Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

While I agree that comparative ranking is a worth-while system, I disagree that rose defines the S tier. I think Roselia is representative of what an S mon should be in its ability to effect the way the meta is played/prepared for, but to say that S IS Roselia is misguided. Just my thoughts on that subject. I also agree that Floatzel's potential bump to S isn't without justification.
 
Last edited:
Megazard said:
Please use examples other than scraggy in your arguments. A lot of people have posted here in support but the unanimous consensus of the council was to not rank it because it isn't any good. If we could get some more clear examples that aren't interpreted in two opposite ways, that would be nice.

As far as the ranks, I don't see any need for a radical change outside of simply adding more S ranks. It would make S rank worse as a whole if we added, say, float and pilo, but it would still be the top rank and I don't see the issue with that. I'd like to see Floatzel in S, I think it's worth the bump up either way, but where did "add weird rank descriptions" come from
Click to expand...
I was just going with what Anty was using. To be honest, there are others probably, but I don't know much about them because i don't use them besides Flareon which is why I nommed it a while back. I have versed Scraggy though & know that it's decent which is what C rank is BUT it would clutter the ranking system if we just put every pokemon in the rank they are viable for. Since, other players would get the idea that every pokemon is viable ERGO they won't take it seriously, which is why I dismissed the idea from the start for it wasn't even my idea. I don't agree with the Scraggy nom but nevertheless, if this was a regular viability ranking list with less clutter, then I would.
 
tmacbalanced said:
I have versed Scraggy though & know that it's decent which is what C rank is BUT it would clutter the ranking system if we just put every pokemon in the rank they are viable for. Since, other players would get the idea that every pokemon is viable ERGO they won't take it seriously, which is why I dismissed the idea from the start for it wasn't even my idea. I don't agree with the Scraggy nom but nevertheless, if this was a regular viability ranking list with less clutter, then I would.
Click to expand...
I don't get what you're saying. It's worth C rank, but ranking viable things would clutter VR (which shouldnt stop us at all, if it's viable we rank it, scraggy just isn't), but ranking viable things gives people the wrong idea because they think they're viable but you don't actually think scraggy's viable but clutter? I'm so confused
 
Megazard said:
I don't get what you're saying. It's worth C rank, but ranking viable things would clutter VR (which shouldnt stop us at all, if it's viable we rank it, scraggy just isn't), but ranking viable things gives people the wrong idea because they think they're viable but you don't actually think scraggy's viable but clutter? I'm so confused
Click to expand...
Oh sorry if that was confusing. It's like this, scraggy can score some knock outs in some games & can even do some other stuff consistently. But, it's outclassed, and has notable flaws to not give it enough attention. BUT it is viable. For the word "viable" means that it is capable of being used as well as succeeding. At the same time though, if we did this for other pokemon that are capable of this, then the list would get cluttered & people won't take the list seriously. So, I agree with comparing pokemon & seeing what it does that other pokemon can't. Seems better that way.
 
I like the comparing ideas that trc and Anty gave. But I don't get why you just don't make an S- rank with Floatzel, Stoutland, Dodrio, Zebstrika, and Piloswine. Or is that not allowed in the smogon rules? It would give a place for the better A+ rank Pokemon to go without over exaggerating their viability by putting them in S rank where Roselia is still a little better than all of them.

My opinion on the viability is pretty much what Anty already said but I have a couple things to add. Yes, a Pokemon's stat and movepool is a big part their ranking, but also what their role is, and viability with other Pokemon with that same role. For all we know, Electrode is pretty good in PU, but it doesn't matter when you can use Zebstrika which outclasses it completely. Same thing with Scraggy and Vigoroth. Scraggy may be viable in a solo standpoint, but when you look at how it does in comparison to other Pokemon with the same role, there is no big reason to use it. I also think that viability should be on how the discussed Pokemon can stall/KO/do its role against the important and common Pokemon of this metagame, not any other metagame. This random Pokemon could be great against the common Pokemon in the Scyther meta or Throh meta but not against Pokemon used now. Another thing to think about is what type of playstyle that Pokemon is used in. It doesn't matter if a Pokemon is a good stall Pokemon like Avalugg and Lickilicky when stall does badly overall in the metagame. So viability should be less about a Pokemon's numbers and solo performance but more how it compares to other Pokemon in the current metagame.
 
