Move Equality (Playable) Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation & Sand Tomb are now banned (see post 193)

If I am not mistaken, +1 jolly gatr is still outsped by the 145+ tier. Swords dance is just as powerful and less keen on sweeping, more keen on wall breaking.

Does brick break do more damage on screens broken?

Can we repeal body slam and stomp going unboosted since minimize is banned by default?

The more and more I think about these low power moves with great effects, the more I want to play. SD zard with flame charge dual chop/dclaw and pup/rock smash
 

Martin

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If anyone wants to come onto the sever there is a move equality tournament in about half an hour to get some people into the metagame (and to see if Mega Beedrill is completely borked or not XD). If you want to sign up, do so by signing up here: http://challonge.com/tournaments/signup/xwvPkvHCjD and posting your Showdown username as the participant's name. I'll see any participants on http://perfectpokemonshowdown.psim.us/ at 17:45 BST (12:45 EST)! Use this time to put a team together! If you miss out due to time zone etc., I plan on hyping up the metagame by regularly trying to host tournaments, so don't worry if you miss out :) In the future, I will give more notice. However, I was itching to try out the metagame, so I have given this one a short time to sign up. If there aren't enough participants, I will extend the signup time as necessary.
 
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Martin

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Tournament start time extended by an hour. It will now be at 18:45 BST (13:45 EST). If I do not have enough participants by this time, I will extend it until late afternoon (for me) tomorrow.
 

Martin

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If I am not mistaken, +1 jolly gatr is still outsped by the 145+ tier. Swords dance is just as powerful and less keen on sweeping, more keen on wall breaking.

Does brick break do more damage on screens broken?

Can we repeal body slam and stomp going unboosted since minimize is banned by default?

The more and more I think about these low power moves with great effects, the more I want to play. SD zard with flame charge dual chop/dclaw and pup/rock smash
Sorry forgot to reply to this XD

Brick Break's power does not boost when it breaks screens. The boosts regarding minimize will stay for the sake of consistency.

Anyway, the tournament will be at 17:45 BST tomorrow, as somehow I don't think anyone will be in this one now. This should give people enough time to sign up,
 
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Honestly, I don't see the need to be consistent with bans when the move required to boost these moves is banned. Outside of utility for the 100 bp boost with 30% para chance (which is matched by secret power anyway), and even though it is matched by secret power in a neutral setting, having the sole option to paralyze with body slam despite conditions should be enough of a reason to unban it even though secret power is a close second. Body slam and stomp shouldn't be banned when their damage boost isn't applicable in this meta.
 

Martin

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Honestly, I don't see the need to be consistent with bans when the move required to boost these moves is banned. Outside of utility for the 100 bp boost with 30% para chance (which is matched by secret power anyway), and even though it is matched by secret power in a neutral setting, having the sole option to paralyze with body slam despite conditions should be enough of a reason to unban it even though secret power is a close second. Body slam and stomp shouldn't be banned when their damage boost isn't applicable in this meta.
Consistency is needed as otherwise the entire premise of the exceptions regarding boosts is flawed. If we make exceptions for any move, it becomes inconsistent and the code just becomes unnecessarily complex. I am not making exceptions even if the boost is not applicable in the metagame as I am trying to keep the rules regarding boosts as simple as possible.
 
This meta sounds pretty cool. What're some of the top threats/walls? From what I can tell Mega-Bee, Keldeo and Darm are all powerhouses.
 

Martin

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This meta sounds pretty cool. What're some of the top threats/walls? From what I can tell Mega-Bee, Keldeo and Darm are all powerhouses.
The meta is still very new, so there is a lot of experimentation to be done. However, from what I can tell, the key threats you need to prepare for are Talonflame, Beedrill, Keldeo and anything with Rapid Spin.
 
The meta is still very new, so there is a lot of experimentation to be done. However, from what I can tell, the key threats you need to prepare for are Talonflame, Beedrill, Keldeo and anything with Rapid Spin.
Ah, right. Talonflame must be pretty powerful. Any good walls in the meta?
 

Martin

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Ah, right. Talonflame must be pretty powerful. Any good walls in the meta?
Walling isn't easy, but I'd say Skarm is pretty damn good for hard-walling Beedrill. Also, Heatran and any Rock-type other than Diancie (or Carbink lol) acts as a good stop to Talonflame. For Keldeo, you best bet is probably Mega Venusaur due to typing+Thick Fat (although its kinda disappointing that it gets neither Absorb or Mega Drain).

