DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Steven718]

Almost nothing can do something against Scarf Hera. Almost nothing can switch into Band Hera. Pinsir is a difference story. So why is Pinsir > Heracross now?

I said "I'm almost surprised" I didn't say Pinsir is better than Heracross, I said it has some points to it that are better than heracross, and listed them, do you see that in my post now?

Again, Heracross situationally being able to 2hko Skarmory has nothing to do with Pinsir being UU.

 

[Deck Knight]

Well those Stone Edge calculations on Gligar have confirmed it for me. Pinsir has no true counter in UU. Let's not forget that, unlike Gliscor vs. Heracross, Gligar is unable to even come close to OHKOing Pinsir with Stone Edge or Aerial Ace, and may even struggle to 2HKO without any Attack investment. I cannot believe I didn't take this into account before.

@ Yoshi King: I actually think Hyper Cutter would be more beneficial than Mold Breaker in UU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most Levitators BL or above anyway? The only two in UU I can think of off the top of my head are Carnivine and Rotom, the former of which resists Earthquake anyway and the latter so frail it'd probably still be 2HKO'd by X-Scissor.

Hyper Cutter, however, could be key as it prevents Intimidate Hitmontop from walling the CB set, leaving it vulnerable to the 2HKO from Close Combat. I just don't see many situations where Mold Breaker would be useful in UU.

Relying on Stone Edge for a 2 or 3HKO is shaky. While it is technically true that Gligar can't switch into LO Pinsir, Pinsir can't switch in to Gligar. Since most of the Gligar in UU are Attack and Speed oriented with Jolly, Gligar wins the speed war against Adamant and its a toss up when both are Jolly. Max Attack Adamant Gligar 2HKOs Pinsir with Aerial Ace, OHKOs after a Swords Dance. In any battle scenario:

Pinsir used Swords Dance
X switched in Gligar

Gligar used Swords Dance
Pinsir used Stone Edge! (if this does not CH, Gligar wins.)

Remember folks, Stone Edge's 80% accuracy is worse than Megamiss, I mean, Megahorn. There's also the small matter of Pinsir being outsped by Scarfers. Pinsir is nowhere near unstoppable, even with its new toys. Stone Edge is therefore an 64% guarenteed 2HKO after a Swords Dance.

 

[Steven718]

Why would a pokemon switch into something that is supposed to be it's counter? You don't see Skarmory switching into Magnezone, why would you take into consideration Pinsir switching into Gligar?

Stone Edge is a possible OHKO on Gligar after 1 sd, if Gligar is Jolly and max attack/def with 4 hp ev's. Your calcs are all over the place. And yes you need to take it's miss % into account, but then it's hax rate too.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Relying on Stone Edge for a 2 or 3HKO is shaky. While it is technically true that Gligar can't switch into LO Pinsir, Pinsir can't switch in to Gligar. Since most of the Gligar in UU are Attack and Speed oriented with Jolly, Gligar wins the speed war against Adamant and its a toss up when both are Jolly. Max Attack Adamant Gligar 2HKOs Pinsir with Aerial Ace, OHKOs after a Swords Dance. In any battle scenario:

Pinsir used Swords Dance
X switched in Gligar

Gligar used Swords Dance
Pinsir used Stone Edge! (if this does not CH, Gligar wins.)

Remember folks, Stone Edge's 80% accuracy is worse than Megamiss, I mean, Megahorn. There's also the small matter of Pinsir being outsped by Scarfers. Pinsir is nowhere near unstoppable, even with its new toys. Stone Edge is therefore an 64% guarenteed 2HKO after a Swords Dance.

But Pinsir may also have Quick Attack to finish off a crippled Gligar after Stone Edge, which isn't a bad option with Swords Dance and Life Orb. I'd also like to see the calcs for Life Orb/Swords Dance Stone Edge against a minHP/min Def Gligar that you are suggesting. If it doesn't OHKO, it'd be damn close.

EDIT: Also, with Quick Attack, Pinsir may be able to forgo some speed in order to beef up its HP/Defense, should that make any difference.

