ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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Hack said:
idk where people get ideas about Lucario actually having inherent good qualities vs anything but hard stall... Which even then has to be supported correctly break up Lugia/Sab/Waterceus/Groudon. And hit Iron Tails. Yeah HO is probably Lucario's worst match up but by it's not by any means some kind of balance killer just because it actually has a match up it's not outsped by most things and OHKOd by pretty much everything else. MMX is at least faster than OP mon Darkrai, but eh it might or might not be better or worse than Lucario. I think the current rankings for the two are fine.



????

All jokes aside, Chansey should probably be placed on the list? I don't think it's necessarily worse than Blissey. People somehow act like it's still XY around these two, no one runs attacking moves or shed shell on Blissey either so like... Why do we act like it's better vs Shadow Tag (which is the one thing blacklisting Chansey)? Blissey does Snatch better (due to lefties), which is important for stall, but that kinda stall is sadly not as viable as it once was, and after exploring Chansey's options with better physical bulk I can't say that I find it unviable per se. It's definitely not the best mon but eh it's as good as Blissey at the very least.
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I agree with this. Should we at least consider it? I mean, you can play around Mega-Gengar with Pursuit support.
 
A little late but here it is:

Update List

Lugia: A+ >>> A (Below Latios)
Arceus-Rock: A- >>> B+ (Below Dialga)
Arceus-Dragon: B+ >>> A- (Above Mewtwo)
Arceus-Fairy: C+ >>> B- (Above Mega Tyranitar)
Yveltal: B+ >>> A- (Below Arceus-Dragon)
Landorus-T: B- >>> B+ (Above Skarmory)
Hoopa-Unbound: Unranked >>> D (Prone to change once the mon is figured out)
Chansey: Removed from the Blacklist - will be added after its analysis is complete

Now for the big one left out:

Mega Gengar: Moving both Lugia and Mega Gengar around this update leaves A+ with three mons. S being a bigger rank than A+ after Lugia's move is already on the strange side, so I don't feel comfortable with Mega Gengar's potential move making this gap even larger. The viability ranking is ordered by viability now anyway, so the mon being at the top of A+ is simply saying "its the next best thing in the meta after these mons above it, which at the moment are those currently in S rank", which is essentially saying the same thing as if it was moved to the bottom of S. There's no longer any criteria to base this from to make this rise more justified either. If you want Mega Gengar in S, then something has to move out of S first, OR A+ has to be larger in numbers. If you think Mega Gengar is better than Darkrai, then they would switch places in the current situation, not both be in S.

Oh and a decent amount of noms were not nominated for their exact positions, so as I said in this post, I'll be placing them based on assumptions.
 
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Hoopa-U's main niche is actually being a very potent Trick Room sweeper.
Its STAB Hyperspace Fury is unaffected by Protect and King's Shield, meaning they don't waste precious turns of Trick Room. Furthermore it has a fearsome offensive coverage, can also use Trick Room itself, or even Wonder Room in order to beat 1-vs-1 opposing Extreme Killer with Drain Punch.
Sure it needs a lot of support, but I don't think Hoopa-Unbound merits a D-Rank for the reasons above.
I have an old TR team (when Ubers ladder scores were reset) showing some ideas of the capacities of this Pokemon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-264687354
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-264720454

I tried Volcanion, and tbh it's really hard to justify its use. I don't see a better moveset than this : Assault Vest; Max attack / SpD; Gyro Ball, Flare Blitz, Explosion, Steam Eruption or Earth Power or Toxic. It can 2HKO boosted Xern, Flare Blitz a steel type, and explode on a boosting threat... And even it works mediocrely because of it's unfortunate Stealth Rocks weakness and inability to hit effectively Primals (it can otherwise check Kyurem-W's Ice Beam, great Stallbreaker Iceceus, and wall no Thunder Pogre haha)
 
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did u just post a replay vs a lead ninjask team,,, just cause a team can win a couple of games on ladder doesnt make it anymore viable COUGH deo n COUGH because ladder is full of morons.
 
I explained here why I think the best Hoopa-U set is TR. While I think it's better than a few things listed above it in D rank I also don't think it should really be much higher than C-, at least not until there is more evidence that this mon can do things.

