Follow The Leader [Pre Viability Ranking Discussion!]

[Plancklength]

Something that seems more concerning than gale wings, at least in theory mon is 6 illusion mons, espeically since zoroak actually has a decent movepool.

Notable Physical Moves: Aerial Ace, Bounce, Dig, Facade, Foul Play, Knock Off, Low Kick, Low Sweep, Pursuit, Return, Sucker Punch, U-turn.

Notable Special Moves: Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Flamethrower, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Hidden Power, Hyper Voice, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Snarl.

Notable Status Moves: Agility, Calm Mind, Memento, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Taunt.

Granted the physical movepool is kind of shallow, and walled by almost any fairy, but it's enough for a fair number of dark types, and the -ate megas (Mainly M-pinsir), and access to utility moves like knock off, pursuit, and u-turn is huge, and sucker is strong, if unreliable priority.
The special movepool is enough for most special attackers to use to some extent, due to the ghost+fighting combo.
And everything on its team has access to some of the best boosting moves possible as well as Memento support.

Not being able to tell what pokemon your opponent just sent out (barring differences in entry hazard damage, cause zoroak has no way to stop hazards other than taunt) turns the entire match into a huge game of prediction for the opponent.

Also Xatu Stall sounds super cool, and I don't think weather is actually dead. Once you get over setting manual weather, something like Excadrill's combination of sand rush and mold breaker (mold breaker is probably going to be important to actually break unaware/magic bounce teams) is huge. Exca also has a tiny, but possibly servicable special movepool of earth power, sludge bomb, focus blast, and hidden power, which could work for something like nidoking, and it's physical movepool is good anyway. Exca also offers both stealth rock and hazard removal. Stoutland might also work although it's movepool is generally worse and it lacks hazard removal.

Rain and Sun are also probably workable since both have a ton of donors, although I don't think any quite compare to what exca can donate, bar maybe gorebyss, because both shell smash and hydration sets to annoy bulky teams, similar to TGRD mana. Sun loses the flaw of having chlorophyll on grass mons instead of fire types, bar the donor, especially since victrebell has weather ball, giving everything actual fire coverage, in addition to things with nice secondary abilities like leaf guard, regenerator, or solar power.

Hail probably still is crap, although hail stall might possibly be serviceable due to the ability to run ice body on everything, and regen hp while chipping the opponent down.

 

[Stocke]

This has been stated before in the thread, I'm fairly sure, but I think Aegislash should be unbanned: As the donor it shackles its entire team with a useless ability and a movepool that, while not bad, isn't quite good enough to support an entire team, and as a recipient it relegates itself to a role as a near-completely-passive wall (unless you're using something with Power Trick as the leader, but I don't know if there are any viable Power Trick leaders and even then it leaves itself highly vulnerable to physical attacks). Granted it still has potential as a wall as its typing leaves it with some handy resistances and immunities, but it's not exactly banworthy. (plus it gets destroyed by the ever-present Talonflame teams)

edit: I just realized I basically repeated word-for-word what post #24 said, oops

well the point still stands

 

[Samoyed]

Obligatory Noivern can't have STAB boomburst post

 

[QT]

Obligatory Noivern can have STAB boomburst post

It can't. It can give stab boomburst, but can't have stab boomburst itself (no mon has protean and boomburst, or aerilate and boomburst- heck, no nonmega has aerilate.)

 

[Stocke]

It can't. It can give stab boomburst, but can't have stab boomburst itself (no mon has protean and boomburst, or aerilate and boomburst- heck, no nonmega has aerilate.)

I think what we really need to worry about is this:

Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-turn/Shadow Ball/Super Fang/Heat Wave/Roost/Taunt/etc.

okay, not really. Like I've said about nearly every prospective team leader here, Noivern has a few neat tools to work with, but not nearly enough to support an entire team (unless you want to make your entire team full of specially-offensive nukes, in which case, feel free)

 

[G-Luke]

Yh. Ima unban Aegi. The reason I didn't ban Illusion is cuz its movepool only really supports Dark and Ghost types, so an Illusion Garchomp eating a Tbolt aimee at a Water type won't happen (well). Its not hard to beat, you just have to get around Gengar. Its still interesting tho.

 

[Plancklength]

My main argument is that illusion is horrifying for a stall team to face because you don't know what the thing you're out against will do, or even whether it will be physical or special, let alone whether it's worth it to try to status it, and the movepool is adequate for most special attackers, since ghost+fighting is nigh perfect neutral, and it has adequate coverage for a fair number of things to run at least one STAB, although the physical movepool is admittedly garbage on almost any non-dark type.

The defensive purposes of illusion are extremely limited, but what is a stall team supposed to do if you don't know whether you're facing SD bisharp or NP alakazam (extrasensory isn't ideal, but is a workable STAB), or a stallbreaker gengar set?

