Usage =/= viability. Ambipom is RU by usage but is utter garbage in that tier, as is Cincinno and Typhlosion. There is a long history throughout Smogon of Pokemon being in certain tiers by usage but being utter garbage in those tiers. You can use usage to point to metagame trends, but we do not consider a Pokemon's ranking solely based on the usage it gets on the ladder.
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ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4
- Thread starter dodmen
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Usage =/= viability. Ambipom is RU by usage but is utter garbage in that tier, as is Cincinno and Typhlosion. There is a long history throughout Smogon of Pokemon being in certain tiers by usage but being utter garbage in those tiers. You can use usage to point to metagame trends, but we do not consider a Pokemon's ranking solely based on the usage it gets on the ladder.
Case in point: Deoxys-D was banned in either BW or XY from OU when it was UU in usage.
EDIT: Oh. I remember it being UU. Maybe it spiked briefly to OU usage before its ban? You're right, though, unimportant.
EDIT: Oh. I remember it being UU. Maybe it spiked briefly to OU usage before its ban? You're right, though, unimportant.
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In both of those instances Deo-D was OU by usage. Not that it matters though, the point still stands.
One thing in defense of aromatisse, with the metagame polarizing to stall/HO TR has a very strong anti meta niche and aromatisse is a tauntproof fairy TR setter. It's probably still a C+ mon just establishing that it has a niche.
Also Deo-D has generally been UU by usage untill Deo-S gets banned then it goes OU, then it gets banned. #spikeleadsarebad
Also Deo-D has generally been UU by usage untill Deo-S gets banned then it goes OU, then it gets banned. #spikeleadsarebad
Re: Dragalge
Disagree with it dropping. It may seem like an unfavorable pick in a meta dominated by faster Pigs, Dragons, and Pterodactyls but one thing they all have in common is none of them switch into Dragalge at all. Dingbat mentioned how amazing it's offensive presence which is pretty much 100% of its niche right now. Worst case scenario Drag is revenge killed by any of the aforementioned moms which is a trade to your benefit (getting to switch last means less chance to lose momentum), but if you also get T-Spikes up Drag did its job.
The fact that it's rarely used is a huge benefit to it as well, since nobody looks at their team and thinks "oh shit I get 6-0d by Dragalge" and slaps on an Empoleon or Bronzong. Literally nobody builds with it in mind so the majority of the time if you get a free turn with it something is getting sent to the 24th dimension by an Adaptability boosted Dragon infused rock of death. Cobalion spam is a godsend to Drag since this is often the Steel of choice for a team, and I don't need to provide calcs for people to believe me when I say Cobalion is not a switch in (or even a check). Metagross has seen a solid rise but even that takes over half from Draco.
Getting a free turn isn't hard either with its nice bulk and great resists. One thing it's got over both Rose and Tenta is a Fire and Electric resist in one slot, so it can soft check all of the tier's Electrics which are always a pain for offensive teams to face with Volt Switch spam. Pair it with a Ground and your opponent risks either giving something like Mamo/MegaPert a free turn or Dragalge, both of which are highly unfavorable prospects (speaking of which Mega Pert is one of the best partners for it).
Disagree with it dropping. It may seem like an unfavorable pick in a meta dominated by faster Pigs, Dragons, and Pterodactyls but one thing they all have in common is none of them switch into Dragalge at all. Dingbat mentioned how amazing it's offensive presence which is pretty much 100% of its niche right now. Worst case scenario Drag is revenge killed by any of the aforementioned moms which is a trade to your benefit (getting to switch last means less chance to lose momentum), but if you also get T-Spikes up Drag did its job.
The fact that it's rarely used is a huge benefit to it as well, since nobody looks at their team and thinks "oh shit I get 6-0d by Dragalge" and slaps on an Empoleon or Bronzong. Literally nobody builds with it in mind so the majority of the time if you get a free turn with it something is getting sent to the 24th dimension by an Adaptability boosted Dragon infused rock of death. Cobalion spam is a godsend to Drag since this is often the Steel of choice for a team, and I don't need to provide calcs for people to believe me when I say Cobalion is not a switch in (or even a check). Metagross has seen a solid rise but even that takes over half from Draco.
