Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

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Agent Gibbs said:
Since I haven't played the game for quite some time, I'm just wondering what everyone's opinions are on the current overall state of the OU metagame. One of the things that stood out to me earlier this year was a couple pages back where PK Gaming said that the metagame is legitimately fun now. Do most people find that to be the case? I haven't seen many complaints about any one particular Pokemon lately (although I may be looking in the wrong place), so am I correct in assuming that the metagame is pretty balanced right now? Does the current metagame allow for a lot of freedom and creativity in teambuilding? You know, stuff like that.
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I think PK Gamings stance is still spot on. Most of the cases of complaints are isolated, like say a group of people still complaining about M-Sableye, or more personal from what I've seen and have spoken to with numerous people. The main playstyles are all viable, obviously more or less in some instances, and there's definitely a lot of creativity in teambuilding where it can also be effective.

Obviously people are going to have their own gripe about things but most of the response has been PK Gaming's point of view, which I believe so as well.

Edit: Actually Meloettas post in the SPL discussion thread (yes I know it's dead) is a good display of creativity you can see that also works.
 
haven't posted in this thread in a while so ill post my observations. Dark spam, electric spam and sableye teams are all seemingly on the decline while ground types, fairy spam, twave and clefable remain ever present threats despite the meta changing to deal with them.

Not sure why dark spam is dropping since so little switchs in but ground stacking and an increase in calm mind users have spelled a death knell to electric spam. Sableyes issues are obvious.

That leaves me with a few questions. Why have fairy spam, ground types and T-wave clef continued to have such longevity near the top when other stuff has fallen? Will anything ever be able to supercede them and what new trends could emerge in the last few months of gen6?

I hope someone can answer
 
I think the main reason that darkspam is declining is because of the general increase in fightspam and due to sand's omnipresence. Darkspam teams tend to atruggle with these, and as such a metagame with them veing super common is hostile towards it. Add in the fact that fairyspam continues to be common (something that a number of darkspam builds heavily struggle with) and it becomes even more clear as to why it's dropping off of the radar slightly.
 
The idea of type spam is generally to overload common checks and counters.

I don't really consider Fairy spam much of a thing, since most Fairy types are Megas and Clefable for the most part is not overloading common checks to Gardevoir or Diancie. Azu + Mega Fairy (Diancie mainly) is the only real core unless you are using Flamethrower Clefable I guess. Even in the case of Azu + Diancie I probably wouldn't label it as trying to overwhelm their checks, because you still won't ever beat Mega Venu. But for example Klefki + any Fairy really can't be labeled as a type spam archetype at all, although maybe T-Wave spam with Clefable ._.

Edit: Either way I don't think a lot of people are thinking "let me put 2 fairies together to overload their common checks and counters." When you wanna beat Mega Scizor for Diancie, you can run stuff like HP Fire Latios and it's equally effective as some Fairy type partner. I guess the example of Flamethrower Clefable is interesting since it's less expected now but just my general thought process on the matter.

As for Fight spam... I don't really think that's a thing at all. Fighting types can never really hope to overcome bulky psychics for the most part so there's no archetype in trying to overload. Not that teams with Keldeo + Lopunny don't exist but this really shouldn't fall under a spam category like Mega Pinsir + Talonflame, since they don't share the overload objective.

I think people are just using teams that don't rely on Keldeo as their only Dark check, plus the realization that Weavile isn't as good as it was. Hoopa is less of a thing in terms of Dark spam just because it doesn't lure Keldeo all that well lol, and Ttar/Sableye tend to be the only Darks on their team.
 
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I've noticed Banded Talonflame appears to be making a comeback. What's prompted that? Also, are any of said Banded Talons running Steel Wing anymore?
 
jordanthejq12 said:
I've noticed Banded Talonflame appears to be making a comeback. What's prompted that? Also, are any of said Banded Talons running Steel Wing anymore?
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There is one team that runs banded TFlame and that is the Azelf, Mana, pinsir, tflame, dragonite, excadrill dong team tryhards use on the ladder. It is most certainly not making a real comeback and one day people will start realizing how horrendous it truly is. I said this months ago so I guess that time isn't soon either.
 
