If you are running a positive speed nature, then Scarf Hoopa-U will outspeed Mega Lopunny
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
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If you are running a positive speed nature, then Scarf Hoopa-U will outspeed Mega Lopunny
didnt see the typo lol edited it..... to extend on this point thou bug fits even more than ghost hitting dark grass and psychic as oppose to ghost which hits only ghost and psychic...while jirachi would wall mega alakazam if it doesnt have sball but its not like sball was doing alot anyway 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and ill edit that about lop
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I've actually been thinking of using Drain Punch on Hoopa-U as a Chansey counter. A+ is probably best as to where it should go, S- wouldn't be bad though. As KidMagic said, it can decimate it's counters easily with it's terrifying coverage. (Mega Altaria was mentioned, Gunk Shot kills with some investment.) All of it's viable sets work well (in most cases).
If you read the post you would have noticed I was talking about hoopa u scarf set and how gamer said that hyperspace is the most spammable move in the meta and I was pointing out that if its locked in something like keldeo or mega alt can come in and either set up and sweep or hit something hard killing ALL momentum (why hoopa u scarf set is overrated because its stabs have many common resist)http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-252681108 another battle where hoopa u is useless against ho.... and manaphy stops bd azumarill
I like how you just ignored how hoopa u was useless and yes I understand this... thats why manaphy stopped azumarill.... so lets say that scarf hoopa u goes in on manaphy and knocks it off and manaphy dies... then mega ttar goes in ddances and wins or at least gains major momentum, again ty for proving my point....
First of all I've got to say that I fully support hoopa-u for A+ rank, this thing is a monster and can destroy walls with ease. It's ridiculous offensive stats paired with a great coverage makes fat balance and stall piss their pants. Of course hoopa-u has it's drawbacks, mediocre speed and no physical defense as well as the typing that provides literally 0 resistances makes it really hard to build around. Personally I think it works best with slow u-turners, especially bulky mega scizor. I don't agree that it is a liability against offense. Granted it's not good against offense but I think it usually can get at least 1 kill even against that team archetype. I will use the provided replay as an example, when thundurus kills manaphy hoopa should get a free switch and practically click ice punch and get a kill, because there is nothing that thundurus run that could ohko it. In this scenario hoopa-u dies but kills 1 mon, which is pretty good considering the fact that it isn't it's job to do work against offense. In conclusion I think hoopa is a very solid mon that deserves at least A+ rank, people just need to adapt and find the best ways to make use of it's enormous attacking stats and pretty good bulk on special side.
No I do get that but none of the watertypes that you mentioned have the wallbreaking abiltiies like manaphy AND can beat one of HOS biggest threats,also a EXAMPLE of why hoopa u shouldn't be in the same rank as manaphy, ive shown two replays of hoopa u being dogshit against ho and no one has yet to shown one that proves otherwise......I just dont see a mon thats dogshit against the top playstyle being A+ rank..... a pure wallbreaker IMHO shouldn't be in the same category against mons that are great against all types of teams no matter how well it breaks
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Just saying he isn't exactly off calling it easy to spam simply because there aren't very much dark resists in the first place, that is kinda what makes Bisharp so good right now. Aside that I think any scarfer is bound to necessarily have issue with the possibility of having momentum stolen the important thing, however, is it is able to outspeed key tiers and revenge.
The point of scarf set at least is it gives Hoopa-U some additional versatility and a weapon against offensive teams, it doesn't need to be the best set (much like Kyu-B also can run Scarf it isn't the best but it is viable). Which is more or less the point for Hoopa-U in being somewhat usable against offensive teams.
That aside I think one other thing you neglect about Hoopa-U is that it has a fairly good SpD stat and it is not as if all offensive teams run only physical attackers so. From experience at least if you need a clutch revenge killer or the like against a mon oriented towards Special attacks Hoopa-U DOES have some use in that respect, at least in taking on things like Gengar/Raikou/Lati@s since it can live to tell the tale at least -- and its bound to take something out since nothing wants to take a hit from it.
