I would have to agree with that statement, Hoopa is powerful and it would be good to ban him and see how the metagame shifts, and if the metagame gets out of whack then let it back into OU either way Hoopa kinda deserves this test due to 0 things being able to effectively switch in onto it, lackluster speed and defense or not.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned
- Thread starter kumiko
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Geez, a lot of bold, and a lot of heated opinions as usual during a suspect test. Anyways, I will personally say that I have never had many problems with Hoopa-u, but like Bludz, I don't play anything other than bulky offense. Plus, Zapdos usually manages to check it, though I suspect that I just got lucky with my opponent's sets. Having said that, I feel that Hoopa-u should be banned, because of the crazy strain it puts on team building, how it manages to pressure its checks and counters, and how it can make its teammate's lives easier, or just smash teams given proper support. Everyone knows its three or four main sets, but let's not forget that its primary moves hit hard enough that he can use whatever he wants as filler.
Getting it in may be somewhat difficult, but when its in, your opponent has to choose what he wants to die. IMO, that's too good a capability to give one wall breaker.
Pursuit and other priority seems like a poor method of dealing with it, as none of them can switch in.
Getting it in may be somewhat difficult, but when its in, your opponent has to choose what he wants to die. IMO, that's too good a capability to give one wall breaker.
Pursuit and other priority seems like a poor method of dealing with it, as none of them can switch in.
YES. THANK GOD THIS THING IS FINALLY BEING SUSPECTED. imo Hoopa deserved a ban from the start, its absurd attacking stats and decent bulk led it to become the menace of OU, making stall teams and defensive teams useless. This thing has no counters whatsoever because of its unpredictable movepool and ungodly attacking stats. Psychic/Dark is an amazing typing compared to original Hoopa's Psychic/Ghost. Dark is just an amazing typing overall. Sure Protect allows it to scout for Specs, but when you only have checks to Hoopa, you basically have to sacrifice one Pokemon to this monster to take it out. It could also surprise what you thought outsped Hoopa with Choice Scarf. On top of that, Trick is a move which Hoopa can learn, which combined with Choice Scarf is just too good.
If Hoopa got banned, we should just wait for the meta to shift. If it shifts in a bad way, I say we let things like Greninja come back to OU and try to rebalance the meta again. Then again, on second thought, Greninja might be a bad idea, Aegislash instead.
Alright, I'm done. Hope this thing gets banned, I'm out to play on the new ladder.
I agree with what you said. Though, I'm going to say this in my own words. Suprisingly enough this is my opinion. Don't hate because of that.MrSnowBro said:
If Hoopa got banned, we should just wait for the meta to shift. If it shifts in a bad way, I say we let things like Greninja come back to OU and try to rebalance the meta again. Then again, on second thought, Greninja might be a bad idea, Aegislash instead.
Alright, I'm done. Hope this thing gets banned, I'm out to play on the new ladder.
I hope they dont bring the frog to OU XD. But lets wait and see if this threat comes to a good end, and by what i've seen it seems that Hoopa-U is going to get some vacations for now.
But there's one thing that you said that isnt true at all, being it it has no real counter, with an obvious one being any u-turn pokemon, like some banded birds that i know, or even landorus with that move, but yes, you hold the bases of why we want to ban Hoopa. I'll give you a piece of advice: dont play him in monotype, it gets rekt most of the time by those poison or flying type trainers
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Scald? Jellicent
problem solved :p
I personally always hated to see a Hoopa in my opponents team. I always tried to stack hazards so without recovery it would die soon enough right? Not it would not. The newly popular choice sets don't even lose health when they use an attack. Every time it came in, i had to choose what i wanted to die. Conclusion: with the correct support it can easily destroy balance, stall and other bulky teams. As a balance player i had to change my playstyle back to (hyper-)offense. Already the fact that Hoopa-U makes more offense teams appear is a sign of an overcentralizing metagame imo. Since when am i forced to play pursuit on my dark mons? Just to trap Hoopa that is. And even then, losing a mon after killing one is never bad, because this means that you opened up an opportunity for yourself to win the game, since your opponent probably just lost one of his checks to one of the other pokemon on your team. If this is the only way to combat this thing i don't see why it would not be broken. Thus, I am in favor of a ban.
