No Guard Galaxy

ive been playing for like, an hour, and im already 8 n 0 with a very slightly modified version of bludz's medicham team

please make sure your answer to mons like bp mega medi or lop isnt praying (the really gimmicky and i dont think ban-worthy) whimsicott can stall them out, most standard ou megas, not just charizard-y, despite being mostly unchanged are still huge threats that people just dont seem to remember to prepare for


also nasty plot+3 attack thundurus is an absolute monster now, even more so than standard, and you should try it. +2 thunder is significantly harder to find an answer for on balance than +2 tbolt. i mean... that seems like a given, but its still surprising to me just how much harder it hits

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 139-164 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
Mismagius has been putting in a lot of work for me. It's the only Pokemon in the game to get Inferno without being a Fire type, which catches a lot of people off guard who think their Fire-vulnerable Special attacker is a safe switch-in, its access to Thunder is useful against Mega Charizard Y, Tornadus-Therian, and a few other major beneficiaries of the meta, Hex is actually a pretty reliable STAB when one of your attacking moves always Burns the target and the other frequently Paralyzes them, and once I switched from Life Orb to Trick Scarf it became capable of outrunning everything important and crippling key Pokemon like Chansey. Whimsicott also hates Mismagius all around, whether from Inferno or Trick Scarf. I really like Mismagius.

Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch are driving me up the wall though. So many Pokemon get Dynamic Punch at random, making it almost impossible to avoid being hit with 100 BP with free Confused attached, with even running Ghosts being shaky -you need good prediction or else they'll just be hit with Knock Off, or with Mega Charizard Y's Inferno. (Yes, I've seen Dynamic Punch Mega Charizard Y. Not X yet, curiously) I hate to say it, but DYnamic Punch seems uncompetitive.

Zap Cannon is more of an edge case. Immunity to Electric/Paralysis with enough Special bulk to tank coverage moves is possible, such as with Volt Absorb Lanturn, but it's difficult, and I have doubts that every case can be covered. Mew, for instance, can do any number of things to ruin Lanturn's day. I wouldn't cry if Zap Cannon got suspected, but if Valmanway wants to leave it alone I'm not gonna push it.

But Dynamic Punch is just infuriating, with no good way to check the 80-ish different fully evolved Pokemon that get it, and the attached Confusion allows any of them to hax their way past checks and even counters as long as they aren't Ghosts -which you just need to predict the switch-in and murder with Knock Off or something.
 
So I've recently peaked on the ladder and it is very early in the month but here is the team that I have been successful with.

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Ice Punch
- Iron Tail
- Knock Off

Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 32 Atk / 224 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Earth Power

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Rush
- Dragon Dance
- Iron Tail
- Earthquake

Durant @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Superpower

Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Inferno
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hypnosis
- Soft-Boiled
- Defog
- Zap Cannon
 
Ghoul King said:
Mismagius has been putting in a lot of work for me. It's the only Pokemon in the game to get Inferno without being a Fire type, which catches a lot of people off guard who think their Fire-vulnerable Special attacker is a safe switch-in, its access to Thunder is useful against Mega Charizard Y, Tornadus-Therian, and a few other major beneficiaries of the meta, Hex is actually a pretty reliable STAB when one of your attacking moves always Burns the target and the other frequently Paralyzes them, and once I switched from Life Orb to Trick Scarf it became capable of outrunning everything important and crippling key Pokemon like Chansey. Whimsicott also hates Mismagius all around, whether from Inferno or Trick Scarf. I really like Mismagius.

Zap Cannon and Dynamic Punch are driving me up the wall though. So many Pokemon get Dynamic Punch at random, making it almost impossible to avoid being hit with 100 BP with free Confused attached, with even running Ghosts being shaky -you need good prediction or else they'll just be hit with Knock Off, or with Mega Charizard Y's Inferno. (Yes, I've seen Dynamic Punch Mega Charizard Y. Not X yet, curiously) I hate to say it, but DYnamic Punch seems uncompetitive.