Something I've wanted to discuss for a while is weather in this metagame. With stuff like Venusaur getting boosts to their main attacking moves which improve the overall effectiveness of sun, as well as the further boost to the other weather playstyles, how does everyone think that the new mechanics will affect weather in the format? This will be a main point of discussion until whenever, but don't feel tied down to it :)
 
Sand Rush drill would be great, as Tyranitar is a decent check/wall for non-mixed Talonflame. Iron Head and Spin, rock tomb. He can do the dirty with any standard sand rush set
 

Martin

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Sand Rush drill would be great, as Tyranitar is a decent check/wall for non-mixed Talonflame. Iron Head and Spin, rock tomb. He can do the dirty with any standard sand rush set
Scarf with Mold Breaker is also a legitimate option, allowing it to lock itself into Earthquake (because its ground-type movepool SUCKS ASS outside of EQ, with Bulldoze still being measly as f*ck) without worrying about levitators, as well as no longer being setup fodder when locked into spin due to its solid BP.
 

Martin

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Yeah. Calling off the tournament. Noone signed up so I'm going to assume noone will. I'll try and sort out a better time or signup method or something.
 
Thunder, Hurricane, Whirlpool, Smack Down and Sky Uppercut don't change their base power in any circumstances, so remove them from the list. Not like Thunder, Hurricane or Sky Uppercut are going to be any useful regardless.

An underrated beast.

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 248 Atk/224 Speed/38 Def
Jolly Nature
-Rock Tomb
-Aerial Ace
-Rock Smash
-Roost/Ice Fang

Aerodactyl has always had a wide movepool, but very few of these moves actually had high base power. Now, every move in its arsenal gets 100 base power, which makes it a very threatening Pokémon to face. The increase in power is very noticeable, as now Aerial Ace can 2HKO the likes of Ferrothorn and Mega Sableye with Aerial Ace. Rock Smash is a very good coverage move, as it hits hard the likes of Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Mega Gyarados. If your team has problems with bulky Ground types, Ice Fang can be used to lure and 2HKO/OHKO them, otherwise Roost is a superior option to keep Aerodactyl healthy, as it can check big threats such as Beedrill and Talonflame. The given speed EVs allows Aerodactyl to outspeed and OHKO after rocks +1 Jolly Gyarados(another Pokémon that improves greatly with the additional strenght on its STABs and coverage) and everything below, including Mega Beedrill.

Pangoro is another mon that deserves a mention. Notably, it gets Storm Throw which is essentially a 150 base power move with no drawbacks, thanks to the fact it always crits( 252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable on a critical hit: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) ; 252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T on a critical hit: 153-180 (40 - 47.1%) ). For the maximum results, you should run Scrappy in order to prevent Ghost types from ruining your parade of destruction, Knock Off is as good as ever on him, obviously, despite being unchanged.

Covet is another interesting move; it's like a Normal type Knock Off, but with consistent power, which means it gets boosted to 100 base power in this metagame. Unfortunately, the only viable Pokémon with STAB on the move are Mega Lopunny and Snorlax. Other Pokémon still prefer Knock Off because of the additional coverage, and even if they don't have Knock Off, they would rather not waste a precious moveslot on a Normal type move, even with such a good utility. Rage Mega Altaria is very interesting as a Moxie-esque sweeper.
 

Martin

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Thunder, Hurricane, Whirlpool, Smack Down and Sky Uppercut don't change their base power in any circumstances, so remove them from the list. Not like Thunder, Hurricane or Sky Uppercut are going to be any useful regardless.
They're boosted to double power when used against a flying, bouncing or sky-dropping 'mon.
 

Martin

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The rest are true, but Sky Uppercut deals consistent damage (according to Bulbapedia). But I have my doubts people will REALLY use it either way.
My bad. I will remove it from the list. Thanks for pointing it out, as I wouldn't have caught it otherwise. Also yeah noone will use it, but i want this to be as consistent as possible regarding unchanged moves, so that is necessary - regardless of whether people will use it.
 
