Also only 3 out of the 6 weaknesses are due from dragon typing and the bug dark and ghost weakness is from psychic. Dragon is weak to ice dragon and fairies yes psychic hinders its typing and could have been replaced with a better fighting resist like fairy or even ghost to have a better defensive typing
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)
- Thread starter bludz
- Start date
There really doesn't need to be long drawn out detailed posts to explain why Latios is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame lol, if you even play OU a little bit it should be pretty clear. Draco Meteor coming from LO Latios is one of the hardest moves to switch into in the tier, especially considering that common switch-ins such as Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Clefable can all be smacked with a coverage move, while the latter needs to be healthy to take Psyshocks. Its hella Pursuit bait, but outside of AV Metagross practically every Pursuiter in the tier needs to come in for free, otherwise they'll be taking 65% or more from Draco before being able to trap it. Its Speed tier puts it in an amazing benchmark offensively, it's strong enough to check a lot of important offensive Pokemon and it has a great movepool to complement that. Defensively its Psychic-typing is a bit of an issue, but it also allows it to check Keldeo, one of the most threatening Pokemon in OU, as well as a ton of other things thanks to its Dragon-typing, and it has just the right amount of bulk to pivot into things, and with reliable recovery it can't be worn down easily. Levitate gives you a useful Ground immunity, and its also able to provide your team with a way to remove hazards.
It's very splashable, very strong, fast, and is able to be tailored to fit your team. In a sense its got pretty much everything an offensive Pokemon can ask for, and despite certain meta trends working against it, Latios remains one of the best Pokemon because it's still able to pose as so much of a threat that it's practically one of the sole reasons Pursuit and T-tar are so damn good right now. It's honestly pretty a bitch in and a half to deal with even with Clef, Jirachi, T-tar, and Heatran being so good right now. If you really look at a lot of builds, you'll realize just how influential Latios is because of how people usually run multiple answers to it. It's just one of those low risk high reward Pokemon that usually finds itself on just about every good build.
It's very splashable, very strong, fast, and is able to be tailored to fit your team. In a sense its got pretty much everything an offensive Pokemon can ask for, and despite certain meta trends working against it, Latios remains one of the best Pokemon because it's still able to pose as so much of a threat that it's practically one of the sole reasons Pursuit and T-tar are so damn good right now. It's honestly pretty a bitch in and a half to deal with even with Clef, Jirachi, T-tar, and Heatran being so good right now. If you really look at a lot of builds, you'll realize just how influential Latios is because of how people usually run multiple answers to it. It's just one of those low risk high reward Pokemon that usually finds itself on just about every good build.
Mega metagross deserves A rank yeah. Hippowdon isn't very good right now slowbro is 2 hit KOed by thunder punch after rocks and at the moment in my opinion bulky SD mega scizor isn't all that great right now. Defensively right now its really good but offensively its not that great. Also most skarmory are sp def right now t punch 2 bit KOes after rocks and always 2 hit KOes I think without leftovers. Mega metagross also CHECKS a lot of the top threats in ORAS OU like the lati twins keldeo defensive lando T mega diancie and the biggest one: clefable
I never said that they were the best at walling keldeo I just that it could do it and if you play the meta at the moment you will know that icy wind it in decline of usage since HP bug and HP electric have more or less taken it place also use use more than one pokemon on a team in pokemon so you would just switch to something that resists it also your assuming that every keldeo is specs or LO which spec is the best set be it doest mean every set is specs
First when making this comment you should of just edited your first one in stead of making a hole new comment also how many types a typing isn't the deciding factor of weather its a good defensive type you have to consider how many types they resists as well and psychic only resists two types its self and fighting which is terrible compared to dragon that resists four types and them four being 4 of the most common types in the game water grass fire and electric.
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Dark and ground are some of the most common type moves too. Not so much electric. Fast electrics have died down a lot in popularity the only 3 electrics use right now that are good are rotom wash magnezone and thundurus I. Ground types are everywhere psychic is also kind of common too and so are steel type moves but not used as much as water and ground attacks
Guys stop beating the dead horse. We know Latios is good, what it checks, and the attributes of its typing.
Talk about one of the discussion points on the slate if anything. Should Mega Slowbro really share a rank with strong megas like Zam, Lati, etc?
Talk about one of the discussion points on the slate if anything. Should Mega Slowbro really share a rank with strong megas like Zam, Lati, etc?