Last edited:
tmacbalanced said:
I was just going with what Anty was using. To be honest, there are others probably, but I don't know much about them because i don't use them besides Flareon which is why I nommed it a while back. I have versed Scraggy though & know that it's decent which is what C rank is BUT it would clutter the ranking system if we just put every pokemon in the rank they are viable for. Since, other players would get the idea that every pokemon is viable ERGO they won't take it seriously, which is why I dismissed the idea from the start for it wasn't even my idea. I don't agree with the Scraggy nom but nevertheless, if this was a regular viability ranking list with less clutter, then I would.
Click to expand...
I can agree with this Scraggy argument. i tested it a lot and had a lot of success with said Scraggy and i still feel it is a decent Mon. I digress... I also feel I would of had the same success if not better, running say Duosion, Vigoroth, and Clefairy who are all Bulky set up WinCons, that need less support.
 
I have no idea why serious discussions are being derailed by Scraggy talk everytime I look. I'm amazed at the ability to segue discussions of S rank's exclusivity into Scraggy. Quantum Physics lecture turned into a culinary course real quick.

Anyway, back to actual discussion.

Vullaby to B

Alright, keeping with the current theme of comparative ranking, lets take a look at Vullaby's current position in the VR. Vibrava is in the same rank and I don't think this makes much sense. Vullaby provides teams with much more defensive utility in the current meta when compared to Vibrava. The ability to check +6 Linoone, Stoutland, Mightyena and various other physical attackers that are prevelant in this meta aswell as countering relevant threats such as Jumpluff, Kadabra, and Grumpig make Vullaby a great addition to teams, whereas Vibrava doesn't check much in the current meta and is relatively frail when not countering the targets that its typing/ability allow it to. Vullaby's access to a variety of supportive options (taunt, whirlwind, knock off) and STAB Foul Play (allowing it to bypass its rather lacking offensive stats when checking physical attackers) are also notable when comparisons are made between Vibrava and Vullaby as defoggers. The ability to effectively run either a defensive or specially defensive set is also something that seperates Vullaby from Vibrava, as the latter can only get away with its spdef set due to typing/ability. Yes, Vibrava is a defogger immune to spikes and resistant to SR. Yes, it is a dragon. Yes, it is a Volt Switch stop. But, tbh, HP Ice on our Electrics is more common place then ever before with Zeb now running it a significant percentage of the time to avoid drops when revenge killing Jumpluff, to avoid being Fraxure DD fodder, and of course to hit Vibrava and Gabite. All in all, I think these two need to be seperated by a rank. Either moving Vibrava down or Vullaby up would satisfy this new trend of comparative ranking and make much more sense, in my opinion.

mag edit: seriously guys stop talking about scraggy lol or i will just delete your posts
 
Last edited:
Also why the <BAN ME PLEASE> is Piloswine only in A+? Pilo is an excellent SR setter and one of the Pokemon we'll probably lose in November. It's got a great defensive typing, epic bulk with Eviolite, and Thick Fat removes its Fire weakness while making it resist Ice. Yeah Knock Off is a thing, but this thing's almost as good as Roselia imo.

tl;dr: Piloswine A+ -> S
 
Last edited:
Mega-Pokebattlerz said:
If discussion on Scraggy continues to derail this thread, I say we blacklist it. Seriously, it's almost as bad as Latios-Mega in OU or Ambipom in RU. In my opinion, anything that's derailing the thread should be blacklisted.

