggest worries. The need to check Landorus-I ultimately centralizes teams of every style and gives them less freedom to, say, run a random sweeper that paves its way through some teams on a good matchup; they're actually incentivized to not only run mons that check the S-Rank mons, but the S-Rank mons themselves, leading to much more predictable teambuilding which eases up on the matchup issue incredibly.

Also, AGAIN, defensive teams don't even have to go to "extreme" lengths to wall Lando like you're implying. Most, and probably all of the most commonly run ones, are multipurpose. Torn-T? That's multipurpose as fuck on Balance and even some Stall teams I've seen; it still sees tons of usage when Lando's banned. SpD Glisc? It's a good slot for some teams because it can stay in on a few problematic mons all day, and the SD variant can be a solid wincon IMO. The list can go on. That is, again, a very hyperbolic way of describing Lando's influence on the metagame. Just to repeat myself one more time, teams DON'T HAVE TO GO EXTREMELY OUT OF THEIR WAY to check it - It's centralizing but healthily so. Stop bringing this shit up.

This is, IMO, the best road we can hope to go down towards balancing ORAS; keep in the healthily-centralizing S-Rank mons. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over so if you reply with more of this crap I'm probably not going to read it.

 

[Clair]

I didn't say broken, I said S-rank. You people keep putting words in my mouth and it's extremely annoying. That's what lando is. S-rank. Broken mons are win buttons, not powerful offensive mons that force opposing teams to respect them in both their plays and building structure.

One thing you have to understand about ORAS is that versatility doesn't just effect defensive teams; in fact, most stall walls are so versatile in their walling that the matchup issue effects them less than, say, HO or bulky offense teams right now which can be swept by a certain mon with setup move X or coverage set Y. Stall and balance teams, owing to their ability to fantastically support and have room for unaware mons and dedicated walls with incredible defensive typing, don't lose to setup sweeper X or fast-and-hard-hitting offense raper Y that easily; breakers and aggressive hazards double-switching are their biggest worries. The need to check Landorus-I ultimately centralizes teams of every style and gives them less freedom to, say, run a random sweeper that paves its way through some teams on a good matchup; they're actually incentivized to not only run mons that check the S-Rank mons, but the S-Rank mons themselves, leading to much more predictable teambuilding which eases up on the matchup issue incredibly.

Also, AGAIN, defensive teams don't even have to go to "extreme" lengths to wall Lando like you're implying. Most, and probably all of the most commonly run ones, are multipurpose. Torn-T? That's multipurpose as fuck on Balance and even some Stall teams I've seen; it still sees tons of usage when Lando's banned. SpD Glisc? It's a good slot for some teams because it can stay in on a few problematic mons all day, and the SD variant can be a solid wincon IMO. The list can go on. That is, again, a very hyperbolic way of describing Lando's influence on the metagame. Just to repeat myself one more time, teams DON'T HAVE TO GO EXTREMELY OUT OF THEIR WAY to check it - It's centralizing but healthily so. Stop bringing this shit up.

This is, IMO, the best road we can hope to go down towards balancing ORAS; keep in the healthily-centralizing S-Rank mons. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over so if you reply with more of this crap I'm probably not going to read it.

The problem here is that you're re-defining "broken" to suit yourself. Half the occupants of the Uber tier wouldn't be "win buttons" in OU, but they'd still be unquestionably broken. Fundamentally, you're refusing to recognise Lando as broken because you see it as a healthy influence on the metagame. When people disagree with you, citing that they believe there's a better potential metagame which doesn't require the presence of overpowering threats to centralise it, and thus that Lando should be banned, you become obnoxious.

To address the rest of your post; no, versatility doesn't just affect defensive teams, but it affects them more significantly than offensive teams because their relative passivity limits their options for playing around a threat that they hadn't specifically prepared for. Whereas a well-built offensive team with a bad matchup against M-Sceptile, say, or M-Aggron, can usually still beat said threat by playing better, defensive teams have much less scope for doing so. Next, you argue that walls cover so many threats at once that versatility doesn't affect defensive teams, which is patently rubbish. To take your own example, it's becoming increasingly difficult to justify using Unaware on stall, because doing so will limit the team's ability to cover various wallbreakers. Finally, you reiterate your belief that a predictable, centralised metagame in which everyone has to use the same Pokemon is desirable (which the majority of the playerbase would disagree with).

