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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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Serebii's dex says 45...
>_>
You forgot to mention that Ice is also a much more valuable attacking type in OU where you've got the 4x weak dragons to deal with than it is in UU.
I wouldn't really call Glaceon a solid choice in OU, though. Even with Hail support it's a glass cannon, considering how common fighting and rock attacks (and fire, to a lesser extent) are, and 65 base speed is near slug-level in standard. I don't know how many opportunities Glaceon would get to switch in, either, with it's awesome one resist and it's decent but not spectacular defenses. That's neither here nor there, though.
I do find myself agreeing with this, Lapras is definitely a much bigger threat now than it has been previously. The fact that it can utilize both special and physical sets quite effectively brings it up, as do it's nice status options in Sing and T-wave (and confuse ray, if you're into that).
I take issue with Glaceon for UU.
First, it is faster than Lapras/Walrein anyway, and with 65/110/90 Defenses, it won't win wall of the year, but Walrein and Lapras' STAB water attacks still won't take it out. Since it will be seeing fewer rock or steel types in UU, it can probably afford to go with HP Grass or HP Electric instead of HP Fighting.
Do remember that Glaceon has a godly 130 Special Attack Stat and 3 special moves, one of which hammers the Psychics in UU, and the other which obliterates nearly anything that doesn't resist it. Unlike Flareon and Glaceon which also have 130 attacks, Glaceon can actually attack without that much redundant coverage.
Modest Scarf Glaceon can hit 343 speed, which is enough to beat +Speed Manectric and Scyther. Modest Specs Glaceon is working off of 591 SA, and there's no Blissey or Snorlax around to eat all of its attacks.
HP Fighting gives you coverage for the 8x Ice resists, as well as Lapras, Aggron, Bastiodon, Probopass, and Mawile.
HP Grass gives you coverage for all water switchins, especially Quags and Gastrodon. It still techincally deals less than Ice Beam on Rock/Steels. HP Grass is superior to HP Electric in nearly every concievable way in UU. The only thing HP Elec hits harder than HP Grass or Ice Beam is Mantine.
Max SA Modest Scarf Glaceon Ice Beam on 252 HP Aggron:
37-44%
Max SA Modest LO Glaceon Ice Beam on 252 HP Aggron:
49-57% Shaky 2HKO.
Max SA Modest Specs Glaceon Ice Beam on 252 HP Aggron:
56-66%. 2HKO.
HP Fighting is a OHKO.
252 HP/148 Impish Bastiodon:
Max SA Scarf:
18-21%
Max SA LO:
23-27%
Max SA Specs:
27-32%
HP Fighting:
Max SA Scarf:
71-84%
Max SA Life Orb:
93-109%
Max SA Specs:
107-125%
252 HP Modest Probopass:
Scarf Ice Beam:
18-22%
LO Ice Beam:
24-28%
Specs Ice Beam:
28-33%
Scarf HP Fite:
74-87%
LO HP Fite:
96-113%
Specs HP Fite:
111-131%
Super-Effective HP on
252 HP Walrein (Lapras takes similar, but slightly less damage):
Scarf:
43-51%
LO:
56-66% 2HKO. (On Lapras, 49-58%)
Specs:
65-77%
Shadow Ball on 252 HP Poliwrath:
Scarf:
27-32%
LO:
36-42%
Specs:
41-48%
HP Grass on 252 HP Poliwrath:
Scarf:
48-57% Likely 2HKO.
LO:
62-73%
Specs:
72-85%
Conclusion: Since Glaceon can in most scenarios one or two hit KO most of the opponents that would switch into Ice Beam with a proper Hidden Power, and since Glaceon will inevitably be faster than any remotely defensive variant of these switchins, Glaceon has no true counters in UU and therefore should be BL unless there is a ban on the use of Hidden Power.
Oh wait, I'm an idiot.
Thick Fat Hariyama (and ONLY Thick Fat Hariyama, with large HP and SDef investements for LO or Specs) does counter Glaceon completely, but it is the only true counter. Grumpig gets owned by Shadow Ball and Dewgong/Lapras get hit by whatever Hidden Power you choose. Camerupt can't switch in and is slower, most of the other fire types have been pushed to BL, and Rapidash and LOL Magcargo is easily 3HKOd by Scarf Ice Beam occaisionally 2HKOd by LO, and always 2HKOd by Specs.