It must have been glossed over at some point, but Cresselia is not listed anywhere despite having an analysis. I'd probably put it at the top of C+ just as like a default, but I'm really just pointing this out. Avid Cresselia users can testify as to if it belongs higher.
 
Controversial View Day! I've got some very controversial views (shocker) so I'm going to do some new mons ;). I'm suggesting a lot, but that's only cause I have spare time and I wanted to say how my VR would be like ;).

P-don to drop to S. I really don't think P-don is as good as people make out. Yes, it's versatile. But how many of its sets should be used? Rocks is good, yes, but not good enough to hold a whole rank above the rest of the meta. Things like Deoxys can set up rocks a lot more consistently, and since support P-don can only really run stabs, it falls prey to practically every levitating dragon/defogger or is forced to drop one for the more inconsistent stone edge. Also, sets like double dance and rock polish face this problem, alongside facing a lot of competition from half of the tier as a setup sweeper-doesnt DD do this better. I've probably judged it a little harsh here, and it is definitely a meta defining Mon, but is it really worth its own tier? Is it really a must on all teams? I vote no. Stall sets lack items and recovery, offensive lack coverage, almost every team runs a check to it anyway and so on. Good? Yes. Meta defining? Probably? Essential? No.

Xerneas to above Mega Mence: Simply due to less opportunity cost, no 4x weakness and a more immediate threat to teams.

Ho-oh to A+: Another way to balance the S rank, I suggest Ho-oh dropping simply due to the fact that multiple methods of hazard control is a must on Ho-oh teams. So, choosing Ho-oh kinda forces three mons on you at once. This is kinda why Talonflame isn't S in ou, but worse as Ho-oh is often a defensive Mon over offensive and feels rocks even more. Again, good but requires too much support to hit S IMO.

Kyogre and Yveltal to A: Two mons which actually define the meta, in a way. Whilst Kyogre takes on P-don, Darkrai without thunder, the holy fireceus and ground/fire types in general, has versatility in a strong set-up CM set or an incredibly bulky rest-talk which is extremely splashable on practically every playstyle, not least as it is one of the only viable water types, Kyogre is a top Mon and threat in the meta. Yveltal also has good splashability, extremely strong dark-type moves and the ability to fit on multiple playstyles. Strong priority allows it to wreck some setup sweepers, U-turn pivots, taunt stops stall, oblivion wing heals and it also beats Hoopa, which may see a rise in usage and be a potential threat to certain stall teams. Both are worthy inclusions to almost all teams, and shouldn't be underestimated.

Other things I don't have too much on:

Lando-T, Mega Kanga to A-: One is a great scarfer, the other is a strong hitter with very annoying, sash-breaking, heavy hitting, priority.

Rayquaza, Mewtwo to B+: I really don't see either of these as A rank material in the meta: Quaza always comes second to megamence to me, Mewtwo has unpredictability with its mega evos, but they aren't great, anyway, like Mewtwo. Why use over Deoxys IMO.

T-tar, Excadrill, Skarmony to B: None of these seem good enough for me-the slow setter of a mediocre weather which the weather trio beat, the abuser of it, or a meh lead and a stall bird which fails to P-don.

Darkceus and Fairyceus rise: Two good Arceus formes which need a rise ;).

MMX, Wobbuffet, Mega Lucario, Aegislash to B-: A bunch of mons never really worth using, lumped in B. Shaft them down ;).

Gothitelle to B-: A fairly good trapper, deserves to be alongside Wobbuffet.

MegaDactyl and Greninja to C: Two mediocre leads which I don't think should be used.

Mega Mawile to D: Why use this? I simply can't find a niche for it.