Getting a free turn isn't hard either with its nice bulk and great resists. One thing it's got over both Rose and Tenta is a Fire and Electric resist in one slot, so it can soft check all of the tier's Electrics which are always a pain for offensive teams to face with Volt Switch spam. Pair it with a Ground and your opponent risks either giving something like Mamo/MegaPert a free turn or Dragalge, both of which are highly unfavorable prospects (speaking of which Mega Pert is one of the best partners for it).
B--> B+
I feel like this thing is being underrated and B rank is underselling it. It can take on a huge portion of the meta with ease. It beats everything in S other than Suicune and is one of the few things that can repeatedly come into stuff like banded Arcanine and is a hard stop to Gyarados. It also has the advantage of having a fairly flexible movepool, with stuff like Signal Beam preventing it from being setup fodder for Celebii. Overall I feel like a mon like this that alleviates so many team building constraints and is flexible enough to adapt to new metagame changes should be higher ranked.
the only problem with Phys Def P2 is that a lot of the time you'll be switching it into knock offs from Krook and co and once p2 loses its etiolate its a lot weaker. i do agree its wide array of coverage moves may help it not be setup fodder, but p2 also low key suffers from 4MSS(recovery and at least one status are pretty much mandatory) and your team may end up having to bring secondary checks to the threats that p2 should cover but cant.
So there are a LOT of noms that have been made in the past couple weeks, and since they're all things that seem susceptible to happening, here are my personal opinions on them (they'll be short due to how many noms I'm mentioning).
Cresselia to A: Agree Any team that's bug, dark, or ghost type attacks are on a pokemon thats already fainted is going to have serious trouble against Cress. It's a great calm mind sweeper and can also effectively support a team with dual screens for setup sweepers and lunar dance for any of its unhealthy teammates. Unpredictable, and able to fit onto many play styles with ease.
Sneasel to C-: On the fence Not too many people have talked about this nom, but Sneasel does possess a niche as a fast pursuit trapper and dangerous sweeper with a free turn. Just don't know HOW effective it is in doing these things since I never see it.
Durant to C-: Agree While its abysmal bulk and the low accuracy provided by hustle hinder it, the short time it's out on the battlefield can be used to plow through unprepared offense teams and even some of the tier's bulkiest mons (as shown by calcs done a few pages ago). This thing can definitely be an asset to teams with unprepared opponents.
Donphan to C/C-: Agree Offensively outclassed by Krookodile, Swampert, and Mamoswine, and outclassed as a spinner AND setter by Forretress, and again as a spinner by Tentacruel. I could go further into detail, but I've already specifically posted about this thing, so just look at that post for my full explanation.
Mega Shark to A-: On the fence It definitely can be deadly late game, but its bulk, priority moves in espeed and mach punch, and new and prevalent checks in Conk and Sylv keep it from being as effective as it once was. Still great, however.
Florges to A- or B+: Agree Sylveon outclasses this thing both offensively and as a team cleric, and this shouldn't be new info at this point. It has synthesis and calm mind to differentiate itself a bit, but is reliant on quite a few CM boosts to do much damage.
Dragalge to B-: Disagree Still a very reliable switch in to fighting type moves, scald, and fire type moves and as many others have said, the only dragon capable of reliably KOing fairies on the switch. Still on par with many B mons.
Aromatisse to C+ or C: Agree Another pokemon that is hopelessly outclassed in its respective roles by Sylveon, but even more than Florges, sure its immune to taunt, but what can it do offensively alongside supporting its team? Nothing that Sylv and Florges can't do better.
Porygon2 to B+: Disagree Bsu gave a pretty good explanation as to why B rank is justified, so ya.
Mega Houndoom to B: Disagree The meta game isn't totally favorable to this thing in some ways, but in others, such as the prevalence of threats that it can check VERY well and/or set up on, it is. Definitely not worth the drop considering the popularity of Celebi and its impressive sweeping capabilities.
Toxicroak to A: Disagree Without setting up, it isn't able to sweep, and even when it has an NP or SD under its belt, it's average speed and not so good bulk leaves it susceptible to being revenge killed with ease by things like Krookodile and Infernape. It's a very good pokemon, but not on par with those in A.
