Ladder Almost Any Ability

[tegrof19]

Glaceon has other problems that refrigerate doesn't fix, namely a bad defensive typing and mediocre bulk, and low speed without a scarf in a meta where resists to ice are very resilient so being locked into it isn't favorable

 

[Talpr0ne]

Moreover, it's completely outclassed by Kyurem.

 

[frogstomperful]

Kyurem is not a mon I have any interest in; Glaceon is. And even if Refrigerate Glaceon is one of the worst things you can send out, it's still an improvement over regular Glaceon, which gives me joy. Kyurem does not give me joy.

EDIT: And I realized that Sheer Force for Glaceon would be better in every way. Same 30% boost but potentially to all its moves instead of just one.

 

[Snaquaza]

Lately, I've been testing a few ways of using a really interesting move in Almost Any Ability: Reversal. In standard battling its been hard to abuse in the newer generations, but in Almost Any Ability the potential users get great new ways of abusing the move, making it much more threatening. Of course, you could use Flail too, but I feel that in general the fighting type is better, but you'll be KOing most neutral Pokemon anyway.

To start off, the best abilities to use are probably Sturdy and Unburden. Sturdy obviously allows a Pokemon to get in against a threatening Pokemon, set up, and get knocked to 1 HP, after which it can start using a very powerful Reversal. Problems with this way are primarily hazards, as they can easily cause the entire strategy to become useless, so its important to carry hazard removal. Unburden is another great ability to use, and a very underrated one at that. I don't often see Unburden users in AAA, even though it can be one of the strongest abilities in the game, so I'd encourage everyone to experiment with it. Anyway, Unburden can be used in two ways. Either you use an Endure set, to get to 1 HP, or you use Substitute to slowly go to 1 HP, while also possibly getting save set-up opportunities, and you may even have a sub up after going to 1 HP. With both of these sets, pinch berries are generally the best items to use. When you use Sturdy, you can either use Liechi or Salac, and hopefully get a move which boosts the other stat (so Liechi goes well with Agility, while Salac goes well with Swords Dance), one is a bit less powerful, while outspeeding more things. For Unburden, its best to use Liechi, since your speed gets raised to incredible levels anyway (unless you're extremely slow), so if you use a boosting move, use Swords Dance.

While these are great sweepers, they hate priority. It's important that if you use this on a team, that you have a good check against most priority users. Because these will generally be used on more offensive teams, I advice using Gale Wings Skarmory. Besides that, it's up to you to build a good team.

Anyway two examples that I've used. There are many other interesting users though (Heracross, Medicham, Zangoose)

Blaziken @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Reversal
- Fire Punch
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

This is an example of the Unburden Reversl strategy. The idea is to get on on a slower Pokemon, preferably at full health, or at SR and 1 layer of rocks, so that you can easily sub down to 1 HP. If this isn't possible, it still hits hard if its at like 12% health, so don't worry about that too much. When you're up against a slower Pokemon, you can just sub down. If they attack you, you can keep using Substitute, if they try to set up, you just set up and then start subbing again when they start attacking. This way you'll always win against Pokemon like Snorlax once you got in safely. If they switch out to a faster Pokemon, it may just be even better. When you sub on the switch, they have a sub to break first. You can sub each time after they attack, so you'll end up at 1 HP, get a speed boost and have a sub up. Hopefully after this boost you outspeed them, so the opposing team has to break the sub before killing Blaziken. This is also the reason you shouldn't use Speed Boost, as you can't underspeed faster Pokemon after a switch. Anyway, there's not much more about the set. Reversal is incredibly strong at 1 HP, especially with a Liechi boost and cleans easily. Fire Punch is for ghosts I guess, dont' use Flare Blitz as you'll kill yourself with the recoil.

Lucario @ Salac Berry
Ability: Tough Claws / Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Endure
- Reversal
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed

Honestly, this set didn't work as well as the previous one, but there are probably better moves to use. The idea is just to Swords Dance whenever possible, and Endure when a Pokemon comes in to hit you. After that you can try to sweep with Reversal and use Extreme Speed against priority users. If you use Tough Claws, you'll be even stronger, but you are hardwalled by Ghost types, so you should get a lure for that. This is remedied with Scrappy, which gives you perfect coverage.

In general, its fun to use an unexpected, but good move like this and I encourage you all to try it sometime! There are probably even more strategies, and it works way better than you would expect, taking advantage of a lot of Pokemon. Besides this, also try to use Unburden a bit more. It's an amazing, yet underutilized ability, sadly.

 

[Amaranth]

Was looking to get into AAA and I have a pretty simple question.