Some musings:

Hoopa-U is all the rage now, and it's interesting to see how people's perceptions of it have changed since its introduction. When Hoopa-U became legal, players wasted no time messing around with their new toy. Players were quick to slap on a LO and have their fun with its powerful attacks and large movepool. After players started to use Hoopa-U for a while though, its hype started to die down. While LO sets were nice and all, players were turned off by how quickly recoil took its toll on Hoopa-U's health and wore the thing down between SR and other residual damage like sand. This affected its wallbreaking abilities and quickly placed Hoopa-U in range to be killed by things like Latios. As the metagame evolved, this started to change as players discovered new ways to abuse Hoopa-U. Band sets made an appearance, eventually followed by Specs. Both CB and Specs lack the recoil issue, pack greater power, and don't have to split EVs in Atk and SpA like LO does. Specs variants in particular are quickly gaining traction and becoming known as Hoopa-U's most lethal set. Unlike CB Hoopa-U, Specs doesn't mind burns as much. Special sponges are in less supply compared to physical ones like Lando-T, and teams generally don't have much to take crazy special hits like a Specs Dark Pulse. Combine this with Psyshock to break the special sponges Dark Pulse can't take down, like Chansey, and you have a Pokemon able to deal insane damage from both sides unlike CB. Finally, Dark Pulse has no drawback unlike Hyperspace Fury's defense drop, and this is useful to avoid being killed by things like Scarf Tar's Pursuit. Add the several other sets Hoopa-U can use to the picture and it's easy to see why this thing has become so dominating and unpredictable lately. Overall, Hoopa-U is a very dangerous and strong Pokemon currently. The monster performs well versus the majority of playstyles and can usually grab a kill or more during a battle. If it doesn't, it's very likely to have severely weakened something before dying. I am interested to see if the hype continues or dies down in the coming weeks.

On the topic of Hoopa-U, I find U-turn + Volt Switch to be a good way to bring out its full potential. Hoopa-U really likes being brought in for free, and I think this is something people have grown to realize. This is a reason things like Rotom-W and others are commonly being seen paired with it now. Being passive is something to be very cautious of in today's metagame, and using strong attackers alongside U-turn and Volt Switch is a good way to apply pressure and maintain momentum on your side in general. Things like Torn-T and Lando-T having access to U-turn and being overall good Pokemon contributes to this. This strategy fits naturally with the bulky offensive styles currently running rampant.

As far as other observations go, Tar and sand in general is popular. Aside from how valuable Scarf Tar is to trap Hoopa-U, its abilities as a supporter with SR and Chople have gained recognition during the past few months. Being the premier sand setter to use alongside offensive powerhouses like Exca is also of note. I have been seeing CB variants popping up more here and there, and these are cool to wall break and trap growing trends like Mega Latias more effectively. Tar is probably a reason things like Gengar have seen sharp declines in usage too.

Speaking of Mega Latias, it's so popular. It has been everywhere over the months, and it's easy to see why. Its typing, impressive bulk, and good speed are all valuable to help teams deal with Pokemon that aren't very easy to cover, such as Keld, Char-Y, Thund-I, and many others. Blanket checking so much in one slot is really valuable for many builds. It helps that Mega Latias isn't passive either, possessing a good deal of power and coverage between Ice Beam and Thunderbolt to threaten offensive teams rather well. Something interesting I've found is the debate between Thunder Wave and Reflect Type. I think the latter is starting to become more and more appealing now to help Mega Latias win many more 1v1 matchups (Heatran, Ferro, Bisharp as examples).

Lando-T remains the bulky ground of choice. Intimidate, U-turn, SR, SD, and the ability to check things like Exca and Char-X while avoiding the passiveness of Pokemon like Hippo is great. It has been given the nudge over Chomp for a while now, and is a reason offensive variants of the land shark are generally favored now. Other trends like AV Tangrowth and Amoonguss also continue to be effective and help teams cover a wide range of threats, such as Keld, Mega Diancie, and Loom. Pokemon like Clefable and Keldeo are still as good as they've ever been too.