Everyone in the pro-ban camp believes that teams do have to go to extreme lengths to deal with Lando. Yes, there are a lot of adequate checks to it, and all of them are multipurpose. But they're also typically sub-optimal, which is the point. The presence of Lando in the metagame forces defensive teams to make significant sacrifices, either in threat coverage or effectiveness.

 

[brittney♥kitty]

Lando-I being great against offense is a myth. Most mons run on offense pressure it too much for it to get up a polish. A good player isn't gonna give a free turn to polish, especially if it means they lose if it does. And even if it does get up a polish, any good offense team has solid priority users on it or else it would just get eaten alive by speedy threats like m-lop.

Most people are just building teams that are too passive to deal with lando so they think it's broken. The current ladder is proof of this.

 

[North Gate]

Lando-I being great against offense is a myth. Most mons run on offense pressure it too much for it to get up a polish. A good player isn't gonna give a free turn to polish, especially if it means they lose if it does. And even if it does get up a polish, any good offense team has solid priority users on it or else it would just get eaten alive by speedy threats like m-lop.

Most people are just building teams that are too passive to deal with lando so they think it's broken. The current ladder is proof of this.

Don't you think that the current ladder is more defensively oriented and passive because Lando is gone? THINK DAMN IT!

Also it isn't like impossible to get up a polish. Landorus will probably survive every priority not named Ice Shard (it survives choice band azus ajet) even if it comes in on rocks and you shouldn't be setting up a RP Landorus on a team with a Weavile or Mamo or w/e still alive to just come in and revenge you. It's easier than you think to set up RP because Lando has surprisingly good natural bulk (and since it raises it's own speed +2, you can actually run more HP investment to take these hits better) and if you plan on doing that said priority users should be removed to begin with.

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 114-135 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 160-189 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 260-308 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 186-219 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 262-309 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(pls dont kill me i just took priority off the top of my head i know these aren't offense ran much but don't kill me pls)

I know some of those (most of those) aren't run on Offense commonly, but look at how Landorus takes those hits. Obviously it's not going to set up a Rock Polish in FRONT of these threats, but you get my point. It's neutral hit taking isn't half bad and there are not a lot of things that can reliably revenge kill it after a RP or kill it on first turn. You argue that 'a good player' isn't going to give a turn to polish, but by that logic, 'a good player' isn't going to set up a Landorus-I with Rock Polish when Weavile, Dragonite, Azumarill, Diggersby, or Scizor are on the field still alive.

Honestly your post kinda just strengthened the centralization argument with Landorus because of your last sentence and you countered your first argument by bringing up 'a good player'. This isn't one sided. Lets act like the player using Landorus and the player going against it are equal skill.

E: shush about other breakers i know they exist

 

[baddummy]

What "positive" force in the meta is Lando-I? Other than making balance and a play style of its choice invalid with the correct set of moves :/.

Problem is with this mon its most consistent checks in the Latis are Pursuit bait, so it often just a simple case of a double made,and a game won. Only way to beat it,is to be both faster,and have the power to OHKO it,which I feel would make the meta full of offensive teams. But the problem is if versus offense it gets that one Rock Polish off,that's usually all it needs, so how is this not broken? Tech plz ;;

I have to say, I really don't agree with any of this. The Landorus and TTar core may be able to trap and eliminate latis, a popular check to Landorus, but there are plenty of other Landorus checks that this core can't trap, checks that work much better against it, so even when you consider that it isn't too difficult to remove Latis in a battle where you are using a TTar, it is not broken, there's much more to be done than just pursuit trap and sweep with every team. Offence has lots of other ways of dealing with it after it has got off a Rock Polish, even ignoring the fact that it is very difficult for it to setup in the first place, I'll say it again, Landorus is not one of the most threatening pokemon for offence right now, there are others which put in far more work. Stating that the meta was just offence teams is not true, balance and bulkier builds were still viable before Landorus I got removed on the suspect ladder, they just got noticeably better with it gone. It never made "invalid" any playstyle, the regular ladder with Landorus had plenty of balanced builds, the metagame was not one in which people were forced into playing a particular style.