 

[Steven718]

But Pinsir may also have Quick Attack to finish off a crippled Gligar after Stone Edge, which isn't a bad option with Swords Dance and Life Orb. I'd also like to see the calcs for Life Orb/Swords Dance Stone Edge against a minHP/min Def Gligar that you are suggesting. If it doesn't OHKO, it'd be damn close.

EDIT: Also, with Quick Attack, Pinsir may be able to forgo some speed in order to beef up its HP/Defense, should that make any difference.

Even with Max def and 4 hp ev's, it's a possible OHKO, low chance but even then, Jolly Gligar is outsped by even Adamant Pinsir if Gligar has no speed investment. If it were min/min it's a definite OHKO (If gligar has speed and attack maxed)

Jolly Gligar, with 252atk/252speed/4hp takes Damage: 106.99% - 126.10% from adamant, LO Pinsir after 1 SD, guaranteed OHKO, no crit needed.

There's no reasonable way that Gligar can switch in to Pinsir.

 

[Deck Knight]

But Pinsir may also have Quick Attack to finish off a crippled Gligar after Stone Edge, which isn't a bad option with Swords Dance and Life Orb. I'd also like to see the calcs for Life Orb/Swords Dance Stone Edge against a minHP/min Def Gligar that you are suggesting. If it doesn't OHKO, it'd be damn close.

So we'd have Swords Dance/Quick Attack/Stone Edge/X-Scissor @ Life Orb.

Thats awesome! Said the Aggron as it walled you to all hell. Perhaps you'll use EQ over X-Scissor to deal with Aggy. Just don't go whining to me when your UnSTABed attacks are laughed off by Poliwrath or Solrock, or Torterra if it's let in.

Actually, SD LO Stone Edge can OHKO No HP/Def Gligar half the time, but again you sacrifice a lot of coverage to include Quick Attack.

But remember, Stealth Rock also applies to Pinsir.

Either way, Pinsir was already so powerful last gen that its new improvements really do send it up to BL. There really is no way to stop it from sweeping your entire team after a Swords Dance.

 

[Steven718]

Actually, SD LO Stone Edge can OHKO No HP/Def Gligar half the time, but again you sacrifice a lot of coverage to include Quick Attack.

It's a guaranteed OHKO if Adamant.

 

[Thorns]

IMO Honchkrow should be moved down to UU, since it may be powerful, but most UU tanks can beat it down.
Abomasnow should stay in BL, since there are no automatic weather changers in UU, unless you're thinking, like, Golduck or something. If it were to be moved down, Wallrein would likely dominate.
I am of mixed opinions about Cloyster. There are many better options than it, but it would be rather good in UU. I'm leaning towards chucking in the UU tier, though.

 

[QibingZero]

My bad I was thinking of fire for some reason its a 2x resist alright.

However you're utterly completely wrong on power, Omastar is far superior with its respected weather in effect. For example assuming they hit a pokemon with 200 s.def.

Omastar Hydro Pump w/Rain = 352-413 damage
Omastar Surf w/Rain = 279-328 damage
Glaceon Blizzard w/Hail = 256-300 damage
Omastar Hydro Pump = 234-275 damage
Glaceon Ice Beam = 203-238 damage

Throw in the fact Omastar would have double speed in rain, is normally EV'd in speed unlike Glaceon and it gets STAB on Ancientpower unlike Glaceon HP Fighting and the facts speak for themself.

The base power of a move almost always answers for more damage than the actual attack stat of the pokemon.

While I don't see the point of drawing this out, you're not considering the fact that Omastar has to set up a finite Rain Dance while if Glaceon is in hail, it's 99% of the time a result of Snow Warning. This not only means Glaceon doesn't have to set up to reach it's power, but that it can use a variety of items such as Choice Specs, which allow it to do crippling damage even to pokemon that resist Ice. Specs Blizzard does more than your inaccurate Hydro Pump in rain, by the way, though I still don't see why this matters since it won't happen in UU.


More on topic, do you think Gligar is really still going to be in UU? He's NFE and simply a weaker stat-wise replica of Gliscor. I really don't see the point of worrying over Pinsir vs Gligar when it's likely never going to happen in D/P.