I personally always hated to see a Hoopa in my opponents team. I always tried to stack hazards so without recovery it would die soon enough right? Not it would not. The newly popular choice sets don't even lose health when they use an attack. Every time it came in, i had to choose what i wanted to die. Conclusion: with the correct support it can easily destroy balance, stall and other bulky teams. As a balance player i had to change my playstyle back to (hyper-)offense. Already the fact that Hoopa-U makes more offense teams appear is a sign of an overcentralizing metagame imo. Since when am i forced to play pursuit on my dark mons? Just to trap Hoopa that is. And even then, losing a mon after killing one is never bad, because this means that you opened up an opportunity for yourself to win the game, since your opponent probably just lost one of his checks to one of the other pokemon on your team. If this is the only way to combat this thing i don't see why it would not be broken. Thus, I am in favor of a ban.
After this suspect i'm defiitively sure that smogon hates wallbreakers. Well, it's true that this mon has a monstrous offensive power, but how can Hoopa be broken in a Metagame where Tornadus-T, Tyranitar, Mega-Lopunny, Mega-Medicham , ExcaSand , priority etc... are literally everywhere? That's one of the few mons which has a chance to give some problem to stall/semistall (teams that are already controlling the mg) and without it we'd see stall in 9/10 battles and the mg could result monotonous. Then I think hoopa it's not broken at all and it should remain OU.
What's a Manaphy? What's a LO Victini? What's a spdef Talonflame? What happened to thundurus I? What's a specs Keldeo? SD Landorus T anyone? I think someone mentioned B Kyurem once in the BW era, oh also torn T is actually quite good vs stall.
And those aren't even the Megas capable of wallbreaking, of course all of those come with some degree of weaknesses, being choice locked, having to set up(TG Manaphy), being match up reliant, however outside of being "possibly" choice locked and on the 80 base speed limbo Hoopa U doesn't have those weaknesses he is an immediate nuke that forces advantageous 50/50 for the one with Hoopa U on the field, his movepool forces a terrible scenario where you either check it one time or sack a Pokemon to hope to revenge kill, when that is done Hoopa U has already fullfilled it's job and boy he can do that with incredible reliability.
As far as I know we have the support clause and that's the one we had for Deo D debates where a Pokemon performs it's role do well that it skewers the hyperbole on the side of its intended playstyle...and this is what Hoopa U is doing, his ability to perform it's job at wallbreaking has already skewered the metagame in form of overpreparation for one scenario in bulky builds or outright rising the usage of offense to abuse it's presence. Do folks remember a rise in p2 usage on the Greninja days? Well people have deluded themselves in the lower common denominator that umbreon is an answer to him, that's how desperate the situation has gotten.
There are many wallbreakers, but as i said before, he's a fun pokemon to play sometimes, but as its tier states is over used with more succes than others, having the most powerful priority move alongside with huge versatility, that, and i say this by personal experience using it, it can't be checked well, and by the time someone ended my rampage it'd have lost most members of the team or the most important ones. I respect all opinions but saying there are many other broken pokemons for me sounds cheap. Sure, some of your examples are true, like medicham or excadrill being strong, but in this thread we're discussing Hoopa, also mega metagross was chosen to remain in ou, decition wich i didnt agree, but i have to deal with it and has a fairly visible and easy to pull of counterplay. Sorry if i sounded offensive, it wasnt mi intention, i just wanted to bring some points that can be missed by some players. In any case i know what you're saying and i really get annoyed by stall comps sometimes, but its easy to play around them with enough practice and hours spent thinking about demanding game freak for creating ferrothorn or mega- sableye.
The last part is joke, i respect all playstyles and opinions.
What's a LO victini? lol who the fuck uses victini, how can keldeo break stall when amoonguss is on all Stall, Lando-T Sdance? Talonflame? Thundurus-I? all walled by a stupid Quagsire , Manaphy is the only one which really can give problem to stall but also it can be stopped by a Chansey or an Unaware Clef , and the tg rd can be also stopped by Amoonguss + Heal Bell(chansey) be serious man...
That's all true, but we need to see if things would change much without Hoopa, i know it's powerful and helps with the stall wall meta that has been running around since quite some time and is frustating, but there are other good options that doesnt cost 2-3 checks every game
You hold a point, and while a timid slacking with choice band (i know it might sound weird) retaliate can kill him, he has so much priority. Also im hoping they tone down a bit manaphy or just mons with amazing setups, but Hoopa needs no set up or match, he just kills
There are plenty of other ways of dealing with stall . Hoopa isn't the only way of dealing with stall . There are plenty of stallbreakers that dealt with stall before hoopa before its release, and there is no difference if it got banned (except for the fact that goth cannot replace since its been banned) but saying stall will dominant if it got ban is a bit ridiculous . Will it see more play ? Yeah absolutely. I mean it gets a little bit of freedom . 9 out of every 10 battles ? That's overexaggerating .
