Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

[Shuple]

above i talked about how stall losing gothitelle would hurt it, and that relates to there being a decline in stall. i don't ladder, but stall usage declining a bit makes sense for the reasons explained by myself and others above.

however, that isn't gonna be something that hurts mega sableye lol. this isn't the VR thread, so i'm not gonna discuss your opinion that sab should now be A+, but sableye is definitely still amazing for the reasons it was suspected. it's capable of putting insane pressure on teams thanks to being a bulky magic bounce user; it gives a really nice form of hazard prevention to bulkier builds (how it basically enabled gothstall), it's unaffected by moves like toxic and will-o-wisp (thanks to magic bounce), making it harder to wear down, it has excellent defensive typing, it has an amazing movepool for a bulky utility pokemon, etc.. the thing is capable of forcing switches, and then capitalizing on those with moves like will-o-wisp, knock off, and recover (more passive). yes, one of the big, uncompetitive things it did in being a key part of gothstall is gone, but it's other attributes that make it annoying to deal with still exist.

the thing is still a solid option for fat teams; while stall usage has declined, it can still be seen in the gimmicky wonder trio build, and imo that's almost as annoying as gothstall was. there aren't any other big / remarkable stall builds that i can think of, but sab's still nice on various stall / semi-stall builds, as well as balance. being able to prevent hazards while providing excellent utility like i explained above is still super useful for balanced builds, and it's definitely worth the mega slot. if you want a good example of a balanced build featuring mega sableye, i'd check out TDK's / dice's mega sableye balance in the sample teams thread. there are a bunch of other teams like this, and odds are you've probably run into or at least seen one by now.

Well imo thanks to the poor speed and the losing of prankster after its Mega Evolve,a sub CM set/sub SD whatever/Bulk Up Talonflame/QD Volcarona may force a Mega Sableye to switch out.
However,an Unaware teammate of M-Sableye may cause all this efforts useless,Volcarona can Giga Drain the Quagsire but may have a long game against Clefable.
A SubSD Bisharp may work,while Sucker Punch/Knock Off/Iron Head are all precious moves that makes me hard to choose.

When talking about breaking a stall,I am always reminded of Skarmory and Chansey.
In BW I often use Keldeo since it can hurt Skarm/Chansey/Ferrothorn badly,while it has many Hi-Usage checks and counters such as Lati@s,Starmie, which makes a single Keldeo pale.In ORAS I prefer Knock Out spamming as my most-used Wallbreaking attemption,but it get stucked when met with a Mega Venusaur/Mega Sableye.
There must be some solving I don't know yet.I'd be glad if you share with me.

...And this is my first post here.
Hello Smogon.Hello everyone.

 

[Sablenite]

There must be some solving I don't know yet.I'd be glad if you share with me.

...And this is my first post here.
Hello Smogon. Hello everyone.

Well hello, anyhow if your looking for stuff to beat stall, we have many attackers capable of killing Stall: Kyuerem-B, Hoopa-U, (Magma Storm) Heatran, Manaphy, Serperior, Mega Lopunny, and almost all taunt and encore users.

And Knock Off can be ran on quite a bit in order to lure Chansey.

 

[Reiddos]

Played a bit with this underrated Keldeo set and it works pretty well.

Keldeo @ Salac Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Endeavor
- Scald
- Secret Sword

Keldeo is easily one of the best pokemon in the tier but the high usage of reliable checks such as Tornadus-T, Latios, Mega Venusaur and Azumarill can give the standard sets (Specs, Scarf, SubCM and LO resttalk) a lot of trouble doing their job. SubEndeavor Keldeo sacrifices its niche as an awesome Scizor / Bish / Weav etc. check to be a nice lure to dozens of pokemon. Getting a free sub either early game (to get rid of mons like MVenusaur) or late game (clean up when priority is gone) on the free switch is the situation you want. The set works best on faster checks such as Latios and Tornadus-T, but it will also work against slower pokemon

situation explained against slower checks

Turn 1: Keldeo uses Sub, opponent switches out Heatran to Mega Venusaur
Turn 2: You scald Mega Venusaur while he will try to break your sub with Giga Drain
Turn 3 - 5: You use sub until you are at 1%, Mega Venusaur breaks the Sub
Turn 6: You Endeavor while Mega Venusaur kills you.

