rip
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Battle Spot - Simple Questions and Answers
- Thread starter Age of Kings
- Start date
rip
Thanks to all for the wonderful suggestions. Mega Sableye is definitely worth considering, even though I have a Mega, it doesn't hurt to have another one to use in certain situations. I have a Rocky Helmet Cresselia, so unfortunately I can't use that Serperior. Regular Sableye seems pretty good, too, since I have an open lefties spot on my team, and nothing else with Taunt.
Because the special format didnt have a huge playerbase so hitting top 50 doesnt mean all that much. Weird players can still influence the usage stats and lots of people love eeveelution teams for whatever reason.
Yeah lol my first teams were eeveelution teams too xd, so bad. I sometimes see half eeveelutions tam though that work pretty good.
Do I really need to worry about landing 0 Speed on Mega Steelix? It's already Brave nature, which is -Speed, and is a Curse set. After a Curse I'm sure it makes no difference, but right off the bat am I going to be missing a lot of Gyro Ball power if I don't absolutely have 0?
I'd definately aim for 0 Speed IVs. Even after a Curse the Base Power difference is noticable:
(31 IVs) 252+ Atk Mega Steelix Gyro Ball (82 BP) vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 76-90 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(0 IVs) 252+ Atk Mega Steelix Gyro Ball (119 BP) vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 109-129 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(31 IVs) +1 252+ Atk Mega Steelix Gyro Ball (123 BP) vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 169-199 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(0 IVs) +1 252+ Atk Mega Steelix Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 205-243 (101.9 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The difference increases the lower the target's Speed. The difference can be as much as 50 BP even after a Curse.
Last edited:
as Carbonific said, aim for 0 if you want Gyro Ball.
I usually opt for Heavy Slam for the more consistent damage as you'll be hitting 120 BP more often than Gyro Ball's max BP of 150, since Gyro Ball can be upset by those super slow tanks out there. But to each their own.
I usually opt for Heavy Slam for the more consistent damage as you'll be hitting 120 BP more often than Gyro Ball's max BP of 150, since Gyro Ball can be upset by those super slow tanks out there. But to each their own.
Well I'm not 31 IVs but I ran some calcs myself and yeah, even at 2 Speed IVs you're looking at a 3% difference in damage, that's pretty substantial. I'll be going for 0 then. My parent is already a 0 anyway, I was just trying to take the lazy way out
Gyro Ball OHKOs Mega Kangaskhan after a Curse tho, it's C A $ H
In all seriousness I'll probably be using a Heavy Slam set on the imperfect speed Steelix I've already got.
In this meta, Steelix can't deal with the slow tanks even with Heavy Slam, as they are often as heavy as him. In a hyper-offense filled, fast-paced format, it's better to have Gyro Ball imo.
Gyro Ball is definitely the far more commonly used option according to usage stats, since it wrecks the super fast mega threats, like Kanga, Lopunny, and Salamence. I would probably select a different mega when facing against a bulky stall team. But regardless, don't forget you also have STAB Earthquake with comparable power, and you're able to increase Gyro Ball strength with Curse, which comes in handy against specific threats (which granted, is not all of them).