Granted, Unaware partially makes up for the issue, assuming the stall team is running Unaware, but how is defensive play against an entire team of pokemon that you cannot tell apart until after you have attacked them supposed to work?

Edit:

Also in terms of Power Trick Donors, the best available are Alakazam, which isn't really suited to letting aegis use any attack after the swap, but is generally a pretty nice donor (Magic Guard, recover, etc.), Machamp, which does little better than Alakazam at helping aegis attack, Forretress, which has hazards and hazard control and has a very limited movepool outside of that, Gliscor which gives aegislash nothing, but isn't a bad donor itself, and Aegislash and Doublade themselves, which are both fairly pointless donors for this case.

 

[EV]

Serperior is a prime example of the high risk/high reward category. While it has a mediocre movepool, it has just enough options to build a team around, especially once you consider its ability Contrary. A team of 6 special Contrary users will be tough to wall, or there's the option to throw in a few physical attackers too, which will turn the tide against any teams stacked with Intimidate. Its biggest weakness is relying on Leaf Storm for Contrary abuse, which either requires you to run more Grass-types than what's ideal considering the Gale Wings archetype is looking common, or it means your special sweepers have to use a non-STAB attack to gain the initial +2 boost.

Physical: Knock Off, Aqua Tail, Leaf Blade, Iron Tail, Pursuit, Outrage, Dragon Tail
Special: Leaf Storm, Dragon Pulse, Wring Out, Giga Drain, Grass Knot, Solar Beam, Mirror Coat
Utility: Leech Seed, Taunt, Glare, Coil, Swords Dance, Synthesis, Calm Mind, Reflect, Light Screen
Lacks: Hazards, hazard control, cleric


Possible teammates:

Sceptile @ Sceptilite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ground
- Giga Drain / Calm Mind

Mega Sceptile is tricky because you have to use Leaf Storm before you mega evolve to get the Contrary boost, and afterward when you use Leaf Storm your Special Attack drops back down. However, it's the fastest Grass-type and you gain Dragon Pulse STAB. Plus when you're mega you can use Calm Mind later on in order to boost back up again.

Bisharp @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Iron Tail
- Knock Off
- Pursuit / Leech Seed / Taunt

Just an idea for a physical attacker you can run with Serperior. Most physical Dark, Steel, Water, and Grass Pokemon can work with Serperior's movepool thanks to two good setup moves and useful utility such as Taunt and Synthesis to aid in setup. The problem is you can't run a relevant ability unless you forgo the setup move, or you use a Grass-type, which stacks weaknesses.

 

[Maleovex]

Serperior is a prime example of the high risk/high reward category. While it has a mediocre movepool, it has just enough options to build a team around, especially once you consider its ability Contrary. A team of 6 special Contrary users will be tough to wall, or there's the option to throw in a few physical attackers too, which will turn the tide against any teams stacked with Intimidate. Its biggest weakness is relying on Leaf Storm for Contrary abuse, which either requires you to run more Grass-types than what's ideal considering the Gale Wings archetype is looking common, or it means your special sweepers have to use a non-STAB attack to gain the initial +2 boost.

Physical: Knock Off, Aqua Tail, Leaf Blade, Iron Tail, Pursuit, Outrage, Dragon Tail
Special: Leaf Storm, Dragon Pulse, Wring Out, Giga Drain, Grass Knot, Solar Beam, Mirror Coat
Utility: Leech Seed, Taunt, Glare, Coil, Swords Dance, Synthesis, Calm Mind, Reflect, Light Screen
Lacks: Hazards, hazard control, cleric


Possible teammates:

Sceptile @ Sceptilite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ground
- Giga Drain / Calm Mind

Mega Sceptile is tricky because you have to use Leaf Storm before you mega evolve to get the Contrary boost, and afterward when you use Leaf Storm your Special Attack drops back down. However, it's the fastest Grass-type and you gain Dragon Pulse STAB. Plus when you're mega you can use Calm Mind later on in order to boost back up again.

Bisharp @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Iron Tail
- Knock Off
- Pursuit / Leech Seed / Taunt

Just an idea for a physical attacker you can run with Serperior. Most physical Dark, Steel, Water, and Grass Pokemon can work with Serperior's movepool thanks to two good setup moves and useful utility such as Taunt and Synthesis to aid in setup. The problem is you can't run a relevant ability unless you forgo the setup move, or you use a Grass-type, which stacks weaknesses.

You could also run a decent parashuffler set with glate dtail synthesis filler, idk what mon I'd run though

 

[EV]

You could also run a decent parashuffler set with glate dtail synthesis filler, idk what mon I'd run though

Bulky Chomp comes to mind, tho it sorely misses access to any Ground STAB. Also I'd throw Leech Seed on there, probably over Synthesis, to further punish the opponent as you shuffle them around, in which case Protect can make a good 4th move.