Best case scenario: Mega Venusaur faints because of the burn you got from Scald.
Worst case scenario: Mega Venusaur is left at 1% while Keldeo has fainted.

To be honest, not the best outcome. At least you got rid of the Keldeo counter so other pokemon such as Azumarill and Mega Altaria are going to have an easier time for the remainder of the match.

situation explained against faster checks

Turn 1: Keldeo uses Sub, opponent switches out Heatran to Latios
Turn 2 - 4: You keep using Sub while Latios breaks your sub with Psyshock. After 4 turns, you are at 1% HP, +1 speed behind a sub against a 70% Latios.
Turn 5: You Endeavor Latios while he breaks the sub for the last time. LO recoil will kill Latios but it doesn't really matter: the next turn Keldeo will be at +1 speed so any move will kill (works very well against pokemon such as Leftovers Starmie and AV Torn-T)
Turn 6: You don't have your sub anymore, but you are at +1 speed so unless the opponent has a ghost type, scarfer above 108 speed or priority, you will get another pokemon at 1% health.

Best case scenario: Latios faints, another pokemon is left at 1% health
Worst case scenario: Latios faints, Keldeo is revenge killed the next turn (which will give you the momentum)

You can also pair this Keldeo set up with Healing Wish support. You won't be able to use Salac Berry again, but you can still use the combination of Substitute + Endeavor for slower checks and use your standard Scald + Secret Sword to kill mons like Tyranitar.

It's a good set for checking say the 5 pokemon that counter it but it's nothing more than a funny niche to be honest.
I mean not only are you sacrificing items that Keldeo really performs the best with (Specs/Orb for wallbreaking, Scarf for revenging stuff like Thund, Mane, Mega-Zam, Mega Lop (basically any frail stuff that chunks balance/HO).
You bring your Keldeo down to 1%. The whole idea of checks to pokemon is to either trade them one for one to remove an annoying/ well performing pokemon vs opposition team or weaken them to the point they either can't switch in to hazards or get easily revenge killed by priority (M-Scizor, Weavile etc all things keldeo usually walls EZ).

You mention using healing wish support which in theory is an ok pairing of pokemon means you're sacrificing yet another moveslot and teamslot to support a niche set, and when healing Keld back up it still lacks offensive presence.

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 264-312 (68.5 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery I guess this isn't such a huge deal as Tran won't break your sub but it can still set up rocks / taunt you even if you're subbed up.
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 109-130 (31.7 - 37.9%) -- 93.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 130-154 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

Like one of Keldeo's great uses is a sciz check, and vs one of the sets it's basically not doing it's job at all effectively if sciz already has set up and SD

(+4 84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 159-187 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) -Obviously you're probably going to burn this thing one on one but if it's already +2 you're relying on a burn to not get destroyed.

So yeah overall don't really rate that set as; the whole idea of checks to Keldeo is to weaken/ kill Keld, Keld sacrifices items normally needed to help it perform properly and it loses a lot of offensive output.

 

[Vert]

taunt is an amazing move right now. almost on par with knock off and scald to be honest. might seem silly, but all these bulky hos and balance teams are so much viable without goth in the metagame making things like tornadus-t, mew, serperior, hydreigon, gardevoir, gliscor, alakazam, and talonflame much more potent in the current metagame. the best ones are the ones that can still force out sableye most notably gardevoir obviously, but also: hurricane | iron tail | superpower | taunt tornadus-t, bulk up | roost | taunt | acrobatics talonflame, and leaf storm | hidden power [fire/ground] / taunt / synthesis serperior.

really fun to see manaphy to be a consistent threat against stall nowadays since you can run leftovers on tg rd in contrast to shed shell which got worn down by hazards and your own sand damage. the most successful stalls i've seen run cm blissey. chansey has found its niche limited to balance these days...

 

[AM]

Speaking of stall since it was mentioned here and also I've read the same on PS from players I've spoken with, for those who play stall or defensive oriented teams, what are your thoughts on Seismitoad and the usage of water immune mons on stall team? From my understanding watching games of stall teams being used a water immunity seems like a necessity these days for defensive teams. Most of the better stall teams I've witnessed use Seismitoad a lot so I'm just curious about that.