Also why the fuck is Piloswine only in A+? Pilo is an excellent SR setter and one of the Pokemon we'll probably lose in November. It's got a great defensive typing, epic bulk with Eviolite, and Thick Fat removes its Fire weakness while making it resist Ice. Yeah Knock Off is a thing, but this thing's almost as good as Roselia imo.

tl;dr: Piloswine A+ -> S
Click to expand...
From what I see, the reason it isn't S rank right now and not as good as Roselia, among other things, is its lack of recovery. Piloswine is still an amazing SR setter, but its lack of recovery is what really makes it the top of A+ rank instead of S rank
 
ExplosiveChaos said:
From what I see, the reason it isn't S rank right now and not as good as Roselia, among other things, is its lack of recovery. Piloswine is still an amazing SR setter, but its lack of recovery is what really makes it the top of A+ rank instead of S rank
Click to expand...
from what i see, Piloswine isnt a PU Pokemon anymore :[
 
Anyone else think we should leave vr for a while and see how viable/unviable certain mons could be with Piloswines rise up to NU?

Piloswine wasnt on the lines of Poliwrath or Barb/Costa in affecting the overall meta but it did cause quite a few pokemon to not be at there full potential and allowing time to see any big changes would be nice
 
I mean there hasn't been new discussion points or anything so that's probably what we're doing anyways. We usually wait for the meta to settle a bit. Regardless, w/ pilo gone the meta will undergo a nice change

also hjad that post really isn't necessary especially since it isn't even implemented in the sim
 
This isn't a too important, but Pelipper should probably go from B+ to B or B- because Swanna is a little better (will make this more of a post on a computer).
 
Well it seems that Piloswine leaving has opened up some things. Just going to say this is a double edged sword for my argument against Vibrava and Vullaby being in the same rank. Pilo was one of the main stops to Vibrava and ,on the other hand, Zeb is now free to run HP Ice. Losing a ground type also makes these in shorter supply, although Stunfisk does exist. Discuss?

Edit: Maybe Gabite is our lord and savior now aswell?...HP Ice Zeb still looms though
 
Last edited:
Detect Marowak said:
Well it seems that Piloswine leaving has opened up some things. Just going to say this is a double edged sword for my argument against Vibrava and Vullaby being in the same rank. Pilo was one of the main stops to Vibrava and ,on the other hand, Zeb is now free to run HP Ice. Losing a ground type also makes these in shorter supply, although Stunfisk does exist. Discuss?

Edit: Maybe Gabite is our lord and savior now aswell?...HP Ice Zeb still looms though
Click to expand...
Golem...Golem...GOLEM!!! haha can't wait to use this guy again to see how it works now that piloswine is gone. And I believe jumpluff might get a bit better now as well others weak to ice shard.
Edit: Dodrio, Raichu, & Rapidash might get better as well now that I took another look at the viability rankings. Raichu had to rely on focus blast but with Gabite it can HP ice it to death as well as Vibrava. Raichu can take on the other rockers or hazard removers as well unless Golem's Sturdy is still intact. Golem does have priority just as Piloswine did so I guess it could take on Raichu if Raichu has taken on previous damage. Rapidash hits hard but it's not taking on Golem or Gabite. Dodrio also isn't taken on Golem that well either, nor Gabite.
 
Last edited:
Hi :} I'm mostly here to talk about Drifblim, which I think is criminally underranked at C- right now. Drifblim's Sub+Liechi Berry set is an amazing cleaner for offense that really capitalizes on a lot of metagame trends right now. With Spikes being as good as they are, Drifblim's checks are easily worn down especially if you pair it with something like Chatot that forces in the few Rock- and Steel-types in the tier. Drifblim can also whittle its own counters early-game with Knock Off and/or WoW on stuff like Stunfisk and Golem. After just Stealth Rock and one Spike, Drifblim is basically able to OHKO the entire offensive metagame with +1 Acrobatics or Knock Off, and not even Scarf Simis can outspeed it after Unburden. Actually, everything in S through A- is OHKOd after SR+Spike except Stunfisk, Probopass, and Rotom-Frost, the former two of which are extremely easily worn down by Spikes and the appropriate teammates. Drifblim also itself deters Rapid Spin (though you should be careful about switching into Armaldo) meaning hazards are not too difficult to keep up. Drifblim's also got some nice bulk to ensure you can either tank a semi-strong hit from something like LO Floatzel to get into Unburden range.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-277328314 - Stunfisk is eliminated through Spikes and two teammates that wear it down, and Drifblim is able to clean up easily while subbing on a Lickilicky