Everyone in the pro-ban camp believes that teams do have to go to extreme lengths to deal with Lando. Yes, there are a lot of adequate checks to it, and all of them are multipurpose. But they're also typically sub-optimal, which is the point. The presence of Lando in the metagame forces defensive teams to make significant sacrifices, either in threat coverage or effectiveness.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "sub-optimal", especially when admitting that there are checks to it, and that those checks fulfill other roles than just checking Landorus that are also beneficial to a more defensive team. If you mean that you could cover more threats without having to check Landorus, then the same could be said of a lot of powerful pokemon, it neither proves it is broken nor proves that it isn't.

I'll see if I can offer a really concise argument here:
a) A metagame with Landorus allows for a variety of builds, it does not totally invalidate any of them.
b) Landorus may put a lot of pressure on bulkier builds, but so do other pokemon, this is the goal of a breaker, and it is a healthy one. There are viable checks to it that can be run.
b ii) Crucially, Landorus does not put more pressure on bulky builds than these other pokemon, I think you'll find that Gardevoir, Manaphy, and Charizard Y all make defence much more difficult to play than Landorus does. GARDEVOIR!!!!!!!! has mentioned that Landorus is one of the best breakers in the tier, this is something I agree with, because it is good against all matchups, but not outright broken vs any of them.
c) It does not clean sweep through teams, even after a pursuit trap, it is not an instawin button as has been made out. Bulkier builds have defensive checks they can make use of, offensive builds have priority and other checks besides Latis, not to mention that it is very difficult for it to RP against offence in the first place. It is a potentially threatening set up sweeper, but it requires smart play and good team support from the user in order to set up conditions in which it can sweep.

I don't see how somebody can agree with all of the above points, and then come to the conclusion that Landorus is broken, so presumably, somebody who is pro-ban will have some rebuttals to these.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

So i just finished getting reqs, and the suspect ladder metagame currently doesn't even look anything different from the regular OU metagame, so im voting no ban on landorus. a bunch of people who claim that stall/balance will be damn near unbreakable on ladder are dead wrong, because ORAS is pretty much littered with a whole bunch of absurdly powerful wallbreakers who give these super passive teams trouble (ex: sd mega chomp, mega hera, manaphy, char Y, gardevoir, etc). theres a lot of diversity in ORAS atm and removing landorus doesn't even make teambuilding easier, its just one less pokemon from the vast amount of pokemon in the tier, and then you have to take into account the number of things that will inevitably rise up if landorus is gone.

i find there to be no reason as to why landorus should be banned. to me, its just a very strong threat, one of the top threats in the tier, but its pretty much just like every hard hitter in the tier. im seeing way too much people in this thread talk about its so called "versatility", which makes landorus have literally no counters besides mega latias and the rare af cresselia. while im not gonna deny this is true, you guys dont understand that ORAS OU has many, many pokemon that are just like this, and have pretty much no counters, or very very few counters. if you guys think landorus is broken because it hits hard af and has only 2 rare counters, then i can say the same thing for a lot of other pokemon, such as thundurus, or kyurem-b, or altaria, azu, charizard, metagross, etc. how is thundurus not broken by this logic then? it has literally 0 universal counters, as it can get by each of its checks with the appropriate coverage move. hp flying for venusaur, grass knot for hippo/quag, knock off for latis, superpower for chansey, not to mention it can hax through each one of its faster checks 25% of the time by clicking twave. how is azu not broken under this logic? azumarill has literally 0 counters besides mega venusaur. slowbro gets 2hkoed by band PR after rocks, skarm gets 2hkoed by waterfall, amoong/ferro get destroyed by +6 knock off.... celebi cant even kill azumarill after a belly drum + sitrus with giga drain. theres no universal charizard counter cuz they all get destroyed by either charizard Y or charizard X, and then you can break it down even further by saying charizard X has 0 counters as well, since it can run a wallbreaking set with SD outrage or tank WoW. kyurem-b can bypass all of its counters with just iron head/hp fire, or you can just run it with a magnezone just as how you can run landorus with pursuit. Fact is, having 0 counters, or very few counters, doesn't make you broken at all, otherwise a bunch of top tier threats would be considered broken.