 

[Martin]

Ya I've noticed a lot more of both Seismi and Gastro on stall teams recently. Its probably because of the fact that teams can't just slap Goth on to deal with Mana anymore. While I don't play stall much, I've played around with it a bit and am enjoying pairing them with Amoonguss to cover it well on non-Venu/Bliss stall teams

 

[EraiMHFU]

They lose to Manaphy if it has Energy Ball, but that leaves it walled by other stuff like Venu or Bro, this means its moveset should be scouted first.

Shadow Tag made so easy to deal with stallbreakers to the point it was just clicking trick (goth) or encore (wobb but he was seen more on offensel), the ability concept itself is so dumb that I dont understand why there's people bitching in the OU Room saying "OU council is filled with pussies", "it has counterplays and should prepare for it"(lol).

What im not sure is how will stall survive without their emergency button, seeing there's A LOT of viable stallbreakers, and some could just dismantle stall builds with either coverage, taunt or w/e.

Like this:

Cute Monster

Victini @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 96 Atk / 160 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Energy Ball
- Psychic / Glaciate

So this is a Wallbreaker Victini that is meant to break defensive cores using it's great coverage instead of the standard Stallbreaker set that uses taunt, note that I included rocks in calcs vs megas that are not Sab, since stall usually relies on skarmory to remove hazards, and Skarm will never stay into victini.

Destruction

96+ Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 403-476 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Slowbro: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Mega Venusaur: 221-265 (60.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Dragalge: 195-229 (58.3 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
96+ Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 230-270 (75.6 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
96+ Atk Life Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 192-229 (47.5 - 56.6%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
^this doesnt give cune time to use CM so a teammate will pick it off, is a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks.
96+ Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 195-230 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 556-655 (141.1 - 166.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO(lol)
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Glaciate vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 343-406 (89.7 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

 

[Reiddos]

Speaking of stall since it was mentioned here and also I've read the same on PS from players I've spoken with, for those who play stall or defensive oriented teams, what are your thoughts on Seismitoad and the usage of water immune mons on stall team? From my understanding watching games of stall teams being used a water immunity seems like a necessity these days for defensive teams. Most of the better stall teams I've witnessed use Seismitoad a lot so I'm just curious about that.

I don't use stall at all but I do vs. it on a constant basis and I'd have to admit water immunity it a pretty big thing for stall teams as specs Keldeo is a thing. That being said there is an ability for me run say Hp Grass over HP electric/Icy wind
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 340-400 (82.1 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Does a huge amount to Seis and obviously it's going to kill Quag + stall is never using water absorb quag because unaware is needed / it's just garbage.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gastrodon: 352-416 (82.6 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gastrodon is also taking a huge amount.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 77% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jellicent remains the one true counter to Keldeo

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also chunks Slowbro quite nicely which has been the standard Keld check on stall/ fat balance. (Lose nothing from scalding it on switch in either). This calc is sorta just here to prove HP Grass as a pretty decent viability overall.

The argument obviously about running Hp grass is that you lose a slot to icy wind which helps counter play the lati switch in. I think in general keldeo is not really a Lati counter anyway so it's fine to lose the coverage for a shot at destroying bulky water mons / water absorb mons. It's really just preference though as you lose the coverage to lure something. If you're packing Ttar in the back you could probably afford to use HP grass as ttar pursuit traps and kills lati and it also kills jelly
(252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 360-426 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO). Up to the player to either click pursuit or crunch, 50/50s are part of pursuit trapping.

So to sorta summarise what I've said (tl;dr)
- HP GRASS: A good lure move on Keld - I haven't really mentioned the other Water mons in OU as I feel most of water absorb is designed for Keld. (Cbf to calc Azu's play rough dmg, Starmie gets shut down but it's primary role isn't usually wallbreaking except for bulky grounds, Manaphy almost always has E-Ball+ T Glow so yeah) Hp Grass is good due to it's damage output plus lure potential.
- This post has been focused on Keldeo which I believe is the most prominent water type wallbreaker in ou and I've talked about the counter-play to water absorb mons which with one move basicaly just lose to Keld.

However I can agree that Water absorb is still viable, I've already spent a fair amount of time typing this up so I'll just sorta state the mons Water absorb beats. (Feel free to help me add to this list)
Starmie, CroCune, Rotom-w, Azu?

I still think it's losing to some pretty common pokemon though
Sub DD Gyara, CM Slowbro, Orb/ Specs Keld (With Hp Grass) and Energy Ball Manaphy.