As much as Hoopa Unbound can limit some teambuilding, and that is a factor that makes it unbalanced. It keeps things like Stall at bay, and like stated by many people, it's no good vs offense, often it can't even get a kill vs it.
I really like using it in OU, and I feel its very similar to Mega Metagross when it was being suspected, "theoretically no switch ins" but it has severe 4MSS. So it can't run all seven moves it needs xD. And unlike Mega Metagross, Hoopa Unbound doesn't have the Speed nor the Physical bulk that it needs to keep up vs offensive based teams.
I'm against the Hoopa-Unbound ban as well as I know many of my friends are.
I really like using it in OU, and I feel its very similar to Mega Metagross when it was being suspected, "theoretically no switch ins" but it has severe 4MSS. So it can't run all seven moves it needs xD. And unlike Mega Metagross, Hoopa Unbound doesn't have the Speed nor the Physical bulk that it needs to keep up vs offensive based teams.
I'm against the Hoopa-Unbound ban as well as I know many of my friends are.
Dang, I didn't realize how tight 70 would be. I'm on track atm, but a few unfortunate losses and I'm done for.
As for Hoopa, I'm on the fence with this one. On the one hand, Hoopa is such a great wallbreaker, but outside of scarf sets, it struggles against offense.
If I had to choose right now, the specs and band sets are leading me toward ban, but I'm pretty easily swayed on this.
As for Hoopa, I'm on the fence with this one. On the one hand, Hoopa is such a great wallbreaker, but outside of scarf sets, it struggles against offense.
If I had to choose right now, the specs and band sets are leading me toward ban, but I'm pretty easily swayed on this.
The reality is that stall is not nearly as powerful right now as people believe. Full stall teams of any makeup will generally lose to CM Manaphy + Unaware Clef counter. It's a very matchup dependant style since the Goth ban and would continue to be so in Hoopa's absence.
The other wallbreakers people have mentioned are good pokemon but they don't share Hoopa's astonishing capacity to 2hko the entire tier with the right move. The closest pokemon on paper would be Victini due to its excellent coverage options on both offenses. Yet in practice, the physical variant can be switched into by physical walls and the special variant can be switched into by special walls.
None of this is true of Hoopa because its mixed offenses dwarf anything not named Kyurem B and its coverage and Stab options are so useful.
I'm still on the fence about the ban because I slightly disagree with the assessment that any one move it has is "spammable" vs stall since Chansey laughs at Dark Pulse, and Psyshock obviously has immunities.
The other wallbreakers people have mentioned are good pokemon but they don't share Hoopa's astonishing capacity to 2hko the entire tier with the right move. The closest pokemon on paper would be Victini due to its excellent coverage options on both offenses. Yet in practice, the physical variant can be switched into by physical walls and the special variant can be switched into by special walls.
None of this is true of Hoopa because its mixed offenses dwarf anything not named Kyurem B and its coverage and Stab options are so useful.
I'm still on the fence about the ban because I slightly disagree with the assessment that any one move it has is "spammable" vs stall since Chansey laughs at Dark Pulse, and Psyshock obviously has immunities.
By the way, guys, don't go on YouTube. All I see is "Hurr durr Smogon is a bunch of stall-loving assholes". Suspect threads are, by comparison, bastions of reasonable thought and debate.
Anyway, I'm gonna miss this guy, but he's gotta go. Yes, he does not appreciate physical moves. Yes, he crumples to a Pursuit or especially a U-Turn. That said, the ability to 2HKO the entire tier with one freaking set (thank you, Thunderbolt) is, I feel, just too much. Not to mention that he does fit nicely on VoltTurn, which can alleviate the issues involved with bringing him in. And once he gets in, odds are he's getting a kill. While counterplay certainly exists, reliable counterplay is a different story. Sure, you can bring in your ScarfTar on a Psyshock and more or less drop it without it doing much of anything. But--as is oft-repeated on Smogon, and with good reason--prediction goes both ways. Maybe your opponent reads the T-Tar switch, clicks Focus Blast, and actually hits. Then what?
And no, stall is not going to magically dominate the tier again, not with Manaphy and Kyurem-B and Mega Gardevoir and Keldeo still around and Shadow Tag not.
Anyway, I'm gonna miss this guy, but he's gotta go. Yes, he does not appreciate physical moves. Yes, he crumples to a Pursuit or especially a U-Turn. That said, the ability to 2HKO the entire tier with one freaking set (thank you, Thunderbolt) is, I feel, just too much. Not to mention that he does fit nicely on VoltTurn, which can alleviate the issues involved with bringing him in. And once he gets in, odds are he's getting a kill. While counterplay certainly exists, reliable counterplay is a different story. Sure, you can bring in your ScarfTar on a Psyshock and more or less drop it without it doing much of anything. But--as is oft-repeated on Smogon, and with good reason--prediction goes both ways. Maybe your opponent reads the T-Tar switch, clicks Focus Blast, and actually hits. Then what?