How much exploration of this meta has been done? I know there's always potential for new sets to pop up in those crazy sets, but how much testing has been done with all these mons?
And also one thing that's unclear to me, what are the Mega's abilities? Standard or can you choose those as well?

 

[jackm]

Was looking to get into AAA and I have a pretty simple question.

How much exploration of this meta has been done? I know there's always potential for new sets to pop up in those crazy sets, but how much testing has been done with all these mons?
And also one thing that's unclear to me, what are the Mega's abilities? Standard or can you choose those as well?

1. A LOT. This is like, one of the OG other metagames.
2. The megas' abilities are standard after they mega-evolve.

 

[Funbot28]

Was looking to get into AAA and I have a pretty simple question.

How much exploration of this meta has been done? I know there's always potential for new sets to pop up in those crazy sets, but how much testing has been done with all these mons?
And also one thing that's unclear to me, what are the Mega's abilities? Standard or can you choose those as well?

This meta has kinda been dead recently, so there is still quite a few to explore, and Megas inherit there own abilities after mega evolving

Edit: Ninja'd (Sighs....)

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Can someone explain why the banned pokemon are banned? I get why regigigas and slaking and shedinja and kyurem black and a little bit archeops and smeargle but what about the rest?

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Some short explanations:
Bisharp was banned due to being very powerful with Adaptabilty and Tough Claws, while also having some other sets like Flash Fire and Levitate to beat counters. Mamoswine was again broken due to Adaptability. Weavile had very good Refrigerate and Tough Claws sets. Terrakion was again broken due to Adaptability. Sturdy on Shedinja is overcentralizing and hard to play around. Regigigas, Archeops, Kyurem-B, and Slaking would be broken with a number of abilities lol. Smeargle with access to a better ability (mostly Prankster however) and every move in the game was too much. Prankster Taunt/status move such as sleep/GeoPass or QuiverPass/ShiftPass/hazards etc. was all too good. Keldeo was very good with Adaptability or Primordial Sea or even Motor Drive to go faster and wreck stuff. I may have missed some stuff/got something wrong, but that should give you a general idea of why it was broken.

This, then Hoopa-U had an amazing Scarf Hustle set (Hyperspace Fury can't miss, so it was basically a free Band) and it's Sheer Force set was strong too. It could run mixed as well and utterly decimated stall, while the Scarf Hustle set even put in work against offense SubMindRaikou

 

[Jaguar360]

Can someone explain why the banned pokemon are banned? I get why regigigas and slaking and shedinja and kyurem black and a little bit archeops and smeargle but what about the rest?

Bisharp was banned for its Adaptability and Tough Claws sets, which were overwhelmingly strong with their Knock Offs, Iron Heads and Sucker Punches, combined with the ability to boost with Swords Dance.

Keldeo was also too strong of a wallbreaker with Adaptability and Tinted Lens. With Swift Swim, it was also a monster under rain.

Mamoswine's powerful Ice/Ground coverage on its Refrigerate set was too much mainly.

I don't really remember Terrakion tbh, but it's likely the same case as Keldeo.

The issue with Weavile was Refridgerate again, especially since it had Refridgerate Fake Out and Quick Attack. Arguably worse to deal with than Mamoswine. Tough Claws was also really potent.

Hope this helps.

 

[CactusCacti]

I'll elobrate a bit;

Bisharp was generally banned due of its extremely powerful Adabt/toughclaws/tinted with its dark type stab priority and terrifying knock offs generally wrecking shit, making it very hard to wall and revenge.

Keldeo was absolutely terrifying as its normal hinderance has always been its terrible ability, but with AAA it gained too many toys, infact, if I recall correctly, intimidate keldeo was one of the worst ones due of its calm mind set, and with the other set being adapt/tinted, it really forced many situations where guessing the wrong set = Death sentence

Mamoswine has been bit contreversional ban in general, but it was pretty strong and had lot of variance, whenver it used -ate, technician, adapt or tinted, so it was kinda understable considering the earth stab that was pretty terrifying thing to combine with its other stab to by pass its walls.

Terrakion was just brutal. Like Keldeo, getting a proper ability ment it became a steamroller, it was able to run scrappy to annihilate its usualy counter of doublade, and with its stabs having excellent offensive typing, it once more made the situation of; "Is this scrappy or tinted/adabt?" and if you guessed wrong = death sentence. It was generally just insanely hard to wall.

Weavile was like Bisharp and Mamoswine combined, but with actual speed to back it up. The refridge was super powerful, but even without refridge, weavile was able to wreck shit with tinted, adapt and technician too.


In general, lot of the mons banned have been pokemon that gained, way, way too much merit from opening their normally pretty terrible/situational ability slot to something that allowed them to be always effective and milk their stats to the max.
So you could say the ban lining has been similiar to regi and slakings situations, not just as extreme but still the type that showed their claws in action

 

[BibarelThump]

The way you describe a lot of these mons that were banned, the same abilities seem to come up. Is there any chance that suspecting abilities like adaptability would happen?