So yeah I hope that adds some substance to the whole water absorb stall argument. It's definitely viable and it forces prediction and counter building from your opponents but still loses to some obvious threats. :]

 

[AM]

I don't use stall at all but I do vs. it on a constant basis and I'd have to admit water immunity it a pretty big thing for stall teams as specs Keldeo is a thing. That being said there is an ability for me run say Hp Grass over HP electric/Icy wind
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 340-400 (82.1 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Does a huge amount to Seis and obviously it's going to kill Quag + stall is never using water absorb quag because unaware is needed / it's just garbage.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gastrodon: 352-416 (82.6 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gastrodon is also taking a huge amount.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 77% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jellicent remains the one true counter to Keldeo

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also chunks Slowbro quite nicely which has been the standard Keld check on stall/ fat balance. (Lose nothing from scalding it on switch in either). This calc is sorta just here to prove HP Grass as a pretty decent viability overall.

The argument obviously about running Hp grass is that you lose a slot to icy wind which helps counter play the lati switch in. I think in general keldeo is not really a Lati counter anyway so it's fine to lose the coverage for a shot at destroying bulky water mons / water absorb mons. It's really just preference though as you lose the coverage to lure something. If you're packing Ttar in the back you could probably afford to use HP grass as ttar pursuit traps and kills lati and it also kills jelly
(252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 360-426 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO). Up to the player to either click pursuit or crunch, 50/50s are part of pursuit trapping.

So to sorta summarise what I've said (tl;dr)
- HP GRASS: A good lure move on Keld - I haven't really mentioned the other Water mons in OU as I feel most of water absorb is designed for Keld. (Cbf to calc Azu's play rough dmg, Starmie gets shut down but it's primary role isn't usually wallbreaking except for bulky grounds, Manaphy almost always has E-Ball+ T Glow so yeah) Hp Grass is good due to it's damage output plus lure potential.
- This post has been focused on Keldeo which I believe is the most prominent water type wallbreaker in ou and I've talked about the counter-play to water absorb mons which with one move basicaly just lose to Keld.

However I can agree that Water absorb is still viable, I've already spent a fair amount of time typing this up so I'll just sorta state the mons Water absorb beats. (Feel free to help me add to this list)
Starmie, CroCune, Rotom-w, Azu?

I still think it's losing to some pretty common pokemon though
Sub DD Gyara, CM Slowbro, Orb/ Specs Keld (With Hp Grass) and Energy Ball Manaphy.

So yeah I hope that adds some substance to the whole water absorb stall argument. It's definitely viable and it forces prediction and counter building from your opponents but still loses to some obvious threats. :]

I don't see how HP Grass is a bad option, albeit niche, if that's going to be your means to break / lure stall especially those with Seismitoad when you consider one of the bigger stall builds in wonder trio and its variations utilize it as a main player in it. Granted this match of boudouche v DoomX was showing counterstyling elements in boudouche knew he would just use the same thing again with outdated stuff, but it shows the practical sense of what HP Grass can do. The team simply fell apart the moment boudouche clicked HP Grass and the game was basically set in stone of who the winner was. Outside of stall on a Specs set, I don't see why you would run it on Scarf over HP Ice, Bug, or Electric, lets you net hits on Azumarill and fatter waters like you mentioned above with the former being a big constraint in teambuilding by itself due to its limited good switch ins.

 

[Kav]

They lose to Manaphy if it has Energy Ball, but that leaves it walled by other stuff like Venu or Bro, this means its moveset should be scouted first.

Shadow Tag made so easy to deal with stallbreakers to the point it was just clicking trick (goth) or encore (wobb but he was seen more on offensel), the ability concept itself is so dumb that I dont understand why there's people bitching in the OU Room saying "OU council is filled with pussies", "it has counterplays and should prepare for it"(lol).

What im not sure is how will stall survive without their emergency button, seeing there's A LOT of viable stallbreakers, and some could just dismantle stall builds with either coverage, taunt or w/e.

Like this:

Cute Monster

Victini @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 96 Atk / 160 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Energy Ball
- Psychic

So this a Wallbreaker Victini that is meant to break defensive cores using it's great coverage instead of the standard Stallbreaker set that uses taunt, note that I included rocks in calcs vs megas that are not Sab, since stall usually relies on skarmory to remove hazards, and Skarm will never stay into victini.

