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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
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Azumarill has Focus Punch + 101 Subs + Huge Power. Steelrocks can't do much to that. As stated before, Mantine is easily taken care of.
Summary in short:
-Snover is a horrible handicap in itself with its fragility.
-It still needs approving.
-One Pokemon will never win the day even when setup.
-Weather can be changed creating a state of finite weather leading back onto the first point.
-Other variations of Walrein are just strong but not really optimally effective.
Answer:
Walrein can be tested in UU first unless theres a sudden massive outcry for its banning due to Snover's effectiveness. NFE's if they're allowed just means there'll be another UU revision another day when certain things can be re-considered. Keep in mind its FAR more difficult to bring a BL down to UU than it is to put a UU into BL.
Underestimated its not it hits the fine line of BL/UU and chances are its probably going to BL anyway with earlier strong arguments already for it.
However just a thought but for Belly Drum variation if we're talking about Shoddy than it should be noted Aqua Jet + BD is completely illegal in game. If its any other BD than lets keep in mind as strong as it is speed comes into play (which is lower than Rampardos at that) and at half health to boot. Also for CBvariation they can really be dealt with however you'd normally deal with Choiced Pokemon anyway.
The most threatening Azumarill by far is the Subpunch variation.
You may want to add the part about it having 40 in both defenses than think about it for yourself.
And deoxysf has lower defenses, but oh wait it is an uber. You can't dismiss a pokemon's usefulness by saying it has crap defenses, especially when sharpedo's crunch is as strong as a ttar's and its waterfall as strong as a gyarados's. Have you looked at its speed? Sharpedo will be too good of a starter for UU it's not even funny. It outspeeds many things, and a choice scarf can make it worse.
@The other guy: yes, focus sash pokemon counters anything by what you're saying....so your point is?
Any fighting type with Mach Punch will take it out.
Also the fact that it is locked into a move once it has attacked means that prediction will play a key part in its defeat.
Whilst Sharpedo is good and should not be underestimated, there are bigger threats, and it will see no use whatsoever if it becomes BL, as very few people use it in UU.
*Edit*
Oh and Cacturne really should remain UU, its slower than both Absol and Honchkrow, and Sucker Punch has become way too predictable.
Also the fact that it is locked into a move once it has attacked means that prediction will play a key part in its defeat.
Whilst Sharpedo is good and should not be underestimated, there are bigger threats, and it will see no use whatsoever if it becomes BL, as very few people use it in UU.
*Edit*
Oh and Cacturne really should remain UU, its slower than both Absol and Honchkrow, and Sucker Punch has become way too predictable.
The only UUlike fighters that can mach punch are....the hitmon family, which are rarely used. So, with what exactly do you plan to switch into a 372+ stabbed crunch? Mawile? And: this doesn't matter if sharpedo will be of any use in bl or not. If a pokemon is too powerful for its own tier, it has to move up.
Pretty much any UU physical wall can switch into a Crunch with a hearty chortle, but none of them like Waterfall. Meganium/Venusaur can take both attacks fairly well and heal itself whilst killing with Giga Drain. Quagsire Water Absorbs and is 3HKO'd by Crunch, whilst STAB EQ 2HKO's Sharpedo. Walrein lols at him and can ease prediction, if not just kill him itself. Same could be applied to Blastoise.
And actually, all three Hitmons will probably be very common in UU, which leads me to point out that Hitmontop switches in with Intimidate, over 300 defence, Mach Punch and a Crunch resistance = perfect counter.
95 base speed is poor for something so frail and leaves him exposed to the plenty of UU Pokemon capable of OHKOing him without a problem.
There's nothing too powerful about him, he's just a glass cannon.
And thanks for the support with testing Pinsir, Forsety.
And actually, all three Hitmons will probably be very common in UU, which leads me to point out that Hitmontop switches in with Intimidate, over 300 defence, Mach Punch and a Crunch resistance = perfect counter.
95 base speed is poor for something so frail and leaves him exposed to the plenty of UU Pokemon capable of OHKOing him without a problem.
There's nothing too powerful about him, he's just a glass cannon.
And thanks for the support with testing Pinsir, Forsety.
First, venasaur is a bl poke. Second, cb crunch does 45% min damage to everything you mentioned except for the hitmons, which could mean that after a single layer of sr/spikes, its all 2kos.. What makes you think top will be used? It hasn't changed much since 3rd generation, and it was rare (and don't you dare say to solely counter sharpedo because that would be overcentralizing the metagame). Third, 95 base speed is not that great in OU statistics, but it is godly in UU. If things like rampardos and floatzel made it to bl, I don't see why sharpedo got left out.