I actually think AV is its best set Im more than aware of its special d but manaphy also takes everything that hoopa u takes (besides things like raikou) without the 4k weakness also to Kidmagic I was MORE than against manaphy going to S when it was up for the nom so dont even act like IM the one who's showing the favoritism, and the first replay was mine the second is from the tour im in (maybe we can stop the personal attacks and actually talk about ou?)..... Hoopa u hits like a truck but in actual battle its just hard to get a solid switch in. Scarf if anything could be even more of a liability against ho teams because its dual stabs while they dont have a large NUMBER of resist, the resist that they have are EXTREMELY common in this meta and hoopa u is not as fast to outspeed alot of things after a ddance so it becomes a set up folder to things like mega alt if its stuck in hyperspace.....It deserves to be in A rank with all the other mons that aren't solid against all types of teams,what makes bisharp a beast rn is that its a OFFENSIVE meta and priory is at a high demand rn(another reason why hoopa u should be a rank)and steel/dark is great typing
And to everyone who says im wrong post a replay and show me
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Look, Manaphy is not good against HO, yes it can burn with scald and outspeed Lando-T/Tankchomp and kill it, but it is beat by ao much and HO even have a few switchins (obviously not failsafe, but somewhat reliable) to stop the Lando/Chomp being killed. Manaphy is a little better V HO than non scarf Hoopa-U, but they are both 'dogshit', to use your term, V it. Source: I play HO and the most Mana has ever done V my HO teams has been kill something/burn something, and there was only 1 time (at least that I remember) it made a difference to the outcome. I'm not disagreeing with you on Hoopa in A rank, but Mana is not as good V offense as you're making out.
I don't have a strong opinion on Hoopa-U, but being mostly a deadweight V HO means it should be A+ max. I also think it shouldn't drop below Cube, as Hoopa-U is far better at wallbreaking, but sucks V offense while Cube can put in work V some offense builds, due to better bulk, speed tier and having resitances + roost. Obviously comparing them isn't great as they're in no way interchangable, but as wallbreakers I find them mostly equal in viability terms.
E @ below: Mana is not 'quality' against HO, and while not a liability, you are making it sound like it does well V HO when it gets OHKOed/2HKOed by alot of HO mons. Also, I'm not theorymonning, what's there to theorymon when you've played countless games V mana with a HO team? Yes 'dogshit' may be exaggurated but so is 'quality' when describing Mana V HO. It can't really setup a TG against it and is super weak without, although the burn spreading is annoying is Raikou/MMan really that bothered by a burn? If I wasn't on my phone I'd have a replay of Mana dying after doing nothing notable V HO to show you.
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I never said manaphy was good against ho all I have done was compare it to hoopa u.... manaphy is quality against ho however and is by no means dogshit, anything with manaphys bulk typing and ability to fire off scalds will never be dogshit against ho, of course its a wallbreaker but it will never be a LIABILITY in any battle unlike hoopa u, which is a huuge hit or miss pokemon and requires a decent amount of support just to be able to be switched in.... as wallbreakers they are equal but manaphy puts in a better full body of work overall which is why it should be a sub rank higher than hoopa u, anyway this will be my last post considering everyone is theorymonning at this point and no one has posted replays, if someone post a replay showing manaphy as "dogshit" or hoopa u as even clos to being useful vs ho against a halfway decent player than ill reconsider but I haven't see it
they aren't equal as wallbreakers, manaphy need one turn to set-up, the coverage will never be perfect and still walled by things like chansey, blissey, av slowking, av goodra, unaware clefable and other fat mons. hoopa-u can 2ko or ko every defensive mon bar mandibuzz and defensive mega scizor using the right ev's spread, also you can run t-bolt or fire punch to deal with them, if they are main problems to your team. if ability to deal with specific threats in HO is a reason to manaphy be better than hoopa-u, i think u should considerate that hoopa-u is a better wallbreaker than manaphy, also hoopa-u can deal with some HO threats like lati@s, mega man, gengar, unboosted serperior, and a lot of other special attackers.
