I'm starting to wonder-- what if we just tier ALL the pokes, and then make something like a "No NFE clause" in which the "traditional" no-nfe UU battle type can be preserved?
That way NFE and no-NFE both have a chance to be played . . .
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NFE Pokemon in UU
- Thread starter Phuquoph
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I'm starting to wonder-- what if we just tier ALL the pokes, and then make something like a "No NFE clause" in which the "traditional" no-nfe UU battle type can be preserved?
That way NFE and no-NFE both have a chance to be played . . .
I guess I'm just not being clear. It is late afterall...
Thats Chansey's PHYSICAL defense tier. I did take it into account already. Thats a pretty nice place to stand IMO considering there is only one weakness (fighting).
I'd say yes to Blissey.
Chansey is the 2nd best Sp. Wall statistically in the game, and it only has 5 base Defense lower than Chansey. They have virtually identical movepools, and the only reason Blissey has Ice Beam in OU is to counter the 600 dragons.
Guess what? There aren't any 600 dragons in UU. Seismic Toss Bliss was also the standard in Adv IIRC, and both have gained stealth rocks this generation.
Blissey only takes 10.8% less damage than Chansey does physically, and in Sp. Defense, I don't think anyone can 2-hit KO, even with Nasty Plot.
EDIT: As for Regice, no, Chansey wouldn't be like Regice at all. After all, Chansey isn't weak to steel, rock, and fire and Regice isn't immune to ghost. Regice also has no form of reliable recovery. Not to mention, anything that can OHKO Blissey with a fighting attack will OHKO Regice. Frankly, if you think Chansey is easily OHKOed, then Regice will be easier in both the Physical and Special Def sides due to the numerous weaknesses and reliance on rest/talk for recovery. I admit Regice has significantly better attack than Chansey, but your arguments about "easily OHKOed" can be just as easily applied (I'd argue, even easier due to the numerous weaknesses) to Regice.
Food for thought: 252/0/252 +sp. def Regice takes 3% less damage than 252/252/0 bold chansey physically, and takes 15% less damage from Sp. attacks. This "advantage" is gained while Chansey has 1 weakness, 1 resistance and a reliable form of recovery as well as status absorption with natural cure, as opposed to regice's 4 weaks and 1 resist, but better offense.
Again, I note that Regice has significantly better offense. But from a wall perspective, they're pretty damn close.
So, what is the differentiating factor that makes Chansey too powerful for UU but Blissey not for OU? I also added in a few things regarding it's physical defending in my previous post before yours.
Edit in reply to your edit: The main difference is, Regice can do something back to it's "counters", while Chansey can only switch from anything that 2hko's it or more (which is most things physically)
When I'm thinking counters, I'm thinking Close Combat Pinsir/Hitmonchan/Primape, HJK Hitmonlee, etc. etc.
All of these outrun and OHKO Regice with max HP. Both Chansey and Regice will probably T-Wave on the switch (though Chansey can sing), Chansey can lay down Stealth rocks on the switch... Hitmonlee in particular can be limber and switch in on T-Wave.
And Regice's counters are more numerous due to the huge number of weaknesses, Stone Edge Aggron OHKOs with spikes/stealth rocks support for example, and Iron Head has a chance to OHKO with Stealth Rocks support... with no items. Life Orb / Choice Band brings it into a guarentee.
I know this is a strange argument. But from what I see, whatever physical weaknesses Chansey has in UU, Regice does too, and then some.
What about the many ground types that can set up Swords dance easily on Chansey and are resistant to stealth rocks and immune to twave? Aggron also carries Focus Punch and does not need spikes or stealth rock support to OHKO blissey with that. So if Chansey predicts incorrectly, it is either 2hko'd by Stone Edge, or OHKO'd by FP.
They are definitely not immune to Sing and it's 55% accuracy. Is this the moveset you are proposing?
Chansey
Sing
T-Wave
Stealth Rocks
Softboiled
Might sound clever when you make the arguement but in reality Chansey only has 4 moveslots and regardless of what it picks, something will screw it over.