I think that, at least for now, Mega Slowbro should stay put. Everyone really knows what it usually does, setting up CMs and then beating down the opposing team with attacks, but I feel that its defensive attributes that it retains over normal slowbro are often overloooked simply because Slowbro can abuse Regenerator. Yes, Mega Slowbro doesn't have regenerator, but there's really nothing saying that you can't just shuffle around a bit as regular Slowbro for a bit before Mega Evolving to net the Regenerator recovery until you're in a position to use Calm Mind. However, I don't really know if that would count as a point toward Mega Slowbro, since you are in normal form when you are shuffling around. I hope someone can clear that up for me. Anyway, I find that the biggest argument against Mega Slowbro is usually the opportunity cost of using it over another Mega since most of the time, normal Slowbro could do its job. While this often is true, Mega Slowbro still retains an important spot and works as a much better wincon than normal slowbro. I also, even with how much people hate Mega Venu right now, think that mega Slowbro is still at least on the level of Mega Venusaur. However, I feel that one of the most notable things keeping Mega Slowbro at A- is how much electric types are hurting right now. With Manectric and Thundy being less potent than before, Mega Slowbro can net setup opportunities without too much trouble. Yeah, Toxic is really annoying for it, but it's certainly not like base Slowbro enjoys it either. Mega Slowbro also is a much better check to Excadrill under sand, as it can usually OHKO with scald after a round of LO recoil and can also take +2 earthquake quite a bit better.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 247-292 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 329-387 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Definitely shouldn't be your first sand check, but it certainly is something notable.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 247-292 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 329-387 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Definitely shouldn't be your first sand check, but it certainly is something notable.
Please don't drop Zard Y.
I understand that it can really only fit on specific teams and it requires hazard removal (none of which pair particularly well with Zard Y tbh), but these are things that keep it from being S rank, not things that drop it from A-. Zard Y is easily one of the most threatening mons in the tier. It pairs extremely well with the likes of Band Tar, Suicune, and Serperior, which are all only getting better imo. It's so threatening that despite it's one-dimensional play-style, I still think it's worthy of A-. It's definitely a thoroughly viable Pokemon, and it's ranking should reflect this.
I understand that it can really only fit on specific teams and it requires hazard removal (none of which pair particularly well with Zard Y tbh), but these are things that keep it from being S rank, not things that drop it from A-. Zard Y is easily one of the most threatening mons in the tier. It pairs extremely well with the likes of Band Tar, Suicune, and Serperior, which are all only getting better imo. It's so threatening that despite it's one-dimensional play-style, I still think it's worthy of A-. It's definitely a thoroughly viable Pokemon, and it's ranking should reflect this.
The lati twins pair very well with zard Y being able to switch into electric attacks and water attacks while zard Y takes on and checks steel types for the lati twins and zard Y also checks fairies (in particular clefable) for Latios and zard Y also checks heatran for the lati twins so there are good hazard removers for zard Y. Also excadrill pairs well with zard Y if excadrill is sand rush. Zard Y checks grass ground and bulky waters such as slowbro tangrowth rotom wash and skarmory and steel types who are immune or resist excadrill EQ while excadrill checks fast electrics as well as rock types for zard Y and also checks heatran too. Excadrill also checks sp def talonflame for zard Y and also kind of some what checks the lati twins but chople berry tyranitar or scarf/band tar already does it better then excadrill anyways
Mega Slowbro is amazing right now with offensive teams being so popular. I generally use it less as a wall and more as a wallbreaker, capable of beating its counters like M-Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Chansey w/o Toxic, Magic Guard Clefable, Latios, and Latias. Once said Pokemon are knocked out or weakened, it is easy for others to clean up. Also, it is easy to set up on Pokemon who think they can wear down Slowbro with special attacks, only finding out too late that they are set up bait (those Scald spammers). It's a boost that one of the most common super effective attacks forces the user to switch out. Volt Switch is a mistake for Electric-types when facing M-Slowbro. Rotom-W and Mega Manectric coming in on a Calm Mind get one super effective attack off and then have to switch to something that maybe cannot do much damage to M-Slowbro. By the time that Electric-type gets back in, hopefully for Slowbro it has amassed enough Calm Minds to make Volt Switch not that damaging.
Going through the viability list, the number of common Toxic users is slim towards the top. Possibly Lopunny, Heatran, or Garchomp at A, Gliscor at A-, Chansey at B+, but that's really not a lot of Pokemon, allowing M-Slowbro to thrive. That being said I could see M-Slowbro staying at A- or moving up to A. The difference doesn't seem that big to me and is very team dependent. Generally though, I'd say M-Slowbro is a more likely wincon than most of A- barring perhaps Serperior, M-Pinsir, and Thundurus.