Zap Cannon is more of an edge case. Immunity to Electric/Paralysis with enough Special bulk to tank coverage moves is possible, such as with Volt Absorb Lanturn, but it's difficult, and I have doubts that every case can be covered. Mew, for instance, can do any number of things to ruin Lanturn's day. I wouldn't cry if Zap Cannon got suspected, but if Valmanway wants to leave it alone I'm not gonna push it.

But Dynamic Punch is just infuriating, with no good way to check the 80-ish different fully evolved Pokemon that get it, and the attached Confusion allows any of them to hax their way past checks and even counters as long as they aren't Ghosts -which you just need to predict the switch-in and murder with Knock Off or something.
Click to expand...

zap cannon is more than annoying less than broken i guess, but its limited distribution really doesnt phase me much (mews kinda the only problem user imho, but everything mew can do in this meta is a headache). though, dynamic punch definitely needs some inspection, 100bp confusion on some of the respectably strong mons that learn it is a pain, especially with how easily you can come across paraflinchfusion in this meta.
 
Just a quick question. Shouldn't moves like Rock Blast, Tail Slap and Icicle Spear be hitting their maximum amount of times? Y'know because everything should always hit?
 
Remmub said:
Just a quick question. Shouldn't moves like Rock Blast, Tail Slap and Icicle Spear be hitting their maximum amount of times? Y'know because everything should always hit?
Click to expand...
No Guard Galaxy skips the accuracy check, which is a different roll than the number of times a multi-strike move hits (affected by the ability Skill Link).
 
Leavanny @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grass Whistle
- Sticky Web
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor

Actually kinda cool suicide lead! I have found Sticky Web pretty effective here.
 
Might as well talk about my thoughts on potential bans since I've heard some complaints here and there. Right now the two things I think most deserve to be suspected if not a banned are Dynamic Punch and Whimsicott.

Dynamic Punch reminds me an awful lot of Swagger, but I think it's even worse. You know how hitting yourself in confusion at +2 Attack hurts a lot? Well Dynamic Punch not only deals damage with every hit, but it can deal a LOT more damage than simply hitting yourself even at +2--bear in mind that this is BEFORE you actually hit yourself. Furthermore, if you do your research, you'll find that a surprising sum of Pokemon can learn Dynamic Punch, with notable threats including Charizard, Weavile, Metagross, Dragonite, Mew, Azumarill, Tyranitar, Medicham, and Conkeldurr; granted most of these guys learn it by tutor in Emerald and will lose out on post-RSE Egg Moves, but this can be an affordable sacrifice given how useful Dynamic Punch is. Finally, there are only two methods outside of items to counteract Dynamic Punch: Ghost-types and Own Tempo. Both of these are rather flawed methods of approaching Dynamic Punch, as the former might require you to switch into an attack which could be predicted, and the latter is only available to the Slowbro family, which do take Dynamic Punch well at the cost of being weak to Zap Cannon. Confusion can turn hard counters into liabilities that lose momentum, and having a move that not only does just this but also acts as a powerful coverage move is very infuriating to face. So if we ban anything, I really want this to be the top priority.

As we all kinda expected, Whimsicott has made Grass Whistle into a very infuriating move to deal with, given it has +1 priority and only Soundproof Pokemon can remain unaffected (it even goes through Substitute since it's a sound based move). This gives Whimsicott a huge advantage against teams, as it can either bust out the ol' SubSeed combo to easily wear things down or can use U-turn to punish switches, making it a huge pain to approach. For most other sleep inducers, you can hope to outspeed them and attempt to Taunt or possibly KO them, but being the fastest Prankster user in the game makes getting the jump on Whimsicott nearly impossible. We could just ban Prankster + Grass Whistle, since banning Whimsicott itself seems a bit extreme to me, but do you guys think it would be easier to ban Whimsicott itself?

