Metagame np: Stage 2 - Teardrop - Victreebel Banned

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Yeah I definitely agree with you Magnemite the only reason I post them is for the simpler facts you get from them, like the simple lack of power you can see or lack of speed and how it hurts it in some places. These teams definitely aren't competitive, but they still show some of the simple facts that make weepinbell not work as well as victreebel

With that said, I that i can confidently say that we should ban Victreebel because no other sun sweeper can do the job as painfully as victreebel can, and i think banning victreebel would solve all of the problem.
 
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Ok, so i decided to test sun without victreebel and instead use Weepinbell and also used tangela in some of the replays.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247781277
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247779541
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247784154
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247789180
will add more

Weepinbell works decently as a replacement for Victreebel. Doesn't make sun as great as it was before since it's a whole lot weaker and more frail.

it doesn't beat teams as easily without the use of Victreebel as seen in the replays.

vs sticky web the mons were pretty slow so they ended up being enable to outspeed the mons on the other team. For example modest Tangela at -1 speed with Hp fire is outsped by timid Ninetails and so is modest weepinbell.

vs regular balance it does well but isn't like it absolutely destroys it like it did with Victreebel.

It's safe to say that the tier would be fine without Victreebel. Other abuser of sun have more reasonable checks so sun as a playstyle will be fine.

Also, Fuck Megazard for cteaming me TWICE
 
Natural Talent said:
Ok, so i decided to test sun without victreebel and instead use Weepinbell and also used tangela in some of the replays.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247781277
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247779541
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247784154
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247789180
will add more

Weepinbell works decently as a replacement for Victreebel. Doesn't make sun as great as it was before since it's a whole lot weaker and more frail.

it doesn't beat teams as easily without the use of Victreebel as seen in the replays.

vs sticky web the mons were pretty slow so they ended up being enable to outspeed the mons on the other team. For example modest Tangela at -1 speed with Hp fire is outsped by timid Ninetails and so is modest weepinbell.

vs regular balance it does well but isn't like it absolutely destroys it like it did with Victreebel.

It's safe to say that the tier would be fine without Victreebel. Other abuser of sun have more reasonable checks so sun as a playstyle will be fine.

Also, Fuck Megazard for cteaming me TWICE
Click to expand...


What if you ran something good over LO tangela+LO weepinbell which don't really need to go together at all? Like buck?
 
Megazard said:
What if you ran something good over LO tangela+LO weepinbell which don't really need to go together at all? Like buck?
Click to expand...
yea most definitely. I have many variations that i'll have to test when i get time (in like an hour or 2). my overall objective was testing out how they do vs teams of good players.
 
Alright, the Sun suspect test is over, and the voting phase has begun. Voters will have 48 hours to PM me their votes. See Alt ID thread for details.
 
Code: 
raw votes
vote 1: (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)
vote 2: (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Sunny Day) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Do Not Ban)
vote 3: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)
vote 4: (Ban Victreebel) (Do Not Ban) (none) (none) (none)
vote 5: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)
vote 6: (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)
vote 7: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Heat Rock) (Do Not Ban) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day)
vote 8: (Ban Victreebel) (none) (none) (none) (none)
vote 9: (Ban Heat Rock) (none) (none) (none) (none)
vote 10: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Heat Rock) (Do Not Ban) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day)
vote 11: (Ban Heat Rock) (none) (none) (none) (none)
vote 12: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)
round 1 votes
vote 1: (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)
vote 2: (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Sunny Day) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Do Not Ban)
vote 3: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)
vote 4: (Ban Victreebel) (Do Not Ban)
vote 5: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)
vote 6: (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)
vote 7: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Heat Rock) (Do Not Ban) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day)
vote 8: (Ban Victreebel)
vote 9: (Ban Heat Rock)
vote 10: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Heat Rock) (Do Not Ban) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day)
vote 11: (Ban Heat Rock)
vote 12: (Ban Victreebel) (Ban Heat Rock) (Ban Chlorophyll) (Ban Sunny Day) (Do Not Ban)

total live votes=12
Do Not Ban=0 Ban Sunny Day=0 Ban Heat Rock=5 Ban Victreebel=7 Ban Chlorophyll=0
the winner is Ban Victreebel

Victreebel is banned from PU! The Immortal please implement this when possible! Thank you to everyone who voted and/or contributed to the discussion. Sun was a difficult subject matter to look at, but I think we chose the best option.
 
weepinbell can do what victreebel does but isn't broken; it's the next best thing on sun teams. tbh sun can just run onix/weepinbell/volbeat/chlorophyll/fire-type/filler; it remains to be seen where that will be balanced or still broken; banning chlorophyll had merit :pirate:
 
so did banning heat rock, trc ;_;
well it'll be interesting to see the meta after shifts for shore, will try playing more soon !_!
 