Poliwrath would also make a decent counter to Sharpedo if it remains UU, resisting everything except EQ, which it can take two of comfortably.
Also, Hitmontop is a fantastic Pokemon in UU. I'd use it regularly. Technician is a huge change in itself, with 60 power Mach Punch/Pursuit, 90 power AA/Triple Kick and also 90 power Revenge without having to be hit. It wouldn't just be used to counter Sharpedo of all things.
Even without a true counter, Sharpedo isn't impossible to deal with. The CB variant can be dealt with using prediction, just like T-tar in OU, who is just as devoid of true counters there as Sharpedo is in UU, but that doesn't make it Uber. Another point to consider is that, with 40 base defenses and 70 base HP, Sharpedo is VERY difficult to switch in, which is important for a Choice Banded Pokemon. The only thing it can switch into more than once or twice maximum is Psychic attacks, which to be fair are more common in UU but it's still not that common. Even attacks it resists put quite the dent in it.
Despite gaining a lot in the D/P transition, I personally think Sharpedo deserved more. I reckon it should've got a Hitmonchan-esque ability called Sharp Fang or something, that would boost all biting attacks by 20%. Rough Skin is just such a throwaway ability for something with such crappy defenses. If anything deserved a useable new ability in D/P, it was Sharpedo.
Rampardos has about 30 more base on attack, Rock Polish, higher defenses/HP and 100 power and 150 power STAB attacks to work with.
Floatzel has 115 speed which puts it in Starmie territory, good attack, Baton Pass/Bulk Up/Agility meaning it doesn't even have to attack but can support too.
Basically what Sharpedo has gained is physical STAB and Aqua Jet, but thats still only 120 attack and 95 speed.
Floatzel has 115 speed which puts it in Starmie territory, good attack, Baton Pass/Bulk Up/Agility meaning it doesn't even have to attack but can support too.
Basically what Sharpedo has gained is physical STAB and Aqua Jet, but thats still only 120 attack and 95 speed.
Floatzel is actually a Baton Passer, and a great one at that. If not for those three gamebreaking moves, he would be UU I suspect.
And if 95 base speed is so godly, then what does that make of Ninetales, Rapidash, Scyther, Manectric, Raichu, Swellow and many others who have superior speed and moves to OHKO Sharpedo? 95 base speed is still meh.
Crunch may do around 45% to Meganium and Quagsire but both of them can recover reliably with Synthesis/Water Absorb, meaning they can counter time and time again, if neccesary, but Lemmiwinks is right in saying Poliwrath is a brilliant counter.
So if he has several reliable counters and many Pokemon can easily KO him, what exactly makes him BL?
And if 95 base speed is so godly, then what does that make of Ninetales, Rapidash, Scyther, Manectric, Raichu, Swellow and many others who have superior speed and moves to OHKO Sharpedo? 95 base speed is still meh.
Crunch may do around 45% to Meganium and Quagsire but both of them can recover reliably with Synthesis/Water Absorb, meaning they can counter time and time again, if neccesary, but Lemmiwinks is right in saying Poliwrath is a brilliant counter.
So if he has several reliable counters and many Pokemon can easily KO him, what exactly makes him BL?
Poliwrath pretty much goes LOL Sharpedo. Intimidate Hitmontop works well. Shiftry's defense ain't great but it can take Crunch and Waterfall. Sharpedo is easy to revenge kill (Hiya Manectric and Primeape) Dry Skin Toxicroak can also switch in.
Sharpedo also has the minor problem of switching in. It takes hits worse than Absol and Shiftry for cripes sake.
Seriously, will everyone please stop with the "HOW WILL YOU HANDLE MY SUB 400 ATTACK MEDIOCRE SPEED POKEMON LOCKED INTO A SINGLE ATTACK" crap?
UU's defensive pokemon include (with some under debate) Poliwrath, Hariyama, Aggron, Cloyster, Probopass, Bastiodon, Blastoise, Mantine, Hypno, Grumpig, Slowking, Meganium, Vileplume, Golem, Relicanth, Nidoqueen, Muk, Mr. Mime, Walrein, Lapras, Lanturn, Quagsire, Gastrodon, Pelipper, Torkoal, Wormadam(s), Beequeen, and Altaria.
So please, cut out the crap about CB hits being unblockable. Half the pokemon on that list have a base defensive stat over 100, some of them two, with nearly all of them having HP/Def/SDef summing above 260. This list might not be exaustive, but it covers most of them.