While I'm at it, I'll also comment on Zap Cannon since it seems to be a bit of an issue. Unlike confusion, which has very few counter measures against it, paralysis actually has a moderate amount of answers to it, such as Ground-types and Electric absorbing abilities being immune to Electric-type moves and Electric-types being immune to paralysis. For Ground-types, we have Excadrill, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Gliscor, Mamoswine, Diggersby, and Gastrodon, most of which are capable of forcing out Electric-types, Electric absorbers being fewer, with most notable examples being Manectric before Mega Evolving, Thundurus-T, Mega Sceptile, and Lantern if you're willing, and Electric-type switch-ins include Magnezone, Zapdos, Mega Ampharos, Raikou, Mega Manectric, and Rotom-W, so it's not like we have a shortage of answers to Zap Cannon. To be honest, I think of Zap Cannon in No Guard Galaxy as I think of Scald and Will-O-Wisp in OU, since I feel it's something that's incredibly annoying but not to the point where it's unbearable, and is something that the metagame needs to adapt to. I personally don't think Zap Cannon is suspect worthy, but am willing to talk more about it if enough people think otherwise.

Just for the record, I am not banning anything just yet. Let the metagame grow for a bit, and if things don't improve much, then we can dish out bans.

Agree with my thoughts? Disagree? Discuss.
 
I agree that Dynamic Punch should be banned on anything not named Machamp or Golurk, as it's very noncompetitive.
Match quality plummeted because of this single move. "Who hurts himself first" defined a lot of battles.

As for Whimsicott, it's extremely annoying to the unprepared and may well be worth a ban. Almost all of the teams I've battled with has a dedicated Whimsicott counter, which is a huge sign that something is wrong with the Pokemon. Banning PranksterWhistle is a possible alternative, but it's basically the same as banning Whimsicott outright. All the Infernos, Gunk Shots and Iron Tails around the corner.
 
I haven't encountered a lot of Dynamic Punch, ignoring how I haven't had a LOT of playtime on the ladder, but I can see how you think it's similar to Swagger. In some ways it's worse in that it never misses. I've missed Swaggers before (I know, I'm a horrible person) that have cost me a Pokemon or the game. Definitely the most bizarre D. Puncher I've seen was Mega Sableye. I suppose I wish it didn't inflict confusion because it's a great Fighting-type option for a lot of Pokemon, which opens up new coverage opportunities (or you toss it on Iron Fist Conk and it just HURTS things), but better to get rid of a broken element.

EDIT: Welp, after losing to the same guy twice spamming Dynamic Punch Jirachi and getting consistent self-hits, fuck Dynamic Punch.

I don't think I've seen Whimsicott yet, but I have watched a handful of replays where it is utter cancer. The number of things that get Sing or Hypnosis in general makes me think Sleep as a whole needs to be looked at in NGG. Unfortunately, without a complex ban of some sort, the only real option would be to additionally neuter stuff like Smeargle and Amoongus who AREN'T broken with sleep in standard, but sleep is so powerful and widespread (seriously, does every stall team need three Pokemon with room to carry sleep?) that I would not miss it.

Zap Cannon is easily dealt with, with lots of fantastic Pokemon that are immune to it or immune to the paralysis. There's been a fair number of Zapdos on the ladder, but given Zap Cannon's far more shallow pool of Pokemon and the much greater number of answers to Electric-type attacks that I don't see it being such a problem. It's certainly not utterly ubiquitous like sleep and Dynamic Punch are. Of course, I've been using Mega Ampharos who is a fantastic answer to Zap Cannon (ignore how it also has the strongest non-item-boosted Zap Cannon), so I could be biased.
 
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I mentioned this already but instead of banning whimsicott let's complex ban it so whimsicott cannot use grasswhistle while it has prankster and has to run something else and about dynamicpunch it's uncompetitive so ban it
 
Complex-banning Prankster Grass Whistle would sufficiently eliminate the problem without any collateral damage. Whimsicott can still be an annoying little bastard with Prankster SubSeed (plus the freed moveslot can encourage some creativity, or else just go to Taunt or Toxic), and the other sleepers can still do their jobs. Meanwhile, no other Pokemon receives a Prankster sleeping move (except for Liepard with Prankster Yawn, but that hardly counts).

I do wonder why Dynamic Punch wasn't quickbanned at the beginning of this meta. Swagger at least has the potential to backfire in the form of an incoming +2 hit. With Dynamic Punch, you not only get the confusion hax, but you do very solid damage. The only check on that was its pathetic accuracy, and thus only Machamp could effectively utilize it. We may differ on definitions of "uncompetitive", but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that guaranteed confusion plus the ability to deal solid damage fits. Get rid of this move, please.
 