The most underrated item right now? Safety Goggles.

Jumpluff always annoyed me, because while it had a set of hard counters, these counters could be slept, and then the opponent could switch out to a pokemon that handles them, making you lose momentum in the process.

However, Safety Goggles protects you from all powder moves, including Stun Spore, letting you have a reliable switch-in to the annoying Puffball, as well as letting Arbok and Probopass switch into Tangela and Roselia safely.

Sample Sets:

Probopass @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Wave
- Power Gem
- Earth Power

Arbok @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch
- Aqua Tail

Avalugg @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Avalanche
- Earthquake
 
Hello guys! I've been quite vocal recently on Skype about banning two things in PU: Knock Off, and Stealth Rock. Because of support from some people and the opinions I have, I would like to share my opinion on Stealth Rock in PU and why I believe it should be suspect tested, or put down to a council vote, but at least considered in terms of changing in PU. This is just a debate topic and not a demand or anything of the like, but I would like to see where everyone stands on this controversial topic and whether we can be the first tier to make a monumental decision in terms of competitive Pokemon. I would like everyone reading my post and involved in this discussion to have an open mind, because the worst thing is having your suggestions shot down for fear of change, and not legitimate arguments.

I think that Stealth Rock is an incredibly limiting move in PU that we allow simply because we are accustomed to it. It is no secret it is an overcentralising move; it is on every competitive team, even though it is never strictly necessary, because no team has a reason not to run it, and will be at a disadvantage against other teams with Stealth Rock due to their Pokemon dying faster than their opponents. The main general reason I think Stealth Rock is broken is because my personal philosophy is that skill in competitive Pokemon is split into two parts: teambuilding and preparation, and in-game play. A key part of in-game play is switching, while is my opinion the area where the best players succeed the most. Sometimes the only way to pull yourself out of a situation is to outplay your opponent, but the presence of Stealth Rock hinders intelligent switching in order to outplay your opponent. Of course, this is all blah blah general crap. What differs PU for me from other tiers, is the lack of hazard removal options. Most Pokemon in PU with hazard removing moves are weak to Stealth Rock themselves, meaning they tend to be under extreme pressure in a game and can often die prematurely. The few that aren't are either very exploitable and practically useless (Vibrava, Wartortle) or have big issues stat-wise (Tentacool, Staryu).

The real reason that I want everyone to consider in terms of banning Stealth Rock is that I think that tiering and what we should ban is for the purpose of achieving a better metagame. This is a subjective notion, because we can't define what is more fun to anyone, which is why I want to hear the opinions of PU players on whether it is more fun or not to play with or without Stealth Rock.

My reason for isolation Stealth Rock from other hazards is because with a ban on Stealth Rock, a number of actually worthwhile hazard removers become very viable in that role (Swanna, Articuno, Pelipper, for example), and a lot of them are immune to ground-based hazards. As much as this might seem like I just want to pick and choose what is viable, it is without a doubt that a number of Pokemon will become viable or more viable with the removal of Stealth Rock, leading to more diversity in teambuilding and also the ability to use more Pokemon to counter certain threats, as Pokemon like Articuno have very legitimate defensive uses without Stealth Rock present.

I just want to mention a couple of counterarguments that I don't think are valid in this debate. The first is that of Pokemon becoming broken without Stealth Rock being able to check them, for two reasons. 1) This cannot be proven to be true without proper testing, as it is a natural instinct for people to get too ban-happy before testing. Things like Rotom-F will be very good, but whether they are broken is yet to be determined. 2) We shouldn't justify not banning something based on the premise of it unstitching more broken things in the metagame, as that is not how tiering works. Another counterargument is that it becomes too difficult to break defensive teams, which I also think is untrue, because stallbreakers such as SubToxic Articuno, Simisear, and Heatmor become much better, and easier to fit on teams. Teams can still employ Spikes, Toxic Spikes, or lure methods to beat stall teams, and I personally think no team will be impossible to beat stall if it is well-built in a Stealth Rock-less metagame.