 

[Grim]

The issue with suspecting Adaptability is that not all the Pokemon that use it are broken. The only Pokemon that Adaptability tends to break are Pokemon such as Weavile and Terrakion that have great STAB combinations. Basically, it's not Adaptability that is broken, it's the Pokemon that use it. The same goes for abilities such as Poison Heal.

 

[Snaquaza]

Bumping this as I got a cool set, so why not.

A while ago I build an unorthodox stall team. One of the 'mons it included was a Suicune. It was the plain old CroCune set (Rest, Sleep Talk, Calm Mind, Scald), because it can be a pain to face, but with a small twist. This set tried to take advantage of unprepared teams that rely on physical wallbreakers to break through it. Namely, it used Harvest. Harvest, in combination with a Kee Berry, allows Suicune to become even more difficult to face for many teams. While some may enjoy the utility of other abilities like Poison Heal or Unaware, this set allows Suicune to be harder to take down each time the opponent hits it with a physical move (if Harvest worked). This means that physical Pokemon will generally be unable to break it, causing a lot of trouble for offensive teams. Even Victini is able to be PP stalled.

This is my take on a creative Suicune set, but have any of you had any luck with Harvest?

 

[Snaquaza]

I know this is a discussion that has been held many times by now... but I feel that it's time to wake it up again, after talking to a few users on PS. The bans in this metagame are kind of ridiculous, and some even contradict each others banning policy. This, in combination with the many different kind of bans, make AAA more difficult to get into than needed, and can arguably make it less fun for some users. I know you had a vote about this, but we still find it flawed. I've discussed it on PS with hollywood and SpartanMalice and we agree that it's generally easier to get into the metagame when the Pokemon banlist would be smaller, in exchange for the ability banlist.

First off, a lot of Pokemon have been banned because Adaptability was too strong on them. Mamoswine, Terrakion, Bisharp and Weavile all got banned because of this, or partially because of this ability. Additionally, in the current metagame Latios is a small problem as well with its hugely powerful STAB moves, while pretty much everything with a good dual STAB can abuse it. The banning of Adaptability wouldn't really hurt the metagame either. Besides it making it a bit harder to break stall, because you have hugely powerful moves, it doesn't really have any good effect on the metagame, as it basically lets Pokemon stay the same, while only making them stronger. In return for this, we can unban Mamoswine and Terrakion, and have less problems with it on other Pokemon in the future.

I'll discuss this briefly, as the removal of Adaptability would easily allow Mamoswine and Terrakion to be unbanned already, but they don't seem like they would be overpowered in the current metagame. Mamoswine was banned on the premise that it could break stall easily, which doesn't seem to be true. Although it'd definitely be a threat, so are many Pokemon in the metagame. Stall also has Pokemon like Skarmory and Cresselia which can avoid the 2HKO (but barely). I agree that this would still make it too strong, but stall can easily use this metagame to beat it more easily. Suicune can run Poison Heal to avoid the 2HKO when used together with Protect, while stall teams that find themselves weak to Mamoswine can use Thick Fat, Delta Stream and Levitate to get specific resistances. This is likely to be useful in general, because if you can't handle Mamoswine well, chances are that you're weak to other Ground- or Ice-types. Finally, while Mamoswine has great STAB coverage, if it mispredicts when something like Suicune comes it, it will be forced out, so stall can also handle it this way, although its trickier. So in general, I wouldn't say Mamoswine is too good against stall, especially when you compare it to other wallbreakers like Adaptability Latios, but also things like Pangoro (read previous paragraph s_s).

Versus offense it's the general slow strong threat, with only Ice Shard differentiating it. I have no idea how it could be OP this way, as Ice Shard is weaker than most Refrigerate ESpeed users, and they can't outprioritize those. Balance is pretty much the same, as although they'll have some walls (often Suicune which doesn't mind Mamo as much) they will have something to revenge kill it or pressure it.

Terrakion is a bit more threatening due to its speed tier, so I could see it still being broken, but with how common Doublade is in the current metagame, which walls it and turns it into setup bait, it would often be turned into a liability. Although I won't argue for this too much, since it still has a decent speed tier vs offense, great STABs besides Doublade and the ability to set up with Swords Dance.