Im agreeing with dynamic punch ban, there is literally no reason not to use it. Bypassing checks and counters and turning them into bait means that it is almost unfair to face. Metagross imo is one of the best users of the move, especially if its running sub. If you are able to get a sub up, incoming counters can be dynamic punched and then used as set-up bait for further subs or meteor mash boosts. It, just like swagger, is uncompetetive just as valmanway stated earlier, and is by far the worst aspect of the meta currently.

I certainly disagree with a whimsicott ban, but definitely agree with prankster + grass whistle as there is no reason not to slap that set onto a team, and it is over-centralising to the point were every team is running a counter to a grass whistle whimsi and/or their own whimsi. The fact that grass types cant block it means that you are able to eliminate any opposing Pokemon, an extreme view would be making it 6-5 in your favour. Whimsi can also run moonblast, which although might seem like a subpar option, actually allows it to dish out some surprising damage with 252 investment.

On another notes, some huge threats that i'm currently seeing are:

Specs keld - Hydro pump hits like a truck, doing ridiculous damage, the move has no drawbacks, meaning it is extremely spammable. Focus blast hits even harder, with a chance to 2ohko band azumarill and ohko bulky chomp after rocks.

Scarf raikou - Rash Zap cannon hits insanely hard for a non choice specs or LO boosted move, and the definite paralyze means it is extremely spammable once grounds and electric are gone, meaning u can even by-pass resists or bulky mons. (A quick replay from an om tour final were once whimsi was eliminated i won with scarf kou which is better than it sounds http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/noguardgalaxy-277410548 highest gxe on ladder hehehe)

LO tornadus-therian - LO hurricane hits soo hard, one of the strongest stabs without a choice item, and with one hundred percent accuracy you risk nothing just just spamming hurricane. Coupled with an awesome speed tier and a splashable movepool filled with an insane amount of coverage means you have an even stronger monster than what you would see in ou.

a rly underatted set is also sing dd altaria but haven't used it enough to elaborate.

I could go into dynamic punch mons but i dont want to encourage their usage

p.s. a vilability rankings would be pretty cool
 
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I kinda thought half the fun of this meta was using rarer moves, not banning them. If Zap Cannon gets banned I will be very disappointed. It's not broken because of its small distribution and there are 2 types and a couple abilities that are immune it or its side-effect. Raikou, Zone, Zapdos, and MegaAmp seem to be the only real threats with it, and MegaAmp even counters all of them. Then you have, well, ground types. None of those fair very well against most grounds. Volt Absorb, Lightning Rod, and and even Limber prevent the move from being a nuisance.

As for DynamicPunch, I started out being pro no-ban, until I started using it. I threw a MegaMeta on my team, and he swept twice already just because of confusion hax. I would have been stopped by my opponents balloonTran, because MegaMeta can't OHKO with a fighting coverage, but thankfully confusion saved the day. Now I feel like this is no way to win, myself having a passionate hate for Confuse Ray itself. I would agree with banning DynamicPunch off of everything except my boy Machamp, who is the rightful owner of it (and I guess Golurk because he has rights too). (As an added bonus, this meta will not seek to make Machamp outclassed.)

And then there's Whimsicott, who I really haven't had issues with, but I never use it so if it got banned that would be just fine with me. I always run something with immunity to it, right now I'm using Sap Sipper Goodra who is certainly not deadweight if the opponent doesn't have a Whimsi, it's an amazing special tank and attacker, and I'm also trying out an insomnia Gourgeist, because Whimsi cannot touch it and is forced to switch out, while I get a free sub and use a miss-free WilloWisp or Leech seed.

Just my thoughts, but I would like to see only DPunch and/or Whimsi banned, certainly not Zap Cannon.
 
Just a note, but I've seen at least two people saying it needs to be banned on everything except Machamp and Golurk. That is not only a completely nonsensical idea (that's like only disallowing the use of Choice Band if the user has more than 120 base attack), but there is literally no reason to leave it legal on Machamp and Golurk in the first place (it is a completely arbitrary exception even before you consider that they're both still outclassed/mediocre as crap anyway).