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-277271534 - Luxray is weakened heavily early game, and by subbing down on something initially faster than it, Drifblim manages to get to +1 while still behind a sub to finish off the probopass.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-277278457 - nothing special but Drifblim can setup on Linoone, fuck Linoone :toast:

Oh yeah, and obviously Drifblim lost one of its most reliable checks in Piloswine. TL;DR Drifblim's checks are easily weakened and its ability to set up and clean teams should warrant a rise from C- to something like B.

Another change I could see happening is Golem rising to A- as a reliable Stealth Rock user that annoys offense and checks the threatening Normal and Flying types of the tier (also it's a pretty good suicide lead for HO).
 
rSl6HEB.jpg


I think that Arbok should definitely rise now that Piloswine (its most common check) has left the tier.

Now Arbok can afford to run the superior EQ set instead of aqua tail, which barely anything can really can switch in on it well (Golem and Solrock being two exceptions). I'm also a huge fan of the shed skin set (both defensive and offensive) which allows it to essentially beat all the stally mons may be able to beat it normally (Gourgiest Super). I usually find that intimidate isn't as needed anyway because Arbok finds ample opportunities to set up vs common mons like Roselia and Tangela.

I'd support a rise to A or at least higher on the chain in the A- rank, because this thing is godly at the moment.
 
Last edited:
I cant see arbok rising at all, and if anything it lost something it could lure for teammates :/

Can we get back to Floatzel to S?
Floatzel defines the metagame. Offensive waters in general are really strong atm and the number of them in the high ranks is actually stupid, but floatzel stands out as a cut above the rest. Floatzel is difficult to switch into. Outside of Politoed, there's no solid switch-in that's gonna work a good amount of the time. Something that can have either a strong specs set with nice coverage or a strong band set with nice coverage (or something like mystic water etc) is just really really annoying to try to switch into. Not only that, but Floatzel is the most versatile Pokemon in PU at the moment. You can go physical or special, band/specs/mysticwater/life orb, and have a ton of customizable moves in between with cool options like CB Pursuit (underrated), specs focus blast, CB Return to donk Politoed, Taunt, etc. Oh, and scarf is a thing that it does too. And BU BP. Unlike other wallbreakers, Floatzel is naturally faster than all but two relevant and one common thing in the tier, meaning that it's not going to be forced out easily after getting a kill like, idk, Grumpig is. It's really easy to slap on teams if you want speed control, a hard hitter, a momentum stealer, a dry passer, a wet passer (pun intended and bulk up isn't even that bad), a scarfer, at very little opportunity cost. The next best things in A+ rank are Dodrio and Stoutland and those two suffer from several more issues than Floatzel, most notably that speed. In such a fast offensive tier, Floatzel stands out to me as being easily S worthy.

After reading my nom, I went really overboard on selling how good it is, so I guess there should be a little summary down here with a little more realistic stuff. Floatzel is the most versatile mon in the tier and really is hard to switch into. It gives offense a hard time, it's not lame vs stall or balance, it can do a ton of stuff and it's really easy to put on a lot of teams. It's certainly better than the next best A rank, Dodrio / Stoutland, and should rise.
 
This guy
340.png
deserves to be ranked. (in C- or C preferably)

I didn't believe in his ranking in the previous meta, but things have definitely changed for the better for Whiscash.

The first major change is Zebstrika now always runs HP Ice rather than HP grass. This is absolutely huge, because Zebstrika is the number 4th or 5th best pokemon in the meta, and Whiscash stands out as its strongest ground-type counter after Stunfisk and SpD Hippopotas. It doesn't only apply to Zebstrika, but Raichu too. Whiscash turns both of these mons into liabilities and set-up baits.