 

[Elminster12]

IMO Honchkrow should be moved down to UU, since it may be powerful, but most UU tanks can beat it down.
Abomasnow should stay in BL, since there are no automatic weather changers in UU, unless you're thinking, like, Golduck or something. If it were to be moved down, Wallrein would likely dominate.
I am of mixed opinions about Cloyster. There are many better options than it, but it would be rather good in UU. I'm leaning towards chucking in the UU tier, though.

Re: Cloyster. Want it to be clear...

I'd have to agree with this sentiment. It takes a laughably large amount of damage from just about any special attack ever. In fact, it takes 27-32% from a Blastoise Surf(neutral nature no EVs Blastoise to max HP Cloyster). And Blastoise....well, Blastoise isn't exactly a special-attacking juggernaut, even by UU standards. Then there're the weaks to fighting and rock that kinda mess with the whole "physical tank" potentiality. Set up SR and it's already down to 75%. 27-32% from a random Surf from the blandest bulky water ever is kinda a lot. And it's not like it can recover or anything either...

 

[Dragontamer]

IMO Honchkrow should be moved down to UU, since it may be powerful, but most UU tanks can beat it down.

125 base Atk, and 105 base Sp. Atk with 71 speed.

Nasty Plot boosts that 105 Sp. Atk. It gains dark / psychic / ghost as attacks (Dark Pulse, Psychic, and Shadow Ball), and IIRC, dark / HP Fighting should give complete coverage.

I dunno, seems a bit powerful. What UU tanks were you thinking of?

 

[Fishin]

Glaceon is a glass cannon?

It's defensive stats aren't bad, admittedly. But Grumpig has a much better defensive typing (Psychic isn't a particularly great type defensively, but Ice is just about the worst you could ask for), better defensive ability, and a better defensive movepool.

And come on, who leaves Glaceon in against Hitmonchan?

Idiots. But if you've scared it off, that's part of the job done right there - it's out of the field. Remember that Glaceon is very difficult to switch in, and still has to contend with Stealth Rock.

As for Stealth Rockers that can scare off Glaceon...granted, there are few. The usual strategy is to set up SR ASAP, however, so trying to switch one in on Glaceon isn't much of a problem. On the other hand, Rapid Spin is a bit harder to block in UU, with no real defensive ghosts (Drifblim doesn't count as defensive). So...once again, while it's difficult to find a 100% sure way to beat Glaceon in a situation like this, I'm of the opinion that Glaceon should be tested in UU before being placed in BL. Despite it's obvious power, it still isn't particularly difficult to kill, and there are plenty of pokemon out there that can take a hit from it and either KO or do heavy damage in return.

Skarmory is OU so he being able to counter Pinsir effectively doesn't say much for Pinsir being too powerful for UU.

You were asking why people didn't use Pinsir over Heracross, not whether or not Pinsir deserves UU.

 

[Deck Knight]

It's defensive stats aren't bad, admittedly. But Grumpig has a much better defensive typing (Psychic isn't a particularly great type defensively, but Ice is just about the worst you could ask for), better defensive ability, and a better defensive movepool.


As for Stealth Rockers that can scare off Glaceon...granted, there are few. The usual strategy is to set up SR ASAP, however, so trying to switch one in on Glaceon isn't much of a problem. On the other hand, Rapid Spin is a bit harder to block in UU, with no real defensive ghosts (Drifblim doesn't count as defensive). So...once again, while it's difficult to find a 100% sure way to beat Glaceon in a situation like this, I'm of the opinion that Glaceon should be tested in UU before being placed in BL. Despite it's obvious power, it still isn't particularly difficult to kill, and there are plenty of pokemon out there that can take a hit from it and either KO or do heavy damage in return.

LOL Glaceon is not that hard to switch in, not when you consider the fact it counters most of its would-be counters with HP. Whats Probopass going to do to it, UnStabbed Earth Power or Thunderbolt? It can easily eat a Surf or Waterfall. It can even switch in on Gligar since EQ isn't going to take it out. Granted it won't have much left if Gligar Swords Danced and it'll be gone if it has Life Orb, but generally you don't switch it in.

Seriously: Rock, Fighting, and Fire attacks just aren't that abundant in UU, and Steel is even more rare. Sunnybeamers can't take it out with HP Fire, even in the Sun. Most of the Users of STAB Rock attacks can't switch in in the first place. Glaceon can move in on special walls like Hypno and hit it with Shadow Ball.