Enjoy! I look forward to debating them all!
 
going off what peli said you have like 0 supporting evidence for some of your noms lol
also alot of your info is just incorrect; deoxys is only really used on ho and is def less consistent than don as a rocker. don has excellent defensive/offensive stats, can run a wide range of sets, and can actually take on stuff like xern, etc. there's also few stuff that can ohko it.
as for ho-oh forcing mons on you, this isnt as restricting as you make it sound since most defoggers/bouncers pair well with ho-oh in terms of type and cc synergy regardless.
regarding pogre, it can't switch into all pdon variants, and this is really dependent on who switches in first
lando is only useful b/c of intimidate and checks pdon, it's still walled by support arceus, gira-o, lugia, etc mkang is decent but too weak to justify a mega slot much of the time imo
skarm performs good vs ho, it counters mence & checks ekiller
mega mawile actually tears apart stall
 
Sorry everyone, I kinda suck at typing :(. Anyway, here's my backup on P-don:


  • P-don to drop to S. I really don't think P-don is as good as people make out. Yes, it's versatile. But how many of its sets should be used? Rocks is good, yes, but not good enough to hold a whole rank above the rest of the meta. Things like Deoxys can set up rocks a lot more consistently, and since support P-don can only really run stabs, it falls prey to practically every levitating dragon/defogger or is forced to drop one for the more inconsistent stone edge. Also, sets like double dance and rock polish face this problem, alongside facing a lot of competition from half of the tier as a setup sweeper-doesnt DD do this better. I've probably judged it a little harsh here, and it is definitely a meta defining Mon, but is it really worth its own tier? Is it really a must on all teams? I vote no. Stall sets lack items and recovery, offensive lack coverage, almost every team runs a check to it anyway and so on. Good? Yes. Meta defining? Probably? Essential? No.
  • Expanding on the above:
  • P-don has good Def and Atk, yes. It has very good stats indeed. But it Arceus in S+ rank for its stats? No. These stats are further counteracted by the fact P-don has a decent at best movepool and must run a red orb too, which means it is crippled by Pseudo item loss from the start. Imagine how much potential it loses being item-less. In fact, I'd say that it one of its biggest holdbacks. I can't see much point in a stall Mon being "the greatest" without recovery, even from leftovers. If versatility means it can run a bunch of mediocre sets, doesn't that mean I can run band, sash or LO Terrakion? Choiced, item-less or Dark Plate Hoopa? Do people call these viable? No. So a stall Mon with 90 SPD and 100 HP is stronger than things like lugia who can, God forbid, recover actual HP? Yes, it has good def-but practically all mixed/special mons can wear it down and eventually defeat it. It this worth the title of Stall God? Things like Arceus and Sableye should have that name. Something else is P-dons middling movepool-what other Mon is forced to run mixed because it has no good physical fire-type stab? Even then, its stabs can't even hit many mons-looking at you, practically every defogger which switches in on P-don and gets a "free Defog"-especially Flygon, who also resists it's only other real coverage option, stone edge (inconsistent in its own right). Looking at you, Mega-Mence, who can get a free DD off if P-don doesn't run roar. And if it does? Welcome in loads more stuff thunder wave could stop. In a naturally fast tier, is 90 speed really that good-especially on a lead. Practically every taunter outspeeds-leaving P-don with its measly offensive moves, ready for a Giratina or the like to switch in and Defog. New threats like Whimsicott don't spell good, either as encore plus stun spore is an absolute pain to it. The things P-don checks have actually gone down in usage loads-so half of what it beats actually is almost irrelevant. On the other hand, every team and their mothers get solid G-don checks, which also happen to be strong mons in their own rights anyway. Finally, P-don has bad lead matchup. Darkrai? Sleep fodder. Deoxys? Taunt plus many hazards. Setup Sweepers? Pray you packed roar. Dozens of hazard setters exist-most of them getting refined sets to beat this Mon. It may once have been anti-meta, but the meta now seems to check it in every single way-Kyogre, Rayquaza and even Golduck can remove weather and defeat with water attacks. Itself, normal G-don (can't be used-some smal opportunity cost here), Grounceus and more have strong ground moves, flying dragons resist the best moves it can carry (and it can't really carry more than two attacks as it already needs the other slots to do its purpose and even then struggles) and the list goes on. Half of the stuff it is supposed to check-like Kyogre-have ways to deal with it anyway.
  • P-don isn't bad. It's great. But it isn't a tier above everything else. So, really, why keep it there? Drop it to S today!
 
magsyy said:
stop trying n learn the tier better then try to contribute. i stopped reading when u talked bout pdon not being S+ worthy cause it has to hold the red orb,,, nigga that shit would be banned 2 ag just like mega ray if it could an item.
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I didn't say it wasn't S+ worthy because it had no red orb. It hinders it, yes, but it only makes it drop-worthy when combined with other factors mentioned.
 