Any other observations you guys have noticed or thought about lately?
 
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Yeah Hoopa is really good rn, probably the best it's ever been. There's absolutely no switch ins for the specs set, and ttar users constantly have to win 50/50s with focus blast/pursuit every time hoopa comes in or else their mons will be dropping quite frequently. Sand being popular isn't exactly a recent metagame trend per say, since sand has been gaining traction for months. The only reason that it's getting more attention now is because scarftar is amazing for fat teams that are hoopa weak since it forces hoopa to make moves other than mindlessly clicking its stab moves and requires the Hoopa user consistently have to win 50/50s to do damage to the opposing team. Another thing that I've noticed is that volturn teams in general are really good rn, being able to get dangerous breakers like specs hoopa-unbound and banded azu in really easily with little to no repercussion. The popularity of specs hoopa actually makes megabee builds really good rn and makes those archtypes really easy to use. One core I've been using recently is megabee+hp ice lo tran since lando is super popular rn and LO hp ice cleanly OHKOs defensive landot regardless of what set it uses. I really like the metagame rn, but hoopa volturn teams are really unfair to archtypes like bulky offense and balance, so I'm not sure how healthy they are for the metagame, but that's a discussion for another day.
 
So seeing as a Hoopa-U suspect maybe imminent (watch it be a perceived april fool's joke, but the real joke would be that it's actually true lol), let me leave my thoughts on the metas archetypes:

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Bulky Offense
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This is definitely a common playstyle that has been getting a lot of attention recently, as it allows players to reliably check/counter many of the meta's top threats while still being aggressive and not to passive at the same time. Notable pokemon such as Rotom-W and Bulky Landorus-T are particularly commonly seen throughout many of these teams, as they are great pivot tools and momentum gainers that can allow the player to bring in their respective check/counter to the opposing pokemon or they can bring their win condition to start preparing for a sweep. The overall flexibly and ease of use these archetype brings is what truly makes it stand out in my eyes, and is one of the reasons why its so dominant as it has very few poor matchups overall (only being very aggressive Hyper Offense teams and some Balanced Teams). The meta has definitely shifted towards a more "less offensive" playstyle since the beginning of ORAS, and Bulky Offense depicts this perfectly.

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Hyper Offense
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A playstyle that has dropped in popularity a bit in the past recent months, Hyper Offense is still a pretty effective archetype to use in the current meta. Being able to overwhelm your opponent with several offensive threats backed up by hazard support can be very menacing at times and difficult to endure the pressure at times. Key pokemon such as Mega Lopunny and Bisharp are vital components to several HO teams as they both provide tremendous offensive support and can reliably deal with other HO teams in given situations. The reason why I think it is used less is because many players are adapting to the offensive pressure and playing this playstyle can be very high risk/high reward at times, so depending the matchup, it may be unreliable. Sand Hyper Offense has also drastically increased significantly throughout the past couple months as people finally started realizing how broken Sand Rush Excadrill is.

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Balance
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I would say the most popular playstyle in OU history, Balance is really the jack of all trades archetype. The recent rise of Mega Latias really pushed Balance to solidify itself as one of the best playstyles around, as it gave teams a reliable bulky attacker that can check many of the meta's dangerous threats in Keldeo, Thundurus, Mega Charizard-Y, and Mega Medicham. Other win conditions such as Calm Mind Clefable and Bulk Up Talonflame also remain common and widespread throughout the playstyle, with defensive support from bulky walls such as Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Heatran, and Skarmory. Mega Venasaur is also another great option on Balance, but is not seen as much recently due to Mega Latias being so prevalent and amazing in its own right. Definitely an underrated playstyle, and I advocate that more players should use it more often.