The second major change is the lack of popularity and viability (compared to other top mons) of Tangela and Gourgeist. Tangela and Gourgeist are Whiscash's hardest counters, but they are not used often in this meta because they come with the automatic teambuilding strain of a grass type who fails to beat offensive waters. They also face heavy heavy competition with Roselia, who also turns them into a liability in battles. This is GREAT news for Whiscash. It means that it is very capable of sweeping the standard Rose balance squads with just a little hazards support to obtain OHKOs.

What does Whiscash do? Many people have the misconception that Whiscash is can only put in work if it attempts to sweep teams with Dragon Dance. This isn't true. Whiscash can use its useful without using the move dragon dance, by switching into passive pokemon like Metang, and spamming the move Earthquake on the switch. Life Orb Earthquake actually hits HARD despite Whiscash's mediocre attack- take a look at this calc:
252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 243-289 (77.8 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. "But what about Ground immunities?" you might say. Don't worry too much about this- Whiscash has access to the mighty Stone Edge to nail those pesky Flying types on the switch, powerful enough to get OHKOs on Jumpluff, Swanna, and Articuno.

This is THE Whiscash set to run below. Choice Specs is also okay but faces too heavy competition from other water types, and should only be used if your team is really weak to Raichu or Zebstrika.

Whiscash @ Life Orb
Ability: Oblivious/Anticipation
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Tail

*Aqua Tail is chosen over Waterfall because it actually scores certain KOs, look it up. Stone Edge is also a necessity to hit flying types that want to switch onto EQ, such as Articuno and Swanna, and also does this:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisage: 221-260 (75.9 - 89.3%)

Overall, Whiscash is a kind of niche mon for people who are looking for an Electric Type counter with some good offensive presence, as well as a soft check to Arbok and Rapidash. It is also a pokemon for people looking to take advantage of common stealth rock users such as Stunfisk, Probopass, and Metang because Whiscash sets up on them with ease. Even if there isn't any specific pokemon which Whiscash has a type advantage against, it can still do well vs offense because of its very nice natural bulk of 110/73/71 and lack of weaknesses.

As for competition with Fraxure, I think we can all agree that Fraxure is the better pokemon by far. However, it does not come with an immunity to Volt Switch (which is vital in a teambuilding perspective), as well as a great type advantage vs the Big Four SR Users (Stunfisk, Metang, Probopass, Relicanth). Nor is it immune to the disgusting move known as Thunder Wave! So it is pretty clear to me that Whiscash has a niche.

Here's a replay where I sweep Optical with a Whiscash. He kind of misplayed early game by being greedy with Stealth Rock, but it is incredible how it only took misplay to become an instant loss.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-278782995
 
ManOfMany said:
This guy
340.png
deserves to be ranked. (in C- or C preferably)

I didn't believe in his ranking in the previous meta, but things have definitely changed for the better for Whiscash.

The first major change is Zebstrika now always runs HP Ice rather than HP grass. This is absolutely huge, because Zebstrika is the number 4th or 5th best pokemon in the meta, and Whiscash stands out as its strongest ground-type counter after Stunfisk and SpD Hippopotas. It doesn't only apply to Zebstrika, but Raichu too. Whiscash turns both of these mons into liabilities and set-up baits.

The second major change is the lack of popularity and viability (compared to other top mons) of Tangela and Gourgeist. Tangela and Gourgeist are Whiscash's hardest counters, but they are not used often in this meta because they come with the automatic teambuilding strain of a grass type who fails to beat offensive waters. They also face heavy heavy competition with Roselia, who also turns them into a liability in battles. This is GREAT news for Whiscash. It means that it is very capable of sweeping the standard Rose balance squads with just a little hazards support to obtain OHKOs.

What does Whiscash do? Many people have the misconception that Whiscash is can only put in work if it attempts to sweep teams with Dragon Dance. This isn't true. Whiscash can use its useful without using the move dragon dance, by switching into passive pokemon like Metang, and spamming the move Earthquake on the switch. Life Orb Earthquake actually hits HARD despite Whiscash's mediocre attack- take a look at this calc:
252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 243-289 (77.8 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. "But what about Ground immunities?" you might say. Don't worry too much about this- Whiscash has access to the mighty Stone Edge to nail those pesky Flying types on the switch, powerful enough to get OHKOs on Jumpluff, Swanna, and Articuno.

