Moltres Hidden Power

Which Hidden Power type do you prefer on Moltres?

  • HP Ice

    Votes: 43 41.0%

  • HP Electric

    Votes: 10 9.5%

  • HP Grass

    Votes: 22 21.0%

  • HP Fighting

    Votes: 15 14.3%

  • HP Ground

    Votes: 12 11.4%

  • HP Water

    Votes: 3 2.9%
  • Total voters
    105
gabriel

gabriel

READ THE COMMENTARIES BEFORE VOTING

When you vote, please, post on the thread your reasons.

I made a thread to discuss about Moltres Hidden Power. Now I'd like to know what does the community think about it. Please read the arguments before voting.

If you want to see the whole discussion (I highly recommend so) here's the link for the original thread.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30150

Summary:

dpmfa146.png


- Moltres will need support no matter which type you're running. And I mean much more than a Spinner to get rid of Stealth Rock.

- Moltres is also pretty fragile, and can't switch out with ease, specially with that 4x weak to SR. You should be aware of this if you want to use it.

- Moltres Hiddden Power should be able to counter basically:

. Gyarados
. Garchomp
. Salamence
. Dragonite
. Tyranitar
. Rhyperior
. Swampert
. Heatran
. Bulky Waters

Bulky waters are not really a threat and take an acceptable damage from Air Slash, so we won't focus on them.

Now let's go to the dilemma.

HP Ice/Electric:

They're usually the best offers and give a cool coverage. You can counter Gyarados and Bulky Waters with Electric and Dragons with Ice which is a big plus.

But they leave you helpless against Tyranitar, Heatran, Rhyperior and Swampert. The best you can do to counter them is to WoW on the switch or U-Turn to an appropriate counter. Silver610 suggest to use a Focus Sash Weavile/Lucario to cover its big Tyranitar weakness. Here's the set he suggested.

Modest Moltres@ Choice Scarf

- Overheat
- Flamethrower/Air Slash
- Hidden Power Ice/Electric
- U-Turn

U-Turn to if you predict any counter, and sweep with your boosted speed. I'd use WoW somewhere to burn Ttar and Rhyperior.

Ground/Fighting:

It lets you counter Tyranitar, who otherwise would screw you badly, and also hurts Heatran and Empoleon. Will-o-Wisp is the only way of handling Dragons (except for Special Mence/Nite) to counter them, I suggest Slowbro or Blissey, depending on what you want to counter. Here's my suggestion for a set.

Timid Moltres@ Choice Specs/Life Orb

- Overheat/Flamethrower
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power Fighting/Ground
- Will-o-Wisp

Use Will-o-Wisp when you predict a counter and switch to a wall when you have no way of staying.

HP Grass:

The only option that lets you truly counter Swampert, Rhyperior and some Bulky Waters. Wow and U-Turn are the best you can do to counter Tyranitar and Dragons.

HP Water:

It hurts Heatran, Rhyperior and other fire types SE, but lacks against the other threats.

That's it guys. Feel free to vote on which HP type you prefer on Moltres.
 
Thanks. =]

I added Bulky Waters to HP Grass, and Empoleon to Ground/Fighting.

Let's hope people will explain their vote so we'll have a really good thread.
 
I just don't like the way that even with HP Fighting, Moltres still can't beat Tar one on one, whereas with HP Ground/Ice/Grass, the threats that are design for the HP to beat get OHKO'd and Moltres wins 1-on-1.

(voted for Ice btw)
 
The other options are cool but have overall less coverage - I mean, I'd much rather switch in a Tyranitar/Swampert counter than limit Moltres' versatility.
 
Sir Spanky said:
I just don't like the way that even with HP Fighting, Moltres still can't beat Tar one on one, whereas with HP Ground/Ice/Grass, the threats that are design for the HP to beat get OHKO'd and Moltres wins 1-on-1.

(voted for Ice btw)
Click to expand...

Yes there is. Thunder pup posted some interesting calculations on last thread's first page. Have a look there.
 
I normally just run Grass, as Swampert normally gives my Moltres teams so much trouble.

Not to mention so many other things make good Dragon counters I don't worry about them much.
 
It depends on the team. When running Ice, you should have a good TTar counter, and any team with moltres MUST have a spinner.
 
People, please remember that HP Fight + Air Slash is only resisted by Rotom and Zapdos. So it's not like you are screwed against most things. You also forget that Moltres should honestly Will-o-Wisp when you first send it out, allowing you to hamper all of these "counters." Blissey will still wall Moltes unless it is in the sun, so there's no way around that.

Basically, my gist is that Air Slash / Will-o-Wisp / Roost helps Moltres function the best. The last move can be any of these HP's (HP Fight providing the most coverage) or Flamethrower for outright power.
 
I've been testing Moltres out so I can update his analysis and I've found that HP Fighting is the most useful (on Specs sets at least). Sure, Ice is good for KOing Dragons but you're helpless against Heatran and Tyranitar. You need to consider how much damage he actually does with his STAB moves. HP Fighting makes him a lot harder to wall than the other HP types. Here's some damage calcs.