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Stall
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The bane of everyone's existence, Stall has really taken a hit in viability after the Shadow Tag ban. I honestly do not see it very often when I ladder and the ones I see are usually not full on Stall and are kinda Semi/a hint of Stall, unlike before. I feel this is because Gothitelle is no longer their to eliminate stallbreakers that just destroy these teams. Now many pokemon such as Rain Dance + Tail Glow Manaphy, Swords Dance Gliscor, and Taunt + Bulk Up Talonflame just sweep these teams pretty efficiently, and unless these Stall teams carry at least 1-2 non passive pokemon, they are really hampering themselves do just get demolished by teams that carry stallbreakers. I really don't think Stall teams are the way to go at this point in time, and hopefully Sun and Moon can introduce some new mons/mechanics that can hopefully provide a saving grace to this archetype.

What are your guys thoughts on the different playstyles atm? I believe Bulky Offense to be the best, but I have been hearing different opinions as well.
 
Right now judging from OST bulky offense particularly Hoopa Unbound plus a defensive volt turn backbone (think defensive Rotom-w, assault vest Torn-T, or defensive Landorus-T) is a very effective archetype. Clefable and Rotom-W both have win rates around 55% (though judging how good a pokemon is from OST alone can be slightly problematic due to the small sample size but it is still a very good indicator of the direction the meta is moving) and seem to be extremely effective as bulky offensive staples. More offensively inclined spike stacking teams based around skarmory (60% win rate) or Ferrothorn (51.52%) seem to be on the rise. Hyper offensive staples meanwhile like Mega Lopunny, Bisharp, and Breloom seem to be struggling in the meta overall and in particular Hyper Offense as a play-style seems to be relatively uncommon at the very highest levels of play. Stall understandably has also declined since the goth ban but is something that can still be effective when used sparingly. A lot of stall builds though are leaning towards semi-stall with pokemon like pursuit tar to trap Hoopa Unbound.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-132299

This game from week 5 of SPL I think shows some of the new meta trends from OST very well. PDC is relying on a bulky offensive/ balance team utilizing skarm spike stack with choice band Hoopa Unbound and Swords Dance Terrakion (a breaker picking up steam with the decline of tank chomp) with Torn-T (which is actually offensive here) as a pivot to get Terrakion and Hoopa Unbound in. Aurious is using a balance team centered around scarf tar, clef, and Mega Latias who is raging in popularity. Ultimately it's an exciting game and shows if anything that the meta is moving away from the extreme polls of Hyper Offense and Stall.
 
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Bored so I thought I'd talk about a random mon I've had a lot of fun using the past couple days.

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Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Sucker Punch
- Shadow Claw/Will-O-Wisp/Taunt
- Gunk Shot

A few days ago I thought this thing shouldn't even be ranked in the viability thread cause it was always so disappointing to use it's support set, but after trying out a more offensive spread I've really liked him. Speed EVs let you outrun Adamant Loomer and Bish, but you can put a lot more in bulk and just outrun jolly azumarill if those two aren't problems for your team. Gunk Shot lures in MG Clefs who think they can stomach wisp and is also his strongest move, with a nifty 30% poison chance. Sucker Punch is decent priority, but without STAB the power output is a little underwhelming, failing to OHKO Hoopa-U. It's definitely a better option than Shadow Sneak, especially when you consider it can't even OHKO Latios at full health. Priority Destiny Bond is sweet in this meta packed full with powerful set up sweepers and cleaners and discourages your opponent from even trying to set up. His low base speed actual benefits him in this regard. If your opponent tries to PP stall DB you basically get a free turn to attack since it's still active until after you attack, and you can just use it again before your opponent moves thanks to prankster. The last move slot is basically a toss up between Shadow Claw and Wisp. On one hand Shadow Claw is slightly weaker than Gunk Shot but it has better accuracy and better neutral coverage, while Wisp cripples physical attackers. Taunt lets you break stall, but Banette doesn't have the bulk to take very many hits if you mispredict and your opponent attacks.