Thick Fat Hariyama (and ONLY Thick Fat Hariyama, with large HP and SDef investements for LO or Specs) does counter Glaceon completely, but it is the only true counter. Grumpig gets owned by Shadow Ball and Dewgong/Lapras get hit by whatever Hidden Power you choose. Camerupt can't switch in and is slower, most of the other fire types have been pushed to BL, and Rapidash and LOL Magcargo is easily 3HKOd by Scarf Ice Beam occaisionally 2HKOd by LO, and always 2HKOd by Specs.
Hmm...it's definitely true that Glaceon can pull off a 2HKO on many potential counters if it predicts correctly and has the right HP (personally, I'd stick with fighting every time as it destroys the Rock/Steels and still hits SE on Lapras/Walrein). For the record, a Calm Lapras with max sp def/HP survives 2 hits from HP fighting, but that raises the question of what you're going to do offensively besides Sing.
By the way, though I'm all for it being BL (for some reason, it's not on the current list and that's the only reason I'm mentioning it), a Ninetails with 252 HP can survive 2 consecutive Specs Shadow Balls (or you could use a 252 sp atk, 252 speed set which will definitely survive one Shadow Ball and easily outspeed Glaceon). Flareon (lol) can also survive 2 Specs Shadow Balls with just 252 HP.
Still, though...to me, the situation with Glaceon looks much like the situation with mixed Salamence in standard. By that, I mean it can defeat nearly every wall thrown at it, but relies on prediction to do so, and gets fairly beaten up over time (Granted, it doesn't have recoil if it's using a choice item, but SR and it coming in on predicted attacks will wear it down). Add that to the fact that Glaceon is a lot more difficult to switch in safely than Salamence, and is slower as well (well, things in UU are slower in general, but Glaceon is still below average), and...
Meh. Maybe I'm just trying to make justifications at this point, but despite being very difficult to technicially counter, the fact that Glaceon is fairly easy to kill as well as it's near-complete reliance on prediction when using these sets makes me somewhat hesitant to wholeheartedly embrace a BL position for it. I definitely do feel a little less strongly about it being UU than I previously did, though.
By the way, though I'm all for it being BL (for some reason, it's not on the current list and that's the only reason I'm mentioning it), a Ninetails with 252 HP can survive 2 consecutive Specs Shadow Balls (or you could use a 252 sp atk, 252 speed set which will definitely survive one Shadow Ball and easily outspeed Glaceon). Flareon (lol) can also survive 2 Specs Shadow Balls with just 252 HP.
Still, though...to me, the situation with Glaceon looks much like the situation with mixed Salamence in standard. By that, I mean it can defeat nearly every wall thrown at it, but relies on prediction to do so, and gets fairly beaten up over time (Granted, it doesn't have recoil if it's using a choice item, but SR and it coming in on predicted attacks will wear it down). Add that to the fact that Glaceon is a lot more difficult to switch in safely than Salamence, and is slower as well (well, things in UU are slower in general, but Glaceon is still below average), and...
Meh. Maybe I'm just trying to make justifications at this point, but despite being very difficult to technicially counter, the fact that Glaceon is fairly easy to kill as well as it's near-complete reliance on prediction when using these sets makes me somewhat hesitant to wholeheartedly embrace a BL position for it. I definitely do feel a little less strongly about it being UU than I previously did, though.
I don't feel that a Pokemon must have a foolproof counter to be considered balanced. If you have to predict properly to use something, then they can predict around that just the same. This is compounded by the fact that a misprediction isn't going to have you facing a Nasty Plotted fast Pokemon when you expected Choice Specs or anything like that.
Take a look at the Life Orb numbers. I've been using a Life Orb Magmortar, and the basic idea to success is this: If your Life Orber is the only thing eating into your HP, you are likely on a sweeping spree. 11 Attacks with 30% boosted damage often registers multiple KOs for the price of one pokemon.
For example, with either Specs or Scarf, if Probopass switches in on Ice Beam it walls you. If you use LO however, it will absorb the Ice Beam but then be promptly destroyed by HP Fite.