I grant you 252/252/4 probably isn't the wisest spread unless you're going for Scarf. Otherwise you only need about 44 speed EVs to outspeed Poliwrath at Base 70. 120 outspeeds Blastoise, which is about the only no-speed water you'll find at that Base speed. You can put the rest in HP and boost your durability substantially, or focus on one particular defense and keep HP untouched so Life Orb doesn't cut in as much. I mean, Glaceon is going to beat any of its would-be walls with only a little speed investment. It shouldn't even try to approach your +Speed Base 85s, and even Scarfed unless you really, really want to beat Scyther and Manectric you don't need to max speed.

All I know is I used Scarf Glaceon in OU to great success. Unlike OU where 100+ speed pokemon are rampant, most of the UU pokemon are slow or slower than Glaceon anyway.

 

[Lady_Lyndis]

I have this to bring to the table.
Some of these may not be in the tier i think they are atm so forgive me if i argue about something being something it already is.

Pikachu: If hes BL than that needs to change. Light ball chu isnt good enough for bl/ou (standard). He is to slow to use his powers, and anything practically ohkos him..

Kabutops should be BL, hes really good.

Zangoose shoukd be bl, not ou.
Froslass should be uu/bl NOT ou. I use her and luv her, but she isn't good enough for ou

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I have this to bring to the table.
Some of these may not be in the tier i think they are atm so forgive me if i argue about something being something it already is.

Pikachu: If hes BL than that needs to change. Light ball chu isnt good enough for bl/ou (standard). He is to slow to use his powers, and anything practically ohkos him..

Froslass should be uu/bl NOT ou. I use her and luv her, but she isn't good enough for ou

Again, the point isn't their merits in OU, but how uncounterable they are in UU. It's pretty much like Mew; it's not so good in Uber but it's banned as it would overcentralize the standard metagame otherwise.

 

[Chou Toshio]

About Articuno and Glaceon-- when considering them, I think it's very important to keep in mind how much ICE does in UU.

Compared to OU, not much. No dragons stomping all over the field, and bulky grass types like Meganium simply aren't nearly as afraid of stabbed ice beams, especially since without sandstorm around they synthesis/morning sun/moonlight up without worries. As for ground types, they're already so concerned about all the water and grass types running around, a couple more ice types is probably is the least of their worries. Compared to something like the aforementioned meganium, glaceon can't shrug off their attacks and set up on them.

On the resistance side, viable "Bulky Waters" are everywhere, and with the potential for a number of ice/water types hanging around UU, glaceon's ice beam is just . . . not that scary. The rock/steal type walls block it out too.

Glaceon/Cuno obviously have the stats, but I don't see them having a particular nitch to take adantage of . . . specifically, they don't have a special advantage against the top threats in UU . . .

 

[Chou Toshio]

By the way, where does smeargle fit in all this?

 

[sandman]

About Articuno and Glaceon-- when considering them, I think it's very important to keep in mind how much ICE does in UU.

Compared to OU, not much. No dragons stomping all over the field, and bulky grass types like Meganium simply aren't nearly as afraid of stabbed ice beams, especially since without sandstorm around they synthesis/morning sun/moonlight up without worries.

Are you kidding me, glaceon has 130 base power sa and your saying meganium doesn't mind taking a stabbed ice beam? Even blissey has trouble with glaceon and nothing in uu really stops it so it is likely to be boder line, articuno is a stalling machine and a defiant borderline, also smeargle is borderline, its too fast in uu to learn every move, but isn't overused ether.

 

[Steven718]

By the way, where does smeargle fit in all this?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29788 or, if you're too lazy to look, he is listed in BL.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Are you kidding me, glaceon has 130 base power sa and your saying meganium doesn't mind taking a stabbed ice beam? Even blissey has trouble with glaceon and nothing in uu really stops it so it is likely to be boder line, articuno is a stalling machine and a defiant borderline, also smeargle is borderline, its too fast in uu to learn every move, but isn't overused ether.

I didn't say "doesn't mind," I said "Not as afraid of . . ." compared to dragons.