He does have a lot of problems though. Base 165 attack is kinda wasted since he doesn't have a strong STAB move to abuse it with, and the fact Prankster doesn't activate turn 1 is killer. Bad bulk also makes switching in on anything but resisted hits impossible. I paired him up with Magnet Rise Klefki and SD Lucario and it's worked pretty effectively so far. He threatens every relevant Defoger in OU and can Spin Block in a pinch if you have god level prediction skills. Between Destiny Bond, Extreme Speed, and Thunder Wave you're never going to be swept lol.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-349447506 low ladder but it's the only replay I have saved right now, but it still kinda shows what I was talking about when using Destiny Bond.

The only reason to use your mega slot on Banette is for priority Destiny Bond, which helps patch up a lot of holes in teams since it's basically a catch all stop to every sweeper lacking priority. This opens up a lot of different team possibilities since you don't have to have a check for every sweeper.

This part is kinda unrelated, but does anyone else think Mega Banette got screwed by the Mega Evolution mechanics? I mean, Sableye gets Prankster AND Magic Guard the turn it MegaEvos, while Banette loses his base ability and has to wait a turn for Prankster to kick in. Seems kinda of unfair to me, especially considering the only other Mega in the same boat is Swampert. Hopefully GF addresses this in Gen 7, even though I know they probably won't.
 
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jordanthejq12 said:
I've noticed Banded Talonflame appears to be making a comeback. What's prompted that? Also, are any of said Banded Talons running Steel Wing anymore?
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Wouldn't they mainly be spamming BB anyway? Flare Blitz might be good for STAB coverage, but with Gale Wings BB has priority so you can safely run an Adamant nature. Steel Wing may be good for coverage, against Mega Diancie? However, they'd likely then have to run Jolly, sacrificing power.

Quoting Adagio: "This part is kinda unrelated, but does anyone else think Mega Banette got screwed by the Mega Evolution mechanics? I mean, Sableye gets Prankster AND Magic Guard the turn it MegaEvos, while Banette loses his base ability and has to wait a turn for Prankster to kick in. Seems kinda of unfair to me, especially considering the only other Mega in the same boat is Swampert. Hopefully GF addresses this in Gen 7, even though I know they probably won't."

Speed changes don't kick in on Turn 1, so even Mega Swampert is cheated out of its ability (Swift Swim). A whole turn of rain wasted, and the chance of getting outsped and hit with a 4x effective Grass-type move. And although this is unrelated, in UU where weather-inducing abilities are banned, a whole precious turn of Rain is wasted, which had to be created using Rain Dance. Personally, I think Base Speed can stay the same on Turn 1, but mega abilities doing something to priority/speed should immediately overwrite previous ones.
 
staticladder said:
Wouldn't they mainly be spamming BB anyway? Flare Blitz might be good for STAB coverage, but with Gale Wings BB has priority so you can safely run an Adamant nature. Steel Wing may be good for coverage, against Mega Diancie? However, they'd likely then have to run Jolly, sacrificing power.

Quoting Adagio: "This part is kinda unrelated, but does anyone else think Mega Banette got screwed by the Mega Evolution mechanics? I mean, Sableye gets Prankster AND Magic Guard the turn it MegaEvos, while Banette loses his base ability and has to wait a turn for Prankster to kick in. Seems kinda of unfair to me, especially considering the only other Mega in the same boat is Swampert. Hopefully GF addresses this in Gen 7, even though I know they probably won't."

Speed changes don't kick in on Turn 1, so even Mega Swampert is cheated out of its ability (Swift Swim). A whole turn of rain wasted, and the chance of getting outsped and hit with a 4x effective Grass-type move. And although this is unrelated, in UU where weather-inducing abilities are banned, a whole precious turn of Rain is wasted, which had to be created using Rain Dance. Personally, I think Base Speed can stay the same on Turn 1, but mega abilities doing something to priority/speed should immediately overwrite previous ones.
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If my memory is right,Talonflame can get a 351 Speed without a Jolly Nature,faster than Mega Diancie who has 350 Max Speed.
A Jolly Nature is a must if you wanna Flare Blitz a Thundurus,who has 353 Speed as a maximum.
 