Comments on your points about Primal Groudon:
Re: Item
Imagine how much potential it loses being item-less.
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This doesn't make Primal Groudon worse, it just means it's not better than it already is. Indeed, it would be better if it could hold items but it's good enough to be a tier above S without an item, so the fact that it could be even better with an item doesn't really justify a drop.

Re: Versatility
If versatility means it can run a bunch of mediocre sets, doesn't that mean I can run band, sash or LO Terrakion?
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To call Primal Groudon's sets "mediocre" is ridiculous, and comparing Primal Groudon's versatility to Terrakion's is simply wrong. Terrakion is mostly unviable even with its best set. Primal Groudon can run support sets with a bit of versatility between Rock Slide / Lava Plume and Thunder Wave / Roar, you also get the RestTalk set which stops Xerneas and Primal Kyogre well; setup sets can run Paradancer, Rock Polish, RP+SD which has versatility in and of itself by being able to setup either (RP cleans vs offensive teams, SD breaks vs balance and other bulkier builds); even offensive Stealth Rock sets are somewhat versatile in regards to coverage moves and Swords Dance to pressure Defog users.

Re: "Stall God"
I agree that there are other great Pokemon that exist on stall. No recovery outside of Rest is an annoyance, but Primal Groudon is phenomenal for role compression and support. It's not Lugia, nor is it meant to do Lugia's job; it's not Water Arceus, nor is it meant to do Water Arceus's job. I'm also not 100% sure where you got the notion that Primal Groudon is mainly a Stall Pokemon, since it's fine for stall but it's offensive capabilities in conjunction with solid defensive attributes is what makes it so great.

Re: Movepool
Primal Groudon's movepool is not even close to bad.
what other Mon is forced to run mixed because it has no good physical stab?
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Since when does Primal Groudon lack good physical offensive STAB moves? Precipice Blades is extremely strong and even Earthquake is not too bad. Fire Punch has 75*1.5=112.5 power when boosted by sun, which is pretty solid as well. Running mixed sets is honestly more of a luxury than a necessity. Missing is annoying but that doesn't make it's movepool bad. Primal Groudon can pressures Defog users pretty well as well, thanks to Thunder Wave and even Swords Dance. Flygon is viable specifically to check Primal Groudon and that honestly says more about Primal Groudon's dominance than anything; Dragon moves do a bunch to Flygon though to be fair.

Re: Leads
Finally, P-don has bad lead matchup.
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I mean this would be a valid point if Primal Groudon was intended to be a lead every time. You often lead it because you can afford to and set Stealth Rock early, but you don't put Primal Groudon on your team because you need a lead.

Re: Easily Checked
Most teams are having to run 2 or more solid checks to Primal Groudon. That is not being easily checked. Sure, the metagame has been forced to run lots of different checks because of how dominant Primal Groudon is, but teams have always run checks to it and it's still mandatory on nearly every team.

In general there's just a lot of things that don't follow logically here, and a lot of things make me question metagame knowledge (Whimsicott being cited as an up-and-coming threat, Golduck's mention as a check). The fact of the matter is that Primal Groudon completely defines ORAS Ubers and most would argue that it is clearly a tier above the rest.
 
SuperSixFighters

There is so much wrong with your argument here I don't really know where to start. Most of this is just blatantly incorrect and ignorant of the current metagame. You can't seriously argue that a Pokemon that finds its way onto 70-80% (even higher than that in tour settings) of teams and fits on literally every playstyle could be anything but S+. It's almost like you haven't played a game of ORAS Ubers in your life, which I know isn't true, but your argument suggests otherwise because it's just so far off base from reality.