OK, this is probably a completely ridiculous idea for a Pokemon, so I want to get some input before I commit to training it. My idea is a Calm Milotic with Hydro Pump, Recover, Dragon Pulse, and Psych Up. The idea here is to take advantage of Calm Mind users-Suicune and Mega Sableye specifically, as Suicune can't hit even neutrally, meaning you can beat it quite easily even if you switch in when it's at +6, and Sableye can actually help you by triggering Marvel Scale. Of course, counting on one of two Pokemon to use Calm Mind so you can copy it isn't good enough, but I found an EV spread-188 HP/ 172 Def/ 44 SpA/ 100 SpD/ 4 Spe-that seems to do pretty good. I actually took notes on how much damage some common Pokemon can do, and how much they take from Hydro Pump or Dragon Pulse(though Dragon Pulse is typically inferior-another move may be best), some of the most noteworthy are 252+SpA Aegislash'e Shadow Ball only 4HKOing after Lefties recovery, it 2HKOs if it's Weakness Policy has been activated already. 252 +Atk LO Aegislash's Shadow Claw has only a 56.6% chance to 2HKO, it's a 3HKO if Aegi doesn't have a L:ife Orb. Dragon Pulse has an 84.4% chance to 2HKO 4/0 Naive Garchomp, you lose that match up because Garchomp is faster, but at least it doesn't get away unscathed. Milotic will also survive a single Choice Band boosted Outrage from 252 Atk Garchomp. 252 +Atk Mega kangaskhan 2HKOs w/ Double-Edge, and gets 2HKOd in return(this is noteworthy in the event that it's paralyzed.) I have a lot of calcs wwith variants of Gengar-suffice to say Milotic does quite well against it. I'm running the least SpA necessary to guarantee an OHKO on Mega Blaziken when Hydro Pump hits, in order to have more for bulk. No variant of Blaziken OHKOs, except maybe regular Blazie with LO or CB. The bulky set listed on the Smogon Analysis page for Blaziken cannot OHKO at +6 if it's only attack is Blaze Kick, and that doesn'teven 2HKO at +2. Lastly, I have Mega Salamence, which doesn't OHKO w/ Double-Edge with 252 Atk and a nature that doesn't boost it, and Adamant only has an 18.8% chance to OHKO. Mmilotic can hit back with Dragon Pulse, which does pretty good damage and will leave Salamence mostly dead after it takes recoil damage. Milotic also fares quite well against Lando-T. Of course, there are still problems with Rotom-W and some others, so I don't know if this idea is worthy anything, but I think it might work.
WHoa calm down there that's a lot to break down
Now Psych Up is a cool move, but Milotic has several issues
Let's see:
Suicune can just burn you with Scald PP stall you with Pressure. You can lose this match up over time if you aren't careful. It might be possible to win with timer into account, but Suicune can easily just time Rest at when the timer's about to run out. Or even worse, you could run into Roar Suicune.
Sableye can win 1v1 due to burn since Marvel Scale does nothing vs it (and is really not that great of a coverage against physical attackers because the constant residual damage kinda offsets it).
Other stat uppers include:
Porygon2+ Download: You're either copying +1 Attack or Pory2 has +1 SpAtk and will dent you with Discharges.
Thundurus + Nasty Plot: No
Raikou + Calm Mind: No
Serperior + Leaf Storm: No
Volcarona + Quiver Dance: This one you can beat.
Sylveon + Calm Mind: It'll still beat you since its spdef is too high to be taken down by Hydro Pumps, and Dragon Pulse doesn't affect it.
Lucario + Nasty Plot: Pretty sure Milotic dies to +2 Focus Blast.
Mega Slowbro + Calm Mind: You can't crit it and it'll just win the crit war vs you.
Cloyster + Shell Smash: Could be hilarious if you can get it to work. Seems hard though. Also you can't switch Milotic to check this with Psych Up cuz +2 Rock Blast does too much damage
Glalie + Moody: It'll just Sheer Cold you
Clefable + Calm Mind + Minimize: Standstill for a while but Clefable eventually wins because you have less PP.
So umm...outside of checking Volcarona, what does this do exactly?
Now Psych Up is a cool move, but Milotic has several issues
Let's see:
Suicune can just burn you with Scald PP stall you with Pressure. You can lose this match up over time if you aren't careful. It might be possible to win with timer into account, but Suicune can easily just time Rest at when the timer's about to run out. Or even worse, you could run into Roar Suicune.
Sableye can win 1v1 due to burn since Marvel Scale does nothing vs it (and is really not that great of a coverage against physical attackers because the constant residual damage kinda offsets it).
Other stat uppers include:
Porygon2+ Download: You're either copying +1 Attack or Pory2 has +1 SpAtk and will dent you with Discharges.
Thundurus + Nasty Plot: No
Raikou + Calm Mind: No
Serperior + Leaf Storm: No
Volcarona + Quiver Dance: This one you can beat.
Sylveon + Calm Mind: It'll still beat you since its spdef is too high to be taken down by Hydro Pumps, and Dragon Pulse doesn't affect it.
Lucario + Nasty Plot: Pretty sure Milotic dies to +2 Focus Blast.
Mega Slowbro + Calm Mind: You can't crit it and it'll just win the crit war vs you.
Cloyster + Shell Smash: Could be hilarious if you can get it to work. Seems hard though. Also you can't switch Milotic to check this with Psych Up cuz +2 Rock Blast does too much damage
Glalie + Moody: It'll just Sheer Cold you
Clefable + Calm Mind + Minimize: Standstill for a while but Clefable eventually wins because you have less PP.