If you want Talonflame benchmarks, there are only a few which I'd ever consider aiming for:
  • 168+ - hits 363 Spe (on a jump point) and allows Talonflame to ourpace Raikou by one point
  • 136+ - hits 354 Spe and allows Talonflame to outpace Thundurus-I by one point
  • 252+ - hits 386 Spe and allows Talonflame to tie with opposing Talonflame (I normally run this)
Max adamant should only ever be run with Steel Wing and maybe NG Ground/Grass (depends how much it does to Diancie; too lazy to check), because otherwise the benchmark is entirely wasted (only thing resistant to flying at that benchmark is Mega Diancie).
 
Hi!

I created new, amazing Torn-T set which I'm kind pround of.

Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- Taunt

It shouts down most common leads like Clef, bulky Lando and Chomp, Keldeo, Azelf and others. You are protected from mindless thunder wave (which is like new trend recently).

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 364-432 (95.2 - 113%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 354-416 (84.8 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 239-282 (91.2 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Check it out, because I've got a lot fun with this set!
 
Hey everyone, I've been trying to add donphan on my ou team as a bulky spinner. Can anyone help me out on building a team with this set?
Donphan @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 123 Atk / 133 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Knock Off/Gunk Shot/Play Rough
 
Before I touch on Donphan being a poor Pokemon in the OU metagame, your EVs don't quite add up properly. 123 isn't divisible by 4.

Onto Donphan, although it may look like a decent bulky ground type on paper with the ability to spin, it fares really poorly when compared to the others and Donphan is usually dead weight in most cases as its priority Ice Shard is really weak, and is pretty slow for a Rapid Spinner when compared to the best ones in Excadrill and Starmie. Excadrill completely outclasses Donphan when it comes to Rapid Spinning. It gets a secondary STAB, hits harder, faster, able to revenge kill much better and has a better set of abilities to keep your opponent guessing. Rather than using that Donphan set, I recommend you trying Excadrill.

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Excadrill @ Life Orb / Air Balloon / Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker / Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Slide / Swords Dance / Toxic
 
Seth_ said:
Hi!

I created new, amazing Torn-T set which I'm kind pround of.

Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- Taunt

It shouts down most common leads like Clef, bulky Lando and Chomp, Keldeo, Azelf and others. You are protected from mindless thunder wave (which is like new trend recently).

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 364-432 (95.2 - 113%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 354-416 (84.8 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 239-282 (91.2 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Check it out, because I've got a lot fun with this set!
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Yo!

HP ice in theory might sound nice on Tornadus but in reality it doesnt hit anything which Hurricane doesn't. The calcs youve shown arent particularly special when you realise both Chomp and Lando are 2hkoed by Hurricane regardless, not to mention youre sacrificing either Superpower or Heat Wave, meaning you are now effectively walled by Ferrothorn, Heatran, TTar, Skarm, etc. You also sacrifice U-turn, the biggest reason for Tornadus's success, meaning you now lose switch initiative. Basically, you are sacrificing all of the benefits associated with using Tornadus to perform a role which can be much better done by something else.

I think this excerpt of text from an old thread might help you. It outlines the difference between an effective set and a gimmick, which is what many players seem to have trouble identifying. (the quote is written by Halycon)
In any sort of game where there are different options you can choose that your opponent doesn't know about, you will find that people try to use the element of surprise to gain an edge on the opponent. A good player will use this to lead their opponent in a specific direction based on their assumptions and then take advantage of those assumptions by revealing the unusual set/Pokemon at the exact right moment. However, there is a tendency among players to use things that, while they may lead the opponent in the direction you want, sacrifice overall viability and effectiveness to do so. These are referred to as gimmicks, and should generally be avoided.