So that this isn't a wasted post, I agree with a complete ban of Dynamic Punch and a complex ban of Prankster+Grass Whistle/Sing. Zap Cannon should stay though, as it is very managable and has crappy distribution.
 
Zap Cannon

To be a bit more explicit: I'm concerned about the potential for Zap Cannon to be problematic, on the right 'mon/with the right build. I think an eye should be kept on it, but I see no reason to suspect it right now.

Dynamic Punch

Maximum hax, please ban.

I'd love to keep it for the widespread Fighting coverage, but the incidental Confusion just makes it a nightmare, where so many things can only be countered by their counters 50% of the time.

Grass Whistle Whimsicott

I honestly don't see why people are pushing to ban this. It can only put one Pokemon to sleep, its offensive presence is pathetic, myriad Grass types can take a Moon Blast or Energy Ball and are immune to Leech Seed, and Subseed shenanigans are easily stopped by Roar/Whirlwind, multi-hit attacks, or just obliterating it with Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice. I have at no point put a Whimsicott counter on my team and have found it, at best, mildly annoying. Subseed Poison Heal Breloom with Spore seems way more viable to me, even with Grass types immune to Spore. Subseed Grass Whistle Whimsicott doesn't even have room for the truly problematic moves like Encore: Grass Whistle/Substitute/Leech Seed only leaves room for one move, and it damn well better be something that lets Whimsicott hurt Grass types. In practice it's basically always Moon Blast, because of that need to be able to hurt Grass types. (And then Amoonguss can ignore it anyway)

The Grass Whistle+U-Turn builds don't seem all that effective either. Like, OK, you can react to the enemy's switch and grab some momentum, but there's actually a decent number of Pokemon out there that can do that job while having actual offensive presence: Crobat gets Hypnosis+U-Turn, is actually even faster than Whimsicott, and can actually hurt things -it can even Pursuit whatever it put to Sleep, just to be spiteful. Backed by Infiltrator, its Hypnosis is actually better than Grass Whistle, because it still bypasses Substitutes while being unaffected by Sap Sipper and Soundproof. So Crobat brings in offensive presence, lightning-fast Sleep that isn't blocked by Substitutes, and U-Turn, and many ways does the job better than Whimsicott.

At its core, Whimsicott is a way to temporarily take out a key member of the enemy team, with so little offensive presence that its opponent can freely choose what gets hits with sleep, because almost nothing is actually afraid of taking damage from Whimsicott. If it's the U-Turn approach, you can also stay in and let it U-Turn out, with a shot at waking up and immediately attacking whatever comes in from the U-Turn. If you don't know which one it is, you can stay in and find out: it's not urgent that you immediately switch to a check or counter, because Whimsicott is, again, pathetic. (Unless you're concerned about it U-Turning out to a Pursuit-trapper, or a Gothitelle, but Pursuit-trapping is only threatening to a small pool of Pokemon, and Gothitelle is dangerous in conjunction with any move-to-switch Pokemon)

The Subseed builds can stall through a member or three of straight HO teams that haven't bothered to bring any number of things that are HO and check or counter Whimsicott -again, Mega Gardevoir explodes it outright, even through a Substitute- but that's about as threatening as it gets, and frankly if you're running a pure HO team that can't deal with Whimsicott, the team is probably sub-optimal anyway.

The fact that it has Prankster in conjunction with Grass Whistle isn't even a big deal. Whimsicott is so fast that honestly the main impact it has is that Scizor can't just Bullet Punch it first. So? Since when has priority been the thing that keeps Sleep-inducing moves in check?

EDIT: Somehow got mixed up: Crobat gets Hypnosis, not Sing. I stand by my basic sentiment though, especially since Persian is a pretty cool alternative. Plus, Crobat's Infiltrator means it ignores Substitutes anyway, so it's all good.
 
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I agree with Dynamic Punch ban. It's ridiculous and uncompetitive. It's like Chatter but 1.5x stronger.