Going through the viability list, the number of common Toxic users is slim towards the top. Possibly Lopunny, Heatran, or Garchomp at A, Gliscor at A-, Chansey at B+, but that's really not a lot of Pokemon, allowing M-Slowbro to thrive. That being said I could see M-Slowbro staying at A- or moving up to A. The difference doesn't seem that big to me and is very team dependent. Generally though, I'd say M-Slowbro is a more likely wincon than most of A- barring perhaps Serperior, M-Pinsir, and Thundurus.
Btw after playing a bit with slowking I definitely think it should rise to B+ it's a very good wincon and it has quite a few nifty things about it like checking Diancie, Keldeo, and Volcanion all of which are fucking everywhere rn.
As for mega bro, imo no way in hell should this thing even skim B rank. It's honestly the scariest wincon in the entire tier and every time I see one start to panic thinking "shit how the fuck do I break this thing". Once this thing starts boosting it's terrifying to stop like it's almost like a "click toxic or click x" situation and it makes you feel so powerless. If anything imo this beast should rise.
As for mega bro, imo no way in hell should this thing even skim B rank. It's honestly the scariest wincon in the entire tier and every time I see one start to panic thinking "shit how the fuck do I break this thing". Once this thing starts boosting it's terrifying to stop like it's almost like a "click toxic or click x" situation and it makes you feel so powerless. If anything imo this beast should rise.
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-04/moveset/ou-1825.txt
I don't really care if the collective opinion of the OU forum is that it is a bad set but I wouldn't say the most popular item on Talonflame is "not a relevant set".
Quite well said. Now that electrik types are starting to be rare, it just made Mega bruh's life better. Bar Serperior, there isnt a lot of Grass types that can break through Bro once he gained a few boosts, and one is probably enough. It is so dam bulky, and is as mentioned, a scary wincon. As for Dark types, the majority of them can also be handled by bro (and receives reduced damage from Knock Off) since his base physical def skyrockets. Mega Bro should actually rise imo, it is as good as its normal cousin at what it has to do.
I'm not sure how usage stats are weighted, but I'd take this with a grain of salt - anybody who has played high ladder has definitely come across some guy named empoleonlove, who spams xtrashine's HO team like all the time (like seriously, I've never seen a dude with a higher battle count, it's like in the thousands this dude probably plays 30 battles a day).
If you look hard enough, you can see how this impact the stats:
1) EVERY MON ON THE TEAM HAS THE OTHER FIVE MEMBERS LISTED AS ITS FIVE MOST COMMON TEAMMATES LOL
2) Dragonite and Azelf have higher usage than shit like Breloom, Kyurem-B, and even essential stall 'mons such as Quagsire... and we all know how common stall is on high ladder.
3) Excadrill's most common set is apparently Choice Scarf... it's more widely used than the next four common items put together.
It's thus not hard to imagine that CB is bound to be more common than Leftovers on Talonflame, specifically because of this one player/team. But yeah, I agree while it's certainly not the best set it's a bit much to call it completely irrelevant.
Also, regarding Mega Slowbro... idk, I find that shit so underwhelming. Like it seems so scary but then shit like Rotom-W can literally 1v1 it and keep it in revenge kill range by burning, then constantly volt switching/pain splitting like lol. Also, we live in a wallbreaker meta (although Mega Slowbro does counter Mcham nicely) so it's not likely to get a lot of setup opportunities.
I feel like CM/Double Dance Mega Slowbro is not good in the meta right now, especially due to losing Regenerator and the increased prevalence of spike-stacking and Pursuit trapping (even though MegaBro laughs off Pursuit from anything that's not BandTar), but Offensive MegaBro sets (Slack Off and some combination of Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Scald/Psyshock) are where it's actually at: you still retain monstrous physical bulk, but you can dent things harder now with your great coverage and decent (base 130, but no boosting item) SpA.
Given that, I don't think MegaBro should drop to B, but metagame trends right now are unfavorable enough that a drop to B+ might be warranted.
Given that, I don't think MegaBro should drop to B, but metagame trends right now are unfavorable enough that a drop to B+ might be warranted.