Destruction

96+ Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 403-476 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Slowbro: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Mega Venusaur: 221-265 (60.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Dragalge: 195-229 (58.3 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
96+ Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 230-270 (75.6 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
96+ Atk Life Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 192-229 (47.5 - 56.6%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
^this doesnt give cune time to use CM so a teammate will pick it off, is a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks.
96+ Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 195-230 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 556-655 (141.1 - 166.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO(lol)

i like but what exactly are the reasoning behind the evs? all of the specially based milestones here are achieved with only 36 spatk, which if you were running would allow you to use a +speed nature and still have more physical attack than the current spread leaves you with.

 

[Shuple]

I don't think Water Absorb/Storm Drain is prepared for Manaphy,maybe for the Offensive Rain?

IMO Manaphy has several counters/checks,and among them a Water Absorb one is far from the biggest threaten.
Kyurem-B can switch into a Manaphy and take an unboosted Scald.Though a Tail Glowed Scald/Ice Beam really does some damage but also makes you lose your Manaphy.Without a Tail Glow,the only way to pass Kyurem-B is the Burn effect of Scald.
Faced with Mega-Venusaur,whether TG or CM set is defeated,thanks to the Giga Drain restoration.If Manaphy doesn't bring the Ice Beam it would be a hard counter.
Ferrothorn can take +3 Scald/Ice Beam twice and Power Whip back.Hard counter to Non-Ice Beam sets,too.
Keldeo,countering non-Energy Ball sets with a CM after switching in to take a +3 Scald.
While Water Absorb/Storm Drain,regardless of the dangerous Energy Ball/Grass Knot,they can't take +3/+6 Ice Beam and force Manaphy to switch out before themselves' downfall.Suicune/Vaporeon may better but also fear the Grass moves.

In conclude,a Manaphy,similar to CroCune,is deadly after boost up,but pale when just switched in.The best way to stop it IMO is "nip this in the bud".
It's not how bulky you are but how heavily you strike back that matters.Unless you are Unaware.

The calcs,well idk how to put it into a button in case of you don't need/want to read it,sry for that.

252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 60-71 (15.3 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 148-175 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 245-289 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 309-364 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO


+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 106-126 (29.5 - 35%) -- 12.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 146-172 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 60-71 (18.5 - 21.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 259-305 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Gastrodon: 187-221 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 204 HP / 56 SpD Vaporeon: 160-189 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- 88.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-----------------------------EDITED-----------------------------

Well I hate to admit that I had a lack of experience,but I just met a Manaphy with Psychic which can pass both Mega-Venusaur and Keldeo,interesting.

 

[Reiddos]

I don't see how HP Grass is a bad option, albeit niche, if that's going to be your means to break / lure stall especially those with Seismitoad when you consider one of the bigger stall builds in wonder trio and its variations utilize it as a main player in it. Granted this match of boudouche v DoomX was showing counterstyling elements in boudouche knew he would just use the same thing again with outdated stuff, but it shows the practical sense of what HP Grass can do. The team simply fell apart the moment boudouche clicked HP Grass and the game was basically set in stone of who the winner was. Outside of stall on a Specs set, I don't see why you would run it on Scarf over HP Ice, Bug, or Electric, lets you net hits on Azumarill and fatter waters like you mentioned above with the former being a big constraint in teambuilding by itself due to its limited good switch ins.

I'd say yes it's probably only good on a specs or orb set but mainly specs as grass doesnt hit hard enough. It's still really good for chunking any bulky waters outside of stall though but obviously icy wind is good for lati and torn.

 

[EraiMHFU]

i like but what exactly are the reasoning behind the evs? all of the specially based milestones here are achieved with only 36 spatk, which if you were running would allow you to use a +speed nature and still have more physical attack than the current spread leaves you with.

I took the EV spread from Albacore's Victini analysis, and changed nature to give more power to V-Create, since neither Zard-Y nor M-Garde can severely hurt Victini, it runs more SpA to hurt Lando and Garchomp with Glaciate, but i forgot to slash it and also it gives more power overall. c:

 

[Norne]

Tried to use jellycent of all things as a water immunity in stall but in general it can scarcely scare Manaphy these days with the amount of energy balls fired on and in general too much passiveness on the field, I honestly think that gastrodon is the superior option here vs other match ups.

