I was thinking of Inheritance because i'm stupid, ignore me.Except Snorlax doesn't get Knock Off.
I used max defense av with regenerator to decent effect, you don't get worn out by hazard which is pretty nice. And you can switch on some stuff you wouldn't normally, like a draco from latios and pursuit it.Snaq knows I haven't played as much aaa as I'd like to but I don't see snorlax as an S rank threat. The other two S ranks can pull off multiple effective sets, snorlax basically has one relevant one. For it to be S, that one set would have to be really incredible, but it has never felt as outwardly threatening to me. Either it runs crunch or it has to play around ghosts a lot, it's slower than just about everything beside ferrothorn without priority to make it up and can be somewhat vulnerable to offensive teams giving it issues setting up. I think the difference is that skarm never feels useless, lax doesn't exactly feel useless but sometimes you wish it wasn't slow, was a bit bulkier, or had any useful resists, or even just a different set that was effective.
Edit: has anybody used non PH to any great effect? The best I could get was a scrappy cb set that was decent but not great
Seconding this, as someone new to the tier I ran a team with Lucario / Suicune wincons and the former worked out really really well. It's surprising how few teams have more than 1/2 stops to Lucario, and paired with Healing Wish Skymin / Jirachi this thing can come in to chip an erstwhile check enough that it can sweep a team later on in the game. I was actually pretty surprised at how much damage output this thing had even before an SD (and especially after). Definitely A+ imo~**A -> A+
On the offensive side of things, Lucario is one of the best Extremespeed users in the tier (if not the best), and once combined w/ SD + Great Coverage not much can really beat it once it sets up. Refridgerate is my ability of choice most of the time, but Tough Claws is actually really threatening if you manage to kill all the faster ghost types (gengar mainly)
Bunch of nominations:
to mid / high B
Defensive Swampert with Poison Heal is actually really good, taking on a lot of common threats such as Entei (almost all relevant Fire-types actually), Doublade, and like all Electric-types such as Raikou which has gotten a lot more popular lately. Shaymin is annoying for it but it doesnt like switching in nor does it prevent it from getting up rocks, and you can use Protect to scout its moves anyway.
to low A
For some reason a lot of people tend to be unprepared for fast and strong Electric-types, and Raikou is the best one in the tier. It does tons of jobs well ranging from Magnet Pull trapper to Primordial Sea pivot while outspeeding the majority of the tier and gaining momentum. A rise to A- may seem big but I believe Raikou is better than all B+ Pokemon and most A- Pokemon as well.
to mid C
I recently tried this thing because in theory its dual stabs with Adaptability should be very threatening against common balance teams and it actually worked exactly as anticipated vs Motherlove in the open so I'm just going to drop this here. The set I'm using is SubWisp but things like Choice Scarf are good too.
to mid C
Same story as Rotom-F. Chandelure is a pretty cool balance breaker with stuff like SubCM, Specs, Scarf, Taunt + Wisp, etc and offers some unique resistances with its typing, especially coupled with abilities such as Desolate Land. Overall overshadowed in most areas but is the better fit for some teams.
to low B
Mega Lopunny is actually a pretty cool Pokemon because its one one of the few things on offense that can beat Shaymin without having to resort to choice-locked priority and overall does a great job at checking Doublade and offensively supporting the team with Fake Out chip damage and stuff like Healing Wish (personal favorite), Encore, and Quick Attack (often defeats Gale Wings users combined with Fake Out and hazards). Protect and priority are annoying for it though and keeps it from a higher rank.
to S
Shaymin is kind of ridiculous in how it restricts teambuilding with its lack of good switchins and insane Speed to go with it. People are even calling for a suspect and I can definitely see where they're coming from, as even with multiple checks / soft counters such as Zapdos, Skarmory, and AV Regen Escavalier, its insanely hard to deal with and has a 40% chance to still Seed Flare its way through them. Not going to expand on this too much because I think its long overdue.
to mid B
Speaking of Escavalier, its AV Regenerator set is actually quite good and is one of the few semi reliable checks to Shaymin as well as other things such as Latios, Gengar, Raikou, and Mega Diancie. Just a good pivot and Pursuit trapper which I noticed wasn't ranked yet.
Hi this thread was really useful as I was building for AAA Open so I'll post some noms of my own oo
**A -> A+
Zapdos is honestly one of the best pokemon in the tier at the moment. Being the best check to such a huge portion to the metagame (birds, steels, waters) and its rank should really reflect that. Its pretty much the best defensive pivot in the tier, with great abilities like Unaware / Delta Stream in order to switch in on such a large portion of the metagame and get off a defog along w/ Volt Switch in order to pivot out of bad match ups or in order to gain the switch advantage thats so key.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-322708521
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-314058513
**A -> A+
On the offensive side of things, Lucario is one of the best Extremespeed users in the tier (if not the best), and once combined w/ SD + Great Coverage not much can really beat it once it sets up. Refridgerate is my ability of choice most of the time, but Tough Claws is actually really threatening if you manage to kill all the faster ghost types (gengar mainly)
**B+ -> A-
Garchomp is actually a really cool pokemon w/ access to great Abilities such as Adaptability / Magic Bounce. As an offensive rock setter, not much can take an Adapatability boosted Outrage basically guaranteeing it rocks up, and with a Sash + SD it can even threaten common magic bouncers. The other set I had a lot of fun using was SD + Magic Bounce as it prevents Chomp from getting Phazed out + stopped by status or Taunt. Its actually a reallty threatening sweeper that can just plow through unprepared teams.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-327024158
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-327030384
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-322704694
**B- -> B
Blastoise is actually one of the most reliable spinners in the tier as with poison heal it can reliably switch in multiple times and get off a spin in order to remove hazards for its teammates. It also has a lot of cool utility moves like Foresight to spin on Ghosts and Roar to phaze out Sweepers / Rack up Hazard damage, its honestly my favorite spinner in the tier.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-327024158
Thats really all I can think of rn, I'll post more in the future if i do manage to play some games
I feel like Tyranitar should move upto somewhere in A, it's extremely good at what it does. It's a probably the best Pursuit trapper in the meta atm with Scarf revengekilling things like Gengar/Latios reliably in offensive teams as well as checking loads of threats thanks to its amazing STAB moves boosted by Adaptability. With band it becomes near impossible to switch into and provides a ton of support vs bulkier, slower teams with Pursuit.