And no, stall is not going to magically dominate the tier again, not with Manaphy and Kyurem-B and Mega Gardevoir and Keldeo still around and Shadow Tag not.
Sooo, a stall breaker should be able to one v six always? Man, your hate for stall has really blinded ya. No stall breaker should always be able to one v six, it is stupid to think so.
How Uoopa stayed in OU for so long boggles my mind. Stat wise, this thing is a type shifted Kyurem-W on roids (said steroids being responsible for its higher Attack, but lower Defense and Speed). It's offensive versatility is insane. It's pretty much guaranteed a kill every game.
That said my argument isn't really an argument as much as it is a question.
I know that generally HO gives no fucks about sacking something to Pursuit check it.
I know Balanced can manage too.
My question is, what can Stall do to it without being gimmicky af or otherwise harming its viability against everything else in the tier?
Note that I'm not talking "Stall with one or two offensive options" Stall. I'm talking real stall, Pure Stall. A playstyle that's lost favor among the populace because "It's not fun to play against." I for one have had riveting Stall battles. I consider it like a game of chess. It ultimately comes down to a game of resource management and will. I really like that. I wish more people could appreciate it instead of "Oh god it's stall. Fuck this."
I recall that before Shadow Tag was banned I saw people using Signal Beam Goth to beat it. Signal Beam Goth. You can't make this shit up.
Uoopa's presence has always hard pressed Stall since its introduction. I'd like to see it banned.
That said my argument isn't really an argument as much as it is a question.
I know that generally HO gives no fucks about sacking something to Pursuit check it.
I know Balanced can manage too.
My question is, what can Stall do to it without being gimmicky af or otherwise harming its viability against everything else in the tier?
Note that I'm not talking "Stall with one or two offensive options" Stall. I'm talking real stall, Pure Stall. A playstyle that's lost favor among the populace because "It's not fun to play against." I for one have had riveting Stall battles. I consider it like a game of chess. It ultimately comes down to a game of resource management and will. I really like that. I wish more people could appreciate it instead of "Oh god it's stall. Fuck this."
I recall that before Shadow Tag was banned I saw people using Signal Beam Goth to beat it. Signal Beam Goth. You can't make this shit up.
Uoopa's presence has always hard pressed Stall since its introduction. I'd like to see it banned.
Thanks for reminding people that Victini still exists and that unlike Manaphy it can go mixed(energy ball coz fuck you quagsire) and use taunt/wow if the situation demands it with the perks of immediate fire power.
And yes, no wallbreaker is close to compete with Hoopa U immediate and diverse firepower, all of the other wallbreakers have their relatively safe switch ins and straightforward checks, sadly Hoopa U is a whole nother kind of beast in wich it's set determines it's one time checks, or should I say lack of them and there is no safe scouting against him unlike the rest of the wallbreakers.
I mean it's quite obvious that he sticks like a sore thumb balance wise and the spike on offense after the rise of specs set catches on as a blanket answer to non pursuit based stall.
I hate to sound repetitive but deo D is the standard of a superior support mon that favored offense, Greninja was the pick what you want gone of OU as we didn't have mgengar assassination, gothitrap was the volturn/stall assassin of choice, aegis being the Ultimate glue mon Pivot/Wallbreaker Pokémon that had no reason not to be stapled on every team and MSalamance would have been the bulky set up sweeper you won't be able to revenge kill once uturned in, that leaves us with the slightly slower Kyurem with a movepool acing on the wallbreaker role with very few abusable weakspots for OU that isn't eating a megaslot like mega Mawile...
I'm sorry if I drew comparison but all those Pokémon had the same effect, they became restrictive as hell during teambuilding, being either rising porygon2 to the base of balance, invalidating psychics or forcing CB mamoswine/bulky arcanine to be considered as serious answers to a single Pokémon while making us run shed shell Manaphy....you get the picture they forced a very oppressive view on team building solely out of their existence and for that Hoopa U should be considered ban worthy as it has a similar effect.
And yes, no wallbreaker is close to compete with Hoopa U immediate and diverse firepower, all of the other wallbreakers have their relatively safe switch ins and straightforward checks, sadly Hoopa U is a whole nother kind of beast in wich it's set determines it's one time checks, or should I say lack of them and there is no safe scouting against him unlike the rest of the wallbreakers.
I mean it's quite obvious that he sticks like a sore thumb balance wise and the spike on offense after the rise of specs set catches on as a blanket answer to non pursuit based stall.