About Whimsicott, as much as I hate this thing, I have to be objective about it. Guys, please remember that annoying is NOT equal to broken. There are counters to this thing and as for Sleep move, many pokes have access to it, even though this poke is the only poke with Prankster. What it does is pretty predictable (Grass Whistle + SubSeed + filler). You could argue that after this poke is banned, Mega Sceptile can utilize the same strategy because it has freaking 145 Speed AND has Grass Whistle. Sleep in general is very powerful. That's what Sleep Clause is for.

As for Zap Cannon, I don't want it banned. It has much more counters than Dynamic Punch and is not as ridiculous. It's managable I think.
 
The thing about Whimsicott which makes it questionable as to its health is Grass Whistle's ability to hit through substitutes. Therefore, it can't be beaten by simply setting up a sub as it switches in like it can in standard. This is a big problem considering that substitute is the primary way of stopping Whimsicott's shinanigans in the first place, and the utility of completely disabling a major threat to your team without the issues faced by trapping (which is, in effect, the same thing) means that the only method of counterplay is to bring either Sap Sipper, Vital Spirit, Soundproof etc. This is similar to how Gothitelle is beginning to necessitate the use of Shed Shell on stallbreakers such as Manaphy in standard simply to stop the former from removing your team's dedicated answer to stall. If I compare it to standard as a whole, the key issue with Whimsicott is less about it being broken (like M-Mawile and Greninja are) and more about it being uncompetitive (like Gothitelle and Double Team/Minimize are) and restrictive to teambuilding (like Aegislash is). These are not desirable characteristics of a balanced, competitive metagame, and as a result cracking down on them is necessary to the positive development of the metagame. However, Whimsicott as a whole is not the issue; instead, the issue is the ability to consistently use either Sing or Grass Whistle (ignoring their Substitute in the process) before your opponent can do anything. I have listed the possible ways of getting around this, and I have listed them below:
  1. Ban Whimsicott
  2. Ban sound-based sleep moves
  3. Ban the combination of Prankster+[sound-based sleep move]
Here is my personal analysis of the options available to us.
  1. This is a poor option because, without Grass Whistle, nothing has changed for Whimsicott outside of the buff to Stun Spore/Sleep Powder.
  2. Both moves have very good distribution. Sing also has a very fast user in Jolteon, which can use its base 130 speed to outpace the vast majority of unboosted Pokémon and put them to sleep through their substitute. If you ignore Whimsicott, Grass Whistle has a huge number of Pokémon with access to it in conjunction with Chlorophyll (not counting NFEs/the Whimsi line, all of Leafeon, Leavanny, Lilligant, Maractus, Sawsbuck, Sunflora and Venusaur have access to the combo) as well as Mega Sceptile, which is even harder to outpace than Jolteon is.
  3. This means that the moves are available to a large pool of Pokémon while removing aspect of potential priority Sings/Grass Whistles.
I personally feel that option 2 is the best course of action to prevent CharY+Venusaur strategies from becoming too powerful once Whimsi is off the scene, but I feel that option 3 is also a valid course of action to increase archetype variety and to keep the niches of Pokémon such as Jolteon. What the players want will happen, and the course of action is ultimately down to Valmanway.

I hope I've been informative, and I thank anyone who has taken the time to read my post :)
 
Literally the only Prankster Sleep option available is Grass Whistle Whimsicott. It doesn't even have Sleep Powder. Option 3 is functionally a roundabout way of debuffing Whimsicott in specific while pretending you're not targeting Whimsicott. At that point it makes more sense to just ban Whimsicott, rather than engaging in these shenanigans.

As for option 2, the idea that sound-based Sleep moves need a ban is ridiculous. Infiltrator Hypnosis (Crobat, Malamar, Spiritomb), and Infiltrator Sleep Powder (Jumpluff) exist and are flat-out superior to sound-based Sleep moves, since they ignore Substitutes, ignore Soundproof, and in the case of Hypnosis ignore Sap Sipper too. Substitute is and always has been only a single tool for dealing with Sleep, and being able to bypass it is not uprooting a core assumption of the metagame.

The only difference between No Guard Galaxy and Standard in this regard is that these Sleep moves hit reliably.

The counterplay to the enemy attempting to put a key threat to Sleep is to let them put something else entirely to Sleep, so your key threat is now immune to Sleep thanks to Sleep Clause.