We should at least have a minitour after galbia's no Knock Off one. It is a very legitimate issue that I think would make the metagame far better; a lot of Pokemon gain from this change but no Pokemon really lose, as no Stealth Rock users are used solely for providing Stealth Rock in PU, things like Golem come close but all have definite defensive or offensive advantages. Pleas be open-minded :)
 
I'm not a PU player so sorry of lack of knowledge in the post, but this seems like a good idea to put in a suspect, as PU does seem to differ with lacking "good" spinners and defog users. What I think largely determines the power of Stealth Rock in a given tier is how the match-up of the rock setters is against the rock removers. I assume the best setters of the tier (Piloswine, rock types like Golem and Barbaracle, etc) do match-up well against most of the best rapid spinners and the defog users of the tier but this particular match-up is a matter worth discussing imo, regarding the suspect of stealth rocks. Offensive Pelipper, for example, will seem at the least on paper as fast enough defogger, who is able to switch-in on setters as they lay the rocks and beat them.
252+ SpA Life Orb Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 390-460 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
 
I agree that regardless of what our individual opinions are, it would be very cool to see a non-SR minitour or at least some form of exploration. The prospect of a non-SR metagame is quite momentous and has a lot to be fleshed out.

However, I'd like to bring up some potential personal (i.e. it is my opinion) issues with an SR-less metagame.

Firstly, SR is so common and prevalent that it is essentially accepted almost as rigidly as a battle mechanic that switching will incur a damage penalty regardless of whether or not you switch in on an attack. Now, I understand trc is of the opinion that the lack of SR enables more intelligent switching, but I think the assumption of passive damage when switching actually adds on another level of intelligent gameplay that would be impossible to recoup without SR. There's so much clever play that goes into forcing the opponent to take just enough hazard damage that they are susceptible to being one- or two-hit KO'd by certain attacks. Similarly, there's a lot of thought that goes into avoiding taking that sort of damage yourself, and while it DOES restrict your choices at times, it's playing around those restrictions that requires so much skill sometimes.

Another related facet that I highly enjoy with SR is that it effectively puts a timer on every Pokemon without recovery regardless of how they time their switches. This becomes especially apparent near the end of matches, when staying in vs. switching out and taking hazard damage becomes an incredibly real scenario, as well as staying in and potentially being reduced to an HP where you can no longer switch out. While this may also be seen as restrictive, I once again feel that playing around this restriction adds on a very fascinating level of gameplay that I could see myself missing.

I don't think this was implied in trc's post, but it's extremely unlikely that Spikes will create the same effect if SR is banned. Spikes has far lower distribution, and, looking at the Pokemon that carry it, is harder to fit onto many offensive teams. It also may be far less effective, depending on how likely the newly empowered Flying-types carry Defog. So I don't think many of the lost benefits from banning SR could be replaced easily.

I would be excited to see, however, what an SR-less PU would look like. Just glancing at the viability rankings, almost half of B+ is weak to SR, and over half of B is weak to it. I haven't played PU in a while, but if those viability rankings are accurate, that's a lot of Pokemon just waiting for something to push them into the realm of ubiquitous usage!
 
I am a-ok regarding making a tour to test things such as a Knock Off- and Stealth Rock-less meta. I'll just post my opinion about Stealth Rock, as a Knock Off-less metagame just looks meh to me and I don't think it will translate to reality. Even though I'd like to see a tour to taste the ground of these changes, I still remain of the opinion that we should act carefully about things of such an important matter and not rush things, also because I don't think Stealth Rock are ''killing'' our metagame at the moment.

I would say our metagame pre-this next tiershift is pretty balanced apart from playstyles such as stall that are kind of unviable(tbh semi-stall is decent), and there are no particular threats nothing can keep in check, while Stealth Rock also help keeping some in check themselves. So, I never saw Stealth Rock as a major problem since I started playing, instead, I always saw it as a way to improve the quality of the gameplay and gameplan. Stealth Rock give a reward / an actual advantage to the player that manages to set them up, putting taxes on the opponent's switches, thus it forces people to play wisely and use their brain to gain the advantage themselves or finding a way to reset it or prevent the opponent from gaining it.