Welp, that took a LONG time, but I hope that what i said picks up some more discussion on the pokes that everyone hasn't given much attention to.
Cresselia to A: Agree Any team that's bug, dark, or ghost type attacks are on a pokemon thats already fainted is going to have serious trouble against Cress. It's a great calm mind sweeper and can also effectively support a team with dual screens for setup sweepers and lunar dance for any of its unhealthy teammates. Unpredictable, and able to fit onto many play styles with ease.
Sneasel to C-: On the fence Not too many people have talked about this nom, but Sneasel does possess a niche as a fast pursuit trapper and dangerous sweeper with a free turn. Just don't know HOW effective it is in doing these things since I never see it.
Durant to C-: Agree While its abysmal bulk and the low accuracy provided by hustle hinder it, the short time it's out on the battlefield can be used to plow through unprepared offense teams and even some of the tier's bulkiest mons (as shown by calcs done a few pages ago). This thing can definitely be an asset to teams with unprepared opponents.
Donphan to C/C-: Agree Offensively outclassed by Krookodile, Swampert, and Mamoswine, and outclassed as a spinner AND setter by Forretress, and again as a spinner by Tentacruel. I could go further into detail, but I've already specifically posted about this thing, so just look at that post for my full explanation.
Mega Shark to A-: On the fence It definitely can be deadly late game, but its bulk, priority moves in espeed and mach punch, and new and prevalent checks in Conk and Sylv keep it from being as effective as it once was. Still great, however.
Florges to A- or B+: Agree Sylveon outclasses this thing both offensively and as a team cleric, and this shouldn't be new info at this point. It has synthesis and calm mind to differentiate itself a bit, but is reliant on quite a few CM boosts to do much damage.
Dragalge to B-: Disagree Still a very reliable switch in to fighting type moves, scald, and fire type moves and as many others have said, the only dragon capable of reliably KOing fairies on the switch. Still on par with many B mons.
Aromatisse to C+ or C: Agree Another pokemon that is hopelessly outclassed in its respective roles by Sylveon, but even more than Florges, sure its immune to taunt, but what can it do offensively alongside supporting its team? Nothing that Sylv and Florges can't do better.
Porygon2 to B+: Disagree Bsu gave a pretty good explanation as to why B rank is justified, so ya.
Mega Houndoom to B: Disagree The meta game isn't totally favorable to this thing in some ways, but in others, such as the prevalence of threats that it can check VERY well and/or set up on, it is. Definitely not worth the drop considering the popularity of Celebi and its impressive sweeping capabilities.
Toxicroak to A: Disagree Without setting up, it isn't able to sweep, and even when it has an NP or SD under its belt, it's average speed and not so good bulk leaves it susceptible to being revenge killed with ease by things like Krookodile and Infernape. It's a very good pokemon, but not on par with those in A.
Welp, that took a LONG time, but I hope that what i said picks up some more discussion on the pokes that everyone hasn't given much attention to.
Hello, guys! Time for me to make a nomination.
From B to B+: AGREE
When I build most of my teams, Bronzong immediately sprang to mind as a Pokemon that could fill the gaps of the team's weaknesses and resistances. Based on my experience, I found out that Bronzong became a staple to most teams; I use this even on offensive-oriented teams. I found out that Bronzong became a staple because of how it offers a multitude of resistances no other Pokemon can possess (especially with Sylveon and Celebi running rampant in the tier today).
When I build most of my teams, Bronzong immediately sprang to mind as a Pokemon that could fill the gaps of the team's weaknesses and resistances. Based on my experience, I found out that Bronzong became a staple to most teams; I use this even on offensive-oriented teams. I found out that Bronzong became a staple because of how it offers a multitude of resistances no other Pokemon can possess (especially with Sylveon and Celebi running rampant in the tier today).
why isn't sylveon actually just in S rank?
defensively, it's a great check to mence and hydreigon (scout for iron tail in both cases ofc) and does a great job pivoting in against a variety of offensive pokemon. it also puts out incomparable damage for a defensive pokemon. make sure you have something for nidoking (lol) and entei and stuff that can switch in pretty well and you're golden. you can even just run bp on the defensive set to pivot out against these few pokemon that can switch in.