Most of the Pokemon with these unreliable Sleep moves are deeply flawed in other ways that make taking them a hit to your team's overall viability: effectively, you are deciding "I'm OK with my team being a bit worse overall in exchange for this Sleep move". I'd be a lot more concerned if, say, Mega Metagross could use Hypnosis to shut down Bisharp revenging it, no need to switch, but strongly viable Sleep inducers that are now reliable because No Guard Galaxy are not normal. Gengar and Mew are the main exceptions, and frankly it makes more sense to ban a couple of viable abusers than to ban an entire concept that isn't broken outside of the two abusers.

And, again, Whimsicott is not uncompetitive. It's not even that good. It's annoying, sure, but I honestly place it in the same territory as Shedinja: Sure, a team can find itself despairing at the realization that it can't touch Shedinja/Subseed Grass Whistle Whimsicott. (Except Whimsicott is going to run out of PP on Substitute after a mere 16 uses, where Shedinja has to be forced through potentially more than 100 PP to be dealt with in this scenario, and is in actual fact Swords Dancing up until it can kill everything. Whimsicott is just plain in trouble once Substitute is out of PP) But, as I said in my previous post, if your team is that screwed over by Whimsicott, the team probably has deeper problems than "Whimsicott exists".

---

On an unrelated note: I'm really enjoying actually getting use out of Persian in a meta. It doesn't hit as hard as I would like, and I'm not comfortable giving it a Life Orb to compensate, but it provides an incredible amount of utility, outspeeding a sizable portion of the meta, able to Sleep key threats and drop Knock Off on switch-ins or U-Turn out to grab momentum, and with enough coverage/utility moves to make it unpredictable. Foul Play can let it outspeed and murder setup threats, for instance.
 
Dynamic Punch really needs to go , it can singlehandedly win games that you really have no business in winning. I can personally attest to this as I have literally spammed 3 dynamic punch users to get to the top ten on ladder by literally winning games due to how unbalanced the strategy is because half the time when you are in a losing proposition you can click dynamicpunch and flat out win games that you didn't deserve to.

Replays Showing my point:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/noguardgalaxy-277597556
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/noguardgalaxy-277613071
 
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K guys just a note, but if we decide Grass Whistle Whimsicott is too uncompetitive, don't do complex bans of Prankster+Grass Whistle, just ban the move, or ban Whimsicott, it's a lot simpler that way. That said, I haven't played too much yet so I can't form an opinion on whether or not it needs to go, but I don't think a complex ban is necessary.
 
I don't find Whimsicott a problem personally. Most Magic Bounce users stop it cold, as unlike Sleep Powder Grass types aren't immune to Grasswhistle. And it's not like there aren't any viable Magic Bounce users: Mega Sableye, Mega Diancie and Espeon are all good mons in this tier.
 
First of all, no we shouldn't complex ban Grass whistle, there's only one real good abuser of it, and it's Whimsicott.

Alright let me go over this in separate paragraphs:

Is Cotton easy to handle and counter? The subject of Magic bounce was brought up, but in reality that's flawed. Neither of the Magic bouncers are counters too Whimsicott, as if you didn't notice, it's stabs are super effective against both of them.

4 SpA Whimsicott Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 134-162 (55.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 112+ SpD Mega Sableye: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If you're really in need of beating it, shift some EVs around to beat both of them with one moveslot

180 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 112+ SpD Mega Sableye: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

180 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 105-124 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO

So that's sure as hell not reliable. I've seen a plethora of Sleep users being chosen to check it, even unreasonable things like Lum Berry Tornadus-Therian to catch it off guard and that is just ridiculous. Whimsicott is scary enough behind a sub that teams will dedicate entire team slots/move slots and item slots just to check it, like Sleep talk, Lum berry and insomnia. The effect this pokemon has on the metagame is unhealthy

Grass whistle isn't the problem, Whimsicott is.

The problem is the combination of subseed. Prankster subseed with the combination of Grass Whistle and subseed you're almost guaranteed a substitue. Which creates an endless chain of sub + leech seed which widdles the opponent immensely, and it's just such a fucking pain. It's god damn annoying and a menace to face that centralises the metagame

 
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