I hate to sound repetitive but deo D is the standard of a superior support mon that favored offense, Greninja was the pick what you want gone of OU as we didn't have mgengar assassination, gothitrap was the volturn/stall assassin of choice, aegis being the Ultimate glue mon Pivot/Wallbreaker Pokémon that had no reason not to be stapled on every team and MSalamance would have been the bulky set up sweeper you won't be able to revenge kill once uturned in, that leaves us with the slightly slower Kyurem with a movepool acing on the wallbreaker role with very few abusable weakspots for OU that isn't eating a megaslot like mega Mawile...
I'm sorry if I drew comparison but all those Pokémon had the same effect, they became restrictive as hell during teambuilding, being either rising porygon2 to the base of balance, invalidating psychics or forcing CB mamoswine/bulky arcanine to be considered as serious answers to a single Pokémon while making us run shed shell Manaphy....you get the picture they forced a very oppressive view on team building solely out of their existence and for that Hoopa U should be considered ban worthy as it has a similar effect.
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This is just like Megagross. Something that isn't broken at all is being considered for ban, simply because it "restricts teambuilding", "2HKOs everything", and "we want to see how the metagame changes". I will explain why those accusations are similarly false.
"It restricts teambuilding!"
That's almost irrelevant when literally every A+ & S tier Pokemon restricts teambuilding as well. You either keep them in mind, or else you will fail. Stop being lazy and put a Hoopa-U check on your team! I assure you, it isn't difficult...Any decently strong physical attacker at least max 127 base speed will do, and that's for scarf (mega bunny & bee). Specs have more checks than I can count, but Talonflame & Garchomp are my favorite.
"2HKOs almost every switch-in!"
So does Band Azumarill, Specs Chandelure, Band Rampardos, Band Haxurus, etc. Doesn't make them broken, and they are either faster than Hoopa-U, stronger, or have priority. Fact is, every Pokemon can only have 4 moves, and choice items locks you into a single move as a payment for increased speed or power. For example, Psyshock is a free switch in for every dark type in OU. A choice-locked Hoopa-U would normally have no choice but to keep switching out whenever it attacks, because it is just too freaking easy to revenge kill this "banworthy" Pokemon.
"We wanna see how the metagame shifts"
This is just a fancy way of saying "I don't have any real reasons to ban this pokemon other than to see what happens". That is just...*sigh*
We're supposed to ban something if it's BANWORTHY! Nothing more, nothing less!
I forgot to say, I choose no ban!
"It restricts teambuilding!"
That's almost irrelevant when literally every A+ & S tier Pokemon restricts teambuilding as well. You either keep them in mind, or else you will fail. Stop being lazy and put a Hoopa-U check on your team! I assure you, it isn't difficult...Any decently strong physical attacker at least max 127 base speed will do, and that's for scarf (mega bunny & bee). Specs have more checks than I can count, but Talonflame & Garchomp are my favorite.
"2HKOs almost every switch-in!"
So does Band Azumarill, Specs Chandelure, Band Rampardos, Band Haxurus, etc. Doesn't make them broken, and they are either faster than Hoopa-U, stronger, or have priority. Fact is, every Pokemon can only have 4 moves, and choice items locks you into a single move as a payment for increased speed or power. For example, Psyshock is a free switch in for every dark type in OU. A choice-locked Hoopa-U would normally have no choice but to keep switching out whenever it attacks, because it is just too freaking easy to revenge kill this "banworthy" Pokemon.
"We wanna see how the metagame shifts"
This is just a fancy way of saying "I don't have any real reasons to ban this pokemon other than to see what happens". That is just...*sigh*
We're supposed to ban something if it's BANWORTHY! Nothing more, nothing less!
I forgot to say, I choose no ban!
Hoopa-U is basically what makes Stall/slow Balance for the most part unviable. All of this about hazards existing, and Pursuit trapping existing is funny but none of that is what makes a Pokemon broken or not. When we formally decide whether something is broken or not, I'm pretty sure hazards affecting it or not is definitely not what we take into account. The only relevant factor in this arguement are the constraints it puts on team building, and whether it renders the game playable or not. I'd say it doesn't because just by existing Stall has practically become unplayable, now there are a number of other things that make stall a less than desirable playstyle, but Hoopa-U is just the nail in the coffin. As for slower balance teams, they also get murdered by random Hoopa-U variants to be honest. THe only one that's less threatening in general is Scarf Hoopa-U but that set under the right conditions can still threaten balance(read hazards), and once the Bisharp is removed can also threaten most offense squads.