It may look like Stealth Rock are more unhealthy in PU than other tiers, as we lack good Defog or Rapid Spin users that aren't weak to Stealth Rock itself(even though Vibrava is actually good and I found Wartortle borderline useful the times I tried them), but in a tier like PU, this forces the players to play even smartly around Stealth Rock and entry hazard's advantages in general, also allowing them to capitalize on things such as gain of momentum. Also PU carries a bunch of ways to prevent the opponent from setting entry hazard up, such as Anti-Leads and Taunt users such as Misdreavus, as all the setters are kind of slow and get decimated by moves such as Bullet Seed by Torterra, and it's not like if you carry things such as Pelipper you are playing 5v6, it still manages to Defog entry hazards away most times, if played well, even though it can be pressured.
 
A metagame without Stealth Rock looks like a fun idea so i wouldn't oppose to some mini tours without it but it is not something i would really consider for a suspect test at the moment at all.
The fact that it balances such strong and hard to deal with offensive types such as Fire, Ice and Flying is definitely one of the major reasons because it exists at all in the game as a sort of balancing factor and the fact that it punishes stupid strong choiced attackers from continuously coming in and out unescathed as well as ridiculously stupid moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch from being effortlessly spammed is one of the main reasons it is a staple in this game that simply can't be removed without causing a slippery slope and need for other bans that we would have to make to balance everything now (and no, this is not ideal whatsoever come on). Pokemon that gets stripped 25% every time they come in on rocks are still viable and all that without the need of boosting them. In addition to this there is the whole strategic value CyclicCompound mentioned.
Answering the no removers argument i'd say that between Pelipper, Swanna, Vibrava, and Vullaby for Defog as well as Armaldo, Torkoal and Avalugg (Wartortle) that can spin pretty much freely for a majority of the games (looking at PUPL the number of Spinblockers is around 20% so roughly 4/5 of the teams can't stop Rapid Spin reliably) PU isn't that bad especially considering that pretty much all the SR users share weaknesses to types such as Water, Ice, and Grass making them stopped quite easily by well prepared offensive teams. You should also know how good BW NU was even if it had considerably less Rapid Spin users than this tier at the moment lol.
 
Minitours are fun and all but honestly PU isn't incredibly different than, say, OU or UU where rocks/knock off are also an issue and are ubiquitous/centralizing etc. This is honestly something that one tier shouldn't take initiative into if we're talking about SERIOUSLY SUSPECTING said moves. This would be much more appropriate as a decision regarding knock off/SR across tiers to at least see official tiers' stance on said moves. Although defoggers mostly suck in PU and there are no megas meaning all of these moves are incredibly potent, this isn't wayyyy too different from other tiers and there really isn't precedent for something like this.
 
galbia said:
A metagame without Stealth Rock looks like a fun idea so i wouldn't oppose to some mini tours without it but it is not something i would really consider for a suspect test at the moment at all.
The fact that it balances such strong and hard to deal with offensive types such as Fire, Ice and Flying is definitely one of the major reasons because it exists at all in the game as a sort of balancing factor and the fact that it punishes stupid strong choiced attackers from continuously coming in and out unescathed as well as ridiculously stupid moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch from being effortlessly spammed is one of the main reasons it is a staple in this game that simply can't be removed without causing a slippery slope and need for other bans that we would have to make to balance everything now (and no, this is not ideal whatsoever come on). Pokemon that gets stripped 25% every time they come in on rocks are still viable and all that without the need of boosting them. In addition to this there is the whole strategic value CyclicCompound mentioned.
Answering the no removers argument i'd say that between Pelipper, Swanna, Vibrava, and Vullaby for Defog as well as Armaldo, Torkoal and Avalugg (Wartortle) that can spin pretty much freely for a majority of the games (looking at PUPL the number of Spinblockers is around 20% so roughly 4/5 of the teams can't stop Rapid Spin reliably) PU isn't that bad especially considering that pretty much all the SR users share weaknesses to types such as Water, Ice, and Grass making them stopped quite easily by well prepared offensive teams. You should also know how good BW NU was even if it had considerably less Rapid Spin users than this tier at the moment lol.
Click to expand...
I agree with most of this, I just want to point out that not running a ghost type or defiant user doesn't mean you can't prevent a spin at all. Even when I'm running Dwebble or Leavanny as suicide leads just for hazards, I won't run a spinblocker most of the time because of how easy it is for offensive teams to prevent hazard removal for the most part. Not only are hazard removers few in numbers, but it's not the hardest thing ever to prevent removal for an entire game. That being said, SRless does look fun but not a suspect worthy idea, as I do agree with the rest of what you said.
 