Also, the policy on -ates is atrocious. For some reason Aerilate got banned because it made Dragonite OP, and arguably Noivern. However, Refrigerate didn't get banned when it made Weavile OP and arguably Mamoswine. On paper, they're all equally threatening (honestly, I view Flying, Fairy and Ice as about equal offensive types), while two of the three got good users. On this basis it's strange that one did get banned, because it made two Pokemon OP, while another didn't. This leads to strange situations, for example that -Ate + Extreme Speed users can't use Aerilate, but can use Refrigerate and Pixilate, when you could argue that they are equal to each other on them. I'd prefer all three of them getting banned, as they buff a few specific Pokemon which get access to good Normal-type moves and not to equal moves of the typing it changes to. I want Pixilate to be banned as well, on the base that if you keep it, you still promote the inequality, since besides a few Pokemon, Refrigerate and Aerilate aren't necessarily OP either, as the three abilities are pretty much equal to each other on the average user. That said, there are two reasons that I'd want them all to get banned. The first of them is that I prefer the ability getting banned over the Pokemon, as having a specific additional ability banlist and Pokemon banlist is annoying for new users, as while the ability one is unavoidable, the Pokemon one is for many of the banned Pokemon, and they will understand that Regigigas, Slaking, etc. are OP, but I feel that it's better to keep it short for convenience. The other reason is that I feel that the offensive metagame (obviously not stall) is a lot of priority spam, which seems to be unhealthy for the metagame. The moment two offensive teams face each other, there's a good chance that the one with more, powerful priority will win, as offensive teams are unlikely to be able to take repeating strong hits. I feel like it's able to be handled right now, but the option to lessen it is good. Obviously, this would lead to Weavile being able to be unbanned, as both of its strong abilities: Refrigerate and Adaptability would be banned.

Finally, I want to comment on the other Pokemon which are currently banned: Keldeo and Smeargle. I won't talk about Shedinja as I feel Sturdy Shedinja would be dumb. Although you could easily prepare for it, it'd also overcentralize the metagame, but I know hollywood has a different opinion on that.

I'll start with Smeargle as it is the less powerful one. I've always felt the old Prankster + Smeargle ban was a bit premature and didn't really account for it much besides theorymonning. Statistically, Smeargle is an extremely powerful Pokemon, but it obviously gets an enormous movepool, encompassing every move excluding Chatter and Struggle. This led people to think that it could be too good at leading mostly, but also at providing a safety net to most things, having Prankster Spore and Destiny Bond.

Smeargle still has the same problems as it always has. It has no offensive presence, so its easily taken advantage of when it has used Spore on something. Even Spore is able to be countered, as Grass-types (you can use Dark Void but accuracy) and especially Magic Bounce Pokemon have a field day against Smeargle. Actually, Magic Guard invalidates everything non-Mold Breaker Smeargle does, completely. Anyway, obviously, Smeargle would function as a good lead, being comparable to Deoxys-S, which trades Spore for offensive presence. However, once it has set the hazards, hazard removers can switch in for free, and even if you dont' have one, you can limit it to two hazards by just switching something in and KOing it. Neither Spore nor Destiny Bond should be a problem either, as we already have Prankster Spore users, and I feel an utility check would actually be good for the metagame, as it prevents random set-up sweepers from sweeping you, while Destiny Bond is a generally niche option, that can let you KO something, but if you mispredict it can let something set up. So, it's easy to take advantage of.

Smeargle also loses to opposing Prankster leads if they have Taunt, and it can't run all the moves it wants into one set. For example, Parting Shot would be really nice to pivot out, but you probably want hazards, Spore, Destiny Bond, Taunt, Topsy Turvy and a lot of other moves as well, so you have to choose moves carefully.

Finally Keldeo. It's not affected by any of the things I've said in this post, really (Surprising how so few changes can cut the banlist so much!) It is probably still too good for the metagame, but a suspect test if these things get implemented would be interesting. However, I still expect it to be broken, which also counts for Bisharp. Both of them keep really good sets (Primordial Sea and Tough Claws respectively) and would likely to be broken. Although it'd be nice to have a fast and strong Water-type in the metagame, it would likely be too good for the metagame, and thus its better to keep them banned at this point.

I hope these changes are considered, and I expect some opposition, but I also feel like they're reasonable enough. I don't feel it'd hurt the thread unless people are gonna shout at each other again, as it's been pretty dead, so a discussion about a controversial thing would be good!