So I thought of Yanmega...
Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Protect
-Bug Buzz
-Air Slash
-HP Ground/Giga Drain

Now with an improved Air Slash, this can potentially be a terrific late game cleaner. Its coverage of Bug Buzz, Air Slash, and HP Ground (or Giga Drain) scores a clean 2HKO on every Pokemon in OU except Chansey/Blissey, special walls like Porygon2 and Zapdos.
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 226-268 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 191-226 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 199-234 (66.1 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 187-221 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Another good one to mention is Mega Sharpedo. Similar to the aforementioned Mega Blastoise, it gets 100-base power Crunch, Waterfall, and Ice Fang, along with Strong Jaw. Strong Jaw Crunch amounts to spamming STAB Giga Impact every turn. It can even get 2HKOs on Keldeo and Mega Lopunny:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 155-183 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 148-175 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Martin

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So I thought of Yanmega...
Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Protect
-Bug Buzz
-Air Slash
-HP Ground/Giga Drain

Now with an improved Air Slash, this can potentially be a terrific late game cleaner. Its coverage of Bug Buzz, Air Slash, and HP Ground (or Giga Drain) scores a clean 2HKO on every Pokemon in OU except Chansey/Blissey, special walls like Porygon2 and Zapdos.
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 226-268 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 191-226 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 199-234 (66.1 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 187-221 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Another good one to mention is Mega Sharpedo. Similar to the aforementioned Mega Blastoise, it gets 100-base power Crunch, Waterfall, and Ice Fang, along with Strong Jaw. Strong Jaw Crunch amounts to spamming STAB Giga Impact every turn. It can even get 2HKOs on Keldeo and Mega Lopunny:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 155-183 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 148-175 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Yanmega, I am really interested in Tinted Lens. A STAB base 100 attack that hits through subs and is only resisted by 4x resistant 'mons is scary. Its just questionable whether or not its speed tier will be good enough to warrant its use. Also, what does Giga Drain hit outside of Jellicent though? Just out of interest :) I say this because Swampert and Quaggy are 2HKO'd by Bug Buzz already and Rhyperior probably won't be that relevant in this meta due to it only really benefitting from Rock Slide. (252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 305-360 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, 252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 199-235 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Also yeah. Mega Sharpedo is a monster; the only real downside to using it is that you can't use Mega Beedrill XD. However, I think that Scald will probably be used more than Waterfall because it hits physical walls harder (and Waterfall doesn't make up for that with Strong Jaw).
 
Honestly it still bothers me that bug is normally effective against rock and ground. What are some other bug threats besides tail glow volbeat? (also I am aware that Beedrill is a threat)
 

Martin

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Honestly it still bothers me that bug is normally effective against rock and ground. What are some other bug threats besides tail glow volbeat? (also I am aware that Beedrill is a threat)
scizor has been heavily buffed, with a 100 BP U-Turn and Power Up Punch/Rock Smash. Heracross now gets to run Arm Thrust over Close Combat, although it does miss having a 125 BP Bug-type STAB. Other than that, bug has never been a big type in OU tbh.
 
scizor has been heavily buffed, with a 100 BP U-Turn and Power Up Punch/Rock Smash. Heracross now gets to run Arm Thrust over Close Combat, although it does miss having a 125 BP Bug-type STAB. Other than that, bug has never been a big type in OU tbh.
I dunno, I would probably still go with CC over Arm Thrust just so Hera doesn't impale itself on Ferrothorn.

Or I would just not use it, because it got a pretty significant nerf.
 
What are some other bug threats besides tail glow volbeat? (also I am aware that Beedrill is a threat)
Meet this guy.

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Trait: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
Jolly Nature
-Secret Power/Headbutt
-Quick Attack
-Swords Dance
-Storm Throw

As I already mentioned when talking about Pangoro, Storm Throw is effectively a 150 base power move, so it hits very hard even without STAB. Notably, the power increase over Close Combat lets Pinsir OHKO Rotom-W at +2, doing a lot more damage to Skarmory at +2, reliably OHKOing with Storm Throw+Quick Attack offensive checks such as Mega Diancie, Mega Aero, Raikou and Mega Manectric after rocks, and avoiding defense drops.

Btw I screwed up with my previous post, Covet isn't like Knock Off, but like Thief, meaning it should be never used over Secret Power or Headbutt on Mega Lopunny(or likely any Pokémon for that matter).
I dunno, I would probably still go with CC over Arm Thrust just so Hera doesn't impale itself on Ferrothorn.

Or I would just not use it, because it got a pretty significant nerf.
Close Combat is plain bad when Rock Smash is aviable on Hera :/
 

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