You guys realy have to stop hyping hoopa like that. Yes it can 2hko everything in the meta when using LO which is cool and all but in return its frail enough to be 2hkoed by freaking Hippowdons EQ. You have to work your ass off to get it in safely against a defensive mon and then you will still take tons of damage in return rendering hoopa useless for the rest of the match. The number of defensive mons that can't do at least 30% to hoopa is extremely limited, without lots of team support to get in in safely and keep it healthy throughout the match Hoopa isn't even that good against defensive teams. It will most likely take out/heavily damage one mon but it will do so at the cost of its own life. Other wallbreakers might not have that ridiculous amount of power/coverage but pretty much every other wall breaker lasts longer, has better utility against more offensive teams and needs less support than hoopa does.
My guess is it will settle down somewhere in the A/A- region once the hypetrain stopped, its certainly not S rank worthy and i don't think it will keep that A+ for long, just to many crippling flaws in practise to be realy effektive.
My guess is it will settle down somewhere in the A/A- region once the hypetrain stopped, its certainly not S rank worthy and i don't think it will keep that A+ for long, just to many crippling flaws in practise to be realy effektive.
Lol, I'm sorry but this replay is more of a case of you playing badly than Hoopa being useless. You could have easily brought Hoopa against Thundurus after it took out Manaphy and either kill the Thundy or take a big ass chunk out of anything he switched into. But nah, let's get the one thing that can sorta take a hit from Weavile get HP Ice'd on instead and say it's Hoopa's fault :]
This is actually not me but flexeggutive, who is a well respected player and took archphantom another great player to 3 games in a bo3...... both of the players in the replay are VERY GOOD players which is why i chose that replay.....
Everyone is fixated on its shit physical bulk saying it does nothing against offense. But this is ignoring its very good special bulk. It can tank hits from Thundurus, Gengar, Latios, Alakazam, Raikou, Manectric, Magnezone and Serperior which are all solid Pokemon frequently found on HO builds. Not only that but after taking one of those hits it's able to fire off one of its own which there is no reasonable switch-in to on a hyper offensive team (or any team in reality). Also double switches are a MAJOR part of hyper offensive play and actual play for that matter, outside of theorizing 'it can't switch into anything' which is said about Weavile plenty but it finds its way in often enough.
Its prowess is clearly against bulky builds but it isn't 100% dead weight against offense all the time. It certainly has a better matchup against offense than Manaphy most of the time which needs to set up or get scald burns to do anything
Edit: also ironic that it fits quite well onto the very same type of teams that pressure it so badly (volt-turn)
Its prowess is clearly against bulky builds but it isn't 100% dead weight against offense all the time. It certainly has a better matchup against offense than Manaphy most of the time which needs to set up or get scald burns to do anything
Edit: also ironic that it fits quite well onto the very same type of teams that pressure it so badly (volt-turn)
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I've been holding onto this one for a while, and maybe now isn't the most opportune time thanks to the release of Hoopa, but I figured I'd put it out there:
(A-) ------> (A)
Jirachi is really great right now. I've been using Scarf, SubCM, and Sp.Def to a lot of success lately, but I feel like his scarf set is what really puts him above the other pokemon in A-. Let me list off some of the qualities that I feel make the scarf set so good:
Jirachi is really great right now. I've been using Scarf, SubCM, and Sp.Def to a lot of success lately, but I feel like his scarf set is what really puts him above the other pokemon in A-. Let me list off some of the qualities that I feel make the scarf set so good:
- Base 100 speed to outspeed Mega-Altaria after a DD.
- STAB Iron Head for checking fairies.
- Healing Wish support.
- Excellent defensive typing for pivoting with U-turn.
- Great move pool, including elemental punches, and grass knot to check threats to teams.
Choose your replays by how good the battle is, not by how good the players are. The replay is ass and dick riding two good players isn't going to make it any less ass or make your argument any stronger.
