Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

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Okay. It's been a while since I log in into my Smogon account. I've been busy lately. Since there's a Chatter suspect and I meet the reqs, I see why not? Here are my thoughts.

What makes a metagame popular? Because it is fun? Because it is balanced? Yes, all of them are correct, however, what attracts people to play a metagame is they are desirable. Of course, every people has their own definition of what's a good metagame and not, so "desirable" is something subjective. However, from what I've observed so far, there are three main points that makes a metagame desirable.
1. Fun. Probably the most important point. Inheritance is a metagame with lots of room for creativity. Every pokemon has like 2-3 viable sets. This is probably one of the main reasons why Inheritance is a fun metagame because you can always discover new ideas. Chatter is one of the moves that makes the metagame "no fun" because it annoys people. This is also why people cries about Whimsicott in No Guard Galaxy, Prankster Sleep + Subseed isn't broken, but it's SOOO annoying that people want it banned.
2. Competitive. An important point that is linked to point #1. Luck is a part of the metagame, but do people like it when you win because of crits or confusion hax? This is why swagger is banned. Competitiveness is also part of the fun and luck takes it away. I believe Chatter fulfills this category. Not only it has few counters, the fact that you can buy free turns because of LUCK is what makes it uncompetitive. And one turn is very important because in that turn, Chatot inheritirs can set up to break you Special Wall or something.
3. Balance. The least important aspect I think, but still important, because it's pointless if a metagame is balanced but not enjoyable. It won't attract people. However, if there's one element that is too good so that everyone are forced use it to the point that it takes away the FUN of the metagame (point number one), it must be removed. Unbalanced elements are what people call "broken." In this case, Chatter doesn't break the metagame.

In this case, even though Chatter doesn't break the metagame, it is unfun and uncompetitive (in my view at least). For this reason I'm voting ban.

On topic about Hoopa C, I don't believe it to be broken. Of course you can't counter every Hoopa set, it applies to every pokemon here, but there's specific counters for each sets (except maybe Protean, but it's Protean). The Adaptability Porygon-Z set is walled by most Dark types, while the Super Luck set people are talking about is walled by Meloetta (Togekiss doesn't get Dark Pulse). Non Psyshock variants are walled either by Goodra or Florges. It's also slow, easily killable because having 2 4x weakness and bad Physical Defense. There are reasons why Hoopa is ranked B+ in Viability rankings, not even A.
 
Bisharp @ Life Orb / Black Glasses / Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Spikes
- Substitute / Poison Jab / Synthesis

I would like to share with you a nice stallbreaker, Water Absorb Bisharp. Props to you if you figured out this inherited from Maractus I see you are a pokemon dictionary. Aside from that, with immunity to toxic, scald, psychic and burns if you use substitute, this Bisharp can set up spikes on Suicune and Cresselia, two very common mons you would find in stall. Also people think their suicune is a counter to bisharp; which they are, since knock off doesn't do jack to cune, so you can set up spikes on it. So far one magic bounce inheritors that I found are quite common are Chansey and Cresselia, I haven't seen cress yet but last time around there are many CM/Recover/W-O-W/Psyshock cress so I could imagine it being more popular sooner or later, and bisharp completely walls psychic wow ones with sub and can just spam knock off until it switches. Chansey does not like knock off and you really wouldn't expect spikes from bisharp so they generally do not switch in and if they do you can knock off their eviolite for your other mons. Sucker punch is just a good move in general, it gets stab and this is still bisharp. I personally use sub as my last move and either lefties or black glasses because I don't enjoy LO recoil but you can use LO and poison jab, synthesis or some other coverage like bullet seed although that still does like 30 to cune and sub is nice to avoid wisps from the aforementioned mega eye cress.
 
Hoopa-C's Special Attack in the damage calculator is mistakenly listed as 151, when it should be 150.

Also, if you're running Vest Drapion/Skuntank just to get rid of Hoopa, here's another good bet.

Beedrill-Mega (Skuntank/Drapion) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake/U-Turn
Where are you getting Earthquake from? Drill Run maybe.
 
Inheriting from Murkrow (Mean Look, Perish Song, Roost) has actually been pretty nice. Kind of a one trick pony though, its super easy to block (ghosts, illusion, magic bounce) if you've battled against your opponent already. I've been using it on Porygon2 to take out unaware mons that my setup sweepers cant deal with.
 
this seems like a great metagame

Swoobat (Latios) (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
- Giga Drain

use 1st turn simple boosted calm mind, already at 100 bp for stored power. you can stay in and do another calm mind, which makes stored power have 180 bp topkek, mega evolve and sweep........ :)

holy shit its another stored power thing

Clefable (Cresselia) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stored Power
- Cosmic Power
- Moonlight
- Moonblast/Calm Mind

top kek this is your classic wall cresselia, cosmic power works well with Stored Power, and moonlight is there to heal yourself. magic guard says fuck you to statuses and hazards, and you could have moonblast for dark types or if you would want to theres always calm mind to boost stored power damage output.
 