The Life Orb set requires significantly less prediction and still often comes up with 2HKOs. It is a healthy balance between the slaughter that is a well-predicted Specs hit and the failure of a mispredicted one. The Scarf set's asset lies in the fact it can outspeed even +Speed versions of the extremely quick Manectric and Scyther. It won't beat max speed Timid Froslass, but it OHKOs that with Shadow Ball before it can set down a lot of spikes. Since Glaceon often 2HKOs with Ice Beam even in resists, the Scarf option works if you plan on Spamming IBeam.
For Glaceon you'd need the support of a rapid spinner. Interestingly enough, my Blastoise set does counter this, and so does Tentacruel (which HP Electric does actually hit harder than HP Grass, along with Qwilfish).
Even still, Glaceon is very powerful and we should think very carefully before we allow in a pokemon with 130 Attack stat and 3 70+ BP moves with varied coverage off that stat. Especially one which outspeeds 95% of all (unscarfed) UU pokemon with a Scarf attached.
Don't forget that you can also give it Wish on the Life Orb set (or any set) so that it can support your entire team.
There's also no real reason why you can't use Icy Rock with Hail and Blizzard over Ice Beam. Since Glaceon only has 3 special attacks worth noting, that 4th slot can use any move you want it to.
Ninetails looks pretty nice, its move pool consisting of Nasty Plot, Hypnosis, WoW and Confuse Ray, and all that running off of 100 base speed seems a little crazy for UU.
Then the Sp. Atk side has Energy Ball, Flamethrower, Extrasensory, Dark Pulse and again Nasty Plot / Calm Mind to boost it.
I don't see it as game breaking though... Its Sp. Def is above average, and it is a very fast status pokemon, but Sleep Clause seems like Hypnosis will remain in check...
I agree, Ninetails is definitely a pokemon that should be discussed about BL status.
That said, I wonder if anyone else agrees with me that Cloyster is UU material? Again, I don't even see it as that much better than Torkoal who can also set up spikes, spin, and explode except he does it with far fewer weaknesses and much higher HP and Sp. Def >_>
Unless Cloyster's base 70 speed actually makes a difference... even then, Tentacruel's 100 speed and toxic spiker / spinner/knock-off utility and swords dance apparently doesn't save it from UU.
Tentacruel's biggest problem has and will likely always be a damning EQ weakness and crap defense, combined with the fact it needs to set up to do any kind of direct damage.
For instance, my Surf/Rapid Spin/Toxic/Mirror Coat Blastoise set is compatible with either Blastoise or Tentacruel. When you weigh the two against each other, Tenta spins faster and absorbs Toxic Spikes on the way in, but its only got a paltry 2HP more than Blastoise so it can't really use Mirror Coat more effectively. Blastoise's strength lies in the fact it can switch in on attacks from both ends of the spectrum, and it doesn't have a glaring EQ weak. Therefore, most of the predictable attacks against it will be Thunderbolt or Energy Ball/Grass Knot. Blastoise is just better special attack bait, since the most common physical attackers with STAB (EQ/Stone Edge) are weak to Surf.
Tenta also has a worse SA stat than Blastoise (by 10 points). Tentacruel is a great utility and now Toxispiker, but it just doesn't have much other use than utility. Druidcruel is awesome when set up, but set-up is harder and harder in the DP metagame. The 10 BP loss on its physical poison attack is devastating to Druidcruel as well, when you consider it's the functional equivalent to a 12% damage drop.
Cloyster really got knocked down a peg by the physical/special split. Where before it could wall most of the Bugs and Poisons, now it gets slaughtered by Bug Buzz and Sludge Bomb (Hi Venomoth). Energy Ball and Grass Knot are two new relatively common special attacks it has to worry about. The addition of Close Combat and Stone Edge didn't help it any for taking physical attacks, and now any special attacker can throw on HP Fite and clobber it. Its only new trick is Toxic Spikes, which many other pokemon do better.
In summary: Cloyster got pwn3d by the changes in DP. It's definetely UU material.
Oh, and Dragontamer, it's Ninetales, spelled as in stories.