 

[Angry2]

I am not sure if this has been discussed before but

has a lot of potential as a leader, It lacks hazards as a lot of them do, but it also has a lot of options, movepool wise, and ability wise slightly

Physical: Facade, Drain Punch, Bullet Seed, Focus Punch, Mach Punch, Power-Up Punch, Rock Slide, Seed Bomb, Seismic Toss (Kinda :P), Stone Edge, Superpower, Thunder Punch, Rock Tomb

Special: Energy Ball, Giga drain, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Sludge Bomb, Vacuum wave, Hidden Power

Utility: Bulk Up, Leech Seed, Rest, Sleep Talk, Protect [For PH], Spore, Substitute, Swords Dance, Synthesis, Toxic, Safeguard, Work-up [Mixed attackers], Worry seed

Good Teammates:

If you play AAA, Then you will know how centralizing PH Snorlax can be, and this is not an exception, It keeps facade, and gains priority in for of mach, It loses recover but atleast it gets Leech Seed or Synthesis, This pokemon also has something which it don't have in AAA, Boosting like SD and Bulk Up!

Same AAA thing, You lose scald for Leech seed, this pokemon also gets Seismic Toss and Grass Knot for coverage, It can be used as a sleep spreader with spore which also ain't scared from magic bouncers, or it can be a safeguarder, All in all this is not a bad pokemon with Breloom

AND

Well, This is a new thing, The main reason to use raikou is to be able to make benefit of PH while countering gale wings and not having to be part-rock because of rock's bad weaknesses, but regirock could function about as good due to higher defense, but worse typing

All in all I think Breloom would be a viable leader

 

[Angry2]

Yes, I know this is considered a Double Post and it discouraged, but this will be talking about a totally different topic than the first one, and the first one is already big enough, Anyway, Here is two questions:

1)How does event moves work? I mean does it work like inheritance where you have to keep the same shiny and nature as the event? I think flavour-based it will better to just ignore illegalities and whatsoever for a certain reason, it is that in inheritance you literally inherit the moves, so to get event moves you have to be like the same event like the real pokemon, so you have to be a calm heatran, but in this metas I would think it is "The leader teaches its moves to its followers" in which case, I think it should ignore the illegalities with abilities/nature/shiny

2)Who else thing the leader should be given the ability to be an Uber if wanted? so as for this the leader is the strongest one, so as the followers can be OU, why not make it so the leader, which is the stronger one, be an Uber like genesect or arceus? It's power will change the whole meta and change a lot of things, I do not have much to say about this one but this won't give more creativity for leaders but also followers could be given the ability to be an uber which needs its ability/move (Like blaziken or aegislash for example) and also they will be too weak without their moves, sometimes they can grow strong (If this gets accepted, then I can see Genesect as leader and blaziken as follower for nice power)

 

[Reisuke]

Yes, I know this is considered a Double Post and it discouraged, but this will be talking about a totally different topic than the first one, and the first one is already big enough, Anyway, Here is two questions:

1)How does event moves work? I mean does it work like inheritance where you have to keep the same shiny and nature as the event? I think flavour-based it will better to just ignore illegalities and whatsoever for a certain reason, it is that in inheritance you literally inherit the moves, so to get event moves you have to be like the same event like the real pokemon, so you have to be a calm heatran, but in this metas I would think it is "The leader teaches its moves to its followers" in which case, I think it should ignore the illegalities with abilities/nature/shiny

2)Who else thing the leader should be given the ability to be an Uber if wanted? so as for this the leader is the strongest one, so as the followers can be OU, why not make it so the leader, which is the stronger one, be an Uber like genesect or arceus? It's power will change the whole meta and change a lot of things, I do not have much to say about this one but this won't give more creativity for leaders but also followers could be given the ability to be an uber which needs its ability/move (Like blaziken or aegislash for example) and also they will be too weak without their moves, sometimes they can grow strong (If this gets accepted, then I can see Genesect as leader and blaziken as follower for nice power)

1) move illigalities are still in place.
2) i don't think this will happen since "gods and followers" is already a metagame

 

[The Immortal]

2)Who else thing the leader should be given the ability to be an Uber if wanted?

yeah no. that takes out the challenge of team building because ubers have big/good move pools.

 

[Ghoul King]

Actually, Ubers have surprisingly small movepools. (Note that I'm ignoring Megas, Aegislash, Landorus-Incarnate, Greninja, Blaziken, and Shaymin-Sky)

Arceus is the king of Ubers in versatility, with 132 different moves. It's Ability is useless to its allies, except if you're worried about Skill Swap/Entrainment shenanigans. It's also arguably king of hazards in Ubers, being the only one that can both set and clear hazards... though no shuffling options on it, so Groudon has advantages. Overall though it has pretty much any move you care to name.