Saying "play offense" isn't a real answer, if anything shifts the metagame so much that some playstyles become near unviable then its definitely worth taking a look at. Also I don't know how Hoopa-U in anyway "rewards smart plays" or "prediction" when its STAB is extremely spammable, and can result in lots of games bieng lost on matchup, in an already matchup orientated tier. People are saying that stopping stall from becoming, is reason enough to allow Hoopa-U to remain unbanned, but honestly I think that's faulty logic. Pretty sure that a lot of people are just upset that they're gonna have to work a hell of a lot harder for their wins, if/when Hoopa-U gets banned than just tossing it on as a one mon demolishing crew for slower teams. I love how physical walls can't even properly switch in to Band Hoopa-U at all, even with physically defensive sets, and are all basically 2HKO'd opening the door for Hoopa-U to just floor everything else, or allow something to come in and finish the job. And lets face it getting it in isn't that difficult when slow Volt-Turn exists, and/or smart pivoting can be done; its defensive stats and/or how hazards hamper it shouldn't even be mentoned, because if the Hoopa-U player knows what their doing Hoopa-U won't be taking hits anyway.
Also if someone brings up the arguement that other A+/S rank'ers have to be accounted for then I'll just say that most of them have sure fire checks/counters; please name me one such check for Hoopa-U, that isn't completely floored by one of the common sets i.e. LO/Band/Specs Hoopa-U. How do slower styles even account for this? How do they adapt? Saying its a "metagame shift" isn't an answer, and pretending that ORAS OU needs to have broken things present in the tier to further dominate already struggling play styles is just stupid. You can generally tell how balance or unbalanced a tier is by gauging the effectiveness of stall in it, and ORAS OU is no way nice to stall with TG Manaphy/SD Cross/Mega Garde existing but Hoopa-U being added is just icing on the cake, and pushes defensive(even balanced teams into obscurity).
Saying "play offense" isn't a real answer, if anything shifts the metagame so much that some playstyles become near unviable then its definitely worth taking a look at. Also I don't know how Hoopa-U in anyway "rewards smart plays" or "prediction" when its STAB is extremely spammable, and can result in lots of games bieng lost on matchup, in an already matchup orientated tier. People are saying that stopping stall from becoming, is reason enough to allow Hoopa-U to remain unbanned, but honestly I think that's faulty logic. Pretty sure that a lot of people are just upset that they're gonna have to work a hell of a lot harder for their wins, if/when Hoopa-U gets banned than just tossing it on as a one mon demolishing crew for slower teams. I love how physical walls can't even properly switch in to Band Hoopa-U at all, even with physically defensive sets, and are all basically 2HKO'd opening the door for Hoopa-U to just floor everything else, or allow something to come in and finish the job. And lets face it getting it in isn't that difficult when slow Volt-Turn exists, and/or smart pivoting can be done; its defensive stats and/or how hazards hamper it shouldn't even be mentoned, because if the Hoopa-U player knows what their doing Hoopa-U won't be taking hits anyway.
Also if someone brings up the arguement that other A+/S rank'ers have to be accounted for then I'll just say that most of them have sure fire checks/counters; please name me one such check for Hoopa-U, that isn't completely floored by one of the common sets i.e. LO/Band/Specs Hoopa-U. How do slower styles even account for this? How do they adapt? Saying its a "metagame shift" isn't an answer, and pretending that ORAS OU needs to have broken things present in the tier to further dominate already struggling play styles is just stupid. You can generally tell how balance or unbalanced a tier is by gauging the effectiveness of stall in it, and ORAS OU is no way nice to stall with TG Manaphy/SD Cross/Mega Garde existing but Hoopa-U being added is just icing on the cake, and pushes defensive(even balanced teams into obscurity).
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You can put as many checks to Hoopa on your team as you want, but you won't be able to switch in ANYTHING even remotely safely. If you run a single Pokemon that allows Hoopa to switch in and attack, then Hoopa will get a kill most of the time. However, that's not what restricting teambuilding means. Stall cannot exist in a relevant manner while Hoopa exists. Stall is forced to build in a semi-stall-like manner in order to have any chance (and even then it generally loses).
While I agree that the argument itself is relatively weak, you chose some really poor examples of Pokemon. Band Azumarill is the only Pokemon of the 4 with any relevance. The better example is more likely BW Kyurem-B or BW Hydreigon. Both had no true counters and nothing could switch in, but were deemed fine in competitive play.
If a metagame is poor, why not try to change it? The point of tiers is to create the best possible experience for the players. If a Pokemon is creating a poor experience for the people on the site, then that's reason enough. If that's the case with Hoopa, then so be it. Others are claiming that preventing stall is a positive to counteract this point.