Swoobat (Latios) (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
- Giga Drain

use 1st turn simple boosted calm mind, already at 100 bp for stored power. you can stay in and do another calm mind, which makes stored power have 180 bp topkek, mega evolve and sweep........ :)
Use Life Orb, it's better than Mega Latios. It's carp.
 
Primal-Kyogre (Thundurus-Therian) @ Life Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EV's: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Thunder
-Origin Pulse/Surf/Water spout
-Ice beam
-Calm Mind

Most people use primalOgre on water types for the good STABs, however I'm fond of it on a powerful special electric type like ThundT, because of STAB Thunder and good coverage with pseudo STAB water moves and ice beam. Very powerful special wallbreaker.

Also here's a weird set:
Dragalge (ThundT) @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EV's : 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Thunderbolt
-HP Flying
-Surf
-Draco Meteor/ Dragon Pulse/ Slidge Wave

Similar role, only with stronger STAB and different coverage. HP flying seems like a bad idea although with adaptability it's a 120BP Flying move, stronger than Areoblast coverage.

Trying to be creative never hurts, eh?
 
You'd be better off inheriting from Lugia on that Thundurus T set, as OK the Thunderbolt won't be as strong but you also get STAB Aeroblast, Earth Power, Ice Beam for BoltBeam, Roost (or Recover if you'd prefer to keep your Flying type), Multiscale to sponge a hit at full HP and Calm Mind.
 
Primal-Kyogre (Thundurus-Therian) @ Life Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EV's: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Thunder
-Origin Pulse/Surf/Water spout
-Ice beam
-Calm Mind

Most people use primalOgre on water types for the good STABs, however I'm fond of it on a powerful special electric type like ThundT, because of STAB Thunder and good coverage with pseudo STAB water moves and ice beam. Very powerful special wallbreaker.

Also here's a weird set:
Dragalge (ThundT) @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EV's : 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Thunderbolt
-HP Flying
-Surf
-Draco Meteor/ Dragon Pulse/ Slidge Wave

Similar role, only with stronger STAB and different coverage. HP flying seems like a bad idea although with adaptability it's a 120BP Flying move, stronger than Areoblast coverage.

Trying to be creative never hurts, eh?


Thundurus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Agility

Adaptability LO with Bolt beam + HP flying gives you pretty neat coverage, and coupled with either agility/nasty plot you can essentially pick and choose what you want to beat, offence or balance. EVs are for the Agility set as they outspend Escadrill in sand (however relevant that might be), and Mega Gyarados before it DDs. If running Nasty plot, 12 in HP, 252+ Sp.tk and 244 in Speed is also another EV option, as it'll allow you to escape the 3HKO from Seismic toss and outspend anything below 299

Thundurus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 232 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Bulk Up

This is the lord set, run this everyone. (Pack something for Cune(Can't believe I'm saying that))
 
So I've had a lot of fun with this mon. He's got a lot of utility and works well as an anti-lead.

Crobat (Parasect) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab

Certainly not the ridiculous level of power of a lot of mons floating around, but he does a lot and does it well. Here's what he does on my team:
  • Fast sleep eases prediction for questionable lead situation.
  • Knock off + Spore neutralizes Chansey pretty well.
  • Dry Skin deals with primordial sea XXX, also bulky scald mons
  • Spore + poison jab takes care of M-altaria.
Shortcomings I've found:
  • Magic Bounce completely ruins momentum
  • Doesn't hit very hard
  • Any priority at all
Thoughts?
 
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Not sure if this is just an oversight, but apparently Wobbuffet and Gothitelle can inherit from MGar?
murders like every stall poke lol
Here's a battle I just did, Goth was used turns 19-22 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-292587407
Pretty sure it's intended, inheriting Shadow Tag is banned on mons that don't have it naturally but the ones that do have Shadow Tag by themselves can inherit freely from each other.
 
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass

(Blaziken)

Hi all! Why this set is banned? :o
 
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass

(Blaziken)

Hi all! Why this set is banned? :o
In OU, you can't pass speed + another stat (attack in this case). Think it's in Inh too
 
Thundurus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 232 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Bulk Up

This is the lord set, run this everyone. (Pack something for Cune(Can't believe I'm saying that))
Bulky setup with a move that drops SpD? A bit risky one might say.
And probly might as well run Braviary for the higher Atk and bulk right?
Pretty sure it's intended, inheriting Shadow Tag is banned on mons that don't have it naturally but the ones that do have Shadow Tag by themselves can inherit freely from each other.
i forgot this rule existed. So does that mean BellyJet Medicham exists? Here we go:

Azumarill (Medicham) @ Medichamite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EV's: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Adamant or Jolly nature
-Belly Drum
-Aqua Jet
-Superpower
-Knock Off/ Play Rough

Nuff said
 
i forgot this rule existed. So does that mean BellyJet Medicham exists? Here we go:
btw, you can inherit belly drum + espeed from linoone, but his coverage moves are kinda ass so unaware kinda screws you over.