landorus performs exceptional vs balance, no doubt about that, but it struggles to have the same effect vs offense teams and stall teams, as offense teams have the speed and firepower to make sure its not much of a concern, and stall has the defensive backbone to sponge its absurdly powerful attacks. and no, landorus doesn't "cleanly 6-0 offense" at all. its actually rare and hard af to do so, as all these things need to happen:
1. you actually have to have the move rock polish (and sacrifice a valuable moveslot which makes your performance vs balance worse, think of it like metagross)
2. you actually have to be able to set up rock polish (actually quite hard to do when you consider the vast majority of offensive threats outspeed and have a coverage move to KO you, like thundurus for example)
3. the priority users on the opponent's team must all be dead, and this is offense, so its naturally going to have priority users. you gotta get tflame out the way, band azu, ice shard users, and even bisharp/dnite can kill you with sucker punch/espeed since you definitely wont be at full health after setting RP
4. you have to sufficiently weaken the opponent's team before you can sweep (Gasp! just like pretty much every other sweeper out there, right?) because you can do some calcs yourself, landorus doesn't actually get as many KOes as one may think. theres a bunch of mons on offense that can still sponge a hit from you and KO you in return (ex gyarados, thundy, latios, manaphy, etc)

just as i said before with how a bunch of other pokemon in ORAS also have 0 or very few counters like landorus, theres also certain pokemon that wall each and every set of these pokemon, just like landorus! no matter what 4 moves you run on landorus, it will always be walled by something. its no different than something like manaphy, or metagross, or thundy, or altaria.... theres a lot of defensive checks to landorus when you take a look at the tier: spdef skarm is a good example, mandibuzz too, slowking, av slowbro, latis, spdef zapdos, spdef tflame if no rocks, torn-t, blissey, chansey, charizard Y, list goes on. now when you're talking offensive pokemon that can check it, this list is even bigger. so many pokemon on offense teams outspeed and KO you its ridiculous: ice punch metagross, ice punch lopunny, latis, keld, thundy + pretty much every fast electric with hp ice, weavile. and even if they dont KO you, lets face it, they're still doing massive damage to you where you're pretty much at like 20% health or so and near useless to do anything else.

now i know many of the pro ban side will say stuff like landorus can't be whittled down nearly as easily as some of the aforementioned threats because it doesnt take LO recoil and isnt SR weak such as something like kube, but there are also a bunch of other pokemon just like this. take metagross for instance, its resistant to SR and has pretty much a free LO boost as well. landorus also lacks something a bunch of the pokemon i mentioned before have, and thats recovery. you can chip away lando little by little and it'll go down eventually. stuff like altaria, charizard, talonflame, kyurem-b, they all have 0 counters as well, they're SR weak, but you can easily turn this the other way by saying all of those things have roost to stay healthy where landorus doesn't. landorus also lacks the solid bulk of kube to tank hits or the solid defensive typing of altaria.

the boosting landorus sets (im talking about RP and CM here) are literally like every other boosting sweeper out there and i dont get why many ppl are praising these sets like some kind of god that can either 6-0 offense or 6-0 stall because this is wrong as fuck. RP sets arent even that effective vs offense, it'll only sweep them rarely, because landorus lacks the defensive stats and the defensive typing to tank a hit from offensive powerhouses in the first place in order to set up a RP. now, CM sets can be lethal vs stall, but its literally like every other boosting super hard hitter vs stall. how is cm landorus more threatening to stall then say, SD adamant char X? or sd hera, or cm gardevoir, or TG manaphy.... its not. its definitely threatening, but stall can status you or something to wear you down as you set up and hopefully stall you out till you die.

to me, landorus is no different than a bunch of other top threats in ORAS. its just a super strong attacker that excels against balance and is less valuable vs offense and stall teams. it also doesn't have a detrimental effect on the metagame, as evident by the similarities between the OU ladder and suspect ladder. theres no reason as to why it should be banned in the first place, so im voting NO BAN

 

[scpinion]

I finished my suspect laddering when smogon was down the other day so I didn't get a chance to post my final thoughts on the sand genie.

previous post

How about a list of my thoughts prior to hitting the suspect ladder instead of huge paragraphs...