I'm not saying Meg could wall Glaceon (lol, that is funny), and I'm sorry if that missunderstanding occurred. You're not going to be switching it in on glaceon . . . I just mean that it doesn't get simply destroyed by ice attacks like Garchomp or Salamence would. If you max out HP and Sp. Def (not saying you would, but you could . . .), Glaceon's unboosted ice beam has no chance of 1hko (79% max). Add in light screen or leech seed on the switch in, and leftovers, and Meganium can stay in a turn on Glaceon and get its health back later against a different opponent, in other words it's not SO crippled that it's out of the game. If Glaceon were as powerful as we're making it out to be, than pokes like Meganium who are threatened by it should just be GONE after going toe to toe with it.

I'm just saying that Glaceon's threat to bulky grass types in UU (which are probably one of the weaker groups to its icebeam) isn't the same threat (simply in terms of damage) it poses to dragon types.

I mean, we're talking about banning it from UU because it's special attack is too powerful right? If that's the case it should at least be able to completely blast away pokes that are weak to its STAB. If Mewtwo's psychic wasn't powerful enough to take out every OU fighting type, that would be funny right?

 

[Forsety]

While I don't see the point of drawing this out, you're not considering the fact that Omastar has to set up a finite Rain Dance while if Glaceon is in hail, it's 99% of the time a result of Snow Warning. This not only means Glaceon doesn't have to set up to reach it's power, but that it can use a variety of items such as Choice Specs, which allow it to do crippling damage even to pokemon that resist Ice. Specs Blizzard does more than your inaccurate Hydro Pump in rain, by the way, though I still don't see why this matters since it won't happen in UU.

What is this crap about while Glaceon is in hail, you've completely neglected HAIL HAS TO BE SET UP AND ABOMASNOW IS IN BL. Therefore common sense dictates all Glaceon can use is Specs/LO Ice Beam in UU at the very strongest

Finite Rain Dance is little issue with the ammount of Swift Swim users available in UU who will also be trying to set up Rain and the fact as a fast sweeper 4 turns is already enough for something like Omastar to run amok.

Also LO on Omastar beats Glaceon's Specs and guess what? Omastar can still change between moves. If you don't like the Omastar comparissons than theres a simplere reason it couldn't do as much as you'd think. Light Screen.

Glaceon can be tested in UU before any other consideration of BL because quite frankly its a joke it can even be considered too strong. This is seriously just a knee jerk reaction.

Glaceon is a glass cannon?

Ice as a defensive typing is suicide already making it weak to 3 of the best offensive typings and its HP is less than desirable which makes its good defenses rather pointless.

How about Gorebyss? 65/110/95 > 55/105/75.

Yeah lets completely forget Gorebyss can learn Amnesia and Iron Defense AND Baton Pass....

Hera can't either slaughter before it moves, and the fighting type gives a great benefit in rock nuetrality and bug resistance.

On the other hand lack of fighting type gives 100 base def and no 4x flying weakness. Its less prone to be OHKO'd.

IMO Honchkrow should be moved down to UU, since it may be powerful, but most UU tanks can beat it down.

Maybe considering Absol has 70 speed and it just does it no justice. On the other hand Honchkrow has Insomnia and a dual flying type actually giving it opportunities for switch ins.

No, just...no. Having Roost makes SR moot? If Articuno takes 50% damage when it comes in, it's struggling to stay alive.

True but at least Articuno has resistances, stats and an immunity to switch in on.

Some of these may not be in the tier i think they are atm so forgive me if i argue about something being something it already is.

Then why don't you save everyone some time and go read the big sticky thread.

 

[Gmax]

I didn't say "doesn't mind," I said "Not as afraid of . . ." compared to dragons.

I'm not saying Meg could wall Glaceon (lol, that is funny), and I'm sorry if that missunderstanding occurred. You're not going to be switching it in on glaceon . . . I just mean that it doesn't get simply destroyed by ice attacks like Garchomp or Salamence would. If you max out HP and Sp. Def (not saying you would, but you could . . .), Glaceon's unboosted ice beam has no chance of 1hko (79% max). Add in light screen or leech seed on the switch in, and leftovers, and Meganium can stay in a turn on Glaceon and get its health back later against a different opponent, in other words it's not SO crippled that it's out of the game. If Glaceon were as powerful as we're making it out to be, than pokes like Meganium who are threatened by it should just be GONE after going toe to toe with it.