I think its fine whereat is rn there are still a lot of things that threaten and check it like Manaphy serp Breloom clef and some others. Its really good at checking most of the physical attacker in ORAS OU but there are a lot of things that it cant check and set up on and I trink that's the reason its not the best mega. Its common checks also are very hard to wear down and even check like Manaphy and serp. I cant think of any others since I just woke up a couple of minutes ago and im on my phone so I cant check but its fine where it is and has a place in the meta game. Very underrated and unprepared mega like mega metagross
Yeah it doesn't have many set up opportunities youre right. You kinda have to let something die and I then let it come in and set up. It can set up on some good or common threats but not many. Not to mention that a lot of special attackers that are some what common threaten it especially manaphy we also live in a meta game where bulky grass types are everywhere and rising in popularity. With not many set up opportunities and with good coverage slack off and base 130 sp atk I would also agree that the 3 attacks set is really good and might be the better set since it doesn't have to rely on a set up that requires a lot of support and hardly has the right or good time to set up
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I don't think anyone is defending double dance bro as a great set lol.
Slowbro does not lose Regenerator until it decides to mega mid to late game in order to initiate a sweep. The rest of this is also applicable to normal bro but I don't see you nomming that for a drop. I'm not particularly a fan of offensive MBro and it feels like a waste of a perfectly good mega slot to me tbh. You give up a lot of bulk and become specially frail af with it. The amazing resilience mega bro provides is part of what makes it good imo.
Last time I checked mega slowbro literally sets up on mons like kyube and weavile so idrk where you're getting the idea that it struggles to find setup opportunities. Rotom is a problem but not every team is packing one even if it is quite common and you have 5 other team slots. You can easily use something like clef alongside it which uses rotom as setup bait as well as eating up status.
D!fficult basically summed up my opinion. I guess the right way to frame it would be "not a particularly relevant set." If you wanna count that one team as making it relevant so be it, but it's extremely lackluster and tough to justify on most teams. BTW if you truly believe it's a particularly relevant set then you should probably make a full argument instead of nitpicking half of my sentence with what is essentially a one liner.
Edit: like yeah I don't really see what this has to do with ranking mons' viability, just seems like you disagree with me on a minor point
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Serperior: A- --> A
Honestly, this thing is such a menace right now. I'm mostly speaking on behalf on its SubSeed/SubGlare sets, which are, in my opinion, the best sets to be running in the meta right now. There's so much to like about this mon right now; it takes advantage of the biggest threats in the metagame in Keldeo, Rotom-W, Lando, Diancie, and can break past Clef and once it gets on a roll it even breaks past Scizor, Tyranitar, Azu; you get the point. The best thing about Serperior is that its checks either involve mons that have to be switched in and take either Leech Seed or Glare and get crippled such as Heatran or Torn. The only other way to easily check it is by revenging it with either of these two or mons like Lati/Weavile, showing that it has done its job well. The rise in bulky waters which Serp has no trouble dealing with in Slowbro, Slowking, Gastro makes its job easier. It's hardest counter in Amoonguss is still fairly common, and Mega Lati is a huge annoyance if not running Dragon Pulse, but a lot of its other hard checks in Talonflame and M-Venu have not been as common as of late. The rise in Physdef Tangrowth as opposed to AV make it even easier for Serperior to break past opposing teams. This is simply a huge threat that is able to steamroll through teams not entirely prepared for it right now, and it should absolutely rise to A rank.
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Yeah it doesn't have many set up opportunities youre right. You kinda have to let something die and I then let it come in and set up. It can set up on some good or common threats but not many. Not to mention that a lot of special attackers that are some what common threaten it especially manaphy we also live in a meta game where bulky grass types are everywhere and rising in popularity. With not many set up opportunities and with good coverage slack off and base 130 sp atk I would also agree that the 3 attacks set is really good and might be the better set since it doesn't have to rely on a set up that requires a lot of support and hardly has the rig
Only problem about serp is that it just invites torn T in lol. Other then that it also sets up or even checks manaphy and the sub seed set is very good against stall and a lot of its checks and switch Ins right now are worn down easily except torn T
Serperior: A- --> A
Honestly, this thing is such a menace right now. I'm mostly speaking on behalf on its SubSeed/SubGlare sets, which are, in my opinion, the best sets to be running in the meta right now. There's so much to like about this mon right now; it takes advantage of the biggest threats in the metagame in Keldeo, Rotom-W, Lando, Diancie, and can break past Clef and once it gets on a roll it even breaks past Scizor, Tyranitar, Azu; you get the point. The best thing about Serperior is that its checks either involve mons that have to be switched in and take either Leech Seed or Glare and get crippled such as Heatran or Torn. The only other way to easily check it is by revenging it with either of these two or mons like Lati/Weavile, showing that it has done its job well. The rise in bulky waters which Serp has no trouble dealing with in Slowbro, Slowking, Gastro makes its job easier. It's hardest counter in Amoonguss is still fairly common, and Mega Lati is a huge annoyance if not running Dragon Pulse, but a lot of its other hard checks in Talonflame and M-Venu have not been as common as of late. The rise in Physdef Tangrowth as opposed to AV make it even easier for Serperior to break past opposing teams. This is simply a huge threat that is able to steamroll through teams not entirely prepared for it right now, and it should absolutely rise to A rank.