I totally agree on letting Nidoking move up. Its amazing coverage with moves like Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Ice Beam and Flamethrower or Thunderbolt (kinda pends on team) it hits any single mon neutral and thanks to LO + Sheer Force boost on any of these moves that does a lot of damage on any single mon which is common in OU. The only real counter I could think of is Chansey which walls any single special mon in OU anyway and is rly passive so u can easily abuse that. That makes it to an amazing Balance breaker which can completely shit on slower teams. It can be prefered over other Balance breakers like Gengar (which is actually pretty shitty since it doesn't come in on anything and gets easily revenged or pursuited) or Hoopa-U thanks to its better coverage and for not being as frail and Pursuit-weak. It can also abuse the high usage of Clefable since it switches in almost free on it and usually gets a free kill.
Some calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 283-335 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 182-216 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 380-452 (107.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 421-499 (122.7 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 169-200 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- 61.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 229-270 (76.5 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 283-335 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 182-216 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 380-452 (107.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 421-499 (122.7 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 169-200 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- 61.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 229-270 (76.5 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-252481726 Here's another one then same tour but me vs jacob..... hoopa u was useless for him tried to switch in once got forced out and then got lured and died(mega mawile was in the battle but it died by turn 5 so it was a non factor)This battle shows how hoopa u can fold under pressure and how easy it is to lure and ko.....
And plus one on nidoking moving up its a underrated mon no one prepares for with a sick movepool and is a good lead also, you can run max speed and beat things such as bulky chomp which is a staple rn on ho
teamsnickers you asked for a replay of Mana doing nothing V offense, and now you've got one:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230864631
Not a great replay, but a rather close game decided partially by a mispredict and partially by some hax (but it was probably over by then anyway). It was the best of 3 replays including Mana I found, the other 2 forfeited before Mana was sent out. In this game, Mana gets sacked.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230864631
Not a great replay, but a rather close game decided partially by a mispredict and partially by some hax (but it was probably over by then anyway). It was the best of 3 replays including Mana I found, the other 2 forfeited before Mana was sent out. In this game, Mana gets sacked.
I mean manaphy died to a lure (sub lop which is actually really underrated as most things switch on the fake out anyway as shown here) latios was also useless in this battle because of it and only got lops sub down, but technically mana was a folder and i gotta give you props on proving me wrong with that replay so im
I think Hoopa-U should be moved down to A actually. One of the primary characteristics of the S and A+ mons is that they all can switch into other threatening mons in the tier and Hoopa-U can really only switch into like hazard setting or psychic moves because nearly the entire tier can 2hko it and most will outspeed. Sure, Choice Scarf will ensure that you can maybe switch into a weak neutral and pretty much guarantee you can OHKO/2HKO that mon but it runs into being predictable. Although nothing likes to switch into even resisted hits, I feel any decently well rounded team can find a switch and take him out without much hassle. Idk I just don't feel like when I'm going into team preview right now that I am fearing for Hoopa-U. It's the best wallbreaker in terms of sheer strength for sure but I feel like its typing and speed are really really detrimental like worse than rocks are to talonflame detrimental.
When considering Hoopa-U's Scarf set, the thing that appeals to me about it is how stupidly easy it is to just click a move and expect things to die, even against bulkier offensive mons.
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 175-207 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 150-177 (45 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
That's a noteworthy power difference over Keldeo, using what is each's most spammable move (Hydro Pump hits harder, but Keldeo's main move would be Scald to burn through checks and counters). This is not Keldeo's preferred set, but OU on the whole is moving from Scarfers to priority and mons naturally fast enough to hit that level with things like Weavile, Torn-T, Manectric, and Alakazam, to name a few. Hoopa lacks the issue Scarfers often run into of locking itself into an exploitable move. The lack of significant Dark Resists in OU reduces that issue for Hoopa significantly, leaving only Fairies, of which Clefable, the most defensive one. is not going on offense where it can eat HF without worrying over Gunk shot. Offense in general doesn't have too many Pokemon with the natural bulk to eat Hoopa's moves. Hoopa is less prone to exploitation once it picks a STAB.