I'm just saying that Glaceon's threat to bulky grass types in UU (which are probably one of the weaker groups to its icebeam) isn't the same threat (simply in terms of damage) it poses to dragon types.

I mean, we're talking about banning it from UU because it's special attack is too powerful right? If that's the case it should at least be able to completely blast away pokes that are weak to its STAB. If Mewtwo's psychic wasn't powerful enough to take out every OU fighting type, that would be funny right?

Since when did Meganium become a 252 HP/252 SpDef + SpDef Special Wall? Last time I checked it was a Support Pokemon which had its EVs split between HP, Defense and Special Defense. It also usually runs SOME Special Attack.

Calcs for Modest Max SpA Glaceon vs Meganium

252 HP/0 SpDef:95-111%
252 HP/76 SpDef(+ Nature) or 252 HP/180 SpDef::80-94%
252 HP/252 SpDef(+Nature):67-81%

Yeah, factor in Light Screen and Leech Seed, its still a 3HKO, whatever spread you're running. Since its likely that you run the second set, Meganium is one dead Flower Dino.

IMO Honchkrow should be moved down to UU, since it may be powerful, but most UU tanks can beat it down.
Abomasnow should stay in BL, since there are no automatic weather changers in UU, unless you're thinking, like, Golduck or something. If it were to be moved down, Wallrein would likely dominate.
I am of mixed opinions about Cloyster. There are many better options than it, but it would be rather good in UU. I'm leaning towards chucking in the UU tier, though.

Honchkrow. UU. Wow, can you just imagine what will happen when Honchkrow uses this set on all the mediocre things trying to counter it in UU?

Screech
Sucker Punch
Pursuit
HP [Preferred Wall Kill Type]


Aggron says gg with HP Fight/Ground, Screeched Sucker Punch/Pursuit will do shitloads to anything else which tries to stop it. Since you don't need to invest in Speed with Sucker Punch(and you still outspeed stuff you want to be killing with HP Fight). Probopass will not enjoy HP Fight either. Its a 3HKO without EV investment, and a 2HKO with 252 EVs neutral. Nosepass cannot OHKO either. So basically, it will rape UU.

Nasty Plot+Dark Pulse+HP Fighting will be just as destructive, if not more what with Hypno being the best special wall. The lack of speed however hurts it.

 

[Pneuma]

Glaceon's unboosted ice beam has no chance of 1hko (79% max)

What if, for some horrible accident, the Glaceon had Choice Specs? =P

 

[Thunderpup]

Honchkrow. UU. Wow, can you just imagine what will happen when Honchkrow uses this set on all the mediocre things trying to counter it in UU?

Screech
Sucker Punch
Pursuit
HP [Preferred Wall Kill Type]


Aggron says gg with HP Fight/Ground, Screeched Sucker Punch/Pursuit will do shitloads to anything else which tries to stop it. Since you don't need to invest in Speed with Sucker Punch(and you still outspeed stuff you want to be killing with HP Fight). Probopass will not enjoy HP Fight either. Its a 3HKO without EV investment, and a 2HKO with 252 EVs neutral. Nosepass cannot OHKO either. So basically, it will rape UU.

Nasty Plot+Dark Pulse+HP Fighting will be just as destructive, if not more what with Hypno being the best special wall. The lack of speed however hurts it.

I am one against Honchkrow in UU, but I think that you're stopped by any fighting pokemon ever. Let me remind you HONCHKROW IS AS SLOW AS PASTE. meaning that any pokemon that outruns your bird will probably eat it for breakfast.

Or what about a sub-puncher? What about Sub-Seeders?

What about any pokemon who can set up on this set? This isn't that exciting to me. This doesn't seem broken.

 

[Chou Toshio]

What if, for some horrible accident, the Glaceon had Choice Specs? =P

None of the comments made about mine were fair to the arguement I was making, which I'll re-explain like this:

We're talking about banning it-- and it needs specs just to kill even pokes it should pose the biggest threat to. (it's best case scenario)

Let alone things pokes meant to counter it. (it's worst case scenario) =P