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/swordsdance.shtml
Lets see.. if by "many" you mean Sandslash, Gligar/Gliscor, Marrowak, Rhyperior, Groudon, Torterra and Garchomp (including OUs and Ubers)...
Then considering that only Sandslash, Gligar and Torterra are the only ones who can be even considered to be UU on that list... I'm pretty sure that I can readily say that three is not "many".
Sandslash, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Camerupt, Golem, Quagsire, Whiscash, (maybe) Claydol, Torterra (although I've never considered him UU), Wormadam (g) and Gastrodon. Then of course there are a number of NFE's.
Says the idiot who doesn't notice the 76 (one higher lol) special attack, the much better HP, agility, hypnosis, and a STAB air slash. It's not just a wall, it's excellent utility and somewhat powerful too.
BY THE WAY everyone
I meant NIGHT SHADE.
equivalent to seismic toss on a blissey.
Being able to sleep a pokemon and wittle it away with night shade is pretty scary.
I'm not saying that noctowl is broken, or it's amazing.
Or even that it's that good.
But COMPARITIVELY, it fares pretty well with gligar in their own respective roles. I believe as a threat to a team, a well built noctowl can be a far scarier threat to a team than gligar can.
I say we can take into account more subjective things like how fun it makes UU. Come on now, we aren't all complete idiots, and some of us are capable of making judgments.
First, the argument of "allow all NFEs or allow none" doesn't work. We don't "have" to do anything just because we did it in a completely different scenario. We're allowed to allow Pikachu because it has Light Ball but ban Grovyle because it's the same as Sceptile. We can allow Vigoroth in UU because it's not too strong but ban Chansey if we feel it's too strong.
However, my stance is that we only allow distinct Pokemon. A distinct Pokemon is a Pokemon that functions better in some way than its fully evolved counterpart. This means we do not, for example, have to allow Surskit because it has a different typing than Masquerain, because Masquerain's stats more than make up for any weaknesses and lack of STAB.
The list of NFEs that I would consider "distinct" is: Pikachu, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Trapinch, Scyther, and possibly the NFEs that have a Speed advantage, such as Onix, Electabuzz, and Magmar. Porygon2 is also a good idea for inclusion, as Trace can be a unique trait, and Porygon2 can tank, something PorygonZ cannot do. Pupitar's trait (or more accurately, lack of Sand Stream) make it play somewhat differently as far as team relations go, and STAB on Earthquake means it's actually stronger than Tyranitar's EQ. I think Pupitar is still the only DD + STAB EQ Pokemon (and thus has the strongest DD EQ).
To whomever mentioned Shelgon using Double-Edge to sweep, consider that STAB Dragon Claw has the same power as Double-Edge, hits Dragons harder than Double-Edge thanks to being SE, hits Rocks harder thanks to not being resisted, hits Ghosts harder thanks to actually hitting them, and hits Steels just as hard because both are resisted. Everything else is neutral to both, and thus is hit just as hard by both, meaning Shelgon won't use Double-Edge on anything.
To quote myself from the last topic,
To expand on my opening part about Salamence vs. Shelgon...
Almost every NFE is played exactly like its fully evolved counterpart, except there are usually even less viable strategies with them: Shelgon can't really run a devastating special set, for instance, but Salamence can. Both can use a physical set, though, so what you have is something that's essentially a watered down version of it. Salamence's higher HP and Special Defense more than makes up for its increased weakness to Ice and Rock, as well as the lack of resistance to Electric. Intimidate and more HP means it takes less from physical attacks, despite the slightly lower Defense. It only takes slightly more from Rock moves thanks to the weakness after you factor in Intimidate.
I disagree with the idea of a "grandfather clause" for Pokemon. This is a new game. What happened in the last gen is completely irrelevant. Just like it brought Forretress up to potential OU rather than BL status, and bumped Celebi, Zapdos, and Snorlax down from OU to BL, we shouldn't see how Pokemon were in UU last gen to see how they are this gen. I don't see anyone arguing about Golbat being in UU, anyway, which seems kind of hypocritical. Crobat didn't exist in RBY, and Golbat was definitely UU there...