Speaking of which, Nasty Plot and Energy Ball are what I really think put Ninetales in BL. The only UU pokemon that resist Energy Ball/Flamethrower are Altaria, Rapidash, Flareon, Torkoal, and Magmar. Altaria is the only one that can hit it back for reasonable damage with the DD/Earthquake set Flareon could use CB Return, but Flareon is easily walled by the likes of Poliwrath, Lapras, or Walrein if it tries that. Ninetales can put it and most waters to sleep, and then NP up. It might even be able to NP on a switch, Hypnosis, and then NP again. I really don't see what makes Ninetales any different than Houndoom. I mean, Houndoom doesn't even get a sleep move or Energy Ball, and it's BL. STAB Dark Pulse helps the accounting of that, but there's nothing I can see that stops Ninetales from forgoing Hypnosis for HP Rock, which deals with all of those would-be counters.
A few people brought that up. Cloyster is most definitely NOT BL in fact only thing Cloyster has gained is it can now use its higher physical attack stat with Avalanche. So yeah I'm also definitely up for Cloyster in UU, on top of that UU could always do with another Rapid Spinner even if its weak to SR.
As for Glaceon let me point out a few things.
1) Relicanth's Head Smash does nearly double the raw damage of Glaceon's Ice Beam.
(Happens to be super effective to Glaceon and 2x resistant too but thats irrelevant)
2) My name is Pinsir. I have 125 base attack with GOOD speed/defenses and Swords Dance but I'm UU ;_;
(Its basically a pure bug version of Heracross since it even learns CC now...)
3) Likewise my name is Absol, I have 130 base even!
4) I'm Swift Swim Omastar and Glaceon is my best friend!
To have Glaceon as a candidate for BL on the sole basis of its 130 base is silly when its just another case of a glass cannon.
Glaceon's coverage isn't brilliant either. Furthermore its 2x resisted by a Pokemon who loves to setup Rain Dance and has the highest special attack for a non-00ber water type and even has a super effective STAB.
This Pokemon I'm talking about being Omastar. If you don't believe me go check, Omastar has the 3rd highest special attack in the entire game for a water type only surpassed by Kyogre and Palkia. It has far more moves for a variety of roles, superior trait and even a similar to Glaceon but much higher base stat spread in everything except s.atk.
However Omastar is firmly a UU Pokemon and always has been and yet theres a consideration for a vastly inferior Pokemon going BL on one stat alone?
Its more like the bar for UU has been raised as well and if you keep throwing everything into BL theres going to be nothing left for NU soon enough.
I'll third that, Ninetales does have a solid case for discussion in D/P. The closest thing in UU resembling what Ninetales can do are Hypno and Shiftry who are vastly inferior. Although Shiftry can do Leaf Storm/Nasty Plot at least.
Water/Rock does not 4x resist Ice, and Omastar is not as powerful as Glaceon. Also, Glaceon is as likely to carry HP Fighting as Omastar is to carry Ancientpower/HP Rock.
There are quite a few decent arguments on both sides of the debate on Glaceon, but this isn't one of them.
There are quite a few decent arguments on both sides of the debate on Glaceon, but this isn't one of them.
My bad I was thinking of fire for some reason its a 2x resist alright.
However you're utterly completely wrong on power, Omastar is far superior with its respected weather in effect. For example assuming they hit a pokemon with 200 s.def.
Omastar Hydro Pump w/Rain = 352-413 damage
Omastar Surf w/Rain = 279-328 damage
Glaceon Blizzard w/Hail = 256-300 damage
Omastar Hydro Pump = 234-275 damage
Glaceon Ice Beam = 203-238 damage
Throw in the fact Omastar would have double speed in rain, is normally EV'd in speed unlike Glaceon and it gets STAB on Ancientpower unlike Glaceon HP Fighting and the facts speak for themself.
The base power of a move almost always answers for more damage than the actual attack stat of the pokemon.
However you're utterly completely wrong on power, Omastar is far superior with its respected weather in effect. For example assuming they hit a pokemon with 200 s.def.
Omastar Hydro Pump w/Rain = 352-413 damage
Omastar Surf w/Rain = 279-328 damage
Glaceon Blizzard w/Hail = 256-300 damage
Omastar Hydro Pump = 234-275 damage
Glaceon Ice Beam = 203-238 damage
Throw in the fact Omastar would have double speed in rain, is normally EV'd in speed unlike Glaceon and it gets STAB on Ancientpower unlike Glaceon HP Fighting and the facts speak for themself.