offensively, it ohkos almost the entire tier and 2hkos basically everything else. most steels and fires cant switch into specs and the poisons that can take two hyper voices get donked by psyshock. the few pokemon that can switch in are pretty passive which means you often maintain momentum even if they have a good check.
like even if you dont agree w/ it being in S it should definitely be A+
defensively, it's a great check to mence and hydreigon (scout for iron tail in both cases ofc) and does a great job pivoting in against a variety of offensive pokemon. it also puts out incomparable damage for a defensive pokemon. make sure you have something for nidoking (lol) and entei and stuff that can switch in pretty well and you're golden. you can even just run bp on the defensive set to pivot out against these few pokemon that can switch in.
offensively, it ohkos almost the entire tier and 2hkos basically everything else. most steels and fires cant switch into specs and the poisons that can take two hyper voices get donked by psyshock. the few pokemon that can switch in are pretty passive which means you often maintain momentum even if they have a good check.
like even if you dont agree w/ it being in S it should definitely be A+
I don't agree with Sylveon going into A+, let alone A+. A is fine where it is.
Sylveon is (still) quite the one-and-a-half trick pony. Any team capable of prepping for the specs set is fully capable of handling the cleric set; the difference in power and lack of coverage is staggering. As a cleric actually, having used it and played against it, I've found Sylveon exceptionally underwhelming. It does the same thing Umbreon does (which thanks to much better bulk and slightly higher Speed, does the cleric thing better imo). The only trade-off is Hyper Voice and Fairy STAB on it's own isn't a lot to write home about. Without Choice Specs, it's nowhere near as terrifying. Things like Nidoqueen or Tentacruel are now conditionally viable switch-ins, since you're either unable to 1v1 them or you drop Protect and lose thanks to Wish's one turn delay. Baton Pass has a similar effect here, and unless you BP without passing a Wish (ala pivot), then the same thing happens.
On a side note, running BP keeps Sylveon from fitting on WP Celebi teams (which has to go S-rank if Salamence gets nerfed imho, just for the influence these teams will have). Not an issue at all, but something I found curious. Baton Pass clause is silly.
So if the cleric set is okay, but still underwhelming, then your nomination rides on the Choice Specs set. The boosted Hyper Voice is a monster sure, but now you have no defensive utility outside of keeping Hydreigon from spamming. And many of the things that you 2HKO can still switch-in and threaten Sylveon. You need opposing Entei, Steel-types, and/or Poison-types removed before Sylveon reaches its potential. If you nab a Poison-type with Psyshock, you're now a free turn for a ton of threats in the metagame. The same goes for Shadow Ball and HP Fire. Without the max bulk and any recovery, chip damage becomes enemy number one for Sylveon, since threats you'd normally be fine against, namely Sharpedo (as it mevo's) can pick you off once you're at ~70%.
I see a lot of "Crawdaunt syndrome" in regards to Sylveon - it's situationally hard to switch in on and it's got a hell of a nuke at its disposal, but it's still fairly easy to play around if you're semi-competent. Sylveon is dirt slow, and unless it's riding Specs, has a limited offensive presence. And if you do run Choice Specs, its defensive presence withers. In a vacuum Sylveon is really good, but in practice it's simply good. A is the perfect rank for it, and as the hype train (slowly) dies down, that should become more apparent.
Sylveon is (still) quite the one-and-a-half trick pony. Any team capable of prepping for the specs set is fully capable of handling the cleric set; the difference in power and lack of coverage is staggering. As a cleric actually, having used it and played against it, I've found Sylveon exceptionally underwhelming. It does the same thing Umbreon does (which thanks to much better bulk and slightly higher Speed, does the cleric thing better imo). The only trade-off is Hyper Voice and Fairy STAB on it's own isn't a lot to write home about. Without Choice Specs, it's nowhere near as terrifying. Things like Nidoqueen or Tentacruel are now conditionally viable switch-ins, since you're either unable to 1v1 them or you drop Protect and lose thanks to Wish's one turn delay. Baton Pass has a similar effect here, and unless you BP without passing a Wish (ala pivot), then the same thing happens.