The way Milotic's HP and defenses is set up makes it just better to max it out before putting points into bulk.
Not really a relevant info =/
So umm...outside of checking Volcarona, what does this do exactly?
OK, this was a stretch, even for me. Psych Up has the potential to be great, but it depends on too much to be successful. The problem isn't that there aren't enough boosting Pokes, it's that there aren't enough defensive boosters(or Pokemon that boost an attacking stat and the corresponding defensive stat simultaneously, i.e Calm Mind or Curse.) I think I'm just going to use a Clefable because stat boosters annoy me. I don't know why I suggested Milotic, there are plenty of Pokemon that can learn Psych Up, and Milotic isn't the best. Are there actually any viable users of Psych Up? It's not standard by any means, but it also doesn't seem like as much of a gimmick as Wonder Room or something.
So I ctrl+f'd the PS stats page for BSS and the only 4 users of Psych Up were Murkrow, Mighyena, Luvdic and Wormadam-S, lol. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Psych Up is a really silly gimmick that you shouldn't bother with. If you're that scared of stat boosters then why not bring a phaser or something with Haze? There's also Unaware mons like Clefable and Quagsire that you can try. There's also Taunt, and Toxic puts a clock on a lot of booster's heads. You can also use something with Focus Sash to revenge pretty much all of the offensive boosters. Something like Stallbreaker Talonflame deals with a lot of the defensive boosters as well...
Is Quagsire really a thing? I heard someone else mention it for BSS but other than Unaware, isn't it kind of outclassed by Swampert/Gastrodon? I guess it could be that it fills a different niche. Just wondering what's the most effective set/way to use it, since its stats are kind of poopy.
Yeah I don't know how people manage to get it to work, but I've run into it a few times and it can be really annoying if you didn't bring something to kill it. I've seen it run Yawn + Infestation, Stockpile + Unaware can make it actually pretty bulky if given the chance to setup, it can also Encore you into something dumb if you aren't careful. People usually get past Grass-types by pairing it with Mega Gengar. Because of Unaware, it can usually come in on a boosted mon and get a crucial Yawn off, which either pseudo-phases it or allows a teammate to revenge / set up against it. It's definitely not a fantastic mon but yeah like I said some people get it to work lol.
Typing walls a lot of physical attackers (most don't use Grass moves, at all), the bulk with Impish 252/252 is just barely enough to keep a few mons from 2HKOing, and boosted mons mean nothing (SD Talonflame, SD Garchomp, DD Gyarados if it still exists, stuff like that). Like Clefable, but better physical bulk / pretty good typing and Recover. Special bulk is shit without AV (meaning, no Recover, therefor useless) or Stockpile, so Clefable has something there.
And Yawn, Yawn is fucking annoying.
What are all the Pokemon that can viably use an Assault Vest? The item is really good , and it would be nice to know all the Pokemon it works well with. It seems like there are hundreds of Pokemon that could make good use of it, if not in Battle Spot then elsewhere, but maybe that's just my imagination.
Mamoswine is probably the most common. AV lets it take on Thundurus and other electric types better than it already does. Plus being bulkier gives it more turns to survive and fish for fissures.
Azumarill is a decent one, AV helps out its already good bulk.
AV Conk is really common, conks pretty bulky but its spdef is meh normally so AV helps it out a lot.
AV Thund-T has some usage, helps it take on opposing Thundurus a bit better. Especially if it's non hp ice thunds that have been getting popular lately.
AV is exca's most used item. I dont know too much about av exca but i guess it helps with thund as well. And can use the extra bulk to get off more horn drills.
Entei runs AV sometimes, i guess with sacred fire burns you're taking less damage from physical and special attacks so thats cool.
AV hera has been seen on a few high rated stall teams, it can take status with guts and can pursuit gengar after getting a boost from wisp.
I have a Conkeldurr that's meant to use an AV, but I wouldn't have thought of some of those. Mamoswine's mediocre bulk compared to a lot of AV users, and it's bad defensive typing, mean I wouldn't expect to see an AV Mamo, and I'm certainly not planning to use one, but it actually is Mamo's second most common item.
Azumarill is definitely a threatening Pokemon. However, when I'm trying to decide if my team is safe from it, I always consider Belly Drum Azumarill, since I find that most threatening. I've actually never been swept by one, though, which is ironic.