The base power of a move almost always answers for more damage than the actual attack stat of the pokemon.
Unfortunately, you must admit having to drop Ice Punch for Aqua Jet (a pretty essential move given Azu's huge Atk and bad Speed) really makes its position shaky. If the thing could have the coverage of a physical Ice move and the utility of Aqua Jet going for it in the same set, I'd definitely say BL. But as it stands now, like you said, it is just a [mid-to-]late game cleaner, almost solely because of Aqua Jet.
And there are tons of those late game sweepers that are stuck in UU this gen (Swellow is the most glaring example that comes to mind), so I think Azu in UU wouldn't be too much of a shock.
Wow I totally forgot about this guy. This could potentially be a massive threat as a CBer in UU. X-Scissor/Close Combat/Stone Edge/Earthquake covers almost everything, with no bulky Ghosts to worry about.
Even Heracross, a top tier threat in OU, has three solid counters there, whereas Pinsir in UU seems to only have the one. The question I'm posing therefore is this. Wouldn't the inclusion of Pinsir in UU force every team to carry Gligar, and thus overcentralize the UU metagame a tad?
I worry that this may be the case, as the lack of power that held back Pinsir in Advance is now a distant memory. What does everyone else think?
Surely Glaceon will pack HP Fighting most of the time, whereas Omastar will never use HP Rock? Ice Beam/Surf is good type coverage (except Waters), and it is more of a tank/utility Pokemon anyway, so will rarely have more than 2 attacking moves if not Rain dancing. Even if I were Rain Dancing I'd sooner pack HP Grass for Waters/Quagsire, or HP Electric for Waters/Mantine.
Plus Mold Breaker negates the stray levitator's resistance to Earthquake. Even with Hyper Cutter you're in a pretty good position... I vote yes to putting Heracross jr. in BL, he's extremely strong (That's a good thing! =D, go Pinsir).
At Bologo: Jesus christ I'm really sorry dude, that's the last time I try and go off memory for a debate. My apologies.
However, at the expense of sounding like a broken record I would still like to debate Thunder Wave's usefulness in increasing Octillery's viability for BL. I can't think of a single enemy that provides a hard counter to Octillery in UU. He can Thunder Wave pretty much everything that's faster, and then use his varied movepool+expert belt/life orb to do significant damage.
Yes the threat of Thunder Waving one single Pokemon is certainly equivilent to a 6-0 sweep. Hmmmm.
Plus is one of the strongest/fastest physical sweepers in the UU game in general.
I'll start you off with Limber Hitmonlee. Resists Octillery's two strongest physical options, immune to paralysis and can easily shake off special attacks and can Close Combat or Hi-Jump Kick the Octopus to hell.
Plus is one of the strongest/fastest physical sweepers in the UU game in general.
I'd don't like endorsing unnecessary moves but I honestly can't find a fault with a argument of BL Pinsir besides its low HP. Calling it Heracross Jr. doesn't do it justice since it has its own tricks like being able to Stealth Rock, Quick Attack, Flail and its traits.
One thing I'd definitely mention is that if you're using a life orb, it becomes noticable as soon as you attack once. So if you switch Probo in on an Ice Beam like you had mentioned, it realizes that you have a Life Orb and can switch out (of course, that doesn't solve the problem of having Glaceon, but it prevents you from losing Probo without expecting it). I hadn't thought of using Wish/Hail in the 4th slot, though. That could work pretty well, actually.
Though it doesn't have a 100% foolproof counter, I'm still leaning towards UU at this point. As someone else mentioned, it's a glass cannon and gets beaten up by Life Orb recoil, SR, and any other hits. It also has a very difficult time switching in with just one resist. (Also, while not standard counters, the Hitmons all have high sp def and can heavily damage Jolteon with their fighting attacks. CB Iron Fist Mach Punch does about 70%)
I forgot to respond to this earlier, but...