I'm leaning toward banning Landorus-I, but could be swayed by the ladder environment or anti-ban posts (once I take the time to skim the thread).
Risk vs. Reward: This is the most important point for me. Lando-i is a low-risk, high-reward Pokemon when building. It has sets to help vs. every play style, which will almost always do their job if you play well. While I'm not a seasoned OU veteran, I view this as a hallmark of a broken Pokemon.
Minimal hard counters: M-Latias and Cresselia are what I've heard tossed around as hard counters. That really isn't much... Revenge killing or multiple checks combined with good prediction/play to get your check(s) in safely is a more reliable strategy imo. Having Pursuit-bait as your only counter sucks.
Versatility: 4 Attacks w/ the correct coverage move (HP Ice, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Knock Off, Rock Slide...you get the point) to help support your team, RP to help vs. Offense, CM vs. bulkier teams (I never see this though?).
While strong, it is not over-centralizing: Without Lando-i I don't see balance becoming over-powered. Sure, it is a 1-mon wrecking ball vs. those builds, but there are other ways to beat balanced builds. Heck, there are other 1-mon wrecking crews (Kyu-b, Manaphy, m-Garde).
Raw Power: I think everyone agrees Lando-i has plenty of raw power...right?

I look forward to playing on the ladder and seeing how my opinions/views might change!

After laddering and reading through the thread, I am convinced Lando-i warrants a ban for 3 main reasons.

1. Ease on team-building
The removal of lando-i allowed people to explore new cores for balance/bulky offense that would otherwise get wrecked. I saw multiple examples of this, where previously un-seen cores were utilized. My favorite (and most unique) was a team that ran Uxie + Zygarde. The guy had a 80+ GXE and played the team well. I also saw a re-emergence of VenuTran cores, which is a good thing in my opinion. Overall, the metagame was more diverse as a result of not having to devote 1/3 of your teams to a single mon if you opted for a bulky team, which leads me to my next point.

2. A more diverse (but fair) metagame
During the Aegislash suspect I felt like I was playing the same thing over, and over...and over again because of the centralization Aegislash provided. While I didn't get a chance to share my thoughts in the thread, this was the primary reason I voted to keep Aegislash in Ubers; honestly, it wasn't a fun meta imo. The diversity I saw on this ladder was refreshing. Despite there being a wide array of builds, I didn't find any one to be overpowered or un-beatable (except that sand veil team x_x). I felt as if I had a chance to win almost every game I played in if I made the correct plays. This feeling of looking at a team preview and realizing the game wasn't decided from turn 1 was nice given my previous experiences in the OU tier (late XY + ORAS).

Finally, a point more specific to the Pokemon, not an ancillary effect of its absence.
3. Lando-i is different from other wall breakers.
I've seen multiple people bring up Landorus' similarity to other wall breakers, mainly Kyu-B, TG Manaphy and Mega-Gardevoir. How about Mega-Heracross or Mega-Medi? I haven't really seen them brought up much, despite their obscene wall breaking powers.

I'm sure these points have been brought up a million times already, but I think they're important. Each one of these other Pokemon has an opportunity cost associated with running it:

• Kyu-B is weak to hazards, much slower than Lando-i and takes recoil from LO
• Manaphy requires a turn of setup, which allows the opponent to react. It also doesn't sport that sexy base 101 speed tier. Idc what people say, the difference between 100 and 101 is huge.
• m-Gardevoir, m-Hera and m-Medi require your mega slot, which is a huge opportunity cost. Each also carries a slower speed tier or other issues if used in the OU meta.

Landorus has none of the drawbacks associated with running these pokemon (recoil, hazard weakness, speed tier, setup turn, mega slot).

Furthermore, Landorus-i sports 3 very different sets (AoA, Rock Polish, Calm Mind) which can be challenging to identify from team preview. On top of this, it has a plethora of coverage moves that you can only guess at until you get into the battle and do a bit of scouting. Lando-i is capable of severely punishing any mistake you make in identifying its set.
This is in stark contrast to the other wall breakers.

• If I see a Kyu-B, I expect LO BoltBeam, Earth Power + filler. After 1 turn I know if it something unusual (scarf, AV, sub-lefties/roost, band) and can react accordingly.
• Manaphy can be a bit trickier, but HP fire on a TG set is the major coverage you have to watch out for. Assuming a TG set and then finding out it is something else will generally not get you into too much trouble.
• A similar vein of reasoning applies to all three wall-breaking mega's: Gardevoir tends to have passive, but annoying, filler moves. Everyone knows what they're getting with m-Hera/m-Medi.

Overall, I thought this was a fun meta to play in and will be voting to ban Landorus-i to Ubers.