 

[Mr155551]

I always mention how all ates are uncompetitive because literally the only way to deal with them is using a steel type and steel types dies to earthquake/close combat from dragonite and lucario respectively so i propose a ban to all ates

 

[CactusCacti]

Honestly, smeargle could be unbanned with pranksters cause the biggest threat it was offering on the table was the effortless priority baton ban possibility as a lead with the ability of priority sleep and escape from most priority, but the baton pass clause takes care of that pretty well as it won't be able to pass smashes or geos, and other multi stats so easy when speed is eliminated from the play.
However, it still leaves priority belly drum pass as an issue, but if -ate clause is put in place, even that would not be as strong as it seems either, and not being able to pass speed still hinders the receiptians greatly.

honestly I'd be all for banning adabtability and -ate in general. Cause these abilities are just way too fucking good if you give them to a pokemon that is already strong enough alone. hell, I would even suggest adding tinted lens on this list, cause it's also an ability that makes any already powerful wallbreaker turn into insane wallbreaker when they have a powerful stab with low resistances(such as bisharps dark stab).

adabt, -ates and tinted are abilities that should be left to their original owners as their own niche and not be allowed on pokemon that are already good enough as they are.
they basicly the type of abilities that are a cheap buff that can be applied to nearly any pokemon to make them suddenly a lot better offensivly if they fit a criteria with their move pool (powerful stab(s) or powerful normal type move for -ates)

 

[thesecondbest]

Smeargle is stupid with prankster. Imagine NGG whimsicott that learns every move in the game, can set up any entry hazards, etc etc... it would be extremely dumb to face and overcentralizing. But I agree that the banning policy on ates needs to be changed. I was always a fan of banning the broken strategy, not the best abuser - or as I sometimes put it, banning cheating instead of reprimanding only the best cheater. Ates made mix and mega not nearly as fun as it could have been, and I feel that issue should be rectified here, especially considering the ladder is essentially dead.

 

[Lcass4919]

I know this is a discussion that has been held many times by now... but I feel that it's time to wake it up again, after talking to a few users on PS. The bans in this metagame are kind of ridiculous, and some even contradict each others banning policy. This, in combination with the many different kind of bans, make AAA more difficult to get into than needed, and can arguably make it less fun for some users. I know you had a vote about this, but we still find it flawed. I've discussed it on PS with hollywood and SpartanMalice and we agree that it's generally easier to get into the metagame when the Pokemon banlist would be smaller, in exchange for the ability banlist.

First off, a lot of Pokemon have been banned because Adaptability was too strong on them. Mamoswine, Terrakion, Bisharp and Weavile all got banned because of this, or partially because of this ability. Additionally, in the current metagame Latios is a small problem as well with its hugely powerful STAB moves, while pretty much everything with a good dual STAB can abuse it. The banning of Adaptability wouldn't really hurt the metagame either. Besides it making it a bit harder to break stall, because you have hugely powerful moves, it doesn't really have any good effect on the metagame, as it basically lets Pokemon stay the same, while only making them stronger. In return for this, we can unban Mamoswine and Terrakion, and have less problems with it on other Pokemon in the future.
these pokemon were not banned SOLELY due to adaptability. bisharp was banned because adapt, tough claws, and even dark aura pushed it to literally 6-0 stall teams(i would know, i 6-0ed klang with one) and literally had an offensive presence vs offense too with suckerpunch, mamoswine is on a similar boat, but trades setup capability for perhaps the best dual stab combo in the GAME. and on top of that, it could easily choose to hit ground weak mons, or ice weak mons harder by choosing either adapt, or refridge, its the most controversial of the four, as even i called for its drop, but alas, the rest of our council disagreed, terrak..was mostly due to adapt i'll admit, however tinted lens, scrappy, and tough claws still helped in the long run with its banning. weavile was actually due to refridge, not adapt. refridge weavile was impossible for offense to handle, as it had priority fake out, ice shard, and incredible speed mixed with a 100 base power refridge move. it was just too much. and lower down, ill point out ates in more detail, so just wait :P

I'll discuss this briefly, as the removal of Adaptability would easily allow Mamoswine and Terrakion to be unbanned already, but they don't seem like they would be overpowered in the current metagame. Mamoswine was banned on the premise that it could break stall easily, which doesn't seem to be true. Although it'd definitely be a threat, so are many Pokemon in the metagame. Stall also has Pokemon like Skarmory and Cresselia which can avoid the 2HKO (but barely). I agree that this would still make it too strong, but stall can easily use this metagame to beat it more easily. Suicune can run Poison Heal to avoid the 2HKO when used together with Protect, while stall teams that find themselves weak to Mamoswine can use Thick Fat, Delta Stream and Levitate to get specific resistances. This is likely to be useful in general, because if you can't handle Mamoswine well, chances are that you're weak to other Ground- or Ice-types. Finally, while Mamoswine has great STAB coverage, if it mispredicts when something like Suicune comes it, it will be forced out, so stall can also handle it this way, although its trickier. So in general, I wouldn't say Mamoswine is too good against stall, especially when you compare it to other wallbreakers like Adaptability Latios, but also things like Pangoro (read previous paragraph s_s).
the difference is mamo and terrak aren't complete fodder to offensive teams. sure, pangoro is a stallbreaker god, but its not like its easily splashable on a Hyper offensive team and just sweeps everything in sight. pangoro is nowhere NEAR terrakion and mamoswine in terms of role, as terrak and mamo can fit pangoros role, and STILL have room to scare offense.