Since when is no item a serious weakness when giving it an item would boot it straight to AG with Mega Ray? Since when is sun-boosted Fire Punch from 180 Attack and STAB a bad Fire STAB? Since when is something with 180/150 offenses going mixed a bad thing? Since when does Primal Groudon forgo Rest on stall? Since when have Xerneas, Primal Kyogre, and Steel-types gone down in usage? Since when does lead Primal Groudon not being able to SR vs a Deoxys or getting slept by Darkrai matter? Your argument is entirely based on things that are either completely false or have zero bearing on Primal Groudon's viability in the metagame. There's basically nothing here to take seriously I'm afraid.

I would strongly suggest playing more in tours/ladder before making another nomination. Your views of the current metagame appear to be disturbingly unrealistic.
 
Fireburn said:
SuperSixFighters

There is so much wrong with your argument here I don't really know where to start. Most of this is just blatantly incorrect and ignorant of the current metagame. You can't seriously argue that a Pokemon that finds its way onto 70-80% (even higher than that in tour settings) of teams and fits on literally every playstyle could be anything but S+. It's almost like you haven't played a game of ORAS Ubers in your life, which I know isn't true, but your argument suggests otherwise because it's just so far off base from reality.

Since when is no item a serious weakness when giving it an item would boot it straight to AG with Mega Ray? Since when is sun-boosted Fire Punch from 180 Attack and STAB a bad Fire STAB? Since when is something with 180/150 offenses going mixed a bad thing? Since when does Primal Groudon forgo Rest on stall? Since when have Xerneas, Primal Kyogre, and Steel-types gone down in usage? Since when does lead Primal Groudon not being able to SR vs a Deoxys or getting slept by Darkrai matter? Your argument is entirely based on things that are either completely false or have zero bearing on Primal Groudon's viability in the metagame. There's basically nothing here to take seriously I'm afraid.

I would strongly suggest playing more in tours/ladder before making another nomination. Your views of the current metagame appear to be disturbingly unrealistic.
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Well, I suck at typing and everything I put tends to come out wrong so... Also haxiom, you are right (also I edited that bit about stabs to say fire stabs instead)

Anyway, I'll try to answer those questions, assuming they're not rhetorical:

No item is just a point: It was worth using, as it does make P-don worse and can damage it's potential.

Going mixed is usually inferior to not if at all possible-that 30 Atk is quite a jump. By fire stab, I wasn't saying it was weak in sun, just it missed some Kos due to base power.

I actually barely use stall, though rest kinda sucks-sleep talk is unpredictable, else you just waste two turns.

I don't think P-don really checks Kyogre or Xerneas-it can't switch in to any attacks bar Kyogres water/electric coverage. I didn't mean them, anyway.

The last one can screw you over if you mispredict.

This is kinda a shot in the dark, I admit, but I am still anti-P-don (in S+). Even if everything I've said is bad, I really don't think there's this big barrier of Viability between it and xerneas/megamence.
 
Dude, PDon can set up SR, can hit hard af even on defensive sets, and it dunks on both Xerneas and [Primal] Kyogre. If that doesn't say S+, I don't know what does. Oh yeah, it has like 9 million good sets too.
 
Peli said:
Primal Groudon is a big reason why Xerneas and Kyogre are not running rampant, saying that it is not a check to either is crazy. I'm questioning if you have ever played this tier before. Lurk more.
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Oops, I think I switched check and counter. This is why I fail at writing ;). It beats them on a free switch.
 
Everyone else has already said Pdon anything lower than it is is crazy...

But Mawile should stay in C-. Not D, its not that bad.
 
SuperSixFighters said:
Controversial View Day! I've got some very controversial views (shocker) so I'm going to do some new mons ;). I'm suggesting a lot, but that's only cause I have spare time and I wanted to say how my VR would be like ;).
P-don to drop to S. I really don't think P-don is as good as people make out. Yes, it's versatile. But how many of its sets should be used? Rocks is good, yes, but not good enough to hold a whole rank above the rest of the meta. Things like Deoxys can set up rocks a lot more consistently, and since support P-don can only really run stabs, it falls prey to practically every levitating dragon/defogger or is forced to drop one for the more inconsistent stone edge. Also, sets like double dance and rock polish face this problem, alongside facing a lot of competition from half of the tier as a setup sweeper-doesnt DD do this better. I've probably judged it a little harsh here, and it is definitely a meta defining Mon, but is it really worth its own tier? Is it really a must on all teams? I vote no. Stall sets lack items and recovery, offensive lack coverage, almost every team runs a check to it anyway and so on. Good? Yes. Meta defining? Probably? Essential? No.