 

[radianthero156]

i think WCAR's post is in contrast to many of the other ones here because it shows actual metagame experience, instead of "LOL lando-i 6-0s balance AND it learns rp to 6-0 offense ban". and i must agree that this metagame isn't really much different from the landorus one, it's really the same aids. i don't get the main point of most pro-ban posts.

however, the problem about lando is basically the same as greninja's (and even altaria's too): the way their coverage decides a lot of games. lets say your only lando check is av torn-t. that'd be perfectly fine, since av torn-t is a very good mon on its own, and maybe your team doesn't really have space for other lando checks. but what if the opposing lando-i is packing rock slide? then they've just lured and killed your counter, and now they've opened HUGE holes for something like not only the own landorus but other stuff like gengar, np celebi, etc. sure there are other mons who are impressive lures, like thundurus-i, hydreigon, torn-t, gardevoir, etc, but landorus is stronger, harder to wear down and has other advantages over those.

as for landorus-i being able to supposedly balance the metagame by checking other stuff, that is an argument i would accept, since i hate the divershitty this metagame possesses rn. i WOULD, because that WOULD happen if aegislash was in the tier, because then we'd have a pivotal/broken mon being put in check by another pivotal/broken mon, thus making both balanced. however, what does exactly lando-i help balance? it's not really making zard/gard/gross/alt/diancie/whatever less dangerous.

 

[56k]

Earth power does unacceptably too much damage to neutral targets. When dealing with things like garchomp, drill, or lando-t we can expect pokemon like scizor, ferro, and slowbro to comfortably soak up ground attacks in tight situations. Lando-I on the other hand forces a great deal of specialization instead of letting generalist walls switch in and avoid 2hkos.

On it's own, this is fine. Pokemon with similar qualities like kyu-b, char-y, mega-gard, and victini also require very specific counters if defensive oriented teams want to deal with them. What sets lando apart from the rest is no singular X-factor aspect, but an accumulation into a whole that is more than the sum of its parts.

First and foremost is the speed tier. Lando is more powerful than mega-gardevoir and ohkos or revenge kills all the 100s without ever risking a speed tie there. That speed also pays off greatly against pokemon that run questionable speed, like bulky chomps or defensive talonflames, that may only creep up to a certain threat but can't compromise bulk to outspeed lando. With its swiss-army-knife coverage it will at the very least be able to 2hko most anything not designed specifically to counter it. For example, sludgewave alone can 2hko rotom, zapdos, zard-y, and gyarados, preventing any from safely switching in.

Again this is still sort of fine, a pokemon like latios also carries the firepower to 2hko those things and has even more speed.

But here are the small factors (no single one broken in and of itself) that add together into a ridiculous pokemon:

-Doesn't get worn down passively (LO recoil, sand damage, contact against rocky helmets, immune to spikes and tspikes)
-Can't be conventionally paralyzed
-Access to knock off (rare amongst special attackers besides genies) as an always-advantageous middle ground coverage move
-2 immunities, one of which interferes with and deters volt-turn momentum grabs
-Has its own momentum move in u-turn
-Base stats bulk equal to that of mega-sableye
-Can lay hazards
-2 useful and completely different boosting moves
-Survives EVERY banded/LO priority except ice shard
-Essentially unaffected by intimidate and any other field abilities like drizzle or mummy (nothing can weaken it by switching in)
-Unlikely to lose to any trapper (modest scarf goth only a roll with hpice and is knock offed, wob has to guess, pursuiter dont kill)

In the end you have a pokemon that takes hits (252 manaphy only has a roll against naive lando with scald), ridiculous coverage, limited (childishly exploitable) counters, that, together with the above traits, meld into a pokemon that is capable of too much, achieves too much in practice, and blanket checks a huge range of defensive cores with minimal cost and has a 4th move for utilities or specialized coverage.

Building a (slow) team safe from lando involves too many SR weaknesses, too many trapping weaknesses, and too much pressure to ignore other threats such as diancie or pinsir. Lando MUST be prepared for due to how common it is, meaning sneaking a rare threat into a battle against a general stall team yields instant advantage at turn one. Easing the pressure away from earth power absorbers has allowed defenses to be spread out more evenly to fairly take on things like manaphy, geopass, altaria, and bisharp as well as rare niche wallbreakers like band-tei and staraptor. Cores can be a bit healthier and from a defensive standpoint, I enjoyed the suspect ladder.