If we look at the Pokemon without bias from previous generations, however (which is how I feel we ought to do it), we'll see that there isn't a single thing Gligar can do that Gliscor can't. There is no reason to use Togetic when Togekiss exists, so I don't see why they should be given special treatment. All non-distinct NFEs should be in the same tier as their fully evolved counterpart. We are allowed to actually use our judgment to decide where to cut things off; we do not have to accept to the slippery slope fallacy of "If we allow Scyther, we have to allow all NFEs in UU" that some people appear to suggest.
First, the argument of "allow all NFEs or allow none" doesn't work. We don't "have" to do anything just because we did it in a completely different scenario. We're allowed to allow Pikachu because it has Light Ball but ban Grovyle because it's the same as Sceptile. We can allow Vigoroth in UU because it's not too strong but ban Chansey if we feel it's too strong.
However, my stance is that we only allow distinct Pokemon. A distinct Pokemon is a Pokemon that functions better in some way than its fully evolved counterpart. This means we do not, for example, have to allow Surskit because it has a different typing than Masquerain, because Masquerain's stats more than make up for any weaknesses and lack of STAB.
The list of NFEs that I would consider "distinct" is: Pikachu, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Trapinch, Scyther, and possibly the NFEs that have a Speed advantage, such as Onix, Electabuzz, and Magmar. Porygon2 is also a good idea for inclusion, as Trace can be a unique trait, and Porygon2 can tank, something PorygonZ cannot do. Pupitar's trait (or more accurately, lack of Sand Stream) make it play somewhat differently as far as team relations go, and STAB on Earthquake means it's actually stronger than Tyranitar's EQ. I think Pupitar is still the only DD + STAB EQ Pokemon (and thus has the strongest DD EQ).
To whomever mentioned Shelgon using Double-Edge to sweep, consider that STAB Dragon Claw has the same power as Double-Edge, hits Dragons harder than Double-Edge thanks to being SE, hits Rocks harder thanks to not being resisted, hits Ghosts harder thanks to actually hitting them, and hits Steels just as hard because both are resisted. Everything else is neutral to both, and thus is hit just as hard by both, meaning Shelgon won't use Double-Edge on anything.
To quote myself from the last topic,
To expand on my opening part about Salamence vs. Shelgon...
Almost every NFE is played exactly like its fully evolved counterpart, except there are usually even less viable strategies with them: Shelgon can't really run a devastating special set, for instance, but Salamence can. Both can use a physical set, though, so what you have is something that's essentially a watered down version of it. Salamence's higher HP and Special Defense more than makes up for its increased weakness to Ice and Rock, as well as the lack of resistance to Electric. Intimidate and more HP means it takes less from physical attacks, despite the slightly lower Defense. It only takes slightly more from Rock moves thanks to the weakness after you factor in Intimidate.
I disagree with the idea of a "grandfather clause" for Pokemon. This is a new game. What happened in the last gen is completely irrelevant. Just like it brought Forretress up to potential OU rather than BL status, and bumped Celebi, Zapdos, and Snorlax down from OU to BL, we shouldn't see how Pokemon were in UU last gen to see how they are this gen. I don't see anyone arguing about Golbat being in UU, anyway, which seems kind of hypocritical. Crobat didn't exist in RBY, and Golbat was definitely UU there...
If we look at the Pokemon without bias from previous generations, however (which is how I feel we ought to do it), we'll see that there isn't a single thing Gligar can do that Gliscor can't. There is no reason to use Togetic when Togekiss exists, so I don't see why they should be given special treatment. All non-distinct NFEs should be in the same tier as their fully evolved counterpart. We are allowed to actually use our judgment to decide where to cut things off; we do not have to accept to the slippery slope fallacy of "If we allow Scyther, we have to allow all NFEs in UU" that some people appear to suggest.
What becomes of Poliwhirl then?