Versus offense it's the general slow strong threat, with only Ice Shard differentiating it. I have no idea how it could be OP this way, as Ice Shard is weaker than most Refrigerate ESpeed users, and they can't outprioritize those. Balance is pretty much the same, as although they'll have some walls (often Suicune which doesn't mind Mamo as much) they will have something to revenge kill it or pressure it.

Terrakion is a bit more threatening due to its speed tier, so I could see it still being broken, but with how common Doublade is in the current metagame, which walls it and turns it into setup bait, it would often be turned into a liability. Although I won't argue for this too much, since it still has a decent speed tier vs offense, great STABs besides Doublade and the ability to set up with Swords Dance.
i dont think you were around during terrakion days, so ill expect you to not realise terrakion actually had more then one common set. adapt was the scariest, but people DID run scrappy to deal with doublade. id say it was its second common set too. it had taunt, swords dance, and dual stabs that have PERFECT coverage. and the abilitys pushed it over the top, even without adapt, it would probably still be too good with tough claws let alone the other 3 abilities it usually ran.

Also, the policy on -ates is atrocious. For some reason Aerilate got banned because it made Dragonite OP, and arguably Noivern. However, Refrigerate didn't get banned when it made Weavile OP and arguably Mamoswine. On paper, they're all equally threatening (honestly, I view Flying, Fairy and Ice as about equal offensive types), while two of the three got good users. On this basis it's strange that one did get banned, because it made two Pokemon OP, while another didn't. This leads to strange situations, for example that -Ate + Extreme Speed users can't use Aerilate, but can use Refrigerate and Pixilate, when you could argue that they are equal to each other on them. I'd prefer all three of them getting banned, as they buff a few specific Pokemon which get access to good Normal-type moves and not to equal moves of the typing it changes to. I want Pixilate to be banned as well, on the base that if you keep it, you still promote the inequality, since besides a few Pokemon, Refrigerate and Aerilate aren't necessarily OP either, as the three abilities are pretty much equal to each other on the average user. That said, there are two reasons that I'd want them all to get banned. The first of them is that I prefer the ability getting banned over the Pokemon, as having a specific additional ability banlist and Pokemon banlist is annoying for new users, as while the ability one is unavoidable, the Pokemon one is for many of the banned Pokemon, and they will understand that Regigigas, Slaking, etc. are OP, but I feel that it's better to keep it short for convenience. The other reason is that I feel that the offensive metagame (obviously not stall) is a lot of priority spam, which seems to be unhealthy for the metagame. The moment two offensive teams face each other, there's a good chance that the one with more, powerful priority will win, as offensive teams are unlikely to be able to take repeating strong hits. I feel like it's able to be handled right now, but the option to lessen it is good. Obviously, this would lead to Weavile being able to be unbanned, as both of its strong abilities: Refrigerate and Adaptability would be banned.
if you cant see the difference between ate extremespeed/boomburst, and refridgerate weavile...i question you...lmao. we are talking to different bans due to two different reasons. atespeed wasnt "OP" it was literally Gamebreaking. literally dragonite was on EVERY team. they chose(i wasnt around) to ban aerialate because they want ability diversity, they wanted atespeed to be a thing without banning all three abilities. and which, this brings me to my final bulk of my opinion. in a "almost any ability" meta, why would we ban abilities that makes SELECT POKEMON broken, thereby limiting potential sets of other pokemon who wouldnt be broken with said sets. this meta would become so one dimentional if you kept banning abilities that are "too good" and would literally just become more stale. your looking at it as if "banning abilities will bring diversity" when in reality, thats not true. if weaviles two best abilities were removed from it, but we kept it in, you know what happens? it sees no use, AND you just wasted about 10 pokemons potential sets. thats not "diverse" thats elimination. same with adapt, if you took away adapt, but brought terrakion back, you brought back a broken pokemon, at the expense of banning an ability that allthough might have some selectively broken pokemon who can use it, also stops pokemon like Tyranitar who would otherwise NEVER see use in this meta without it. explain to me why limiting abilities will help the meta. because as i see it, as a SUPPORTER of your opinions, all i see is someone saying "YOU BANNED SO MANY POKEMON DUE TO THE ABILITIES JUST BAN THE ABILITY GDI" without thinking about WHY they did it.