Mewtwo is close behind Arceus in versatility, with 123 different moves. Unnerve is questionable unless Harvest teams prove popular, but Pressure is actually quite good as Mewtwo has a fairly good movepool for stalling. It even has Seismic Toss for Chansey to use. It also has setup on both sides, Psystrike to beat enemy Chansey with its Special attackers, dual screens, good coverage on both ends... Mewtwo probably does invalidate a lot of OU and below Pokemon that lack critical Abilities, I'll admit. (One of many Ubers with stall potential and no hazards, though)

Deoxys is the final Uber with more than 100 different moves, at 113 different moves. It can only provide Pressure to its allies, which is questionable if you want to construct an offensive team, but Deoxys has Spikes and Stealth Rock and recovery, with its only flaw for a stall-y team being it has no way to shuffle the enemy. It's got tons of utility moves, though, including Knock Off, Trick, Seismic Toss, Trick Room, dual screens, Pursuit, Taunt....

Lugia is next, with 99 different moves. (1 short of 100!) It's access to both Multiscale and Pressure of course makes it excellent for producing stall teams, though it's unfortunate how it has no hazards to set given its excellent access to shuffling tools. Its coverage is fairly diverse, and it does have access to Psycho Boost (Though, alas, you'll be stuck with Pressure if you take that), giving teammates potentially fairly impressive nuking ability -maybe a Mega Lati can put it to good use?

Rayquaza has 91 different moves. No recovery, its Ability does nothing if you're not facing a weather team... for a pure offense team it's pretty decent, having good coverage on both ends, among other things including the coveted V-Create, and Dragon Dance and Swords Dance for Physical boosting, but pure offense is about all it can support, and not even that well.

Groudon has 88 different moves, and is finally an Uber that can both set hazards and shuffle enemies. It also has Speed boosting, Physical boosting, decent coverage on its Physical movepool... but it has no recovery, its Special movepool is kind of bad, and it only has one Ability, and not one that's stellar on any teammate.

Darkrai also has 88 different moves. Boosting on both ends, a solid Special movepool and a workable Physical one (If nothing else you can partner it with something like Mega Medicham), priority, utility moves like Will O Wisp, and of course one of the best Sleep inducers and every member of the team punishes Sleeping enemies. Pulling off stall is impractical with it, though. Hyper offense is probably the way to go.

Giratina is next at 86 different moves. It's got three moves to shuffle with... and no hazards. It can Defog to clear away enemy hazards, but it has no recovery to really stall with, even though Pressure is a great stall Ability. Calm Mind, Hone Claws, and Charge Beam are its only boosting moves... it's pretty flawed, honestly, and probably not a good pick as a Leader out of Ubers. I'm not sure I'd take it if you made it freely available to an otherwise non-Ubers team.

Ho-Oh has 83 different moves. The team that will never die, and it can even clear hazards, though it can't set them, which is too bad given it has shuffling. Calm Mind is its only boosting move, and its Physical movepool is kind of crappy. May struggle to kill enemy teams and be forced to rely on out-stalling them.

Palkia has 82 different moves. Can shuffle, but has no hazards. Has no recovery. Its only boosting is Hone Claws and Bulk Up, which is unfortunate because its Special movepool is where it's at. Telepathy is useless in Singles and Pressure is useless to its team because what stall? Its Special movepool is decent, but for instance it lacks Scald. I'm not sure why you'd want it as a Leader, honestly...

Dialga has 80 different moves. It's another Uber that can both set hazards and shuffle! It also has no recovery, its only boosting is Hone Claws and Bulk Up (Though its Physical movepool is a bit better than Palkia's overall), and it has Metal Burst so that's cool. (But really you should run Sableye if you want Metal Burst) It's... a little better than Palkia, but much of what I said about Palkia still stands.

Genesect has 75 moves and a useful Ability! Just the one Ability. It of course has access to Shift Gear, so that instantly makes its team threatening, and U-Turn spam can let it frustrate you unendingly. Its Special movepool is excellent and its Physical movepool is okay, including some gems like Explosion (Imagine Mega Altaria Exploding all over your Unaware wall), and Techno Blast means its Special movepool includes Water coverage if you care. Extreme Speed of course combines well with an -ate Mega, for some reason it has dual screens (???), it can wipe useful enemy Abilities with Simple Beam... no hazards or recovery, but it's pretty solid as a hyper offense leader.

Zekrom brings 69 different moves to the table and Totally Not Mold Breaker. Dual screens, recovery, Volt Switch, Tailwind, the best Physical Electric moves in the game, decent Special coverage... only boosting is Hone Claws, no hazards, its Physical coverage is a bit more limited. Overall the biggest appeal is probably Bolt Strike/Fusion Bolt. Flawed, but potentially appealing.

Kyogre brings 67 different moves to bear. Limited Physical movepool, no recovery, Calm Mind is its only boosting, Special movepool is hardwalled by stuff like Storm Drain Ground/Water types. The potential to annihilate worlds with Scarf/Specs Rain Water Spout sounds nice, until you realize that the only reason Groudon teams doing the same with Eruption probably isn't superior is because Gale Wings teams are a strong incentive to run Flashfire and no equivalent pressure exists for Water immunity.

Reshiram has 66 different moves. Think Zekrom, only replace "best Physical Electric moves in the game" with "strong-but-not-best Special Fire moves in the game". On the plus side, where Electric is hard-walled by a type, Fire is only hard-walled by Flashire, and you ignore that. Too bad you don't get the correct boosting to support it.

Kyurem-White brings 62 different moves. It's broadly similar to Reshiram, only losing Will O Wisp in exchange for Ice moves. Eh.

Xerneas has a mere 58 different moves. Major statuses don't stick if you don't want them to, between Heal Bell and Misty Terrain, and its Physical movepool has some gems in it. Overall the main reason to grab it is, however, Geomancy spam. If you're not doing that there's probably better options.

Yveltal has an even smaller number of 57 different moves. Another fairly good hyper offense supporter, with stuff like Tailwind and U-Turn, and is even passable at stall between having a strong Foul Play combined with recovery, including Oblivion Wing. Can't do anything about hazards, among other flaws, and in general is fairly narrow.

----

Not arguing Ubers should be released as Leaders, just going over them to see what they actually bring to the table.

A lot of them kind of suck, honestly...

My main argument is that illusion is horrifying for a stall team to face because you don't know what the thing you're out against will do, or even whether it will be physical or special, let alone whether it's worth it to try to status it, and the movepool is adequate for most special attackers, since ghost+fighting is nigh perfect neutral, and it has adequate coverage for a fair number of things to run at least one STAB, although the physical movepool is admittedly garbage on almost any non-dark type.

The defensive purposes of illusion are extremely limited, but what is a stall team supposed to do if you don't know whether you're facing SD bisharp or NP alakazam (extrasensory isn't ideal, but is a workable STAB), or a stallbreaker gengar set?

Granted, Unaware partially makes up for the issue, assuming the stall team is running Unaware, but how is defensive play against an entire team of pokemon that you cannot tell apart until after you have attacked them supposed to work?

Edit:

Also in terms of Power Trick Donors, the best available are Alakazam, which isn't really suited to letting aegis use any attack after the swap, but is generally a pretty nice donor (Magic Guard, recover, etc.), Machamp, which does little better than Alakazam at helping aegis attack, Forretress, which has hazards and hazard control and has a very limited movepool outside of that, Gliscor which gives aegislash nothing, but isn't a bad donor itself, and Aegislash and Doublade themselves, which are both fairly pointless donors for this case.

I'd argue Illusion is more horrifying to face for offense, as errors mean losses even more consistently than with stall. Admittedly, offense has the advantage that you may well be running -atespeed or something else liable to bowl over an entire Zoroark team no matter what it's doing, but stall is in general a bit more resistant to mistakes.

 

[tehy]

the literal amount of moves learned is hardly a reasonable metric; rather, the amount of viable moves learned, which among legendaries is rather enormous - and crucially, includes moves from tons of different types, moves that a similarly typed Pokemon could only dream of getting their hands on. For example, here's most of Mewtwo's viable moves, courtesy of the PS teambuilder:

Aqua Tail, Aura Sphere, Blizzard, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Double-Edge, Drain Punch, Earthquake, Energy Ball, Fire Blast, Fire Punch, Focus Blast, Foul Play, Grass Knot, Hurricane, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Low Kick, Magic Coat, Poison Jab, Psychic, Psycho Cut, Psystrike, Recover, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Stone Edge, Taunt, Thunder, Thunderbolt, Thunder Punch, Thunder Wave, Trick, Will-o-Wisp

not to mention some usually useless moves in

Aerial Ace, Amnesia, Barrier, Iron Tail, Me First, Rock Tomb, Trick Room, Solar Beam, Self-Destruct, Torment, and Trick Room

Compare that to say, Alakazam, who would love to learn Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, and Ice Beam, maybe even WoW, but doesn't. (In this meta, it'd like to have all of those physical options for its followers too!)

Some of the other legendaries you're mentioning seem pretty damn powerful as well. Rayquaza, between a sick flying STAB, serviceable Dragon STAB, and Earthquake + V-create + Waterfall + Crunch + Iron Head + (Rock Slide / Stone Edge) + ExtremeSpeed, can give you a team of 6 super-diverse setup sweepers, its special movepool can provide you with special attackers to break physical walls, and it's no pushover itself with those 150 / 150 / 95 offenses, which can probably start a game off with enough holes punched to clean up later on.

 

[Ghoul King]

I'm not sure why you picked out Mewtwo as an example given I'm agreeing that it's got a great movepool. Comparing it to Alakazam also seems an odd choice given that Alakazam has a smaller movepool, and I'm not finding a single garbage-y move in Alakazam's movepool that isn't also in Mewtwo's. Mewtwo just has more. Furthermore, Mewtwo actually has notable holes in its coverage compared to Alakazam -Alakazam has Dazzling Gleam over Mewtwo on Special, and on Physical has Knock Off. (Foul Play is Mewtwo's only Physical Dark move, and Alakazam shares it) Between these moves and the superior Ability pool, there's actually teams where I'd rather run Alakazam as the leader than Mewtwo -Knock Off is huge in general, and Psychic/Fighting/Fairy is a very good combination of coverage, where Mewtwo has to settle for Psychic/Fighting/Ghost. (Which Alakazam can imitate, albeit it lacks the reliable Aura Sphere)

Nor did I focus entirely on movepool size. I was speaking to the possibilities they have, crucial categories like recovery, hazards, hazard clearing, boosting, and I also commented on Abilities, which most Ubers are flawed as Ability donors -Mewtwo's Unnerve is close to useless, and Pressure is fairly specific to a stall archetype, where Alakazam's Magic Guard, Synchronize, and even Inner Focus all have uses on various potential builds.

Most Ubers main advantage over lower-tier competitors is primarily a matter of decent-strength coverage, when it comes to the possibility of using them as a Leader. This is relevant, but lower tier Leaders open up scary stuff like Belly Drum Mega Metagross with Drain Punch and twin STABs. Strong coverage is mostly useful for reducing the extent to which your team runs into matchup problems, and imperfectly at that since it only really helps reduce type-based matchup problems.

But a lot of the really powerful/useful moves tend to require you look at lower tiers. (-atespeed being a notable exception, as four different Ubers have access to Extreme Speed, not counting Mega Lucario) No Shell Smash, no Boomburst, no Belly Drum, no sound-based Sleep (to combine with Mega Pidgeot's No Guard), no Fake Out... and of course Ubers aren't the place to be looking when you want powerful, influential Abilities, by and large. (Exceptions: Ho-oh and Lugia, more debatably Groudon and Kyogre)

 

[EV]

I'm having so much fun theorymoning for this metagame.

Corsola is an awful Pokemon with 3 really good abilities and a pretty solid movepool to go with them. It's just a shame you have to use Corsola ... Anyway, it gets Regenerator which can work on any archetype really: supportive, stall, or offense. Sadly there's no momentum to pair with it. Natural Cure gives you a nice status absorber option and can be put on attackers too. Lastly there's Hustle, which only fits on physical attackers. But my god does Hustle Head Smash look awesome!

Physical: Head Smash, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Sucker Punch, Explosion, Body Slam, Rock Slide, Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Spike Cannon, Counter
Special: Scald, Ice Beam, Earth Power, Power Gem, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Surf, Whirlpool, Blizzard, Mirror Coat
Utility: Stealth Rock, Recover, Calm Mind, Curse, Light Screen, Reflect, Aqua Ring, Ingrain, Magic Coat, Refresh
Lacks: Hazard control, clerical, good physical setup for fast mons, most major status moves, item control, phazing/stat control

Possible teammates:

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle / Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- HEAD SMASH
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Rock Blast
- Icicle Spear

A shame you can't use Fighting STAB but c'mon, Hustle Head Smash baby. I slashed Regenerator should you prefer to maintain better accuracy and the ability to mitigate recoil in exchange for sheer unrivaled power.

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Mirror Coat
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Psychic / Shadow Ball

Mirror Coat Regenvest Slowking is good in STABmons. It wants Fire coverage though.

Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Head Smash / Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Icicle Spear
- Curse / Stealth Rock / Mirror Coat

I wasn't really sure what direction to take this in. Tyranitar actually likes all 3 abilities, but Regenerator felt the most useful if you plan to mega evolve it later. Head Smash stacks well with Regenerator too, but if you want to use Curse Stone Edge is better. Just clear out Fighting and Fairy types if you're going to setup so you can use Sucker Punch to its fullest potential.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator / Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Recover
- Counter / Mirror Coat / Refresh

K.

 

[G-Luke]

No way to the Ubers Idea. This meta is already facing critisisim about being similar to G&F (even tho its almost nothing alike) so allowing Ubers to be Leaders would be the final nail in the coffin. Ho-oh gets Giga Drain for crying out loud! Also why would a Follower not face the same restrictions as its Leader? Its in the OP if you didnt notice.

Can we also get ACTUAL discussion on Kyurem-B? With replays telling why its broken if it is? It would be really appreciated since thats the current suspect.