The PGL says Exca runs LO quite a bit more often than AV, so I'm curious as to where you're getting your data. Either way, I don't see AV Exca as being all that great. It's extremely dependent on sand w/o a Scarf, and frail on the physical side. I just don't see much reason to use it, Haxorus is probably better at using Mold Breaker for Rotoms, despite not having STAB, and Mega Chomp is better for abusing Sandstorm. It does, however, completely outclass Sandslash.
I got an above average Entei, but I was very put off when I learned Extremespeed is event-only, which is probably why I never used it. Using AV on it definitely sems like a good idea, though.
Heracross seems like it would be a very poor choice for an AV, considering it's quite a bit bulkier on the special side than the physical. Being able to benefit from Wisp and then chase Gengar on it's way out is good(I've never actually used Pursuit, but I know how it works), and obviously the burn will cripple you if you mega evolve, so an AV makes some sense to keep Guts, but I see no real reason to run that over AV Conk.
Could Samurott, Omastar, or Wailord use it? They all have access to Scald, good, or at least decent, defense, and reasonably good offensive movepools. What do you think about AV Scrafty? It deals very well with status if you run Shed Skin, and has gigantic special bulk, and enough physical bulk to take CB Talonflame's Brave Bird. I'm pretty much positive I should use Drain Punch/ Knock Off/ Ice Punch, but should the last slot be Counter(particularly for Talonflame, though others as well), a Rock type attack(that would also deal with Talon, and also Rotom-H and some stuff like that), Super Fang(pretty good against anything, especially with Dark coverage already,) Zen Headbutt(mainly for a chance against Mega Venusaur, especially if it's paralyzed), or PuP(increasing attack also increases how much Drain Punch will heal?) I guess Thunderpunch would work, too, since it causes great harm to Azumarill and Gyarados.
Azumarill is definitely a threatening Pokemon. However, when I'm trying to decide if my team is safe from it, I always consider Belly Drum Azumarill, since I find that most threatening. I've actually never been swept by one, though, which is ironic.
The PGL says Exca runs LO quite a bit more often than AV, so I'm curious as to where you're getting your data. Either way, I don't see AV Exca as being all that great. It's extremely dependent on sand w/o a Scarf, and frail on the physical side. I just don't see much reason to use it, Haxorus is probably better at using Mold Breaker for Rotoms, despite not having STAB, and Mega Chomp is better for abusing Sandstorm. It does, however, completely outclass Sandslash.
I got an above average Entei, but I was very put off when I learned Extremespeed is event-only, which is probably why I never used it. Using AV on it definitely sems like a good idea, though.
Heracross seems like it would be a very poor choice for an AV, considering it's quite a bit bulkier on the special side than the physical. Being able to benefit from Wisp and then chase Gengar on it's way out is good(I've never actually used Pursuit, but I know how it works), and obviously the burn will cripple you if you mega evolve, so an AV makes some sense to keep Guts, but I see no real reason to run that over AV Conk.
Could Samurott, Omastar, or Wailord use it? They all have access to Scald, good, or at least decent, defense, and reasonably good offensive movepools. What do you think about AV Scrafty? It deals very well with status if you run Shed Skin, and has gigantic special bulk, and enough physical bulk to take CB Talonflame's Brave Bird. I'm pretty much positive I should use Drain Punch/ Knock Off/ Ice Punch, but should the last slot be Counter(particularly for Talonflame, though others as well), a Rock type attack(that would also deal with Talon, and also Rotom-H and some stuff like that), Super Fang(pretty good against anything, especially with Dark coverage already,) Zen Headbutt(mainly for a chance against Mega Venusaur, especially if it's paralyzed), or PuP(increasing attack also increases how much Drain Punch will heal?) I guess Thunderpunch would work, too, since it causes great harm to Azumarill and Gyarados.
https://gyazo.com/f690ac43ec2a1a65c166b4bd8134ff81
I'm looking at singles stats, you're looking at stats across all formats.
Scrafty doesnt live CB Brave Bird if you're Shed Skin. But it's a decent niche mon I guess as a fighting type that can deal with cress sorta.
I don't see what sets Samurott and especially Wailord apart from other Water types? Almost every water type gets scald and good movepools.