1. You say Mawile was a non-factor, but it basically killed Azumarill in the opening turns. If you mean on Hoopa's effect on the battle, fine. That said, Mawile took the Mega Slot, which using a different mon for could have made the battle go significantly differently, possibly reworking much of the team. Mawile didn't impact the battle immensely, but it obviously had a huge influence in the teambuilding for the Mega slot alone.
2. Alakzam was brought in on a free switch from a Sac, something Hoopa could just as easily do to Wallbreak. Heck, he could have just as easily brought it in on the Psychic you used to beat Garchomp. Hoopa has problems switching in, but so do a lot of high ranked mons like Weavile and Gengar. That said, Hoopa at least has the bulk to switch into Special Attacks, and in general is dealing with less direct attacking against the bulky builds it's used for.
3. Alakazam having Signal Beam is either giving up coverage or the Utility of its 4th moveslot, which Alakazam needs to perform well against bulky/stall teams that can stomach his power. If it was to lure Hoopa, why are you luring something that should be easy to RK anyway? Maybe because surviving this
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
Means Hoopa wins, forces Mega Zam out, and gets to smack something otherwise. Alakazam had to be tailored to beat it to avoid losing momentum, which if anything seems an example of Hoopa's influence on the Meta if Mega Alakazam is giving up a moveslot for a move that is less effective against anything but Hoopa.
Luring by definition is reducing overall effectiveness to draw in and beat a mon for teammates. A mon is not worth luring if it doesn't cause problems for your team, which in the replay was offensive, the style Hoopa fares worst against.
Hoopa has the raw power and the movepool to basically ensure that the second it gets on the field, it will MURDER something.
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 175-207 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 150-177 (45 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
That's a noteworthy power difference over Keldeo, using what is each's most spammable move (Hydro Pump hits harder, but Keldeo's main move would be Scald to burn through checks and counters). This is not Keldeo's preferred set, but OU on the whole is moving from Scarfers to priority and mons naturally fast enough to hit that level with things like Weavile, Torn-T, Manectric, and Alakazam, to name a few. Hoopa lacks the issue Scarfers often run into of locking itself into an exploitable move. The lack of significant Dark Resists in OU reduces that issue for Hoopa significantly, leaving only Fairies, of which Clefable, the most defensive one. is not going on offense where it can eat HF without worrying over Gunk shot. Offense in general doesn't have too many Pokemon with the natural bulk to eat Hoopa's moves. Hoopa is less prone to exploitation once it picks a STAB.
Okay, issues I take with this replay.
1. You say Mawile was a non-factor, but it basically killed Azumarill in the opening turns. If you mean on Hoopa's effect on the battle, fine. That said, Mawile took the Mega Slot, which using a different mon for could have made the battle go significantly differently, possibly reworking much of the team. Mawile didn't impact the battle immensely, but it obviously had a huge influence in the teambuilding for the Mega slot alone.
2. Alakzam was brought in on a free switch from a Sac, something Hoopa could just as easily do to Wallbreak. Heck, he could have just as easily brought it in on the Psychic you used to beat Garchomp. Hoopa has problems switching in, but so do a lot of high ranked mons like Weavile and Gengar. That said, Hoopa at least has the bulk to switch into Special Attacks, and in general is dealing with less direct attacking against the bulky builds it's used for.
3. Alakazam having Signal Beam is either giving up coverage or the Utility of its 4th moveslot, which Alakazam needs to perform well against bulky/stall teams that can stomach his power. If it was to lure Hoopa, why are you luring something that should be easy to RK anyway? Maybe because surviving this
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
Means Hoopa wins, forces Mega Zam out, and gets to smack something otherwise. Alakazam had to be tailored to beat it to avoid losing momentum, which if anything seems an example of Hoopa's influence on the Meta if Mega Alakazam is giving up a moveslot for a move that is less effective against anything but Hoopa.
Luring by definition is reducing overall effectiveness to draw in and beat a mon for teammates. A mon is not worth luring if it doesn't cause problems for your team, which in the replay was offensive, the style Hoopa fares worst against.
Hoopa has the raw power and the movepool to basically ensure that the second it gets on the field, it will MURDER something.
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