A- ---> B+.
This would be one of my last picks for an offensive fairy. Diance is a better offensive fairy with it's better speed and more useful secondary stab. Choice BAND Azurmaril an knock holes into teams better than this without eating a mega slot. For a middling speed tier mega this doesn't hit quite as hard as it would like to, which is a problem with the metagame becoming bulkier and harder hitting.
If garde drops it shouldnt be for most of those reasons. Gardevoir has quite a few niches over azumarill and i honestly dont even think theyre comparable. 100 isnt a middling speed tier, its quite decent honestly. and its a wallbreaker so lol idk where you get the idea that it doesnt hit hard. It hits much harder than diancie and diancie's secondary stab doesnt actually help it break fairy resists. Garde is quite the nightmare for fatter teams so im not really understanding your points.
A- ---> B+.
This would be one of my last picks for an offensive fairy. Diance is a better offensive fairy with it's better speed and more useful secondary stab. Choice BAND Azurmaril an knock holes into teams better than this without eating a mega slot. For a middling speed tier mega this doesn't hit quite as hard as it would like to, which is a problem with the metagame becoming bulkier and harder hitting.
Quick note on Mega Bro: He's one of like 2 megas (Gyarados-M being the other) that I feel the base form's viability should also be considered as a benefit to the Mega. The reason I say this is because you do not have to evolve either before you start your sweep. In a lot of teams I've included Bro-M in, he's my long term standard Slowbro wall until I mega evolve. All I miss out on is leftovers, and realistically that's not bad for bro because you even avoid knock off damage in some cases.
To say mega bro 'loses regenerator' is just to me not using him correctly. If you need the extra bulk, fine I understand. However most of the time base bro is strong enough to allow Bro to pivot until sweeping. When you want to threaten a win is the only time I'd suggest mega evolving there, and when bro is planning to stick in for the long run is when Mega Bro is really good. In short, I feel most cases with Mega Bro, you should be running him in base for as a pivot until you change the slot to become a sweeper/wincon.
To say mega bro 'loses regenerator' is just to me not using him correctly. If you need the extra bulk, fine I understand. However most of the time base bro is strong enough to allow Bro to pivot until sweeping. When you want to threaten a win is the only time I'd suggest mega evolving there, and when bro is planning to stick in for the long run is when Mega Bro is really good. In short, I feel most cases with Mega Bro, you should be running him in base for as a pivot until you change the slot to become a sweeper/wincon.
Sorry about my one liner, I couldn't see the picture, or any indication of a picture. I am on mobile. Anyway, Gardevoir is by no means outclassed by any of these Pokémon that you mentioned. Mega Diancie does have a few things over it, but the rock typing hurts her a lot, and Gardevoirs Hyper Voice hits much harder than Moonblast from Diancie. Gardevoir is IMO a much scarier Pokémon than both Diancie and Azumarril, because very few Pokémon capable of KOing her can even switch in safely. Pixilate HV is such an absurdly painful attack to take, and there is always the risk of switching into a Focus Blast or Wisp and getting crippled. I think that the Pokémon you mentioned are totally different from Gard in the roles they play and thus not comparable. Keep Mega Gard in A-.
A- ---> B+.
This would be one of my last picks for an offensive fairy. Diance is a better offensive fairy with it's better speed and more useful secondary stab. Choice BAND Azurmaril an knock holes into teams better than this without eating a mega slot. For a middling speed tier mega this doesn't hit quite as hard as it would like to, which is a problem with the metagame becoming bulkier and harder hitting.
the most powerful skill in the game is the ability to induce yellow magic onto the opponent. serp has glare which gives it the ability to turn into a yellow magician and force torn-t to be paralysed. i think what crystalram has said is extremely true. despite the fact that serp starts off soft due to it's low special attack, its ability to consistently wear down what other mons need removed is simply amazing. i've been using the subseed set a lot right now and i think it really helps that it's cool speed tier tackles a lot of the top tier threats at the moment esp since that bulky offence / balance as an archetype is on the rise. i'd say yes to moving serp up to A rank. it's about time!