I was looking through the water types that get Scald, and the three I mentioned seem fairly well suited to it. I was positive I was looking at singles, since that's the only meta I've played, sorry about the confusion. I guess I forgot to change the ability from the default, Intimidate, so the damage calculator was showing -1 CB Talon's Brave Bird, though with regular attack, even 252+ Sharp Beak Talon OHKOs w/ BB. What move do you think wold be best in the fourth slot for Scrafty? I'm currently using Counter, is that the best?
Speaking of AV, is Chandelure a reasonable user? It's not at all common, and AV is one of its least used items, but I think it could really benefit my team with Clear Smog(mainly for Minimize Clefable, though 68 Spe out speeds 0 Spe Suicune, letting me reset it's boosts), and it doesn't need any SpA to OHKO 4/0 Mega Gengar with Shadow Ball, and AV means it's not too hard to find an EV spread that has a good chance to survive Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball(thinking 204 HP/ 236 SpD/ 68 Spe.) Chandelure resists Volcarona's STABs, and ruins its Quiver Dance boosts with Clear Smog. It's immune to burn, and wouldn't care too much about being burned anyways, which is another huge benefit for my team. It'd provide grass coverage for my team, which I don't currently have, and screws over Venusaur lacking Earthquake or Sleep Powder. Mega Sableye, another threat to my team, loses it's precious boosts. Lastly, I should mention that my team has no trouble with Garchomp and Mega Kanga(for the most part), so I could definitely afford to run AV Chandelure over Scrafty. Thoughts?
BTW, here's a rather hilarious replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-
this one's better 303584119http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-303588531
Speaking of AV, is Chandelure a reasonable user? It's not at all common, and AV is one of its least used items, but I think it could really benefit my team with Clear Smog(mainly for Minimize Clefable, though 68 Spe out speeds 0 Spe Suicune, letting me reset it's boosts), and it doesn't need any SpA to OHKO 4/0 Mega Gengar with Shadow Ball, and AV means it's not too hard to find an EV spread that has a good chance to survive Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball(thinking 204 HP/ 236 SpD/ 68 Spe.) Chandelure resists Volcarona's STABs, and ruins its Quiver Dance boosts with Clear Smog. It's immune to burn, and wouldn't care too much about being burned anyways, which is another huge benefit for my team. It'd provide grass coverage for my team, which I don't currently have, and screws over Venusaur lacking Earthquake or Sleep Powder. Mega Sableye, another threat to my team, loses it's precious boosts. Lastly, I should mention that my team has no trouble with Garchomp and Mega Kanga(for the most part), so I could definitely afford to run AV Chandelure over Scrafty. Thoughts?
BTW, here's a rather hilarious replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-
this one's better 303584119http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-303588531
Last edited:
On a more abstract note:
I have read somewhere that an assaultvestuser should be threatening enough without a boosting move so should have a kind of high attack or special attack stat and should have enough bulk cause otherwise the extra bulk is not enough, mostly because they have no means of recovery (other than drain punch conkeldurr wich makes conkeldurr a good assaultvest user). I also think an assaultvest user should not have a 4x weakness for a common attacking type cause it will be sniped with moves of that type. A pokemon with a burning move like scald (or steam eruption from volcanion which i think is a good assaultvestuser, shame we can not use it in battlespot) is cool too because then you are bulkier on both sides. The pokemon also should have enough coverage options cause attacking moves is the only thing it can run.
Goodra is a good assaultvest user too imo, i have faced it and it wrecks with its huge coverage and insane special bulk.
Goodra is definitely a good Assault Vest user(which is kind of weird considering Goodra's SpD is way higher than its Def.) A lot of Pokemon that seem like they'd be good AV users, like Kingler, are held back by their stats(Kingler's special bulk is still lacking with AV unless you invest heavily, which comproisies speed, atk, and physical bulk in the process,) abilities(Hyper Cutter is super situational, Kingler can't make much use of Sheer Forcce-Why doesn't Crabhammer get the boost?-and Kingler doesn't have the bulk or set up moves-like Calm Mind-to make use of Shell Armor,) or moves(Kingler's actually fairly decent in this department, but it's not enough.)
Regirock is another less-than-common Pokemon that makes great use of AV. With 80/200/100 bulk naturally, plus the AV and Drain Punch, it can stay alive for a while. Not to mention it's a Rock type, so even more SpD in a Sandstorm.
Completely unrelated, but does anyone know why most Amoonguss(not that there are many) run Relaxed natures when they don't usually have physical moves?
Last edited: