ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

[SuperSixFighters]

If Spiritomb was as strong as you made out, every Alakazam would carry dazzling gleam. Sableye has the same typing as tomb, and even that isn't that amazing...

To make this not a complaint about tomb (maybe c- rank for it?) ill nom ;).

People have already talked about pory z, but i feel it definitely needs to rise. Cress' ability to blanket check halfa tier is its only selling point to me, but porygons ability to do this while utterley destroying anything foolish enough to try to set up on it or not instantly attack it is great! While pory normally blanket checks half of uu, with sticky web up it can destroy at least another quarter. So please, consider a rise.

As for shaymin, i dont have much to put. Jusdt keep it there imo.

 

[bsu]

porygons ability to do this while utterley destroying anything foolish enough to try to set up on it or not instantly attack it is great!

elaborate on this plz how does p2 destroy anything that sets up? or at least what does it have that cress doesn't bc pretty sure cress gets twave too? and while i'm all for p2, its vulnerability to the very spammed knock off that pretty much any team will have (tangrowth and alo on stall for example, krook on offense/balance) kinda ruins its bulk :/

edit: never mind you're talking about porygon z!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
pz isn't so much a blanket check more so of as an offensive threat/wall breaker tho but i believe thats just semantics lol

 

[newfren]

another nom i have in mind is madre (Blissey) up to B because that mon is a savage and shits on nearly every special threat, making it one of stall's staples and an option to consider on fat balance teams (idt i'd ever do that myself but the option is there nonetheless) and i don't think B- does justice to it at all

Supporting this move for sure, I've actually been using blissey on a sorta intim + twave spam team that I know I've passed to a few people and it offers a lot of great shit for a balance/bulky offense team while threatening to para or set rocks on things that really offsets its passivity.

It's nice that we're seeing the shedloads of mscepts, because it totally it shuts it down, plus it actually beats zam that doesn't have cm/encore if you switch in on any move other than psyshock, and even against those it will get off a twave to let something like a krook come in and trap it.

Against most unboosted physical threats you can usually sac it to get a twave off if you need to - helps especially against aeros where you only need to keep bliss at around 60% to twave it, and pursuit eating up a moveslot means most aeros don't have the slot for taunt to shut you down.

 

[Kreme]

If Spiritomb was as strong as you made out, every Alakazam would carry dazzling gleam. Sableye has the same typing as tomb, and even that isn't that amazing...

To make this not a complaint about tomb (maybe c- rank for it?) ill nom ;).

People have already talked about pory z, but i feel it definitely needs to rise. Cress' ability to blanket check halfa tier is its only selling point to me, but porygons ability to do this while utterley destroying anything foolish enough to try to set up on it or not instantly attack it is great! While pory normally blanket checks half of uu, with sticky web up it can destroy at least another quarter. So please, consider a rise.

As for shaymin, i dont have much to put. Jusdt keep it there imo.

Regarding this PZ nom, are you somehow confusing PZ with some kind of PZ + P2 hybrid, or am I just very bad at reading sarcasm? Because last I checked Porygon-Z isn't amazing defensively and it's only use is offensively where it's been on the decline honestly with more offensive playstyles being prominent (which it has trouble against) and Sableye also increasing in popularity due to Alakazam, as well as being good in general. Alakazam's presence also increases the usage of priority and Escavalier, more things PZ doesn't appreciate having against it. So yeah no rise for Porygon-Z imo.

 

[dodmen]

Changes:

Mega Sceptile: A- to A. I really don't want to move this any higher than high A - it's not that strong so it only really performs well against bulky offense (in the HO matchup it's very hard to mega), considering the ubiquity of Florges on balance teams and increasing usage of Pursuit Mega Aerodactyl and sdef Forretress, Escavalier, and Bronzong.

Porygon2: B to low B+. Countering Gyarados was the main selling point

Other stuff from last time:

Slowking will remain at B+. At the risk of sounding too vague, I just believe that B+ is the best representation of Slowking in the metagame. People keep bringing up that it answers Alakazam, but you need a significant amount of SDef to reliably switch in as even Sash Shadow Ball has a decent chance to 2HKO 252/0 Slowking (forget about switching into LO Shadow Ball), and this means you're a low more shaky against physical attackers like Entei, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Swampert. Also, it doesn't wall a "huge" portion of the metagame as I've seen some posts claim, people should be less generous with their wording in general.

Darmanitan: stays at B-

Shaymin: this moved down to B+ recently for a reason. Hogg's post sums it up well. In addition to what he said, I'd even say that Roserade is the better offensive Grass-type right now, as the additional utility in Sleep Powder and Spikes (and, to an extent, unpredictability) let it threaten a lot more targets and put in a lot more work in general. And as always, Whimsicott offers a lot more utility wise and is much, much easier to put on most teams.

Spiritomb: Yeah this is way too niche to go any higher than it is now, it's not particularly bulky, doesn't do anything at all if the very few attackers it checks aren't on the opposing side, and doesn't fit easily on any teams really.

Nominations:

Blissey: B- to B. Inclined to agree with this one considering the percentage of sp. attackers it completely shuts down. Let's see a little more discussion though.

Uxie: Unranked to something.

Very tentative for now, but what do people think of Florges still being in A+? Is it as influential as the rest of A+, or should we think about moving it down?

on the topic of situational fat psychic-types still, you could also consider adding Musharna to C- because it does cm pass quite nicely. it's an hybrid between cress and espyjump (trades the latter's speed for a lot more bulk, which is usually better if you plan on cm passing anyway) and while i haven't used it myself despite wanting to for a while now, i've seen that users: dmt and ivotefortrumplol have some experience with it

I'd love to see some replays?

 

[DiscoDucky]

I think Blissey should stay at B-, though frankly speaking I'm probably not the best person to represent this viewpoint. I know that Alakazam has been a growing force within the UnderUsed metagame, and even if Blissey is a stop to most Special Attackers, Alakazam still trounces it.

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 317-374 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 270-320 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


I understand that one Pokemon does not constitute a complete subrank shift, but Alakazam's utility movepool and access to Magic Guard can significantly mess up Blisseys that switch into it.

Just my two cents.

 

[bsu]

blissey's access to twave and stealth rocks, along with its standard fat wall moveset should honestly make it B imo
i believe it also gets healing wish lol so you can actually run blissey + mandibuzz (or whatever the popular fat core is these days) HO (mostly a joke but blissey isn't strictly limited to full stall/balance)
the idea that blissey loses to setup is also a little wonky, bc with toxic, twave, and sToss in your arsenal only mons immune to the status of choice, lum, or 101 subs can really safely setup.

 

[kokoloko]

it's not boosting setup that bliss folds to, it's hazards. you can bring in pretty much any spikes mon and just start stacking on it cause it does nothing back.

and it's not the actual setup that's the threat, it's the free turns it gives to a number of really dangerous Pokemon. say I bring in my "spikes" roserade on it for absolutely free and decide to just slam the incoming spinner/defoger instead with a strong as fuck leaf storm.

its also the fact that, for a special wall, it loses to a ton of special attackers, especially now that np focus blast infernape and alakazam are things.

it's obviously never going to be straight up terrible, but it's just way too easy to take advantage of to ever be "good", especially in offensive builds.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Unranked ---> C-

Since the guy who nominated this didn't talk anything about its other perks I felt like I should elaborate on them. First of all it has Calm Mind and Baton Pass which is basically a slower but much more reliable BP + CM Espeon. This thing has reliable recovery through of Moonlight and Heal Bell and the ability Synchronize to discourage Pokemon without status removal like Cresselia to not use Toxic in fear of getting Toxicated itself. Yawn and Thunder Wave for spreading status is really nice is kind of unfair since you can't status Musharna yourself without getting punished (unless your a Fire-type with Sacred Fire or Will-o-Wisp.) This thing also has a ca$h curse pass set when combined with something physical and good special defense can be sweet.

C- ---> C
Actually using this thing recently I find it hard for it to not be doing anything. Its bulk is only average but this things utility and power are really neat. You can use defensive with Stealth Rock and Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin, Roseli Berry + Sheer Force + Gunk Shot to lure fairies. Life Orb + Sheer Force is neat. Plus being a Dragon-type give it unique set of resistances against Fire, Water, Grass, and Electric-types which are super common. To put it bluntly, this things tools, movepoll, ability choice and good combination of useful stats puts it a lot farther from the rest of C- and it is under appreciated. If you still aren't convinced put on a Rocky Helmet and Max Defense and throw this at an entei.

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

Besides having more bulk overall, I can't see any benefit with using Musharna over Espeon as a BPasser. Musharna has an ass defensive typing for a BPasser, so that extra bulk only does it so much good. Espeons bulk isn't much better but it has better speed to make up for that and allows it to get a CM boosts more consistently, while Musharna always has to take a hit before setting up, and could possibly cost you a member or make you lose a lot of momentum. Not to mention that Musharna is way more vulnerable to Taunt than Espeon, who has no problem with it since it has Magic Bounce. Musharna is horribly outclassed in that role, and also outclassed as a bulky Psychic by the likes of Slowking, Reuniclus, and Cresselia, so I don't see any reason to rank it at all.

I don't have much to say about the other noms other than I think Blissey should stay B-. It's a great special wall, but its too passive that it gives your opponent plentiful opportunities to setup on it or get their rocks/spikes up, it's massive taunt bait, and some special attackers can find ways around it easily.

 

[Ramses]

quick thoughts on the noms

Druddigon to C is fine in my eyes, but probably not any higher than that to the obvious issues it has to differentiate itself from the other Dragon-types in the tier. It's got a pretty decent offensive (which is where it shines) and an okay defensive set, but once you realize that defensive Salamence is obviously better than Druddigon's defensive set you'd see why it shouldn't go any further. Even the offensive set isn't that great either with the amount of wallbreakers that reside in the tier, such as Hydreigon, Krookodile, Feraligatr, etc. The only time it should really be considered is if you absolutely can't fit a common Stealth Rock setter on your build and / or you want to lure Fairies.

Not too convinced that Musharna should rise for reasons The Heartless Dictator mentioned above. Simply put it has little to no utility (CM + BP) that Espeon can't bring to a team and faces too much competition from the other bulky Psychic-types in the rankings. Don't mean to bash SlaySlenderDragon XD but I'm pretty sure Magic Bounce discourages you from spamming Toxic or Twave as well and Musharna doesn't have the moveslots to be running anything besides recovery, CM + BP, and most of the time Heal Bell. This leaves a moveslot(s) for Espeon open so it can actually take advantage of the boosts before passing it away as Bounce ensures you can't get statused.

Uxie should probably start off in C. It's definitely better than anything that resides in C- by a long shot and in C it starts to reach things it's on par with. I've used it quite a bit and it's great if you put it on the right team. It really has a lot to separate itself from other Psychic-types (u-turn, memento, sr, knoff) and it's quite bulky to take on the likes of mega aero, mscept, zam, and can cripple the former and latter with Twave which is useful when considering the role compression it already offers.

 

[Shiba]

Noms:

(to C/C+): yeah Uxie should've already been on the Viability Rankings to be honest. With pretty fantastic defensive typing being pure Psychic + the bulk that goes along with it AND access to a huge support movepool (those being Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Dual Screens, a slow U-turn, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Memento and weather setting moves), it could easily fill quite a few key team roles on a lot of team archetypes. As -Magic- already said it can take on quite a few of the tiers biggest threats and cripple them with T-Wave, which is always nice.

(stay at A+): I don't really think it should be questioned whether or not Florges should move down. Florges is probably one of the most splashable bulky Pokemon in the tier with its pure Fairy typing and fantastic natural bulk, being able to take on the likes of popular offensive types like Fighting-, Dragon-, and Dark-types. I would also say that it can almost be considered a staple for a wide majority of balance and bulky offense teams with its Cleric and Calm Mind sets, respectively.

Haven't really seen Musharna anywhere but I'll try to play around with it a bit. CM + really slow BP, which is extremely important btw in Baton Pass teams.. see: Celepass with min Speed 0 IV Celebi, you never want your passee to take a hit off the Baton Pass, which happens often if you use Espeon because of its already high natural Speed stat (I think it still hits the 200s with min speed). But anyway, it sounds like a cool way to give pretty frail Pokemon like Alakazam, Yanmega, or Mega Sceptile a chance to become sweepers instead of revenge killers/cleaners.

 

[Cactrune]

I'd like to nominate Virizion to B- rank. It has caught the attention of many players for being very well-equipped to deal with a fair amount of the tier's Water-types. Yes, Toxicroak can do this pretty well too, but Virizion is faster and (arguably) has better coverage moves against some of its most common checks, namely Stone Edge. I'm not saying that Virizion is better than Toxicroak, but it has its own niche. On top of that, its great special bulk allows it to soft-check a lot of Electric-types as well, and its defensive sets (popularized by DaSpoofy) have proven to be fairly successful as stallbreakers. I think that it's definitely a cut above Pokemon like Magneton and Goodra, and that it deserves a modest bump in ranking.

 

[LeoLancaster]

Adding on to the above, Virizion distinguishes itself from the other Fighting types that deal with bulky Water types (Toxicroak and Heracross) by being significantly less vulnerable to the wallbreakers that reside in the base 86+ speed tiers, such as Specs Rotom-C/H, Salamence, Hydreigon, Lucario, Shaymin, and others, thanks to its Speed tier and coverage. In fact, Virizion can check a lot of these, switching in fairly easily against Krookodile and NP Lucario, switching once into LO Hydreigon (although it will cost a lot of health), and revenging the others when weakened. Toxicroak and Heracross have a much harder time doing this, as both are outsped and the only priority between the two of them is Toxicroak's Sucker Punch, which is significantly less powerful versus these targets than Virizion's options. (NP Croak does have access to Vacuum Wave, which helps vs Krook and Hydra, but is even weaker vs Mence and Zapdos).

tl;dr Virizion matches up way better than its main competition versus common wallbreakers, which is valuable enough for it to rise to B-

 

[Morsel]

I believe that Porygon-Z should move from B to A-.

It has a great ability to setup very quickly with Agility+Nasty Plot. As well, its abilities in Download and Adaptability make it so that it either gets a free +1 special attack or has 2X STAB, which can be used on a number of useful moves such as Tri Attack and Hyper Beam. It can also run effective choice sets. A choice specs+adaptability allows it to break past Florges (252 modest Tri Attack=2-hit-ko), as well as 2HKO most of the metagame. Therefore, a choice specs Porygon-Z is extremely threatening to defensive/stall teams (once Blissey is gone). While a choice scarfed set lacks the power of the aforementioned sets, it makes for a great revenge killer on faster threats such as Krokodile, Salamence, Azelf and adamant mega Aerodactyl (jolly speed tiers with Porygon-Z). Even against defensive teams, a modest Tri Attack from a scarfed Porygon still hits hard.

Tri Attack is Porygon's bread and butter; however, it also has a wide-range of coverage options, including Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse. This makes it so that there is no safe check, as Porygon likely has the tools to deal with predicted switch ins. Porygon also has access to trick, meaning that it can cripple Blissey, Florges and other walls. Finally, while gimmicky, Hyper Beam can cleanly OHKO most of the metagame; in fact, it can 2HKO Blissey. However, this move should only be used in two situations: Porygon is about to go down and is facing a full HP Pokemon, and if Porygon is the last member of the team alive. In conclusion, Porygon-Z is an extremely potent offensive threat that is often overlooked, which is why I feel that it deserves the A- rank it deserves.

 

[dodmen]

Yeah I really like that Virizion nomination, I'm gonna bump it up to B-. Cobalion works better on offense most of the time, but Virizion is definitely better than the stuff in C+.

Uxie's being ranked at C as well, and Mandibuzz is rising from B- to B. No other changes, which is a pretty good thing showing that the metagame has pretty much stabilized after all the changes we've had so far.

My only nomination this time is Suicune to S rank. I would love to see a lot of discussion on this. CM Suicune is easily /the/ best bulky setup sweeper in the tier and it's a Pokemon that's ridiculously easy to put on any kind of team. It's a huge threat against basically any team without a water immunity, and it even puts heavy pressure on stall teams via Pressure and Scald burns. CM Sleep Talk Suicune might also be one of the most annoying Pokemon for offensive teams lacking those Water immunities because these teams can't just force a rest and then switch in their strong physical attacker freely. It's definitely up there with the rest of S rank in terms of how influential it is.

Read the last few pages for Porygon-Z stuff.

 

[FFXIII-Lightning]

The fact that cune isn't already S rank has always seemed pretty strange to me

 

[Highways]

I really think that Suicune can be a S Rank
It can break momentum very well and the RoarCune Set can destroy Bulky Offense, but the CMTalk Set can be very annoyung to Hper Offense and Stall Teams that doesn't have a Special Wall, a Phrazer or a setup sweeper.

 

[dodmen]

I actually forgot about two nominations that came up when we were looking at old analyses:

Jolteon: Unranked to C-. Mostly outclassed by other electrics, but its speed tier is what gives it an advantage - outspeeding Alakazam is especially nice.

Exploud: Unranked to C: with Sableye being a decent deterrent to PZ, Exploud regained its small niche of Scrappy Boomburst.

 

[Take Azelfie]

B+ ---> A-
I really like Gardevoir in this meta because it can play a multitude of important roles such as a revenge killer, wallbreaker and a CM user. This splashability is really nice as well as holding a special niche that a lot of other Pokemon don't have access to which is the ability to use both Memento and Healing Wish which can really crucial late game. Healing Wish is actually stupid when used with stuff like Entei and Mega Swampert and Memento allows frailer set up sweepers. Not to mention its typing is absolutely fabulous offensively.

 

[Ramses]

Gardevoir to A- is a bit iffy. As SlaySlenderDragon XD it has a nice degree of versatility and splashability with it's great typing and movepool. Calm Mind is the best set in my honest opinion since it can absolutely demolish Stall itself after a boost, Choice Specs hit obscenely hard and wallbreaks efficiently with it's expansive movepool, Choice Scarf offers nice speed control and team support through Memento and Healing Wish which are godsends for offensive teams. The only downside I see from it is Alakazam returning since they function pretty similarly except Alakazam has the obvious speed + power + movepool advantage and their physical bulk only differentiates by a thin margin. The only thing the it really has over it is it's Fairy-typing which is wonderful with the prevalence of powerful Dragons in the tier. So I'm not totally sure if it's ready for a move.

Jolteon to C- (or D) is probably fine, but it's going to have a hard time to separate itself from other Electric-types, namely Zapdos (and the others like Lisk and Rtm-C to a lesser extent) who offers a huge degree of versatility and offers more to the plate than what Jolteon can offer aside from outrun Alakazam, but is it really worth using a subpar electric-type just for that?

Suicune to S is iffy as well. It has quite a bit of versatility since it can run different sets for a large quantity of team which gives it a huge degree of splashability ; not to mention it has an excellent typing in tandem with extremely solid bulk which lets it check a ton of dangerous threats in the metagame. The only downfall I can see of it is it's susceptibility to Taunt / Encore + other methods of phasing and it's reliance on Scald.

I haven't really used Exploud very much except for the early ORAS days. I honestly didn't find it very good since 99% of the time you'd be better off with Porygon-Z since they actually hit for really similar damage with Specs Boomburst and Specs Tri Attack (although dd pZ is probably the best set). As stated before the only reason you'd use it is if you're weak to Sableye, but even then you're making yourself liable to slower attackers that Porygon-Z could have forced out instead of vice versa.

 

[spuds4ever]

Agree with suicune to S. It is without a doubt the king of bulky waters, winning scald wars thanks to being able to run rest more effectively than any other water and is virtually the only one that can't be worn down by entei. To be honest, looking through the ranks, nothing bar snorlax (and maybe cresselia) boasts as much defensive utility while still being able to threaten a sweep late-game. Suicune also has much less notable weaknesses than aforementioned lax and cress, most notably in its lack of common type weaknesses and having no type immune to its STAB. Tbh, when a-ranked mons like mega-scept which have super-effective 130 BP STABs and resist its whole set are considered poor checks, it's clear that cune is a cut above other mons. Nothing else in A+ can match its combination of bulk, mid game utility (scald is some serious (BAN ME PLEASE)ry as I'm sure we've all experienced), versatility, sweeping ability (crocune requires more preparation than SD coba or gyara or CM florges in my experience) and staying power though tbh, none of the S-mons match it in this regard either.

Agree with gardevoir to A-: Beats zam without shadow ball, scarf is strong given how spammable moonblast (particularly given the threat of its secondary STAB) is not to mention all the good scarf utility moves it has in h-wish, memento and trick. Scarf is possibly the best offensive check to hydrei atm. CM also completely dismantles stall for the record if you remove mega-gron. Quad fighting resist and no sucker weakness is also nice.

Nidoqueen needs to move down to no higher than B+. Nidoqueen is really not very effective in this metagame and pretty much every tier-drop since gatr except zapdos takes a big dump on it not mention the insane popularity of shuca berry on cobalion, empoleon and metagross. Tbh, even know how its gained a reputation for being a solid fighting or mega-aero check (see calcs below). Unlike nidoking, it doesn't make it into the somewhat prestigious 85+ speed tier, meaning it's easily forced out by common mons like gyarados or mamoswine. Even as a rocks-setter it is unreliable, mostly due to the fact that it loses 1 on 1 vs nearly all the good rocks setters in the tier, krook, mamoswine, swampert, even shuca cobalion 3hkoes with iron head not to mention the fact that mandibuzz easily defogs on it and mega-toise spins on it. Also, here are calcs hopefully showing how it fails as a bulky mon.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 294-348 (80.3 - 95%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 176-207 (48 - 56.5%) guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 181-213 (49.4 - 58.1%) guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 339-400 (92.6 - 109.2%) 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Umbreon up to A-: Umbreon is really good in the meta atm given the craze about DDers atm and how foul play makes light work of both mence and gyara. It's pretty much like Porygon 2 in that it beats any non-fighter physical sweeper but it has actual utility against defensive teams in wish passing and cleric roles and doesn't get destroyed by knock off. On top of this, synchronise with great bulk actually makes it a great scald deterrent and it has very few good offensive switch-ins. I have found that it is incredibly difficult to break through without a special boosting sweeper or strong fighting or fairy moves, even beedril isn't doing more than 70% to max bold sets.

 

[kokoloko]

do i really have to post about how nidoqueen is better than king in almost every single situation AGAIN

 

[Freeroamer]

Agree with suicune to S. It is without a doubt the king of bulky waters, winning scald wars thanks to being able to run rest more effectively than any other water and is virtually the only one that can't be worn down by entei. To be honest, looking through the ranks, nothing bar snorlax (and maybe cresselia) boasts as much defensive utility while still being able to threaten a sweep late-game. Suicune also has much less notable weaknesses than aforementioned lax and cress, most notably in its lack of common type weaknesses and having no type immune to its STAB. Tbh, when a-ranked mons like mega-scept which have super-effective 130 BP STABs and resist its whole set are considered poor checks, it's clear that cune is a cut above other mons. Nothing else in A+ can match its combination of bulk, mid game utility (scald is some serious (BAN ME PLEASE)ry as I'm sure we've all experienced), versatility, sweeping ability (crocune requires more preparation than SD coba or gyara or CM florges in my experience) and staying power though tbh, none of the S-mons match it in this regard either.

Agree with gardevoir to A-: Beats zam without shadow ball, scarf is strong given how spammable moonblast (particularly given the threat of its secondary STAB) is not to mention all the good scarf utility moves it has in h-wish, memento and trick. Scarf is possibly the best offensive check to hydrei atm. CM also completely dismantles stall for the record if you remove mega-gron. Quad fighting resist and no sucker weakness is also nice.

Nidoqueen needs to move down to no higher than B+. Nidoqueen is really not very effective in this metagame and pretty much every tier-drop since gatr except zapdos takes a big dump on it not mention the insane popularity of shuca berry on cobalion, empoleon and metagross. Tbh, even know how its gained a reputation for being a solid fighting or mega-aero check (see calcs below). Unlike nidoking, it doesn't make it into the somewhat prestigious 85+ speed tier, meaning it's easily forced out by common mons like gyarados or mamoswine. Even as a rocks-setter it is unreliable, mostly due to the fact that it loses 1 on 1 vs nearly all the good rocks setters in the tier, krook, mamoswine, swampert, even shuca cobalion 3hkoes with iron head not to mention the fact that mandibuzz easily defogs on it and mega-toise spins on it. Also, here are calcs hopefully showing how it fails as a bulky mon.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 294-348 (80.3 - 95%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 176-207 (48 - 56.5%) guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 181-213 (49.4 - 58.1%) guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 339-400 (92.6 - 109.2%) 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Umbreon up to A-: Umbreon is really good in the meta atm given the craze about DDers atm and how foul play makes light work of both mence and gyara. It's pretty much like Porygon 2 in that it beats any non-fighter physical sweeper but it has actual utility against defensive teams in wish passing and cleric roles and doesn't get destroyed by knock off. On top of this, synchronise with great bulk actually makes it a great scald deterrent and it has very few good offensive switch-ins. I have found that it is incredibly difficult to break through without a special boosting sweeper or strong fighting or fairy moves, even beedril isn't doing more than 70% to max bold sets.

All your calcs apart from the aero one are wrong or irrelevant in some way lol, CB Hera is better off Jolly, Life Orb Reckless Mienshao is v v rare(better calc would be scarf) and you'd be hard pressed to find many mons taking unresisted +1 Outrages from Mence, and also being able to deal with it. Nido isn't a Mence check and never will be. I don't actually think the main point of Nidoqueen getting worse in general is a bad one, but like koko said it has to remain above King cos the bulk diff is p noticeable vs relevant threats and some of the reasoning was really spotty.

 

[spuds4ever]

My bad about the heracross calc, not advocating adamant cross that was just something I missed, for the record, jolly CB only has 10% chance to 2hko after rocks. I think mence is relevant because +1 outrage is an important benchmark that at least I expect a lot of reactionary mons to be able to handle like aforementioned krook or pert, but it also illustrates that there are more staple mons out there that nidoqueen can't handle. I wasn't really trying to make a big comparison between nidoking and queen as they are very different in how they are played ime. Nidoking is a wallbreaker and queen is a rocks' setter and I don't think either should be trying to fill the shoes of the other generally as it will be inferior. The point was more that nidoking is less threatened by metagame developments than queen and so it's more reasonable that they should merely occupy the same rank.