I don't mean to call you out, I just wanted to make sure that everyone at least understands the purpose of the ban and doesn't feel as if this is just some random attempt at frustrating people like yourself. I am personally on the fence and actually fully understand a lot of what you are saying, but just don't want confusion spreading.
Uh this largely amounts to an assertion that because BO / HO have a lot of checks that it's an irrelevant threat to deal with. Practically all of the other top tier threats that are in S have at least one reliable check that doesn't have to outspeed it and risk just having the Hoopa switchout into the counter for x offensive threat ie tankchomp which loses the Hoopa user nothing after getting a kill. Torn is checked reasonably by Rotom Mane and Diancie which in theory come in decently, Keld has numerous checks across play styles and Clef can be checked reasonably by Heatran / Venu / SD Lando / Talon / Gross etc. Hoopa's answers on fat amount to Scarftar after it either kills a necessary team member or as you dodge a Focus Blast in which case great gameplan bro. Mandi is an awful check to Specs because Focus can 2HKO mixdef and tbolt obviously merks it. It's still a threat to opposing offense because unless you're playing really fast and frail offense there's at least something that its faster than, ie tankchomp / fat lando / rotom etc which you usually can't afford to take 80+ with because then you'll lose to lopunny / tflame in the back. Yeah it can't come in on offense but voltturn is a super common thing explicitly for Hoopa snd other wall breakers, the main difference is that Hoopa isn't rocks weak and doesn't have a viable hard wall besides psyshock dpulse mind games against stall (ie kyub and azu and other breakers can conceivably be walled by somethjng consistently)
Not sure yet on ban yet tho
Edit: been addressed before I posted, my b
First and for all, I agree with the fact Hoopa-U has no safe switch-ins is not a reason to get it banned - the same could be said for any powerful wallbreaker with anything resembling good coverage.
But, when you have something like Hoopa-U that has a stupidly-high attacking stat in both ends of the spectrum (At least Kyurem-B 'only' has base 120 Special Attack and a pathetic movepool compared to Hoopa's), I say it's a very good reason to have it at least suspected.
That means (For stall, the one that absolutely hates it the most) that you need to take it with at least one physical AND one special potential switch-in (Both healthy, of course) because 1) You first have to guess the item and 2) You can guess the wrong item (What if it has Expert Belt when you thought it was Choiced? It's not like it's unviable). And both kinds of switch-ins can be quite limited thanks to its coverage (Since the only thing resembling a fast wall is Mega Latias, and it can only switch into Psyshock, this means you have to find something that is not 2HKOed, or have insane prediction skills). Otherwise, you are forced to sac something so that you can revenge kill Hoopa... which goes against the reason people pick stall to begin with (Not to mention it can backfire spectacularly if it carries an Expert Belt and used Hyperspace Fury, and you are trying to Pursuit-trap it. The horror of seeing that seemingly choice-locked Hoopa-U is staying, easily stomachs the Pursuit and OHKOes your Dark-type with Focus Miss or Drain Punch...).
Now, Hoopa-U has its nice amount of problems too. One I can find to be a reasonable argument against banning is how it constricts teambuilding for its own trainer - just as hardly anything can switch into Hoopa-U, there are hardly any things Hoopa-U can switch to that are not certain Status moves. This means it's not like certain banned Pokemon like Mega-Mence or Greninja (Which only needed things that defeated the few mons their sets couldn't get past through) or Aegislash (AKA Superglue). For starters, Hoopa-U needs at the very least a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch (Preferably a core) so that it does not take any direct damage upon switching in. Hoopa-U also hates the fact several powerful moves can OHKO it after Rocks (But not without, so a Spinner or Defogger is mandatory. Then you need your hazard setter. That's FOUR slots mostly dedicated to support Hoopa-U, leaving you with only one free slot (Which can still be dedicated with something with Wish/Healing Wish). tl;dr You cannot predict Hoopa-U's set, but you can predict its partners.
Not leaning towards anything... it's not like I think I'm good enough to see the bigger picture of what it does to the meta.
But, when you have something like Hoopa-U that has a stupidly-high attacking stat in both ends of the spectrum (At least Kyurem-B 'only' has base 120 Special Attack and a pathetic movepool compared to Hoopa's), I say it's a very good reason to have it at least suspected.