383 (max) Special Attack Moltres with Choice Specs

Minimum HP/Special Defense Salamence
Overheat 67 - 79% (30 - 35% on the second hit)
Fire Blast 57 - 67%
Air Slash 72 - 85%

Minimum HP/Special Defense Garchomp
Overheat 59 - 69% (26 - 31%)
Fire Blast 51 - 59%
Air Slash 63 - 75%

Max HP/Minimum Special Defense Swampert
Overheat 50 - 58% (22 - 26%)
Fire Blast 43 - 50%
Air Slash 53 - 63%

384 HP/Minimum Special Defense Gyarados
Overheat 48 - 56% (21 - 25%)
Fire Blast 41 - 48%
Air Slash 52 - 61%

Of course, OHKOing them is always preferable but even without the appropriate Hidden Power you can still do serious damage.
 
That's what I said all the time on the previous thread. You can counter Dragons and Gyarados without HP Ice/Electric, while you can do nothing but scratch Tyranitar and Heatran without HP Fighting/Ground.

Thanks a lot for posting those calculations Phuquoph.
 
But then again thats assuming Modest with CSpecs, while most will be Timid w/ CSpecs. I do see your point there Phuquoph, but both Salamence and Garchomp out speed you, and can most likely OHKO with either Draco Meteor or Outrage. You have swayed my mind a little though.

EDIT: What HP would you suggest for this set:

Modest@CScarf
-Overheat
-Air Slash/Flamethrower
-U-turn
-HP ???
 
Choice Specs Overheat = Hit and Run
CS Overheat + SR can OHKO Salamence
Does more than 70% on Garchomp
And about 80% on Gyarados.

Next time they dare to switch in, even Air Slash will OHKO. What's the point of HP Ice/Electric now?
 
gabriel said:
Choice Specs Overheat = Hit and Run
CS Overheat + SR can OHKO Salamence
Does more than 70% on Garchomp
And about 80% on Gyarados.

Next time they dare to switch in, even Air Slash will OHKO. What's the point of HP Ice/Electric now?
Click to expand...

HP Ice makes sure they can't switch back, and for my set, Air Slash wouldn't be doing as much, which is why I need HP Ice.
EDIT: maybe I need and new set...

Is power>speed?
 
Timid is only useful against Modest Salamence (and other stuff like Modest Porygon-Z, Lucario, etc.), since the other three are either slower (Swampert and Gyarados) or faster than you regardless of your nature (expect an Adamant Garchomp, which is rare).

Fire Blast and Air Slash will both still 2HKO Salamence if you use Timid Moltres. After all this testing and running calcs I don't think I'd ever use another Hidden Power outside of Fighting or Ice. The others are basically decent alternatives on Wifi if you get sick of soft reseting when you're trying to catch Moltres.
 
Phuquoph said:
Timid is only useful against Modest Salamence (and other stuff like Modest Porygon-Z, Lucario, etc.), since the other three are either slower (Swampert and Gyarados) or faster than you regardless of your nature (expect an Adamant Garchomp, which is rare).

Fire Blast and Air Slash will both still 2HKO Salamence if you use Timid Moltres. After all this testing and running calcs I don't think I'd ever use another Hidden Power outside of Fighting or Ice. The others are basically decent alternatives on Wifi if you get sick of soft reseting when you're trying to catch Moltres.
Click to expand...

I can't argue with that, but what HP should I use for this set, if I should use it at all:

Modest@CScarf
-Overheat
-Air Slash/Flamethrower
-U-turn
-HP ???
 
Silver610 said:
HP Ice makes sure they can't switch back, and for my set, Air Slash wouldn't be doing as much, which is why I need HP Ice.
EDIT: maybe I need and new set...

Is power>speed?
Click to expand...

You mean a Scarfer set? Then, it's okay, as Overheat won't cause so much damage.

But now I'm sure about Choice Specs HP Fight Moltres is the best set, as it can handle most of Moltres threats.
 
Silver610 said:
I can't argue with that, but what HP should I use for this set, if I should use it at all:

Modest@CScarf
-Overheat
-Air Slash/Flamethrower
-U-turn
-HP ???
Click to expand...

If you're using U-Turn and Choice Specs, I'd prefer HP Ice as you can run from Tyranitar (a lot of prediction needed) and can't do much against dragons.

Even if you use HP Fight, without Choice Scarf it won't be able to OHKO Ttar, so it kinda lose its point;
 
I would be more inclined to use HP Ice on Scarf sets, since you can outspeed non-Scarfed Dragons and OHKO them. Without Specs you lose the power to 2HKO Garchomp (and Salamence has a chance of surviving three hits from Air Slash too) with your STAB moves, so he can switch in safely if you don't have HP Ice.
 
A lot of people are voting, but only a few are explaining their point of view, come on people, explain your reasons to try to increase the topic's content.
 
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