 

[bludz]

I think the main issue I have with WCAR's post is that it fails to address the fact that Landorus both has the 'lack of counters' AND 'is difficult to wear down.' Yes, Kyurem-Black, Thundurus, Azumarill, etc are also very difficult to counter, but are absolutely worn down much more easily. Also Mega Metagross is definitely worn down more easily by Spikes and any kind of Rough Skin / Iron Barbs recoil, while also having more hard checks and counters. Landorus can fire off attacks far more freely without having to worry about Rocky Helmet Garchomp coming in or being hit by a Prankster Thunder Wave. Roost on some of these pokemon may allow them to increase their longevity but gives a free turn to the opponent as well and definitely lessens the offensive pressure being put on. I admit Landorus has a lot of offensive checks - it isn't Greninja for god's sake - but it's still not dead weight against offense and I feel like its matchup there is somewhat exaggerated by both sides. I would say it is a bit above average against offense just because it can usually take a hit and KO many things back, and while Rock Polish won't always sweep, the threat of it sweeping is often enough to force people to stay in and try to chip at it which often results in a KO.

I think we should also remember that the Suspect Ladder metagame is not necessarily a perfect reflection of what the metagame without Landorus will be like. It is still early on and it hasn't had any time to develop. While it is of course what we are supposed to base some of our reasoning on (because we can't just be theorizing), it is still early on and metagame trends have yet to be fully realized.

 

[brittney♥kitty]

Don't you think that the current ladder is more defensively oriented and passive because Lando is gone? THINK DAMN IT!

Passive teams didn't just sprout up out of the woodwork, they've always had some presence on the ladder. The point is people who use that playstyle are gonna want lando gone if it benefits them.

The rest of your post is nonsense and not worth replying to.

 

[Kurona]

Passive teams didn't just sprout up out of the woodwork, they've always had some presence on the ladder. The point is people who use that playstyle are gonna want lando gone if it benefits them.

The rest of your post is nonsense and not worth replying to.

I mean... if it's making a certain playstyle unplayable, then yeah, people who play it are gonna want it gone.

 

[brittney♥kitty]

I mean... if it's making a certain playstyle unplayable, then yeah, people who play it are gonna want it gone.

Nobody said it made a playstyle unplayable. If a team is too passive to deal with common threats, then it's bad simple as that. Fat Balance and Stall had a big presence on high ladder before the suspect as well, can't really call it unplayable.

 

[p2]

I mean... if it's making a certain playstyle unplayable, then yeah, people who play it are gonna want it gone.

Landorus doesn't make anything unplayable. It puts a big strain on Balance, but so does every other wallbreaker in OU. Balance struggles so much with stuff like KyuB, ZardY, MGardevoir and MHera. Sure Balance can't switch into it easily, but when Landos moves are so easy to exploit due to them having very common immunities, Balance can easily stand a chance. Not to mention, if you do get fucked over by a random coverage move, you should be running at least 2 checks for Lando on Balance anyway, a bunch of Lando checks also overlap in checking other massive threats, so I don't see the problem. It's not overcentralising at all and it's not this one mon god that can destroy any playstyle that everyone makes it out to be.

 

[AM]

Landorus doesn't make anything unplayable. It puts a big strain on Balance, but so does every other wallbreaker in OU. Balance struggles so much with stuff like KyuB, ZardY, MGardevoir and MHera. Sure Balance can't switch into it easily, but when Landos moves are so easy to exploit due to them having very common immunities, Balance can easily stand a chance. Not to mention, if you do get fucked over by a random coverage move, you should be running at least 2 checks for Lando on Balance anyway, a bunch of Lando checks also overlap in checking other massive threats, so I don't see the problem. It's not overcentralising at all and it's not this one mon god that can destroy any playstyle that everyone makes it out to be.

The individual strain that each of these wallbreakers apply is not in the level of landorus what so ever so Im not sure how you came upon assumption that kyuremb and chary is equal to landorus in regards to the teambuilding constraint. Landorus exceeds that and two generel checks is ok in theory but completely changes from a practical standpoint but then again these threads will never actually exemplify that so I guess it becomes an endless argument there. I wouldnt say that landorus is equal to the balance breakers you mentioned cause realistically theyre not for numerous flaws they have and its a false assumption when you take into account each of their traits in how they play in the meta.