 

[Stocke]

Can we also get ACTUAL discussion on Kyurem-B? With replays telling why its broken if it is? It would be really appreciated since thats the current suspect.

ok, I'll use the Mawile team I posted back on page 2 to test Kyurem-B

I need to find a replacement for Mega Medicham since you said it was banned as a part of the Huge Power/Pure Power ban but then I should be good to go

edit: I said this earlier in the thread but I'm Atael on Showdown, I'll be in the OMs room so send me a request there if you want to play

 

[Scyther NO Swiping]

I've been thinking about possible threats in this, and Yanmega came to mind. 2 great abilities in Speed Boost and Tinted Lens, and 1 average ability in Frisk, in addition to an okay movepool + momentum in U-Turn, make Yanmega a great lead for offensive teams. Also looking at the Physical Movepool, I think Mega Scizor would be a good teammate for it, as sure it may lose Bullet Punch, but it helps make up for it with Speed Boost, and 4 good technician boosted moves with Aerial Ace, Bug Bite / U-turn, Steel Wing, and Quick Attack/Pursuit/Feint Attack

Relevant Physical Moves - Aerial Ace, Bug Bite, Double-Edge, Facade, Feint, Feint Attack, Headbutt, Natural Gift, Night Slash, Pursuit, Quick Attack, Return, Reversal, Slash, Steel Wing, Thief, U-turn

Relevant Special Moves - Air Cutter, Air Slash, Ancient Power, Bug Buzz, Giga Drain, Hidden Power, Ominous Wind, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Silver Wind, Solar Beam, Struggle Bug, Swift, Uproar

Relevant Status Moves - Confide, Defog, Endure, Hypnosis, Mimic, Protect, Psych Up, Rest, Roost, Sleep Talk, Substitute, Sunny Day, Supersonic, Tailwind, Toxic, Whirlwind

Downside is that there are a lot of decent moves, but not really any great ones, it also lacks hazards, decent set up, and still gets rekt by birdspam.

Venomoth is another thing I see that could work for offensive teams. 3 great abilities in Tinted Lens, Wonderskin, and Shield Dust. Decent Physical movepool, U-Turn for momentum, decent Special Movepool, and a pretty good support movepool in addition to a good setup move in Quiver Dance. Maybe a Toxic Spikes + Venoshock combo? It has a fair amount of options.

Relevant Physical Moves - Acrobatics, Aerial Ace, Bug Bite, Double-Edge, Facade, Natural Gift, Poison Fang, Return, Secret Power, Thief, U-turn, Zen Headbutt

Relevant Special Moves - Air Cutter, Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Hidden Power, Infestation, Ominous Wind, Psychic, Signal Beam, Silver Wind, Sludge Bomb, Solar Beam, Struggle Bug, Swift, Venoshock

Relevant Status Moves - Agility, Attract, Baton Pass, Defog, Disable, Endure, Mimic, Morning Sun, Protect, Quiver Dance, Refresh, Rest, Roost, Screech, Sleep Powder, Sleep Talk, String Shot, Stun Spore, Substitute, Sunny Day, Supersonic, Tailwind, Toxic, Toxic Spikes

 

[QT]

Viability Rankings! This is preliminary, and I am currently only ranking things that have been discussed or used, just because there are already so many. If something isn't on here, that's probably why. Here ye go, GLuke. I'm looking for recommended followers and any rank change suggestions

S Rank
Clefable (Metagross-Mega, Heatran, Diancie-Mega, Volcarona, Azelf)


A+ Rank
Kecleon (Kyurem-Black, Salamence, Azelf, Landorus-T, Latios, Alakazam)
Mew (anything (Pidgeot-mega, Heatran))
Nidoking (Gengar, Latios, Thundurus)

A Rank
Arcanine (Aggron, Heatran, Pangoro)
Nidoqueen (Gengar, Latios, Thundurus)
Dragonite (Altaria-Mega, Pinsir-Mega, Pidgeot-Mega, Glalie-Mega, Salamence, Garchomp, Heatran)
Sableye (Cresselia, chansey, suicune)

A- Rank
Zoroark (Bisharp, Houndoom-Mega, Gengar)
Breloom (cresselia, terrakion, hippowdon, blissey, snorlax, suicune, Regirock)

B+ Rank
Dragalge (Latios, Latias, Gengar, keldeo, Starmie, thundurus, Hoopa-C)
Mawile (Gengar, heatran, Metagross, Metagross-mega)
Slowbro
Slowking

B Rank
Gliscor
Jirachi
Lucario
Manaphy

B- rank
Noivern
Swoobat
Sylveon
Xatu
Corsola
Klefki

 

[nightsitter]

Clefable works well with Mega Aerodactyl.

Mew works particularly well with Heatran and Mega Pidgeot.