No, just...no. Having Roost makes SR moot? If Articuno takes 50% damage when it comes in, it's struggling to stay alive. Most of the sweepers it's trying to wall are faster than it (85 base speed is nice, but the sweepers will be running speed and Articuno wants to beef up it's defenses) and can easily take off at least 50% of HP in two hits, even if Articuno is EV'd to survive hits completely from that side of the spectrum. Seriously, with SR up, Articuno can't be relied upon to tank.
At this point I'm almost surprised Pinsir isn't prefered over Heracross, as it has no Psychic weakness, no 4x weakness to flying, the same base attack stat and same base total, and his movepool being improved enough now to where it's almost hard to fit everything in, with x-scissor, earthquake, close combat, swords dance, stone edge, etc.
After a single Swords Dance, Life Orb Pinsir's Stone Edge is a guaranteed 2HKO on Gligar, Damage: 63.47% - 74.55% Even if Gligar roosts, he is likely in for a 3hko or risks Pinsir SD'ing up further.
This of course, is assuming Gligar would be allowed in UU considering it's a NFE, (which, I don't agree with allowing any NFE into UU aside from special cases such as Scyther.)
If Pinsir is allowed UU however, and it shouldn't be, I'll definitely be using one there, it's actually pretty amazing now.
After a single Swords Dance, Life Orb Pinsir's Stone Edge is a guaranteed 2HKO on Gligar, Damage: 63.47% - 74.55% Even if Gligar roosts, he is likely in for a 3hko or risks Pinsir SD'ing up further.
This of course, is assuming Gligar would be allowed in UU considering it's a NFE, (which, I don't agree with allowing any NFE into UU aside from special cases such as Scyther.)
If Pinsir is allowed UU however, and it shouldn't be, I'll definitely be using one there, it's actually pretty amazing now.
Firstly, Heracross has Megahorn while Pinsir is stuck with X-Scissor. 40 more BP makes a big difference despite the lower accuracy.
Secondly, STAB on CC. I'm pretty sure Pinsir can't 2hko Skarm with CC since it doesn't have STAB, but Hera can.
Also, while being part-fighting does add some weaknesses, it also adds a few resistances (most importantly rock, Pinsir is weak to SR while Hera isn't).
Obviously, you trade some good things for bad, and Skarmory is OU so he being able to counter Pinsir effectively doesn't say much for Pinsir being too powerful for UU.
I also didn't do the calcs, but in regards to your analogy of heracross being able to 2hko skarm with cc, he probably gets OHKO'd by brave bird after just one stat reduction from close combat. And like I said, none of that is really relevant to Pinsir in UU. My calculations regarding Gligar however, may be.
First hit it on the switch in and outspeed and kill it next turn.
Except... the point holds true when Skarm switches in. Which it typically will do. Hera can 2HKO Skarmory then, and Skarmory cannot counter him. In fact, Heracross has almost no counters to speak of; to my knowledge, it's ONLY Gliscor. Pinsir can be countered by plenty of Physical tanks with an added Rock weakness to boot; no Megahorn (120 BP vs 180 BP; it's a 60 damage difference Fishin), no STAB Close Combat, and no Pursuit for hitting things on the switchout.
Almost nothing can do something against Scarf Hera. Almost nothing can switch into Band Hera. Pinsir is a difference story. So why is Pinsir > Heracross now?
Well those Stone Edge calculations on Gligar have confirmed it for me. Pinsir has no true counter in UU. Let's not forget that, unlike Gliscor vs. Heracross, Gligar is unable to even come close to OHKOing Pinsir with Stone Edge or Aerial Ace, and may even struggle to 2HKO without any Attack investment. I cannot believe I didn't take this into account before.
@ Yoshi King: I actually think Hyper Cutter would be more beneficial than Mold Breaker in UU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most Levitators BL or above anyway? The only two in UU I can think of off the top of my head are Carnivine and Rotom, the former of which resists Earthquake anyway and the latter so frail it'd probably still be 2HKO'd by X-Scissor.
Hyper Cutter, however, could be key as it prevents Intimidate Hitmontop from walling the CB set, leaving it vulnerable to the 2HKO from Close Combat. I just don't see many situations where Mold Breaker would be useful in UU.