...w...wait...imas is taking over for imas?I'm here to announce that imas234 is taking over!
You can!...w...wait...imas is taking over for imas?
or can you literally replace users for others on their own posts ._.
Here are some nominations, I think more should be changed but just starting the conversation here :)
Suicune to A+/S: I would say its the best PH abuser, and I see no reason for Snorlax to be above it, especially with Skymin gone. Suicune is so important that people run storm drain sets pretty much exclusively for it, its as good of a mon as there is in AAA. Its physical bulk is insane, the only reason it shouldn't be S in my mind is because everyone prepares so heavily for it, which speaks to how good it is.
TTar to A+: Pursuit trapping is so good in this meta. Regenvest set can be great
Tentacruel to B+: Its typing is perfect to stop physical attackers and toxic spikes go great for defensive team.
Goodra to B: Without Skymin, this just isn't that good anymore. It can stop Gengar and Thundy, but so can plenty of other mons that can also pursuit trap.
Volcarona to A: I see no reason for this to be in B. This is as scary of a setup sweeper as there is, and it can also run powerful desolate land sets for immediate power, which also beats primsea users due to solarbeam.
Doublade should probably drop to A for now, but tosay it was never S-rank is just exaggeration - it's been S-rank for over 9 months and was nearly the best mon in the metagame for quite some time (outside of Skarmory). Not too sure about Latios or Cune tbh, I've used Latios extensively but I'm not sure what qualities make it an S-rank threat. Suicune is irrelevant to me since I run magma storm taunt desotran on half of my teams.Hi, I'm proposing a couple things.
Doublade: S -> A+/A
Latios: A+ -> S
Suicune: A+ -> S
Doublade, well, it's not worse off than it was before, but upon speaking to multiple people about this I've come to the conclusion that it probably shouldn't have been S in the first place. Sure it's splashable, but only on offensive teams. It does a hell of a good job of checking fires/prio but it's easily whittled (regen isn't as splashable) + with honchkrow's rising popularity, its role as a gale wings check is hindered, honch also has a role to play in boosting zapdos' popularity, which also happens to check, if not counter doublade. Also, while it is a setup sweeper, it's often not able to actually setup and sweep teams very easily, it fears all of the tier's special attackers and unaware stops it cold in its tracks. Like xjownage said, most teams will pack a doublade check even without specifically putting in one (any special attacker is an offensive check, suicune, regen manaphy, popular gw check zapdos, etc)
Latios and Suicune are comparable to Skarm as they are, imo, the biggest threats in the meta right now. Suicune is a very reliable win condition vs any team without a dedicated counter and Latios is the meta's most feared special attacker due to it's high speed, high base powered STAB in Draco and Psyshock to take care of would be counters like Chansey (adapt) and Melo (tinted). Even with counters present, Suicune can act as a physical sponge and spread burns throughout your team with the best move in the game, not to mention any desoland counters are worn down quite easily with hazards up + suicune can roar them into taking more hazard damage. Latios is decent even with a counter present because of the pressure it puts on the opponent + the utility it can provide with either trick or defog.
So, what do you guys think? Are these changes something you agree with? If not, why not?
s/o to the great discussion in the om room a few days back for helping me list all these points, wouldn't be able to act like i know what i'm talking about without you!
Ez 2hko by hp ground cune at +1.Doublade should probably drop to A for now, but tosay it was never S-rank is just exaggeration - it's been S-rank for over 9 months and was nearly the best mon in the metagame for quite some time (outside of Skarmory). Not too sure about Latios or Cune tbh, I've used Latios extensively but I'm not sure what qualities make it an S-rank threat. Suicune is irrelevant to me since I run magma storm taunt desotran on half of my teams.
Sorry for taking over thread but oh well:
Manaphy A --> S
Good ole manaphy, it has everying you should want to be at the top of the tier. Its tail glow set is as scary as it gets, and it has a variety of abilities to use with it; motor drive makes thundy just help you sweep, primordial sea stops entei/victini and powers up scald, and I've been using a poison heal set that's been really good. In addition, regenvest manaphy is amazing. With access to knock off, scald, and u-turn, it is a perfect utility set that has the bulk and typing to switch in to more than you think it can.
Alakazam unranked --> A
Its unranked because no one has tried it, not because its bad. Its very comparable to sheer force Gengar, but it is much faster and actually hits a bit harder. The speed is really important as it outspeeds and OHKOs scarf pursuit tyranitar, which Gengar doesnt. It OHKOs things like thundurus and offensive manaphy, and it 2hkos suicune. These traits make it better than Gengar, but I think it should be below gengar because it is predictability going to be sheer force every time, and doesn't have the normalize/no guard possibilities that Gengar has. More importantly, it doesn't have Gengar's great typing. When i brought Zam up in chat, the only argument against it was it doesn't hit hard enough. I think these people don't realize just how strong Zam is, due to this power and speed it can absolutely tear through offensive teams.