This is THE Whiscash set to run below. Choice Specs is also okay but faces too heavy competition from other water types, and should only be used if your team is really weak to Raichu or Zebstrika.

Whiscash @ Life Orb
Ability: Oblivious/Anticipation
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Tail

*Aqua Tail is chosen over Waterfall because it actually scores certain KOs, look it up. Stone Edge is also a necessity to hit flying types that want to switch onto EQ, such as Articuno and Swanna, and also does this:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisage: 221-260 (75.9 - 89.3%)

Overall, Whiscash is a kind of niche mon for people who are looking for an Electric Type counter with some good offensive presence, as well as a soft check to Arbok and Rapidash. It is also a pokemon for people looking to take advantage of common stealth rock users such as Stunfisk, Probopass, and Metang because Whiscash sets up on them with ease. Even if there isn't any specific pokemon which Whiscash has a type advantage against, it can still do well vs offense because of its very nice natural bulk of 110/73/71 and lack of weaknesses.

As for competition with Fraxure, I think we can all agree that Fraxure is the better pokemon by far. However, it does not come with an immunity to Volt Switch (which is vital in a teambuilding perspective), as well as a great type advantage vs the Big Four SR Users (Stunfisk, Metang, Probopass, Relicanth). Nor is it immune to the disgusting move known as Thunder Wave! So it is pretty clear to me that Whiscash has a niche.

Here's a replay where I sweep Optical with a Whiscash. He kind of misplayed early game by being greedy with Stealth Rock, but it is incredible how it only took misplay to become an instant loss.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-278782995
Click to expand...
Why would you use a sweeper that loses to every scarfer, most priority, and even standard Floatzel? I don't see how this is ever sweeping a competent team, even if you do use Ice Beam like some people were suggesting. It also loses to just about everything decently bulky that's not weak to its coverage, for example: +1 252 Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 203-239 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Like sure it can do cool things that other sweepers can't but why does that matter when it's never actually doing what it's supposed to? I already gave my thoughts on Specs Whiscash in the other thread too.
 
Dundies said:
I feel weird saying this, but even though you did overstate it a bit, I agree with and support this nom. I did a bit of testing and found that lots of teams are really unprepared for Whiscash, since it finds setup opportunities on a lot of common mons and can sweep through a lot of teams. I did want to point out, though, that this should be the set:

Whiscash @ Life Orb
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Naive Nature / Adamant Nature / Naughty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Ice Beam
- Aqua Tail

You say that Tangela and Gourgeist have experienced a drop in usage, and I think this is mainly true due to the fact that Roselia is on most teams, but Whiscash has an option that allows it to lure both of the two in Ice Beam, so that definitely shouldn't be forgotten about. With Ice Beam, you can 2HKO both of them upon switching in after rocks, allowing you to sweep later.

4 SpA Life Orb Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 153-182 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 185-218 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also I think Adamant / Naughty should be slashed, as +Attack nature allows you to OHKO Roselia after a bit of prior damage at the cost of being outsped by Floatzel and Zebstrika at +1.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Roselia: 269-317 (88.7 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Yeah, Whiscash doesn't beat scarfers, and? Fraxure loses to the majority of the tier's scarfers as well, I don't understand how this merits Whiscash staying unranked when it's a hell of a lot better than every C- mon and most of the C mons, and it has a strong niche over other setup sweepers with a typing and immunities that allows it to set up on some of the tier's more prominent mons. Also +Speed allows it to beat Float, not sure why you include this lol. mag edit: no it does not, lol And yeah, it loses to bulkier mons like Machoke if its only at +1, so does Fraxure lol. It's not going to OHKO every mon in the tier at +1 of course, but there's honestly not many things that can switch into Life Orb Ice Beam or a +1 Attack Life Orb Whiscash. I agree on Specs Whiscash though lol.