Finally, I want to comment on the other Pokemon which are currently banned: Keldeo and Smeargle. I won't talk about Shedinja as I feel Sturdy Shedinja would be dumb. Although you could easily prepare for it, it'd also overcentralize the metagame, but I know hollywood has a different opinion on that.
ill just touch base on shedinja here...shedinja turns the meta super passive. especially in a meta where everything is allready limited (for example, its not like every poke can run stealth rocks now) the meta would literally just become "beat shedinja and hope your team is decent enough for the meta trends to cope" it would be a terrible meta, and as a shedinja LOVER, i oppose shedinjas unbanning (or at least let it run magic guard pls ;~;).
I'll start with Smeargle as it is the less powerful one. I've always felt the old Prankster + Smeargle ban was a bit premature and didn't really account for it much besides theorymonning. Statistically, Smeargle is an extremely powerful Pokemon, but it obviously gets an enormous movepool, encompassing every move excluding Chatter and Struggle. This led people to think that it could be too good at leading mostly, but also at providing a safety net to most things, having Prankster Spore and Destiny Bond.

Smeargle still has the same problems as it always has. It has no offensive presence, so its easily taken advantage of when it has used Spore on something. Even Spore is able to be countered, as Grass-types (you can use Dark Void but accuracy) and especially Magic Bounce Pokemon have a field day against Smeargle. Actually, Magic Guard invalidates everything non-Mold Breaker Smeargle does, completely. Anyway, obviously, Smeargle would function as a good lead, being comparable to Deoxys-S, which trades Spore for offensive presence. However, once it has set the hazards, hazard removers can switch in for free, and even if you dont' have one, you can limit it to two hazards by just switching something in and KOing it. Neither Spore nor Destiny Bond should be a problem either, as we already have Prankster Spore users, and I feel an utility check would actually be good for the metagame, as it prevents random set-up sweepers from sweeping you, while Destiny Bond is a generally niche option, that can let you KO something, but if you mispredict it can let something set up. So, it's easy to take advantage of.

prankster smeargle was banned because the community. we unbanned it recently, but everyone basically was like "okay we changed our minds get it out" so we did. or at least that's how i remember it..
Smeargle also loses to opposing Prankster leads if they have Taunt, and it can't run all the moves it wants into one set. For example, Parting Shot would be really nice to pivot out, but you probably want hazards, Spore, Destiny Bond, Taunt, Topsy Turvy and a lot of other moves as well, so you have to choose moves carefully.

Finally Keldeo. It's not affected by any of the things I've said in this post, really (Surprising how so few changes can cut the banlist so much!) It is probably still too good for the metagame, but a suspect test if these things get implemented would be interesting. However, I still expect it to be broken, which also counts for Bisharp. Both of them keep really good sets (Primordial Sea and Tough Claws respectively) and would likely to be broken. Although it'd be nice to have a fast and strong Water-type in the metagame, it would likely be too good for the metagame, and thus its better to keep them banned at this point.

I hope these changes are considered, and I expect some opposition, but I also feel like they're reasonable enough. I don't feel it'd hurt the thread unless people are gonna shout at each other again, as it's been pretty dead, so a discussion about a controversial thing would be good!

bolded my responses...talking as a member, NOT as a supporter of said opinions i hold(for the most part).

for my final opinion, although there IS a bit of inconsistancy, the inconsistancy is mainly for "how can we make the tier diverse". we can go the "ban ability" direction, but limiting viable pokemon has never worked in ANY meta, and it wont work here. aerialate was banned because albeit dragonite and noivern MADE it OP, banning it didnt change the meta in a serious way. its not like losing aerialate made a bunch of pokemon lose their favorite sets or something. NOTHING used aerialate because gale wings is just so much better, and all flying types have good stabs anyways. adapt was kept in for the opposite reason, adapt makes SELECT pokemon broken, BUUUUUUUUUUT it had plenty of abusers who we feel arent NEARLY as bad as terrak, weav, and whatnot, and losing something that makes them good(like, 10 pokemon we are talking about), to bring back 2 pokemon isn't worth it in our eyes sorry.

 

[Snaquaza]

Lcass4919, I'll reply this way since I can't quote quotes.

For Adaptability, I acknowledged some of them had multiple overpowered sets. I didn't mention unbanning Bisharp, however the fact that Adaptability made it too strong still shows that it partially caused a Pokemon to be banned. In the cases of Mamoswine and Terrakion, it was the main threatening sets, and while the other sets were viable, this one pushed it to be "overpowered", while with Weavile it was a combination with Refrigerate, which I touched later-on.

Also I said that Terrakion was still decent vs offense and that Mamoswine had Ice Shard (which isn't that great), no need to point out that they're still okay then. If they're broken for beating stall though, their offensive matchup doesn't matter as much. By the way, I've been around since Gen 5 AAA and have seen Terrakion. Sure it can run Scrappy for Doublade, which seems like a good set if Adapt gets banned, but Adapt was the main thing which threatened a lot of things that are neutral to its STABs.