Shuckle is UU as well and so is Armaldo, they are both quite defensive and in Armaldo's case, can do a lot of damage in the process as well.
Heh, just for the record it's Vespiquen, not Beequeen. :P
Some of your uu's are bls, and the number of counters to sharpedo isn't as much as you are making it. I highly doubt any of the steels would dare come into an attack, fearing water and ground, and the other third is a 2ko if they switch into the wrong attack. Yes, poliwrath and top are 2 sure counters. Rampardos is in the same situation as sharpedo but it made it to bl. Floatzel can be easily as hazed as sharpedo can be countered by your standards. So what makes the 2 so different?
I dunno, ask its sp def and def stats. They are almost equally as terrible as sharpedo's. Do you think floatzel will taunt when it needs to worry about not dying? If it bps, to what can it possibly bp to that can take a hit and can't learn moves like bulk up that floatzel can? It makes more sense if you just stat boost with the bp'ed poke instead of adding a floatzel. So even it risks taunting out haze, it is still either a superfluous bper or a target
I am aware of what bulk up is, and I am sure that move does nothing to help its sp def. So, it bulk ups and then bps....to what? The bp must go to something able to take a hit (most likely a sp attack), and it must somehow beat the floatzel counter, and that is rare considering floatzel's threats are also many other's threats as well. From the looks of what you're even saying: you're defending floatzel's position solely because they said so.
Umm, but the bper floatzel doesn't really need to invest EVs in Attack since it's using Bulk Up to already boost that stat, so it just use those attacks for its defenses...
Sharpedo on the other hand NEEDS both Attack and Speed to be at their highest or it won't be able to do the one thing it does well.
Also, none of Deck Knights defensive mentions were BL. They may have been debated, but they're not BL yet.
None of the Rock/Steels that were mentioned are actually going to be KOed by Waterfall thanks to their huge defense, with both Aggron and Bastiodon being able to just Metal Burst double the damage back as well. Probopass can easily take a hit and just Thunderbolt/Thunder you to KO.
I highly doubt that you would be able to perfectly predict one of them coming in and do an Earthquake, and then if you use the wrong move, you're stuck with the Choice Bander.
I suppose it can abuse Rough Skin if it had a substitute up since Rough Skin activates even when it hits the sub, but of course a Choice Bander can't do that, and it would obviously be useless for Sharpedo since its best bet is to just attack straight on.
I really don't think Sharpedo is good enough to warrant being shoved into BL, but if something like Endure-Reversal becomes really popular, or if a physical Focus Sash user tries to attack, Rough Skin will make Sharpedo a very good choice for a team...but for now, I think I have to disagree with you on Sharpedo being too powerful for UU.
Defense Tiers @ 0/0/0 Hp/Def/Sp. Def:
Floatzel 112.51 111.77
Sharpedo 109.03 109.03
Sharpedo's kin in the defense tier scales are Ninjask, Alakazam, and Butterfree. On the Sp. Def side, he is similar to Mudkip, Treeko and Voltorb.
Floatzel's kin are Gardevoir, Noctowl, Weavile and Hitmonchan on the Physical Def side. On the Sp. Def side, he hangs around with Staraptor, Magneton and Breloom.
Are both terrible defensively? Yes. However, it is clear that Floatzel is significantly stronger than Sharpedo. In fact, the difference in tiers is comparable to Raikou vs Weavile. (~2.5 tiers). Thats quite a notable difference.
I see cloyster clearly on the bl list....though the list is still changeable, I doubt cloyster will drop to uu. Also, you're assuming the steels are facing sharpedo 1 on 1, which is unwise for the sharpedo user. A counter is something that can switch INTO a pokemon's attacks safely and either force them to switch or ko them.
Yeah, cause 120 = 135 (and CBtar will be adamant in most cases, widening the gap). Really, though...that's a moot point. The question we're asking is not "How good is it compared to OU pokes", it's "Is it overpowered in UU"?
And regarding that statement...I haven't done any calculations, but I can just tell by looking that Poliwrath beats Sharpedo up pretty badly. Many of the other UU water types (Pelipper takes 41.67% - 49.07% from a Jolly CB Crunch and can hit back with Shock Wave/HP Electric or Roost it off, a defensive Lapras takes 33.62% - 39.44% from the same Crunch and has T-bolt to hit back with) or the Hitmons (mainly Hitmontop, due to intimidate) will most likely be able to take a hit and threaten Sharpedo back. Plus, there's the matter that Sharpedo is incredibly weak defensively. It does have one immunity which could give it a chance or two to switch in, but aside from that it's going to be taking quite a bit of damage even from attacks it resists.
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