What trc said is definitely interesting, and although many tiers have thought about banning, nothing seems to happen. However, PU is pretty different to other tiers due to several important factors: firstly terrible hazard removal, this has been addressed on a lot as of the defog/spin users only really pelipper imo would be anywhere close to as good aas it was without defog. Secondly, the setters are also amazing; I see 8 stealth rock setters in A-rank, and without rocks non would drop much in viability (I mean drop directly - not like torterra getting worse due to more fire types), most like the extra moveslot (toxic torterra/extra utility on clef/hp ice or twave probo). Lastly, stealth rock is so amazing due to the nature of tier. Being a lower tier we not only get pokemon that are vulnerable to hazards, making them lowly used, but also the higher tiers take a lot of the good removers - whereas there are enough srocks setters for us to have decent setters. Im still not certain on whether I think a suspect would be best, but regarding what trc said in his last paragraphs, i agree that its not like any pokes/play styles will be broken (we can always ban more i guess), but i dont think we could accurately have 'proper testing'. Its all nice having a minitour or challenging each other to non rocks games, but that isnt enough to accurately represent the metagame which is a big reason why im uncertain.

TBH I feel like a suspect on spikes would be more appropriate. It isnt centralising to the extent stealth rock is, so there isnt a completely different metagame if we ban spikes that we have to judge beforehand whether it would be better or not. There is obviously a few issues with this. firstly if spikes are actually broken, and i think that its the combination of spikes and stealth rocks that makes stealth rocks so threatening and seemingly broken; it along with roselia being the (arguably) best mon in the tier makes me almost always resort to using a hazard remover, and it is much easier to make a non rocks weak than a non spikes weak team (additionally flying types that dgaf about spikes hate stealth rock). Secondly, would this fix our 'problem'? Personally I think it might help more than some people might originally think. This, again, is to do with roselia being amazing and i personally think about roselia/spikes a lot when building (as much as stealth rock). Lastly, why not suspect roselia? This is less relevant now than if we feel spikes/rose is broken, and currently i dont really have a response as it its not like quilladin and galbias fav mon (dwebble) will become amazing. The lack of testing is still annoying for this.

I know this has had a lot less focus than stealth rock, but i completely disagree with a knock off ban/suspect. I personally dont think it is unhealthy for the tier and could be arguable due to the amount of nfe's in the tier (read this para fully before judging). Im not saying that any NFE would be broken in a knock off-less tier, but it certainly makes them much more easier to deal with (especcially in playing against rose - which spikes like i have mentioned, are problematic for the tier). However the main reason i dont think we should not ban it, is because it isnt in fact broken. You may say we dont really have many knock off absorbers, but that honestly reflects more on our dark resists imo. When people feel the need to run poliwrath as a knock off abosrber, they actually run it as a pawniard counter. There are 5 offensive knock off users in a-rank, and poliwrath only switches into one of them which also happens to be the biggest perpetrator. Knock off is not broken on the other 4 (im not arguing that the move has to be broken on every user to ban fyi), it is rather used to let them beat/cripple their checks. Pawniard is a bigger problem due to it having a few counters (wrath/tort/phdef stun and tang come to mind), and although you might argue that knock off is a reason for this, then remember often a move will make a specific pokemon broken (eg swords dance on scyther), or much harder to counter (surf simipour isnt nearly as threatening as hydro pump).

A knock off ban would just nerf pawniard, as that is by far the mon that gains most out of knock and other mons would find other ways to get passed their counters (gunk shot simipour for example)
 
So, we lost the lord that is Wrath, and Carracosta, Torterra, and pawniard, but at least we didn't get the short end of the stick. We got some Combusken KFC.
 
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