Of course, you could run Goth or Wobb to perish trap those unaware users lol
 
Bulky setup with a move that drops SpD? A bit risky one might say.
And probly might as well run Braviary for the higher Atk and bulk right?

i forgot this rule existed. So does that mean BellyJet Medicham exists? Here we go:

Azumarill (Medicham) @ Medichamite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EV's: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Adamant or Jolly nature
-Belly Drum
-Aqua Jet
-Superpower
-Knock Off/ Play Rough

Nuff said

This is actually legal even without this rule since you get pure power from the mega stone not from azu

Also if you are going for priority and belly drum I would recommend Linoone
while it has crappy coverage only steels,rocks,ghosts,and random unaware users are going to live a extreme speed after belly drum
 
This is actually legal even without this rule since you get pure power from the mega stone not from azu

Also if you are going for priority and belly drum I would recommend Linoone
while it has crappy coverage only steels,rocks,ghosts,and random unaware users are going to live a extreme speed after belly drum
Lol I'm dumb
ESpeed obviously sounds good right away, but I guess the point of this set was to make a setup wall breaker who could beat Suicune/ unware and only fighting STAB will do that which Linoone can't offer.

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 235-277 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unaware is kinda on your side, ignoring stat drops from Superpower and allowing the 2HKO. After Suicune dies, MCham can just look for an opportunity to force something out, drum, and clean. It could be effective given the right team support.
 
Sooo... there's nothing in the rules that says that mons with the same ability can inherit from one another. The rules even state the opposite.

So why the hell is perishTrap wobbufet legal? Not only is there absolutely no reason for it to be legal, but it's also fucking retarded. It has access to perish song, counter (which gengar does learn contrary to what phione seems to believe) and destiny bond so it can get a kill almost every game and just completely shit on stall.
 
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Sooo... there's nothing in the rules that says that mons with the same ability can inherit from one another. The rules even state the opposite.

So why the hell is perishTrap wobbufet legal? Not only is there absolutely no reason for it to be legal, but it's also fucking retarded. It has access to perish song, counter and destiny bond so it can get a kill almost every game and just completely shit on stall.
Rules do not state the opposite; they state that inheriting Shadow Tag is banned, which is vague and does not cover this particular case.

As it is, the legality check's process probably goes like this:
1. check if moves+ability are learned by any mon in the game (perishtrapwobb passes because Mega Gengar)
2. check if any of the ability or moves are banned (passed again because the check sees Shadow Tag, which is a natural ability so the check probably thinks you just inherited from yourself)
3. check if donor clause is respected

I don't know if allowing it is intentional or not, it kinda makes sense for mons that naturally have a banned ability to inherit the moves from other mons while keeping that same ability (say Dugtrio that wants to inherit from Trapinch or something of the likes) but at the same time you're technically inheriting an ability which is explicitly not inheritable by the rules, so there's that. If it's intentional I'd say we can keep the general rule, but suspect PerishTrapWobb (or just Shadow Tag as a whole) because it is pretty dumb; if it isn't, fix it and that solves the problem.
 
Rules do not state the opposite; they state that inheriting Shadow Tag is banned, which is vague and does not cover this particular case.

As it is, the legality check's process probably goes like this:
1. check if moves+ability are learned by any mon in the game (perishtrapwobb passes because Mega Gengar)
2. check if any of the ability or moves are banned (passed again because the check sees Shadow Tag, which is a natural ability so the check probably thinks you just inherited from yourself)
3. check if donor clause is respected

I don't know if allowing it is intentional or not, it kinda makes sense for mons that naturally have a banned ability to inherit the moves from other mons while keeping that same ability (say Dugtrio that wants to inherit from Trapinch or something of the likes) but at the same time you're technically inheriting an ability which is explicitly not inheritable by the rules, so there's that. If it's intentional I'd say we can keep the general rule, but suspect PerishTrapWobb (or just Shadow Tag as a whole) because it is pretty dumb; if it isn't, fix it and that solves the problem.

I believe it was never legal actually. Iirc there was a discussion about this in this thread many pages ago when this was OMotM in April and this shouldn't be allowed. Snaquaza, can you confirm this?
 
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