 

[blank]

manaphy has the coverage options to make it basically one of the best, if not the best, stall / wall breakers in the tier. moves like energy ball, psychic, shadow ball, hidden power fire, etc. provide it with the ability to shut down a lot of the things that can potentially counter it. obviously, this is something we already knew, but focusing on water immune pokemon on stall, they aren't really a problem for manaphy most of the time.

as i mentioned above, energy ball is a pretty viable option on manaphy, and at +3, it doesn't have the hardest time taking out those bulky waters that it dislikes, even ones like seismitoad and gastrodon that have water immunity. even when not running energy ball, manaphy's decent bulk defending against the generally low offenses of these pokemon make it rather easy for manphy to just set up another tail glow and plow through with another coverage move. for example:

manaphy v. curse gastrodon

~+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Gastrodon: 187-220 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

~+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Gastrodon: 298-351 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

~0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 93-109 (27.2 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

~+1 0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 138-163 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

the best case scenario here is that you already set up once with your manaphy, they bring in gastro, and you set up again on it, taking a hit in the process. the worst case scenario is that they're already at +1.

my main point here is that manaphy has very good coverage options that are great for handling these water immune pokemon while also providing good general coverage for manaphy. i also want to highlight how even if manaphy doesn't have these, they aren't the end of the world in an average case. however, if you're running a manaphy and you can't beat that one thing with your specific set, you should probably be able to beat it with something else on the team. manaphy can provide super valuable wall / stall breaking compression with it's amazing coverage, so odds are you're only lacking what's needed to hit 1 or 2 pokemon, meaning it's super easy to throw a solution to that / those on one of your other 5 pokemon ;D

 

[Clair]

Speaking of stall since it was mentioned here and also I've read the same on PS from players I've spoken with, for those who play stall or defensive oriented teams, what are your thoughts on Seismitoad and the usage of water immune mons on stall team? From my understanding watching games of stall teams being used a water immunity seems like a necessity these days for defensive teams. Most of the better stall teams I've witnessed use Seismitoad a lot so I'm just curious about that.

Basically, stopping RD + Rest Manaphy in conjunction with Chansey or another answer to 3-attacks variants (as well as e.g. Suicune), and preventing Scald-spam from burning through Heal Bell PP. Gastrodon is always the better option for full stall thanks to Recover (unless the team can't fit rocks otherwise ofc), Seismitoad works better on balance. Gastro can also act as a kind of defensive win condition for stall, in that most offensive teams have very limited answers to it and can be easily stalled out once these are removed.

Vaporeon's another really underrated water-immune actually, to the point where imo it's fairly viable outside of full stall.

 

[EraiMHFU]

I don't think Water Absorb/Storm Drain is prepared for Manaphy,maybe for the Offensive Rain?

IMO Manaphy has several counters/checks,and among them a Water Absorb one is far from the biggest threaten.
Kyurem-B can switch into a Manaphy and take an unboosted Scald.Though a Tail Glowed Scald/Ice Beam really does some damage but also makes you lose your Manaphy.Without a Tail Glow,the only way to pass Kyurem-B is the Burn effect of Scald.
Faced with Mega-Venusaur,whether TG or CM set is defeated,thanks to the Giga Drain restoration.If Manaphy doesn't bring the Ice Beam it would be a hard counter.
Ferrothorn can take +3 Scald/Ice Beam twice and Power Whip back.Hard counter to Non-Ice Beam sets,too.
Keldeo,countering non-Energy Ball sets with a CM after switching in to take a +3 Scald.
While Water Absorb/Storm Drain,regardless of the dangerous Energy Ball/Grass Knot,they can't take +3/+6 Ice Beam and force Manaphy to switch out before themselves' downfall.Suicune/Vaporeon may better but also fear the Grass moves.

In conclude,a Manaphy,similar to CroCune,is deadly after boost up,but pale when just switched in.The best way to stop it IMO is "nip this in the bud".
It's not how bulky you are but how heavily you strike back that matters.Unless you are Unaware.

The calcs,well idk how to put it into a button in case of you don't need/want to read it,sry for that.

Uh, the problem is that most of manaphy checks and counters are offensive, Keldeo and Kyurem-b are almost never seen on stall(unless is fat balance), while Ferro loses to HP Fire manaphy and Venu loses to Psychic variants, Chansey is the only counter to TG + 3 Attacks variant BUT it auto-loses to TG + Rain Dance 2 Attacks, this wasnt like that before the shadow tag ban because goth used to trap and pp stall manaphy until is forced to struggle via trick.