On a side note, running BP keeps Sylveon from fitting on WP Celebi teams (which has to go S-rank if Salamence gets nerfed imho, just for the influence these teams will have). Not an issue at all, but something I found curious. Baton Pass clause is silly.
So if the cleric set is okay, but still underwhelming, then your nomination rides on the Choice Specs set. The boosted Hyper Voice is a monster sure, but now you have no defensive utility outside of keeping Hydreigon from spamming. And many of the things that you 2HKO can still switch-in and threaten Sylveon. You need opposing Entei, Steel-types, and/or Poison-types removed before Sylveon reaches its potential. If you nab a Poison-type with Psyshock, you're now a free turn for a ton of threats in the metagame. The same goes for Shadow Ball and HP Fire. Without the max bulk and any recovery, chip damage becomes enemy number one for Sylveon, since threats you'd normally be fine against, namely Sharpedo (as it mevo's) can pick you off once you're at ~70%.
I see a lot of "Crawdaunt syndrome" in regards to Sylveon - it's situationally hard to switch in on and it's got a hell of a nuke at its disposal, but it's still fairly easy to play around if you're semi-competent. Sylveon is dirt slow, and unless it's riding Specs, has a limited offensive presence. And if you do run Choice Specs, its defensive presence withers. In a vacuum Sylveon is really good, but in practice it's simply good. A is the perfect rank for it, and as the hype train (slowly) dies down, that should become more apparent.
I'm gonna be the guy to tackle your argument here...I still feel like Sylveon is fine where it's at in A+, and I'm not even going to drop any "CM Rest Snore Sylveon" endorsements...yet. While you feel Umbreon is a better cleric, it's not really a fair comparison in scope of how both perform in the meta right now. The metagame right now is a lot less hard on cleric Sylveon than Umbreon...Cobalion and opposing Sylveon are some incredibly relevant threats right now that just prey on Umbreon, exploiting free turns off it every time it comes in, which pretty much mirrors your argument about Nidoqueen and Tentacruel being threats to Sylveon, except both the threats I mentioned are arguably a lot more common right now...And that Sylveon has nothing to lose by clicking Hyper Voice as they come in before swapping out...Umbreon wouldn't even risk clicking Foul Play as long as the opposing team's Cobalion is still healthy. Also, while Hyper Voice from a defensive Sylveon isn't much to write home about, it's enough to keep most of the offensive Pokemon Sylveon comfortably switches into from staying in, at the pain of (usually) getting KOed...so Sylveon is still accomplishing its role as a defensive Pokemon.
Your argument about giving free turns by using coverage moves on the Specs set is also kinda moot in m opinion because 90% of the time you're clicking Hyper Voice, period. The only times you're ever clicking Psyshock/Shadow Ball/HP Fire are when you need to make a serious prediction to eliminate a key threat for your team, and if you manage to successfully predict and remove said threat, then being locked into an ineffective move was well worth the effort because you've opened up the lane for something else on your team to sweep later on.
While opposing Steel/Poison-types (and Entei) absolutely capitalize on Sylveon, they all have one huge flaw in common, one that I feel is what enables Sylveon to stay A+ in the first place...that flaw being none of them (except Crobat) have decent recovery. They get chipped every time they come in on Sylv, just for it to switch out afterwards...And it's not like it isn't hard to switch a Suicune into at least half of these Pokemon. If you have a fast, hard-hitting offensive team then yeah your "Crawdaunt syndrome" applies here (even though being a threat that keeps Hydreigon in check is pretty big for offense (read: Lucario)). But slower teams absolutely hate this if they aren't packing something like a Blissey or even a Snorlax, because keeping just a Steel-type as your primary Sylveon answer is almost a guarantee that said Steel-type is going to be worn down for something like Beedrill or whatever to do cleanup later.
Having "limited offensive presence" in the form of clicking the same move 9/10 times to some decent success is actually a testimony, in my opinion, to how mindlessly easy it is to slap Sylveon on a team, slap some fancy rose-tinted shades on it, and blow holes in things. That's pretty much why I think Sylveon deserves to stay where it's at...in A+
Just for the record r0ady has already started the new VR thread so we should move the discussion there until this thread is locked
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