Not only has it two different evolutions, which might end up being in different tiers, but also has the added embarrassment of being faster than both! Should it be included in the Poliwrath tier, in the Politoed tier, on together with Electabuzz/Magmar as being different enough from its evolutions since it's faster?
Not only has it two different evolutions, which might end up being in different tiers, but also has the added embarrassment of being faster than both! Should it be included in the Poliwrath tier, in the Politoed tier, on together with Electabuzz/Magmar as being different enough from its evolutions since it's faster?
I presume it would be part of magmar/electabuzz.
Also can people stop trying to promote Chansey in UU! Not only does it play exactly the same as Blissey (which most people are against in UU), as someone mentioned, it is the 2nd best special wall in the game, and will simply turn UU purely into a physical metagame. It has no place there at all.
Also can people stop trying to promote Chansey in UU! Not only does it play exactly the same as Blissey (which most people are against in UU), as someone mentioned, it is the 2nd best special wall in the game, and will simply turn UU purely into a physical metagame. It has no place there at all.
To continue on Obi's and Dragontamer's points, a comparison.
Here's a list of all "mattering" differences between Chansey and Blissey:
- 5 HP
- 5 Atk
- 5 Def
- 40 SpAtk
- 30 SpDef
- 5 Spd
Realistically, all that matters here is the Special Attack. Their HP is so blown up that that and the Special Defense makes no realistic difference. They don't use their Speed stat at all - they're either slower, or they've paralyzed something. They don't use their Atk stat at all (oh no Chansey can't OHKO Raikou with Choice Band Adamant max Attack CH Earthquake). Which leaves us with the Special Attack. Dragontamer has kinda proved the Defense difference is rather minimal - if Chansey is "OHKOed by every physical attack in existence", then apparently Heatran and Chansey are both OHKOed by a good STAB Stone Edge or something. Except neither are.
What does Blissey use (and usually max) its Special Attack for? Dugtrio, Salamence, Garchomp, Gliscor, Gengar.
How many of those are in UU? None.
Ice Beam would presumably serve to hurt Grassers a little, to win frz wars against other last Poke Chanseys or something, hit Gligar if it's allowed, and keep Grounds from coming in for "free" (100 damage per turn is nothing to be scoffed at though).
Difference between Blissey and Chansey? Very little.
Difference between OU and UU? Enormous.
Impact of allowing Blissey in UU? Enormous.
Impact of allowing Chansey in UU? Enormous - very little = still enormous
Before you start raping the shit out of my logic (which, I shall assume, is possible)...why the hell do you want Chansey in UU anyway? As Obi said, we're trying to make the game more fun ("balaced" if you will). What fun is a stall-themed UU?
Here's a list of all "mattering" differences between Chansey and Blissey:
- 5 HP
- 5 Atk
- 5 Def
- 40 SpAtk
- 30 SpDef
- 5 Spd
Realistically, all that matters here is the Special Attack. Their HP is so blown up that that and the Special Defense makes no realistic difference. They don't use their Speed stat at all - they're either slower, or they've paralyzed something. They don't use their Atk stat at all (oh no Chansey can't OHKO Raikou with Choice Band Adamant max Attack CH Earthquake). Which leaves us with the Special Attack. Dragontamer has kinda proved the Defense difference is rather minimal - if Chansey is "OHKOed by every physical attack in existence", then apparently Heatran and Chansey are both OHKOed by a good STAB Stone Edge or something. Except neither are.
What does Blissey use (and usually max) its Special Attack for? Dugtrio, Salamence, Garchomp, Gliscor, Gengar.
How many of those are in UU? None.
Ice Beam would presumably serve to hurt Grassers a little, to win frz wars against other last Poke Chanseys or something, hit Gligar if it's allowed, and keep Grounds from coming in for "free" (100 damage per turn is nothing to be scoffed at though).
Difference between Blissey and Chansey? Very little.
Difference between OU and UU? Enormous.
Impact of allowing Blissey in UU? Enormous.