I can see an increase in Semi-Stall builds rather than Full-Stall because is so matchup based without Goth to deal with stall breakers, many ones run CM Raikou instead of the typical CM Suicune since they really need some offensive pressence to avoid getting overwhelmed.

 

[Sablenite]

Speaking of stall since it was mentioned here and also I've read the same on PS from players I've spoken with, for those who play stall or defensive oriented teams, what are your thoughts on Seismitoad and the usage of water immune mons on stall team? From my understanding watching games of stall teams being used a water immunity seems like a necessity these days for defensive teams. Most of the better stall teams I've witnessed use Seismitoad a lot so I'm just curious about that.

Ya, an immunity in stall nine, a resist works but an immunity to any type makes it that much easier to switch into and pressure with status / hazards / or knock off

Usually, its just easier to fit Heal Bell / Aromatherapy on something on your team and just have a grass or water type somewhere.

Also, I really like Slowking in this meta, its one of the few things in stall that can deal with Manaphy via Dragon Tail.

 

[Shuple]

Uh, the problem is that most of manaphy checks and counters are offensive, Keldeo and Kyurem-b are almost never seen on stall(unless is fat balance), while Ferro loses to HP Fire manaphy and Venu loses to Psychic variants, Chansey is the only counter to TG + 3 Attacks variant BUT it auto-loses to TG + Rain Dance 2 Attacks, this wasnt like that before the shadow tag ban because goth used to trap and pp stall manaphy until is forced to struggle via trick.

I can see an increase in Semi-Stall builds rather than Full-Stall because is so matchup based without Goth to deal with stall breakers, many ones run CM Raikou instead of the typical CM Suicune since they really need some offensive pressence to avoid getting overwhelmed.

Yep,that's the reason I use stall fewer and fewer,it is hard to cover the Offensive Pokemons.To check opponents by revenge kill seems to be more usual nowadays.
Just as you mentioned,a stall team rarely runs a Kyurem-B (or any other LO/Scarfmons) because its lacking of regeneration leads to a early-game worn out of this very Pokemon.This is a big problem.
While IMO a LO Kyurem-B running Roost may work,just like Roost bulky (Mega-)Scizor.This may suits a Semi-Stall,I guess.

 

[Martin]

Something I've messed around with a little is regular Kyu. This thing is bulky (iirc its got almost as much physical bulk as Ferrothorn before consideration of investment) and I'm having a lot of fun using SubRoost to PP stall using its great mixed bulk and solid firepower which means that it isn't conpletely overwhelmed v.s. offense. Its kinda nice for its ability to lure and beat non-Iron Head Ferrothorn 1v1 due to Gyro's abysmal PP (completely stalls it out without even needing to Roost if starting from full health, although realistically you'd need to roost/switch after around three assuming you don't get a sub on a Leech Seed or switch-in or something)

I've actually used a dual SubRoost core of Kyurem+Zapdos to put pressure on more balanced builds (no pressure pun intended, it just sorta came out xD). They cover some of each other's weaknesses too (namely Zapdos covering fighting and Kyurem covering Ice to an extent), although the shared rock weakness sucks (although Stone Edge can be easily sub stalled provided you catch sub on faster users on switch-in). Both Kyurem and Zapdos are actually kinda sweet on semistall/balance due to the unique utility offered by Pressure+recovery and their high offenses, and I'm definitely gonna mess around with both some more.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I really wanted to try Kyurem in OU, but Kyurem-B's offensive qualities are so damn good that I have trouble finding situations where Kyurem would work better than it. Then again, I'm a diehard offense user, which isn't exactly an environment where kyurem thrives. Anyway, I've been using CB Hoopa-U, which has been on the rise lately and from what I hear is having an analysis done on it. So, I used it A bit and found that it is absolutely hilarious. I run Adamant, even though I probably should be running jolly, but the ability to 2HKO Hippo without rocks with CB Hyperspace Fury is just comical. People might say CB is super prediction reliant and you need to be a wizard to use it, but I find it even easier to use than The normal LO all-out attacker set. Hyperspace fury essentially cannot be switched into by anything that doesn't resist it, and even stuff like Azumarril is taking upwards of 50% from it. Overall, it can do some pretty ridiculous stuff that standard LO can't do, and not taking recoil after you fire off an attack is pretty sweet too. What do you guys think of CB Hoopa U? I've personally, as I expressed above, had a lot of success with it, Using it as my main breaker on my Offense squad.