@ Yoshi King: I actually think Hyper Cutter would be more beneficial than Mold Breaker in UU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most Levitators BL or above anyway? The only two in UU I can think of off the top of my head are Carnivine and Rotom, the former of which resists Earthquake anyway and the latter so frail it'd probably still be 2HKO'd by X-Scissor.
Hyper Cutter, however, could be key as it prevents Intimidate Hitmontop from walling the CB set, leaving it vulnerable to the 2HKO from Close Combat. I just don't see many situations where Mold Breaker would be useful in UU.
Though it doesn't have a 100% foolproof counter, I'm still leaning towards UU at this point. As someone else mentioned, it's a glass cannon and gets beaten up by Life Orb recoil, SR, and any other hits. It also has a very difficult time switching in with just one resist. (Also, while not standard counters, the Hitmons all have high sp def and can heavily damage Jolteon with their fighting attacks. CB Iron Fist Mach Punch does about 70%)
Glaceon is a glass cannon?
What is Grumpig then? 65/110/95 = 80/65/110
How about Gorebyss? 65/110/95 > 55/105/75.
And come on, who leaves Glaceon in against Hitmonchan?
I admit Stealth Rock isn't healthy for Glaceon, but what Stealth Rocker can switch into a 130 Base STAB Ice Beam, likely eat a second one, and live to tell the tale? We've already established the Steel/Ground contingent can't do that on the LO set if you pack HP Fite. Kabutops, Sudowoodo, or Omastar are the only things that won't neccesarily have better things to do. Clefable is currently being debated, Wigglytuff gets 2HKOd by even Scaef Glaceon Ice Beam unless it maxes out SD. Solrock and Lunatone could be made faster, but are destroyed by Shadow Ball. Miltank and Chansey are BL. Kabutops is the only thing that's both faster than Glaceon and can switch in. Even the 252 HP Defensive Omastar can still get 2HKOd by LO or Specs Ice Beam. (Though LO should use HP Fite to follow up).
If I were running Kabu, I'd really much rather take the risk and Stone Edge Glaceon. Considering if I don't I set up Rocks only to be immediately slaughtered.
Either way, the only SR user than can switch into Glaceon and scare it off 100% is Kabutops. Everything else gets absolutely slaughtered by Ice Beam before it can move. Unless you feel like Scarfing a Rocker, if you don't have rocks before Glaceon is in you aren't likely to get them in afterward, at least not on LO sets.
Pinsir's problem is and will always be no fighting STAB. Next to nothing uses Flying or Psychic attacks that Hera can't either slaughter before it moves, and the fighting type gives a great benefit in rock nuetrality and bug resistance.
Glaceon is a glass cannon?
What is Grumpig then? 65/110/95 = 80/65/110
How about Gorebyss? 65/110/95 > 55/105/75.
And come on, who leaves Glaceon in against Hitmonchan?
I admit Stealth Rock isn't healthy for Glaceon, but what Stealth Rocker can switch into a 130 Base STAB Ice Beam, likely eat a second one, and live to tell the tale? We've already established the Steel/Ground contingent can't do that on the LO set if you pack HP Fite. Kabutops, Sudowoodo, or Omastar are the only things that won't neccesarily have better things to do. Clefable is currently being debated, Wigglytuff gets 2HKOd by even Scaef Glaceon Ice Beam unless it maxes out SD. Solrock and Lunatone could be made faster, but are destroyed by Shadow Ball. Miltank and Chansey are BL. Kabutops is the only thing that's both faster than Glaceon and can switch in. Even the 252 HP Defensive Omastar can still get 2HKOd by LO or Specs Ice Beam. (Though LO should use HP Fite to follow up).
If I were running Kabu, I'd really much rather take the risk and Stone Edge Glaceon. Considering if I don't I set up Rocks only to be immediately slaughtered.
Either way, the only SR user than can switch into Glaceon and scare it off 100% is Kabutops. Everything else gets absolutely slaughtered by Ice Beam before it can move. Unless you feel like Scarfing a Rocker, if you don't have rocks before Glaceon is in you aren't likely to get them in afterward, at least not on LO sets.
Pinsir's problem is and will always be no fighting STAB. Next to nothing uses Flying or Psychic attacks that Hera can't either slaughter before it moves, and the fighting type gives a great benefit in rock nuetrality and bug resistance.
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