I never said -atespeed and Weavile were the same thing. I was just comparing that on -atespeed users (which I don't find healthy either, but won't get into that too much), all three abilities are just as good, as are they on most Pokemon when you don't consider STAB. Additionally, both Refrigerate and Aerilate have similar cases, and have been treated differently. This is probably a case where you misinterpreted me, as I never said -atespeed was as good as Refrigerate Weavile.

Eh Shedinja, I never said that it should be unbanned. No need to argue over that.

I feel that people just shouting that something is annoying is not a good way to approach bans. People just don't like to face Prankster Sleep, so if people just "changed their minds" for that reason, there's no good reason for it to be banned.

 

[Dr. Phd. BJ]

I think we should ban sleep, because it is annoying tbh adapt is like -atespeed in mix and mega. It is really good, but balances the meta a little bit. But honestly, adapt just makes things like Skymin, with base 127 speed, spam a base 240 seed flare that can lower SpeDef 40% of the time. It's pretty safe to say there are few switch-ins. Adapt makes the tier actually have ways to beat stuff, like crocune, which is the only thing preventing it from ban. I'd say to ban it and maybe resuspect some threats, maybe not. -Atespeed is a topic i don't really care about, it doesn't kill any specific play style, or most of the tier like Skymin. In fact, it provides a way to revenge those threats, but idk.

 

[Grim]

I think banning Adaptability would be cool. The ability itself itself isn't that broken but it sure pushed a lot of already good Pokemon over the edge and it would be nice to have them back as additional teambuilding options. I don't agree with banning Refrigerate and Pixilate, however, because while they are good abilities they they don't even come close to how good Aerilate was coupled with its abusers (Dragonite and Noivern). They just don't have good enough users to break them and I don't think they should be put in the same boat as Aerilate. It's true that offense against offense often comes down to priority wars but I don't believe banning Refrigerate and Pixilate would get rid of that. Especially Fairy-type Extremespeed isn't even that valuable because it hits three types super effectively, and can't be compared to Refrigerate Extremespeed. Even without those abilities there is more than enough strong priority for everyone, such as Gale Wings, (still) Extremespeed but with Tough Claws or just item-boosted, and Sucker Punches from Absol and Zoroark. Then there's the question if we even should try to to fix that 'issue' to make it more fun because objectively there's nothing wrong with it, it's just how the meta is and it's not like the one with more priority autowins or something.

Also Prankster Smeargle is something we've had for a long time, it's not broken and especially not with the new Baton Pass clause lol.

 

[xRoyUltra]

Why was Smeargle banned?

 

[Iynhe]

Prankster, of course.

 

[Funbot28]

Guess will leave some opinions over here:

Adaptability:
Adaptability is undoubtedly one of the best abilities to chose in AAA atm besides Gale Wings and Poison Heal. it has been the reason for many of the previous bans such as Mamoswine, Terrakion, and mostly the case for Bisharp and Keldeo (even though they still are able to run other effective abilities). This ability really creates a next level of power for most mons, due to them being able to spam there powerful STABs which sometimes have unresisted coverage. I feel like this ability has been overlooked for the longest time, and has a great correlation between the reason why most of the mons have gotten banned. I think this is the ability besides Gale Wings, which makes the meta heavily influenced by offense, as finding defensive answers to these mons abusing this ability is hard to come by. The ability clause has alleviated this a bit, but I still feel that the amount of power this ability brings to numerous mons is quite overwhelming, and should at least be considered for a suspect test.

So looking at the ban list if Adaptability would get banned, here is what I think could get retested:

: Still broken with abilities like Sheer Force and Gale Wings

: Still broken with any ability really

: ^

: ^

: I am still not sure. Tough Claws might be a little hard to deal with, but we still have powerful -ate abusers and Sheer Force users that would dish out more damage.

: Same as Bisharp. Primordial Sea/Drizzle might still be annoying to face, but the rise of more Desolate Land mons may make it manageable. It is also weak to Gale Wings, and rise in usage in Latios and Skymin

: Sturdinja is stupid

: Now that the Baton Clause has been nerfed again. Smeargle may actually be fine in the meta. Although Prankster Sleep would still be really annoying.

: I think Terrakion could possibly be retested. Could still use Sheer Force and Tough Claws, but stuff like Skarmory and Doublade still deal with it.

: Refrigerate still broken.

: Refrigerate for Mamo might also be too much, but low speed and defenses might alleviate that, due to highly offensive meta.

tl;dr Ban Adaptability, retest Keldeo, Bisharp, Mamoswine, Terrakion and Prankster Smeargle