Impact of allowing Chansey in UU? Enormous - very little = still enormous
Before you start raping the shit out of my logic (which, I shall assume, is possible)...why the hell do you want Chansey in UU anyway? As Obi said, we're trying to make the game more fun ("balaced" if you will). What fun is a stall-themed UU?
Some little questions:
What's the general consensus regarding Combee and the fact that 87.5% of them are final evolutions by themselves?
Since most of them are final evolutions, should they be added to the list?
I don't even care, I'm just wondering.
What's the general consensus regarding Combee and the fact that 87.5% of them are final evolutions by themselves?
Since most of them are final evolutions, should they be added to the list?
I don't even care, I'm just wondering.
Just wanted to know if you followed the criteria on every candidate or if you only allow what you want based on what you find "fun".
This is why I think they should be allowed (barring those that would be deemed BL). For the most part, NFEs are so unviable that there's no reason (in the context of balance) for them to be banned. Furthermore, they do play differently from their evolved forms. Grovyle, for example, while having similar stat distribution to Sceptile, has 45 defense, 50 HP, and "only" 95 speed - it is significantly weaker. So if it doesn't unbalance the metagame, I see no reason why it would make UU less fun that I can use Shelgon to your Altaria.
I would agree with you if Grovyle and such became UU standards but I really don't see that happening with the ever-growing group of Pokemon that are excluded from BL and OU. If anything, UU has upped its standards thanks to the generation change and I don't really see the NFEs as having significantly improved given the fact that there are now all-new Pokemon that can be used in UU as well as old Pokemon that got bumped down from BL or OU.
Well, it may be subjective and unsupportable on just facts, but Mekkah has a point-- fun matters!!
I mean, if it weren't fun, why the hell would we even be here? O.o Moreover, if it weren't fun to play UU (because a certain damn pink bastard managed to sneak into it), why the hell would we even make UU in the first place?
I mean, if it weren't fun, why the hell would we even be here? O.o Moreover, if it weren't fun to play UU (because a certain damn pink bastard managed to sneak into it), why the hell would we even make UU in the first place?
The argument was that people were pushing aside Kadabra, Haunter, Chansey, etc as if they were too powerful for UU without even thinking about it. Honestly, no one wants them in UU, and for good reason - it would be a lot less fun. I think the arguments on Chansey were to make this point specifically. Even if it's not overpowered for UU (certainly debatable), it has no business there. Whereas the existance of Blissey can sometimes benefit OU sweepers, only a few UU pokes will be able to take advantage of getting a few stat ups off with 101+ hp subs, and not many of those want to actually switch in on it. Watch out for those scary Howl Explouds though.
By the way, I agree greatly with Obi's last post. The speedier pokemon are a toss up really, and I think only Electabuzz is worthy of consideration.
Magmar has the same ability as Magmortar as well as the same mixed attacker (with SpA higher than Atk) stats. 83 to 93 base speed isn't a big enough deal to call it 'distinct'.
Onix could have speed worth mattering, but what exactly is it going to threaten when it takes a turn to Rock Polish, even in NU? Hide your Bug/Flying Pokemon! It's more offensively retarded than Steelix, and less durable with a crappier typing. I would say it could be unique and outspeed fire types steelix can't and threaten a STAB EQ, but it's off 45 base attack, and you simply don't have the EVs to bump that very high what with the 35 base HP and having to add speed EVs to make Rock Polish useful.
Murkrow is the same animal that Honchkrow is (figuratively and literally). The extra speed really isn't doing anything for him when his best Dark attacking option is Sucker Punch anyway. He doesn't even get Night Slash to take advantage of Super Luck like Honchkrow does.
Electabuzz at least has a different ability than Electivire, Higher SpA than Atk, and the speed difference from 95 to 105 is actually huge when you consider how much more it outspeeds without needing a boost.
One final note about Porygon2: I don't know if it would be a problem in UU necessarily, but keep in mind it is pretty strong. It's certainly unique though. Trace can pull off some crazy stuff, and it's defenses + Recover are not to be underestimated. It actually may work better in OU than it does in UU though, so I'm going to withhold my judgment for now.
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