I'll add more later

 

[Angry2]

Nominating Breloom for A at least, A+ if possible

I think breloom is a really leader with its various options defensively and offensively, Its teammates also helps against GW spam, especially regirock, Also special pokemon have JUST enough options to work, Vacuum wave and Giga drain and Focus Blast and also Sludge wave are the most notable, Technician Hidden Power Too, I always forgot to say these but banette [Possible teammate] is a notable helpful mega, Prankster Spore/Leech Seed/Substitute/More options and also focus punch, all that helps it a lot

This pokemon also helps against various high-ranked teams, You can always use priority to break the illusion then work forward, Shame no hazards or else it will work much better, as for mew teams it doesn't have the type advantage, but depending on the teams it actually could have a small advantage, and also against GW-Spam teams, I think Regirock can deal with them easily seeing they are Burdspam and fire attacks, Regirock can tank both easily, and ain't scared of no WoW, Clefable teams gotta be scared from sludge wave [Gengar is a possible teammate] and Strong Physical Fighting STAB [Die Chansey], Nidoking can form a problem tho, but again there is probably teammates I forgot about which can take care of Nidoking

 

[Isa Simple]

Am I the only one thinking that it is waaaaay too early to be having Viability Rankings? And not only that, but the whole complete Viability Rankings, S-D, with 62 possible leaders listed! I mean how many of those 62 leaders have actually been tested at this stage? What percentage of them even have sample teams?! There is no way this could be an accurate representation of the meta at this stage in time.
I could maybe understand having a VR for S to A- mons for what we think might become top threats, but beyond that it just seems stupid and completely random.
Honestly though, Octillery. Octillery. A pokemon that is E rank in PU, providing its team with 1 useful but niche asf ability, strong special coverage, barely usable physical coverage, thunder wave, and literally nothing else. Octillery. It is in C.
Do we honestly think it is better than any of the things it is ranked above? If the answer is yes, the pokemon you are saying yes to should be unranked.
And then I see things like Infernape in D rank. A high tier UU pokemon with respectable usage and ranking in OU, boasting 2 moderately good abilities, very wide physical coverage, solid special coverage, multiple boosting options for special and physical attackers, special and physical priority, reliable recovery, hazards, phazing, Will-O-Wisp, Taunt and more. That's a D rank mon for ya.

The viability rankings simply don't make sense. They are based on nothing. We should keep it to A- and above for now.

Anyway, rather than erupting over the VR, one thing which I wanted to get around to discussing was Talonflame.
I honestly don't think it is half as amazing as some people make it out to be (and I certainly don't think it is S rank material). Literally anything that isn't 2HKOed by Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, or perhaps Steel Wing, and has enough offensive pressure to prevent any attempts of setting up, can often deal with as least half a Talonflame team by itself. Any good team only needs two pokemon to match up reasonably well vs Talon and you're almost set.
Plus even if you do throw 1 or 2 pokemon into your team specifically to prepare for Talonflame (because perhaps you have a few mons weak to it) you really aren't losing out on anything, because most good Talonflame checks are really good pokemon in general, are extremely spashable, or have a lot to gain from this meta. Plus they often double as good checks to many other HO teams like Dragonite and Extreme Speed spam teams. Tyranitar, Heatran, Aggron, Regirock etc.
Also Natural Gift isn't the greatest argument for pushing Talonflame over the edge, because realistically almost 100% of teams will have at least 1 or 2 pokemon which can't do anything at all to Talonteams, and it would be silly not to sack them to scout for Natural Gifts. And then if you screw up your natural gift, you're gone. Plus running Natural Gift requires you to forgo CB or something on 1 or 2 of your pokemon which makes your team overall easier to deal with for teams that would otherwise be less prepared.
And don't get me started on how stupidly crippling that SR weakness + Recoil is.

I made 4 teams without Talonflame in mind, as I suggested these pokemon as leaders and made these teams before the Talon discussion really took off, and I played 4 games against my friend who grabbed a Talonteam from the thread. I won all 4 games. Now I realise that as this was some serious late night testing, we both made some really retarded moves in a couple of the games, which possibly affected the outcomes, but its easy to see how Talonflame teams do really struggle against a variety of different counters that aren't specially niche mons designed to counter the Birds. I'd hate to how a Talonteam would match up vs Extreme Speed Spam, or a defensive team with 2 or 3 actual dedicated checks. I'm not trying to say Talonteams are trash. But they definitely aren't S worthy. Maybe A rank is more suitable.

Dunsparce vs Talonflame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338549955

Barbaracle vs Talonflame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338551714

Druddigon vs Talonflame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338552931

Shiftry vs Talonflame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338555005

NOTE: And these are all teams that apparently suck because their leaders are all D rank or Unranked. (Actually upon another look, Shiftry is considered much better, in fact its just as good as Octillery!)

Also just lastly, I gave my friend a turn with my Barbaracle team and I got destroyed every time. Barbaracle has proved to be a very good leader, crushing all my other teams. So could we maybe consider ranking it? Perhaps even above Octillery?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338058608
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338068509