Xerneas to above Mega Mence: Simply due to less opportunity cost, no 4x weakness and a more immediate threat to teams.

Ho-oh to A+: Another way to balance the S rank, I suggest Ho-oh dropping simply due to the fact that multiple methods of hazard control is a must on Ho-oh teams. So, choosing Ho-oh kinda forces three mons on you at once. This is kinda why Talonflame isn't S in ou, but worse as Ho-oh is often a defensive Mon over offensive and feels rocks even more. Again, good but requires too much support to hit S IMO.

Kyogre and Yveltal to A: Two mons which actually define the meta, in a way. Whilst Kyogre takes on P-don, Darkrai without thunder, the holy fireceus and ground/fire types in general, has versatility in a strong set-up CM set or an incredibly bulky rest-talk which is extremely splashable on practically every playstyle, not least as it is one of the only viable water types, Kyogre is a top Mon and threat in the meta. Yveltal also has good splashability, extremely strong dark-type moves and the ability to fit on multiple playstyles. Strong priority allows it to wreck some setup sweepers, U-turn pivots, taunt stops stall, oblivion wing heals and it also beats Hoopa, which may see a rise in usage and be a potential threat to certain stall teams. Both are worthy inclusions to almost all teams, and shouldn't be underestimated.

Other things I don't have too much on:

Lando-T, Mega Kanga to A-: One is a great scarfer, the other is a strong hitter with very annoying, sash-breaking, heavy hitting, priority.

Rayquaza, Mewtwo to B+: I really don't see either of these as A rank material in the meta: Quaza always comes second to megamence to me, Mewtwo has unpredictability with its mega evos, but they aren't great, anyway, like Mewtwo. Why use over Deoxys IMO.
T-tar, Excadrill, Skarmony to B: None of these seem good enough for me-the slow setter of a mediocre weather which the weather trio beat, the abuser of it, or a meh lead and a stall bird which fails to P-don.

Darkceus and Fairyceus rise: Two good Arceus formes which need a rise ;).

MMX, Wobbuffet, Mega Lucario, Aegislash to B-: A bunch of mons never really worth using, lumped in B. Shaft them down ;).

Gothitelle to B-: A fairly good trapper, deserves to be alongside Wobbuffet.

MegaDactyl and Greninja to C: Two mediocre leads which I don't think should be used.

Mega Mawile to D: Why use this? I simply can't find a niche for it.

Enjoy! I look forward to debating them all!
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Nice Joke :]
 
Your misbelief stems more from your lack of understanding in the definition of "viability;" when one Pokémon requires a placement in one of the six positions on every competitive team in a metagame, said Pokémon is, by definition, both (1) a cut in viability above every other Pokémon available and (2) grossly over-powered, deserving of a suspect test.

It is less about the inherent qualities Primal Groudon brings to the table but rather how staple its inclusion is upon any archetype, relative to every other Pokémon in the tier. This contrast is so stark that I could argue with greater ease for Primal Groudon to be placed in a rank above "S+" in a rank of its own (under Mega Rayquaza and above "S"). This is because it is just that much more necessary for any ORAS Ubers team, compared to the likes of Mega Salamence and Xerneas, to carry it, to the point where the slim dichotomy between the "S+" and "S" ranks may render the upper echelon of this list misleading to fresh eyes.

I, too, reserve a number of qualms with the current list as it is, even in the "S" rank (why is Arceus-Normal above Ho-Oh when the former can run one set and generally only fits on hyper offense, while the latter can run a myriad of effective sets to accomodate for team needs and find a placement on a much greater variety of teams on the spectrum of archetypes?), but at the same time, I do not believe that questioning the undermining of Primal Groudon's centralization provokes any substantive discussion at all.
 
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