I'm going to keep fighting this until it's ranked, because it honestly deserves to be. Sorry Mag (next time test the mon first imo)

edit: jolly +1 doesn't outspeed float
Click to expand...
You're missing the point of my objection. Why does it matter that it can set up on things when it can't actually accomplish much of anything once it's set up? Unless it's a really, really weakened team any given team is going to have at least one way of stopping a set up Whiscash. There are plenty of other options to check the same mons Whiscash can that can make way better use of the turns they get by checking these things.
 
First of all, I really wouldn't use "zebra never runs hp grass anymore" as an argument, golem is a real pain for a lot of teams and zebra still does use it sometimes.
Anyway, I don't like the argument "it's c- not a+ which is enough for an outclassed mon". We already have a lot of things ranked that are really, really, really lame. Nomming things for a lower position doesn't excuse the fact that we're taking a mon previously deemed totally unviable and stating that now it's good. There's been a massive use of potential hidden gems lately, with things like scraggy, mienfoo, butterfree, drifblim, Whiscash, etc being experimented with and people need to start finding better ways to prove viability and be more convincing because all 5 of those ga e been argued as needing to move up and the only one I've heard/seen good things from was blimp. Realistically, do we really need to rank Whiscash? All I've seen really is "it's good" "it checks Arbok unlike fraxure" and "it's better than all the c- Pokemon" which honestly says more about c- because aside from like blimp and butterfree they're all really shit or outclassed. That's it, I don't see anything else. Other than that there's been fuck all for arguments itt and magnemite's basically quashed everything brought up in the Skype convo so let's move on.

Oh and as much as I love furfrou it's easily the worst mon in c+, defensive is really passive and lacks recovery outside of restock which is even more passive and offensive isn't bulky enough to consistently check anything and too weak to beat anything remotely bulky and has no SE coverage for anything. Meanwhile its spdef is always gonna be really mediocre. Just use it and you realize how much of a waste of space it is on any team. C is much better, and I'm expecting c rank to change around a bit with all of this lower mom testing so I could eventually see a drop to c-. Using BEM also makes me think that this should be nowhere near B rank but that hasn't been going anywhere for some reason so I'll drop a reminder that it's overrated
 
i am not sure what it can't accomplish much even if it can set up' means, it really isn't that weak after all and it gets koes on offensive pokes easy whereas defensive pokemon that check it need a bit more effort but whiscash's main value is vs offensive teams anyway. the difference with whiscash here is that unlike most sweepers which take damage setting up and are prone to being revenge killed, whiscash hard walls pokemon like zebstrika, so zeb has little use staying in and getting off a weak hp ice on the setup. this allows to often be at near full health AND and have one dragon dance set up, which means it actually can beat pokemon like floatzel, which only does 58-68% with life orb hydro pump, allowing whiscash to dragon dance again and pretty much wreak havoc against most forms of offense. it should really only run enough speed to outspeed zebstrika at +2 as whiscash, as i said, can generally setup twice against a lot of teams, especially ones with zebstrika which is super super common, it just occasionally needs a decent amount of outplay (such as predicting a jumpluff switch in for example). so yeah it is an inconsistent one but it is still pretty cool. this is the set i use:

Whiscash @ Life Orb
Ability: Anticipation
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpA / 20 SpD / 112 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam

you can run plates over life orb, that's really cool for survivability. one of the greatest things about whiscash is that even though zebstrika shouldn't be running hp grass, you never have to be unsure about it because anticipation will let you know if it is or not, it's really cool. the evs let you outspeed zebstrika at +2, 2hko max hp gourgeist-super with ice beam, survive 2 rapidash flare blitzes after rocks even with the defense lowering nature, give you max attack, with the rest in sdef because whiscash wants to be taking less damage from floatzel and it is more efficient in spdef. so while whiscash is a pretty inconsistent and difficult to use pokemon, it is not inherently a bad one, and has some very worthwhile niches when considering it in teambuilding. furthermore, i have built solid teams against all common threats in the meta and been destroyed by whiscash, so it is not a pokemon you can prepare for naturally.

edit: this came off as too positive so basically i think it is still a shitmon just a d rank shitmon because it only works in very select situations and it is more trouble than it is worth
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top