That means (For stall, the one that absolutely hates it the most) that you need to take it with at least one physical AND one special potential switch-in (Both healthy, of course) because 1) You first have to guess the item and 2) You can guess the wrong item (What if it has Expert Belt when you thought it was Choiced? It's not like it's unviable). And both kinds of switch-ins can be quite limited thanks to its coverage (Since the only thing resembling a fast wall is Mega Latias, and it can only switch into Psyshock, this means you have to find something that is not 2HKOed, or have insane prediction skills). Otherwise, you are forced to sac something so that you can revenge kill Hoopa... which goes against the reason people pick stall to begin with (Not to mention it can backfire spectacularly if it carries an Expert Belt and used Hyperspace Fury, and you are trying to Pursuit-trap it. The horror of seeing that seemingly choice-locked Hoopa-U is staying, easily stomachs the Pursuit and OHKOes your Dark-type with Focus Miss or Drain Punch...).
Now, Hoopa-U has its nice amount of problems too. One I can find to be a reasonable argument against banning is how it constricts teambuilding for its own trainer - just as hardly anything can switch into Hoopa-U, there are hardly any things Hoopa-U can switch to that are not certain Status moves. This means it's not like certain banned Pokemon like Mega-Mence or Greninja (Which only needed things that defeated the few mons their sets couldn't get past through) or Aegislash (AKA Superglue). For starters, Hoopa-U needs at the very least a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch (Preferably a core) so that it does not take any direct damage upon switching in. Hoopa-U also hates the fact several powerful moves can OHKO it after Rocks (But not without, so a Spinner or Defogger is mandatory. Then you need your hazard setter. That's FOUR slots mostly dedicated to support Hoopa-U, leaving you with only one free slot (Which can still be dedicated with something with Wish/Healing Wish). tl;dr You cannot predict Hoopa-U's set, but you can predict its partners.
Not leaning towards anything... it's not like I think I'm good enough to see the bigger picture of what it does to the meta.
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So, I've been looking at these posts and thinking since my last post, and have come to the general consensus that it should probably be banned. As much as stall makes me want to rip my own hair out and eat it and subsequently down a glass of nitric acid to wash the hair down, I have to accept it's just as viable a playstyle as offense, or at least, it should be, like the endangered tarantulas of the Pokemon world - Not many people like them, but they're still endangered and should be protected. Why? It's too easy to support. Slap on a few pivots, some volt-turn and it's virtually guaranteed to get at least a kill a match, at worst MASSIVELY chunking a switchin. Hell, this thing can be your main offensive option on a team and it can still do work. I've seen matches where it kills FIVE POKEMON. FIVE. U-turn coming in? Just switch out to Lando and U-turn the next turn! Talonflame? Easy, just go into Rotom! It's kind of stupid that it only really needs two teammates to be at max efficiency, and I should know, I've abused this. Hell, sometimes it doesn't even NEED support! If the opponent Dracos with their Lati, or kills something with Thundurus-I, just go straight into Hoopa the next turn and get a 1for1 at worst! In some matchups, it turns those otherwise fantastic special attackers into liabilities, because the offensive teams you find them on are usually so frail that Hoopa will almost always KO something.
I built a stall team for giggles and found that, in order to not autolose to Hoopa, I HAD to run a ScarfTar, a Pokemon that doesn't really fit on stall, turning it from stall into semi-stall and being just generally constraining on teambuilding for defensive playstyles. It's not overcentralising for offense, but for defensive teams, it's almost as bad as damn Mega Kanga - Forces you to run a specific check to not autolose to it. Emphasis on CHECK (remember how +2 Crunch from MKanga could OHKO Sableye after rocks?).
Overall, I think it should be banned as it works well - too well - against all playstyles with minimal support (potentially) and is virtually guaranteed a kill, at worst hugely contributing to a kill later in the match by another sweeper, who that wall would otherwise take on. Stall isn't the only playstyle that suffers from Hoopa's presence, and as much as I love it's design, that kind of bias shouldn't stop me from recognising a clearly overpowering Pokemon.
I built a stall team for giggles and found that, in order to not autolose to Hoopa, I HAD to run a ScarfTar, a Pokemon that doesn't really fit on stall, turning it from stall into semi-stall and being just generally constraining on teambuilding for defensive playstyles. It's not overcentralising for offense, but for defensive teams, it's almost as bad as damn Mega Kanga - Forces you to run a specific check to not autolose to it. Emphasis on CHECK (remember how +2 Crunch from MKanga could OHKO Sableye after rocks?).
Overall, I think it should be banned as it works well - too well - against all playstyles with minimal support (potentially) and is virtually guaranteed a kill, at worst hugely contributing to a kill later in the match by another sweeper, who that wall would otherwise take on. Stall isn't the only playstyle that suffers from Hoopa's presence, and as much as I love it's design, that kind of bias shouldn't stop me from recognising a clearly overpowering Pokemon.
- Status