Another think I'd like to ask/talk about is the Fist Plate breloom sets that have been popping up. Are they any good? I can see the draw of them, but I enjoy using standard LO, as that power can make quite a difference.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 268-320 (98.8 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Fist Plate Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 248-294 (91.5 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

The above calc is not really too mind-boggling, but the difference in power on bullet seed really shows against bulky targets like Hippowdon and slowbro. I think that most fist plate sets are SDLoom, and while this does make sense, wanting to keep recoil away from your sweeper and all, but I like the LO set's more immediate wallbreaking power with bullet seed. Although, I will adimt that a +2 bullet seed will KO most targets that it needs to.

There is one more thing that I want to talk about, and that's... well, it's stall. I, to be honest, have never used a full-on stall team, but from the looks of it, stall seems to be really struggling in the current metagame. I'm not saying that it's useless, but it seems to be really, really pressured by a ton of pokemon. However, if moves were made to improve stall's place in the metagame, something disastrous might happen, and stall would be the only viable playstyle. So, I'm just throwing this out there, do you think that stall, an the whole, is as effective as offense and balance?

 

[p2]

fist plate makes it harder for weavile to revenge you while also being able to bluff sash (this is a huge deal considering weavile is still incredibly dominant and still fucks up offense easily). and it's not like the damage on lopunny is that relevant given the amount of sand and contact punishing items / abilities going around, it's not gonna realistically be at 100% whenever loom comes in

cb hoopa is jesus tho

 

[Sablenite]

Yep,that's the reason I use stall fewer and fewer,it is hard to cover the Offensive Pokemons.To check opponents by revenge kill seems to be more usual nowadays.
Just as you mentioned,a stall team rarely runs a Kyurem-B (or any other LO/Scarfmons) because its lacking of regeneration leads to a early-game worn out of this very Pokemon.This is a big problem.
While IMO a LO Kyurem-B running Roost may work, just like Roost bulky (Mega-)Scizor.This may suits a Semi-Stall, I guess.

Kyruem-B semi stall sounds really fun tbh, never tried it though, However stall teams are really starting to be creative running stuff like Sub-Seed Serperior, and CM Blissey, and occasionally running some common things like Latias and AV Raikou (with wish-pass support) and then there's me running Slowking to phaze it out

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 76+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 214-252 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO --- which scouts for Psychic or HP [fire]

 

[Martin]

why would u run av rai on semistall when CM does the same thing exept better?

Anyway yea the Kyus are both much more useful in the current meta than they were before despite not directly benefitting from Goth being removed like Manaphy and Togekiss did, with ice being much better typing than it was earier in the meta (I've seen an increase in Mamo too for this same reason+ground being amazing; mamozone is jesus).

I'm actually finding Manaphy to be kinda unhealthy at the moment. It is so hard for both balance and stall to take on consistently, and I'm finding myself more and more reliant on SubRoost Kyurem and Roost+2/3 attacks Kyurem-B to act as a catch-all for it on semistall and balance, respectively. While I don't want to be rash and suggest a suspect test or anything like that, it is definitely something which needs a closer eye kept on it now that the premier thing keeping it in check (Gothitelle) is out of the picture. Between TG+3 attacks and TG+RD, I am finding it more and more problematic to deal with. Chansey balance just loses to TG+RD too, which doesn't help, and same with CM Bliss stall. Energy Ball is definitely more of a must on TG+3 attacks too due to the increase in Gastro and Seismi.

 

[AM]

Uh i think manaphy has gotten worst as the meta progresses seeing the builds used and how much some of these builds apply focused pressure on wallbreakers. It still retains some of the same qualities it always has but it has some major competition for the water slot these days with the likes of others such as keldeo and azumarill. Unhealthy is a weird buzzword subject to a lot of varying opinions and playstyles, doesnt necessarily mean its automatically bad for the meta.

A typical balance team isnt really going to be destroyed by manaphy either. If its some balance reminiscent of the XY days then maybe but even then you are going to have a lot of issues with wallbreakers in general not just manaphy if you make the unwise choice of having an entire team fall under the 110 base speed tier with no good form of speed control.