Gimmick vs Innovative
It can be difficult to tell the difference between an effective surprise set and a gimmick set. People will often test something on, say, the ladder, and find that their gimmick was effective in what it was supposed to do against a specific opponent, so they believe that their gimmick is actually an effective and underrated set. Let's take the example of someone (let's call him Halcyon) using Scarf Lucario with Crunch. They go on the ladder, and are able to KO the opponent's Gengar with Crunch because the opponent did not expect Lucario to be faster than Gengar. Halcyon leaves the match thinking "aw yeah, my Scarf Lucario set worked! I knew it was an effective set! I'm gonna keep using it." However, this is false for a number of reasons. The first thing to consider when using an unusual set is "does this unusual set do what it is supposed to do?" For this, Halcyon can say yes if his team needs something to lure and beat Gengar. His Scarf Lucario did just that. But the next thing to ask is "does the benefit of using this set outweigh the viability of other options for this team slot?"

That's kind of a mouthful so I'll try to explain it in a way you all can understand. Essentially, you need to ask yourself if it's really worth running that set. By running a Scarf Lucario, you are giving up both the potential that Lucario as a whole can offer your team as well as the potential benefit that the slot in your team can provide. Scarf Lucario is a poor choice and is labeled a "gimmick" because there are Pokemon that can fulfill that same role while also providing other utility to the team. Assault Vest Conkeldurr, for example, can also check Gengar and can absorb status, something that Lucario could not do.
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Hope this helped.
 
referring to the particular set in question it aint good. Even on 4 attacks Torn, it forces you to have less coverage options just to hit a very small pool of targets.
 
Flamer said:
Yo!

HP ice in theory might sound nice on Tornadus but in reality it doesnt hit anything which Hurricane doesn't. The calcs youve shown arent particularly special when you realise both Chomp and Lando are 2hkoed by Hurricane regardless, not to mention youre sacrificing either Superpower or Heat Wave, meaning you are now effectively walled by Ferrothorn, Heatran, TTar, Skarm, etc. You also sacrifice U-turn, the biggest reason for Tornadus's success, meaning you now lose switch initiative. Basically, you are sacrificing all of the benefits associated with using Tornadus to perform a role which can be much better done by something else.

I think this excerpt of text from an old thread might help you. It outlines the difference between an effective set and a gimmick, which is what many players seem to have trouble identifying. (the quote is written by Halycon)


Hope this helped.
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HP Ice gives Torn-T ability to check Garchomp/Landorus-T/Gliscor,by switching into EQ and hit back."it doesnt hit anything which Hurricane doesn't" is true,but it can OHKO something Hurricane can not.

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 364-432 (95.2 - 113%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 247-292 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And can KO Garchomp/Gliscor on a higher health range without the risk of miss.

It is not a meaningless move for it,though team dependant.

An example of Pokemon often run move that "doesn't hit anything its STABs don't" is Mega Diancie,who runs Earth Power at a rate of 63.617%,while HP Fire at a rate of 36.917%.It is easily to find HP Fire is a better coverage move for Mega Diancie - Even after you take the loss of 350 Speed into consideration - Only if on a situation that your opponent has to switch out and you can predict freely.

Heatran can be 2HKO from Diamond Storm (if HP investment exists would be 3HKO),Spec Magnezone can be 2HKO from HP Fire,Bisharp has a chance of 37.5% to be OHKOed by Moonblast,Klekfi runs Magnet Rise,Mega Metagross is both 2HKOed by HP Fire and Earth Power after Stealth Rock,so why people need Earth Power?

I mean,in a metagame where pivoting,predicting and double switching are very common,there is a big chance to face other popular threats 1vs1,while both cannot switch into each other in paper,such as Tornadus-T vs the Ground/Flying-Types,Mega Diancie vs Bisharp,Mega Lopunny vs Landorus-T,and many other situations.The move that "doesnt hit anything which Hurricane/whatever doesn't" may cannot make your checks fewer,but can increase your space to predict or operate,allows you to check/be pivoted into/double switch into/revenge kill(or not be revenged by) something that you cannot without it.
 
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